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First Move with Julia Chatterley

NATO: Missile that hit Poland was Likely Fired by Ukraine; NATO & Poland: Missile Incident was Likely an Accident; Donald Trump Launches Re- Election Bid in Florida; U.S. October Retail Sales top Expectations; Buy now, Pay Later Market Forecast to hit $3.68T by 2020; Musk Begins Testimony in Tesla Pay Case. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired November 16, 2022 - 09:00   ET




JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Julie Chatterley in New York and we begin with new developments following the missile strike in Poland.

According to a preliminary analysis by NATO the incident was likely caused by a Ukrainian Air Defense Missile fire to defend against Russian cruise

missile attacks. It struck a village near the border with Ukraine on Tuesday and two people lost their lives.

The Ukrainian Air Force is saying it will do everything it can to assist with the investigation. Russia denies all responsibility but NATO Secretary

General Jens Stoltenberg says the blame lies entirely with Moscow.


JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: Our preliminary analysis suggests that the incident was likely caused by a Ukrainian air defense missile

fired to defend Ukrainian territory against Russian cruise missile attacks. But let me be clear, this is not Ukraine's fault. Russia bears ultimate

responsibility, as it continues its illegal war against Ukraine.


CHATTERLEY: During Russia's missile barrage on Tuesday, Ukrainian officials say they shut down most of the 13 missiles aimed at the Lviv region which

is next to the Polish border. Speaking in the last hour, the U.S. Defense Secretary said Washington understands the context of what happened.


LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: While Russia continues to ruthlessly target Ukraine, civilians and energy infrastructure, nations of goodwill

continue to stand behind Ukraine in Russia as cruelty only strengthens our resolve. As President Biden has made clear, the United States will support

Ukraine for as long as it takes.


CHATTERLEY: CNN's Senior International Correspondent, Sam Kiley is in Kryvyi Rih, Ukraine for us now. Sam, the investigations do continue. But

all evidence at this stage in signs indicates what a tragic mistake was in this case. But I think the bigger picture here is the Secretary General of

NATO pointed out was this wouldn't be happening if there weren't an illegal war taking place in Ukraine at this moment.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Julia. And that is really the position now being struck by the Ukrainian

authorities are saying that they're going to cooperate fully, as you might imagine, they would with the investigations being conducted by the Polish

and other NATO allies. They also say that they are using what they know words, obsolete Soviet era anti-aircraft missiles, notably, the S300, which

is a pretty primitive. Originally 1970s type missile with a pretty big warhead capable of hitting things over long range, but also, nothing as

sophisticated as the modern equivalents would be.

Now they haven't drawn the link directly. But it's implicit in there essentially saying, look, if you give us a better kit, these kinds of

accidents wouldn't happen. They're also stressing that the City of Lviv came under at least 13 cruise missile attacks from Russia. Russia has and

that is a city as you know, Julia on pretty much on the border with Poland.

The Russian position is that they were not conducting military operations near anywhere near the Polish border. So that is a flat out untruth, we

know that three of those missiles in Lviv did get through the air defenses. But it could be around that area the Ukrainians are now accepting that they

fired an anti-aircraft missile that either hit or then collapsed into hit an incoming Russian missile.

And then the debris collapsed into Poland or perhaps it missed entirely. That is a kind of detail that they'll be working out. But they're not

saying any more that it wasn't as much less what President Zelenskyy said yesterday, which was that they were Russian missiles.

So clarity is now forming. And I think in the future, what this will actually result in is more understanding of the scale of the storm of

missiles that keeps hitting Ukraine targeted at civilian infrastructure, as Secretary Austin pointed out. And again, as he pointed out the need for

more sophisticated 21st century counters batteries to take them on, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, as you quite rightly said, and what we're hearing now from the United States is that Ukrainian officials had told them that they tried

to intercept a Russian missile in that timeframe and in that area. So that points further to some what you're saying in this situation and what we're

really hearing from NATO and others. And to your point, though, I think the perhaps the biggest surprise has given the geography and given the limited

weaponry that we're talking about that something like this hasn't happened before and perhaps the size of relief today a NATO HQ.


CHATTERLEY: This appears to be what we're seeing given for all the reasons and the differences here that Poland is a NATO member. And there was, I

think real caution, real fear last night in the immediacy of this would be, in that case, a dramatic escalation.

KILEY: Yes, the doomsday scenario which mercifully nobody has come anywhere close to. But he's niggling in the way at back of everybody's mind is that;

for example, Poland is very important lithium most important logistical support base for the Ukrainian war effort. Enormous amounts of civilian and

no doubt secret Military material comes in and out across its borders, along borders into Ukraine.

So if conceivably, there had been an attempt to strike at one of these locations deliberately by Russia that would be a massive escalation. Russia

has not hinted at any stage that it might do that. But that is something that inevitably niggles people's mind.

It is, I think, great relief all round, notwithstanding the tragic loss of life inside Poland, that essentially the finger of blame, if you like, of

accident, points in the direction of Kyiv, and not in Moscow, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, important context. Sam Kiley, great to have you with us, as always! Now, Matthew Chance is on the scene in Poland with more on the

investigation too. Matthew, clearly the investigation will continue. But as Sam was saying there, Poland, still dealing with a tragedy and dealing with

the fear that perhaps something like this could happen again.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, it was a real kind of shock, I think, not just to the Polish authorities who have

put their military on a higher state of alert. And we're seeing a lot of military in the area, right now being deployed to this this border area,

but also for the local community as well. I mean, you know, I spoke to a number of the residents here, who were affected by this, they obviously

heard the light explosion, it shook the windows of their houses.

And they knew, of course, the two men, the two farmers who were killed in this sort of landing of this missile, in terms of the investigation is

still ongoing. We're not permitted to go any closer than this point here. So it's a one street town, and the Police have blocked off that street.

So we can't actually get to the place where this incident took place. But there are experts on the ground were told specialists trying to

forensically piece together exactly what happened. So they can say with a high degree of certainty, where the missile came from.

But already, according to the Polish Prime Minister's office and they released a statement about this. They're saying the materials they've

gathered there from the scene indicates that this was a Ukrainian Air Defense interceptor missile, that successfully struck a Russian missile at

the time, of course when, yesterday when Ukraine was under ferocious bombardment by dozens of Russian missiles at any given moment.

And so you can see within that context, how, you know, it's still very tragic, still very a lot of anxiety here because of that. But we've stepped

back from that point where the world was on edge, when it was a possibility that the Kremlin could have ordered a strike of some kind on a NATO country

that does not now seem to be what's being considered.

CHATTERLEY: No, and you raise a great point, Matthew. But we've just been showing our viewers some of the damage there that we can see on the border.

And I sort of go back to my initial thought, and my initial question to you, which was for the people that are living there, now, realizing that

given the geography of the given of the situation of the kind of weaponry that we're talking about.

And the imprecise nature of it in these kinds of conditions what are they saying to you about the fear that perhaps this could happen again but

beyond the shocking circumstances of it happening now, in the first place.

CHANCE: I mean I think people here are very frightened Indeed. I mean, it's terrifying, I mean, the idea that this, I mean, they're not at war in

Poland, remember, they're there. They're close to the border of Western Ukraine.

But really a long way away from where the majority of the fighting is taking place. And, of course, you know, this is the first time that Poland

has been struck in this way. You know, the war has spilled over into Polish territory in this way.

And so it is shocking you remember, the people who were killed were farmers out, you know, doing their work in this quite remote farm. And there's

nothing really around here. As I said earlier, it's a one street town doesn't really have a shop in it even. There are a couple of houses on a


And that's it, and they were just going about their ordinary business when suddenly out of the blue out of the sky. They were hit by this dismissal,

which killed them both and cause untold damage to the property as well. And so yes, very, very concerning a lot of anxiety not just here, but around

Poland as well about this offense.


CHATTERLEY: Matthew, good to have you with us thank you Matthew Chance there. OK let's bring in CNN Military Analyst and Former NATO Supreme

Allied Commander General Wesley Clark. General Clark, great to have you with us, as you are no doubt hearing there it does. And all the signs are

pointing to just a terrible tragedy here but the ripple effect and the consequences vast.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right, but I think well, first of all, of course, everyone has enormous sympathy for Poland, and

especially for the families of those two men who were killed. But this is just what happens in conflict. Some missiles will go astray, the Ukrainians

are doing everything they can to protect themselves, they do have a lot of older equipment. We don't know exactly why the missile went astray at this

point. We don't know if it actually had physical contact was a Russian cruise missile and was deflected, whether the electronics were bad, whether

there was jamming in it. We just don't know. I'm sure the Ukrainians are going to work with NATO and try to resolve these issues.

But the point is, as long as that conflict goes on, there's always the possibility of accidents. It's also the possibility that at some point, Mr.

Putin will decide to escalate. And what he should have learned from this incident, even though it was an accident, and it wasn't a Russian missile.

Is it NATO is on alert. NATO is resolute. NATO can come together instantly. And he or not mess with NATO.

CHATTERLEY: Does there need to be a more concerted response in your mind from NATO? We heard from the Secretary General earlier today saying,

ultimately, the blame does lie with Moscow and Russia's illegal war in Ukraine. But is there a more concerted response? And I use the word

carefully required at this moment?

CLARK: Well, I think one of the things that could be looking at in this case is where exactly is the air defense anti-missile coverage inside

Poland? So air defenses like this are there around vital areas, so they wouldn't be defending supply routes, airbase and so forth, as is our

correspondent observed, there's really nothing in this area. Perhaps some of these NATO air assets, polish or assets do need to be moved up closer to

the border to prevent something like this happening again.

Could that be done? Well, let's for the people who were on the inside of the military. And look at the range bands and electronics and deployments

to make those kinds of decisions. But it does point out the fact that there's no such thing as just a total umbrella of protection against this

sort of thing.

CHATTERLEY: The German Defense Ministry has said today already that they're offering support to the Polish airspace to help Police Polish airspace. And

they could start as early as tomorrow, just in your mind and given your experience and understanding. Do you think that would make sense even if

it's just to provide reassurance to the Polish people at this moment?

CLARK: I think the more assets that can be provided there, the more assurance there is. But these air defense assets; first of all, it's never

been a real strength of NATO. NATO has always relied on its air forces, and its offensive air capability, rather than its defensive missiles strength

to protect itself.

So this is an area in which the alliances are relatively deficient. So these assets have to be produced, they have to be organized; they have to

be pushed forward. And that's been one of the most difficult challenges for Secretary Austin and the other people who are doing this during this


There's just not a lot of these sophisticated air defense systems that are available. And to try to put more there means nations giving up what they

consider essential. So it's a tough challenge.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think these changes, the calculation and the calculus, exactly to your point on providing more sophisticated defense systems?

Because as Sam Kiley was just saying to us, we have a geographical situation here with their breakthrough in Kherson.

And we have Military capabilities in that the Ukrainians do continue to use less sophisticated Soviet Air weaponry. So as far as NATO is, is

considering even given the lack of availability. Do you think it changes the calculus on providing more were available?

CLARK: I think NATO already knows they've got to provide more specific capabilities. And just in the last few days their Hawk air defense system

has been announced as being brought in Ukraine. It's not there yet, I don't believe. But Spain has come to ease the United States Marine Corps has some

of these, but they're relatively obsolescent system.

Also, they haven't been updated to 21st century electronics and so forth, because this really hasn't been traditionally NATO's concern. So I think

the larger issue that comes out of this is how long is this going to go on? And what are we going to end it?


CLARK: And as President Zelenskyy yesterday said the conditions for end aid are Russia needs to pull back. So we've got to put more pressure on and

that includes more military systems Ukraine if Russia doesn't want to pull back, but the Ukrainians forced them back through their military actions.

That's the way to end this and reduce the risks.

CHATTERLEY: General Wesley Clark great to get your insight sir and then thank you as always for your service will speak again soon. Coming up on

"First Move" resuming climate talks the world's biggest greenhouse gas emitters say dialogue has resumed.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boosters and ignition and liftoff of Artemis one.


CHATTERLEY: Yes, mission to the Moon, NASA gets the Artemis one rocket off the launch pad all the details, next.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", on updating our top story today. NATO Chief Jens Stoltenberg saying the missile that landed inside Poland on

Tuesday, and killing two civilians was most likely a Ukrainian Air Defense rocket that flew off course. No evidence that this was an intended attack

on the part of Moscow. But a serious turn in the Ukraine crisis nonetheless.

These are the first deaths inside a NATO nation that can be directly tied to the ongoing conflict and war in Ukraine. And as you would expect

cautious as a result across global markets as investors assess this latest geopolitical test U.S. futures and European stocks in the red at this

moment the DOW losing a lot of its gains late in the session on Tuesday when word of that missile strike first surfaced and the major averages

still closing higher however, thanks to another encouraging U.S. inflation read.

Inflation still going the wrong way though in the United Kingdom consumer prices there rising at a 41 year high of 11.1 percent in October that's

much worse than anticipated rising inflation of course directly tied to the global energy crisis triggered by Russia's aggression in Ukraine the UK

government will be pressured to do more to help people when it releases its long delayed budget statement tomorrow and we will have all the details on

that for you when we get it for now, though, to the fight against global warming.


CHATTERLEY: And U.S. Climate Envoy John Kerry says the world's two top polluters have resumed talking about climate change three months after

China's suspended those negotiations. And David McKenzie joins us now. David, I actually spoke to John Kerry about this when the last talks took

place in the Summer Davos. And they were really trying what does it mean in practice, though, in terms of tackling climate change, just to have the two

talking once again?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it's hugely important. And as you say, John Kerry confirming to CNN that those

talks have formally started, we were in the meetings a few days ago. And even then there were some informal talks between the Chief Climate Envoy of

the U.S. and his Chinese counterpart. But now that has become formal. And it's important because as you mentioned, it's the world's two biggest


But, you know, policy experts I've spoken to over the last few weeks say that it's important that China and the U.S. are working together and to be

seen to be working together by other nations, because it can take a leadership role we saw in Glasgow. There was a surprise agreement when it

came to emissions by the two countries. And already you're seeing this have an effect you had President elect, Villa da Silva of Brazil, having a

meeting with both the U.S. and Chinese Climate Envoy today.

And it is important to the talks, though it's just the first step. The next step is significant agreements between the two nations. There is some sense

that cooperation is important, but also competition when it comes to pushing through innovations on green energy, and particularly a wind and

solar power by the two nations. At this point, though, there are no concrete agreements coming out of these meetings in Egypt, we will wait to

see if that actually materializes by the end of this week.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, well, at least, the United States has sort of thrown down the gauntlet now in the misnamed inflation Reduction Act, because they have

at least put a lot of money towards this focus then, which was a different story back in May. David McKenzie we shall see, thank you. And moving on

the third time was the charm for NASA.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four stage it did start three, two, one boosters in ignition, and lift off of Artemis one, we rise together back to the moon

and beyond.


CHATTERLEY: The Artemis one rocket is on its way to the moon after a successful launch. Two previous attempts failed because of technical issues

and a hurricane. And Kristin Fisher joins us now from the Kennedy Space Station.

I believe that was two hurricanes, two months and a whole host of fixes too. I'm wondering now how the three mannequins and the Snoopy soft toy are

doing a board because of course there are no humans going up there this time.

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Julia, let's hope they're doing pretty well, because the next time this rocket launches,

there should be four astronauts on board. This is just the beginning of the Artemis program. And so you know, hopefully what we're going to see is a

very successful Artemis one mission.

We're going to watch as this spacecraft gets closer to the moon over the next several days coming within about 60 miles of the surface of the moon.

Then it's going to orbit out just a little bit farther, farther than any other spacecraft designed to carry humans has ever flown before making its

way back to Earth testing out that all important heat shield to make sure that it is safe for the high temperatures on re-entry that someday. Future

Astronauts inside are going to have to endure.

But Julia, what a launch it was a spectacular night launch. Not at the most convenient time for everybody here in the United States happening shortly

before 2 am in the morning Eastern Time, but because it was so dark out. You really got to appreciate how powerful this rocket truly was.

I mean, it lit up the entire nights does night sky it almost looked like daylight. It was that bright. Not to mention you just heard this incredible

crackle and you could feel like this sonic wave as it you know kind of shook someone's they shook the ground, but it kind of shook your chest.

You could feel the vibrations inside of you. So it was a spectacular launch. I'm just I can't believe it actually launched and NASA breathing a

huge sigh of relief this morning that the Artemis program is officially on its way.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and I'm officially jealous - just jealous great to be there. Kristin Fisher, thank you so much for that. Now from a moon mission

rocket launch to a well telegraphed campaign launch. Former President Donald Trump as expected, throwing his Maga hat into the ring for a third

time Tuesday night at an event held at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida. Trump trying to be the first U.S. president since the late 1800s. To win a

second term after losing a re-election bid. Trump's saying the U.S. has suffered since he left office and that Americans need him back.



DONALD TRUMP, 45TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Under our leadership, we're a great and glorious nation something you haven't heard for quite a long period of

time. We were a strong nation and importantly we were a free nation. But now we are a nation in decline. We are a failing nation. For millions of

Americans, the past two years under Joe Biden have been a time of pain, hardship, anxiety and despair.


CHATTERLEY: Trump's re-election bid faces sizeable hurdles due to the poor performance of his handpicked candidates in the U.S. midterm elections,

which has caused many former backers to pull their support including the Republican Party's so two of the largest donors. OK, still to come. We're

live from Brussels with more on the missile that killed two people in Poland. Stay with us more to come.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", with the latest developments following a missile strike on a Polish village on Tuesday. NATO Secretary

General Jens Stoltenberg said it was likely that Ukrainian forces fired the rocket that killed two people. Poland's President said there was no

indication the missile was a deliberate attack on the country, and that it was probably an accident.

Russia in the meantime blames Ukraine saying it was a deliberate provocation in order to escalate the situation. Polish authorities are

investigating. Melissa Bell joins us now from Brussels.

And Melissa, we heard from the NATO Secretary General earlier today. And he suggested that all the signs, at least at this stage in the investigation

will continue that this was a tragic mistake. But that the ultimate blame lies with the perpetrators of the war in Ukraine and that blame lies with


MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Julia. And that's been the message from at so many here at NATO Headquarters throughout the day, ever

since that meeting with Ambassador started to that press conference and on to the virtual meeting that's being chaired by the American Defense

Secretary that was a planned meeting of Ukraine contact NATO group.


BELL: But of course, Lloyd Austin began by speaking about the events in Poland and the lessons that needed to be drawn. And that is the point,

Julia, that everyone's been at pains to repeat that were there no, had there not been the extraordinary and extensive bombing of several Ukrainian

cities and districts on Tuesday night.

Of course, this would not have happened, but you're quite right. Those preliminary investigations suggested this was a Ukrainian air defense

missile that was aimed at trying to intercept one of the Russian cruise missiles that had been launched against Western Ukraine on Tuesday night.

Now, it was a very swift preliminary result that was given because of course of all that is at stake. Poland making it clear from last night that

they were thinking of invoking Article IV which obliges NATO members to come around for discussions with the fear that that could have led on to

Article V, the very quick escalation that that would have represented of course, is what is behind not just Jen Stoltenberg, very quick announcement

of that preliminary conclusion, but also his very calm and measured words?

And that was what was needed right now. He said, the NATO allies function together and remain calm. But of course, Julia, this also does expose some

of those divisions inside of NATO that we've seen since this war began, with those closest to the borders of Ukraine and Russia calling once again,

for the sort of defense system as sort of no fly zone over Ukraine that they've been calling for, for many months.

Germany, batting that back and again, each NATO allies, depending on their geography, depending on their history, also taking different positions in

terms of how much further NATO needs to go to prevent these sorts of tragic incidents from happening again, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: It's such an important question. Melissa, just from being there in the conversations that you're having. Do you think these events change

the calculation whether it's the provision of more sophisticated weaponry?

We've obviously had the German Defense Minister come out and say, look, we'll help Poland police its airspace, we can start tomorrow with necessary

that there's clearly changes and people looking at how they can bolster supporting confidence. But in the end, it's Ukraine fighting this war, and

they're doing so alone, even with supportive NATO weaponry?

BELL: That's right. And I think what it does too Julia, to your question is really encourage NATO members to go further in what they're giving Ukraine.

That's certainly something we've been hearing here over the course of the day.

There is very little more that NATO wants to do as a block, there is always this fear of escalating antagonizing further, and it's been very cautious

about that from the start. But what we have heard and we heard this from Lloyd Austin earlier on in his preliminary remarks that virtual meeting of

the Ukraine contract group was that it was important to help Ukraine now bolster its air defenses.

And if anything, the last 24 hours in the attacks of last night had been a reminder of just how desperately Ukraine needs those defense systems. Lloyd

Austin explaining that since the last time the contact group had met, several countries have come forward and said they were hoping and had

decided to do just that give Ukraine more air defense systems, and that he hoped that more would follow suit.

So I think once it is NATO can't really go very much further than it has. It does focus the minds and encourage perhaps those who hadn't so far

chosen to go as far as to deliver those sophisticated weapon systems were enough of them to Ukraine to go that big further.

It was certainly a reminder of just how high the stakes are Julia and how close Europe is to all this? This is what's been at stake and the fear for

so many over the course of the last few months that this is so many NATO countries on the very border of a war that has gone on for now nearly nine

months with all of the dangers of mistakes miscalculations that brings with it.

CHATTERLEY: Such an important point an awful tragedy in Poland now on top of the tragedy that we see in Ukraine. Melissa Bell, thank you for that.

We're back after this stay with CNN.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! U.S. stocks are up and running on this Wednesday. And there's a cautious fear as you would expect as NATO

officials continue their probe into Tuesday's deadly missile strike in Poland. NATO Head Jens Stoltenberg saying there is no indication this was a

deliberate Russian attack. It's most likely a Ukraine Air Defense Missile that went off course.

Also out this Wednesday fresh U.S. economic data just released numbers showing retail sales up a stronger than expected 1.3 percent in October

with sales gains pretty much across the board.

Some retailers however, still struggling giving us a sense of its Target completely missing the target reporting a Q3 profit drop of around 50

percent and warning of a week holiday period ahead.

Target see shoppers have further pulled back on spending in recent weeks amid ongoing costs of living pressures. That kind of story should be

beneficial to our next guest. Zilch is one of the newest players in the "Buy Now Pay Later" market.

Last year, the global Buy Now Pay Later market was worth $132 billion. It's now estimated by some to grow to two point sorry $3.6 trillion by 2030.

Zilch allows customers to sign up for a virtual MasterCard that can be used anywhere that accepts MasterCard brand.

The company says it past 3 million users this month. And although based in the UK, it's made its first venture into the U.S. in May. And joining us

now is Philip Belamant. He's the CEO of Zilch. Philip, fantastic to have you on the show! I do love the name Zilch but just explain what makes you

different from others and other players in this space?

PHILIP BELAMANT, CEO ZILCH: Julia, great to see you. Fundamentally, what we talking about with Zilch is rarely the Google action of payment. And I say

that humbly. I actually stole that from one of our investors.

But really what we're doing that's quite unique is that you find that a lot of these BNPL companies, these buttons you see on the checkout page,

they're really selling cash to retail customers at the checkout page. It's a commodity to rise to zero.

Our model is fundamentally different. We're really focusing on how you disrupt commerce. So you think about it today. You've got a whole lot of

brands that paid billions of dollars in advertising to get in front of us you and I as customers.

We finally go buy something and then we paid billions of dollars in interest to credit card companies. And what we're doing at Zilch is we

effectively circumventing all of this right?

So we taking ad dollars from brands each and every time our customers spend, and we passing it back to customers in the form of free credit at 0

percent APR, deals, discounts, rewards, and of course savings.

And so what you find is that customers use us more than anything else. We've raised to 3 million in just 24 months, which is pretty phenomenal. We

excited about that. And it's really because customers are looking for deals they want value each and every time they pay. I don't think any of us have

gotten real value out of payments, probably for the last two decades.

CHATTERLEY: OK, so what you have to explain the interest rate credit part of this. My understanding is and this is the offering to the consumer, if

you pay now you get a little piece of cash back so you save a bit on the price. If you decide to use the zero interest option then you can pay in

four increments over six weeks, is that correct?

BELAMANT: That's exactly right. So what we're offering is the best of debit the best of credit all bundled into one. And effectively how are we doing

that is really that we are taking advertising dollars from brands. So if you think about the ad world today let's quickly talk about that, right?


BELAMANT: It's going to reach a trillion in the next couple of years per annum. What's interesting thing that no one wants to talk about this is

between 150 to 200 billion every year is going to click farms fraud, et cetera. No one's talking about that.

And the problem is brands are pouring this money in. And it's really not converting very well for them. Introduced now, Apple, Cookieless, Tracking

et cetera and that's getting even more difficult for brands to convert sales.

So brands really want to pay for successful sales. And this is what we're doing at Zilch. We're going to brands and saying, hey, guys, you know,

we've got this huge, massive audience. It's swelling, it's growing, and it's doubling every six months.

Do you want access to this audience? And we can actually bring you real sales, forget this click fraud, forget this cost per 1000 impressions in

CPC. This is real sales we are bringing you and we circumvent that we solve that problem for brands.

And so customers, what do they get out of it? What our customers get? They actually get the fact that we will take that ad revenue and use it to cover

the cost of the credit for the customer. So customers getting free credit, or they're getting cash backs and deals.

CHATTERLEY: Which makes perfect sense to me? What happens if they don't pay the money back in the six weeks because it relies on you having customers

that have good enough credit that they want to perhaps spread the cost over a pay day or a monthly payday if that's the case or weekly, which also is

quite beneficial.

But they have to pay the money back at the end of the six weeks. What happens if they don't? Philip does it cost you? Tell me about

delinquencies? What kind of delinquencies you already have, particularly as we head into a slower economic environment?

BELAMANT: It's a great question. I was going to mention the economic environment specifically. So you know, really our delinquencies run at less

than 1.5 percent, just as a figure on pride. So we're pretty proud of that.

But the real trick is how we are managing to do that? So traditional lenders and credit card companies, as you'll know, I mean, you've been

covering this space for some time, you've seen all of this happen.

And really what they do is they squeeze the top of the funnel. In other words, they look at your FICO score, or they look at your credit experience

score, and they take a standing still view of what you can afford, which, you know, we find to be pretty bizarre.

That's like looking at a company and saying what you did today in sales and revenue? OK, that's how we'll judge you forever. What we do though, is we

actually link open banking, we do an affordability check. But we also look at open banking.

And so we look into your account, and we understand the trajectory that you're on. Are you on an upward trajectory or downward trajectory? Have you

just lost your job, but you actually had a good FICO, you had a bad FICO, but you just got a new job.

And we take all of that into consideration, not just one time when you apply for our product, but each and every time you use the product. So we

pride ourselves on how accurate we are at predicting whether or not you can repay that really is down to us.

And so actually, if we see our customers struggling to repay, we almost take that personally, we consider this to be our fault. And so we really

give customers a huge variety of optionality in how they could cure their position? They can snooze for free. They could time shift all of the

installments for free to align with paydays.

And it's really down to us getting that affordability right not just once, but each and every time. And that's what we are discovering to be the

secret here. That's why we seeing customers return and use us as much as they are at such a low default rate.

CHATTERLEY: OK. I love the idea that you provide flexibility that you do this dynamic snapshot of someone's sort of credit profile each time they

decide to spend. But Philip, how long before you consider someone delinquent then after that six weeks, and even with this sort of

flexibility that you're providing how long?

BELAMANT: So basically, what we have is we have different areas, obviously law is different. So if we look at the U.S., but different to the UK. In

the UK, as an example, we'll give customers 90 days past the point that they owe the money back. And they'll have a variety of optionality in that.

So they of course, could complain to the ombudsman. They could reach out to us and tell us they're in financial distress, we will actually provide them

services to help them with this. They could set up payment plans. So they have 90 days to cure themselves in their position.

If they do so then they lose access to the product. So right now, we don't pass this over to a debt collection agency. We don't do any of that. We

actually just say, you know, you had this product, it's the most empowering way to pay, you're getting value each and every time you use us and you've

lost the right to use the product.

And that really is what happens after the 90 day period. So customers really do have a tremendous amount of time to cure themselves or change the

position or get in touch and reschedule payments if that's what they need.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's fascinating. I barely scratched the surface. Come back on again soon, please. Because I have more questions for you,

including just sort of name recognition and brand recognition as well relative to competitors, which I think is an interesting question, but I

shall save it for the future.


CHATTERLEY: Thank you for your time and great to chat to you. But Belamant there the CEO of Zilch I still love the name Zilch. Stay with CNN more

after this.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! And the mission to tackle energy poverty leaders in Africa gathering to discuss how to help the hundreds of

millions of people who still don't have access to electricity. CNN's Eleni Giokos reports in today's "Connecting Africa".


ELENI GIOKOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): We're gathered for energy week. And I think you know listening to the opening statements, everyone is

talking about the energy deficit on the continent that 600 million Africans don't have access to stable and reliable safe electricity. How are you

viewing this dilemma?

TAELO MOJAPELO, CEO, BP SOUTHERN, AFRICA: It's quite clear that Africa has an energy deficit. In fact, you probably only have about 12 percent of

Africa's population that have access to electricity, which is actually quite a tragedy.

Now, if you look at the energy sources that we have. We've got an abundance of various energy sources. Currently, our largest energy source at the

moment is coal. And as we know, coal from a carbon emissions perspective is quite high.

We also have access to an abundance of solar and abundance of wind energy, as well as nuclear. And, you know now we do see the emergence of LNG gas,

which we do see as a transition gas.

GIOKOS (on camera): I want to talk about LNG, how quickly can we transition away from things that we've become very accustomed to I call?

MOJAPELO: LNG is imminent, it is here. And, you know, there is a lot of work and a lot of projects that are on the go on LNG, and particularly if

you look at Africa, in Mauritania and Senegal, for example, BP, we have got projects that we have. There is some work as well, on the Horn of Africa

along in Egypt as well. There is some work around gas.

And if you look at the southern basin as well, there are many companies that are actually exploring, making sure that they put in the right

resources to explore for LNG because it's an important transition guests.

GIOKOS (on camera): Do you believe that Africa can help solve some of the world's global energy issues and deficits just by de facto our production

capacity, which we are yet to fulfill, but we have this potential?

MOJAPELO: Absolutely. If you look at the current crisis, now that's playing out in Europe, it presents a perfect opportunity for Africa to be a major

player in the gas industry, and not only in the gas, but also in the oil industry.

But as you know, we've been speaking about gas as a transition images source. And we believe that, you know, the African continent is well placed

to participate and we need to just create enabling environment for corporate to be able to participate.



CHATTERLEY: OK, let's move on. Elon Musk laying down the law at Twitter; Musk saying in an email those employees must commit by the end of tomorrow

to "Extreme hardcore work or leave the company". Musk's ultimatum yet another example of his unconventional shoot from the hip management style

or this is the world's richest man begins testimony in a court case tied to his Tesla pay package.

Clare Sebastian joins us now. Never a dull moment for Elon Musk. So this is a case of get hardcore or get out and he's speaking I believe, at the same

time now in court to defend that pay packet too?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, pretty busy time Julia, for Elon Musk defending his pay package at Tesla against accusations that he didn't

need it to be incentivized to run the company and that he wasn't doing enough that work there anyway.

And meanwhile giving Twitter employees a deadline of 5 pm Eastern tomorrow Thursday to click on a link to say they agree to the terms in this memo

that there'll be working long hours at high intensity that anything less than exceptional will be considered failure in this company.

Of course, we've seen how Elon Musk acts as a leader over the course of his time, at Twitter at SpaceX and his other ventures. But I think Julia all of

this really begs the question of just exactly how his leadership style will translate to his work at Twitter? Take a look.


ELON MUSK, CEO, TWITTER: I mean I'm really working at the absolute most amounts that I can work from morning till night, seven days a week.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): Speaking from a room which he said had lost power, Elon Musk detailing the impact of his new power as Twitter's owner and CEO,

MUSK: I have too much work on my plate that is for sure.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): Touting his personal work ethic then telling staff at Twitter in a memo shortly after they need to commit to "Extremely hard

core work or leave" fits a pattern for Musk.

MUSK: Last time - you're actually stepped literally on the floor because the couch is too narrow.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): In 2018 he told CBS News, he had been sleeping in his California factory while trying to fix production problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is pushing people to a limit beyond what most of us would consider fair if you look Basket, Tesla and SpaceX. What he is asking

people to accomplish under tight deadlines is something we don't even know technically possible.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): To say Musk is a culture shock for Twitter's staff, the half of them that he did not fire would be an understatement having

mandated 40 hours a week in the office for Tesla staff this June.

He has now canceled much of Twitter's work from home policy, which just eight months ago allowed employees to work from home forever if they

wanted. Musk seems to thrive on disruption, promising to "Do a lot of dumb things at Twitter in the first few months". And some would argue already


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Its mania missed with chaos. It's just it's hard to imagine where it goes from here.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): Others argue Twitter a company that took 12 years to turn an annual profit might benefit from Musk's brand of


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to remember that Musk comes from a culture of SpaceX where he built in the culture there that is acceptable for our $100

million rocket to explode and you can move on and build another one the next day. If you come from that kind of environment messing up a checkmark

on Twitter is honestly not as big a deal I think from their eyes.

MUSK: It's very important to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): Beyond the pay case. Musk is a leader known for his desire to change the world. And we're having some success doing it.

MUSK: Well, I think it's very important for there to be an inclusive Arena for free speech.

SEBASTIAN (voice over): His vision for Twitter, a company he tried to back out of buying may prove his most divisive yet.


SEBASTIAN: So it's interesting Julia, in that memo that he sent to Twitter staff overnight. He also said he wanted the company to be more engineering

driven, mainly run by people who write great code. I think we've seen some of the engineering so far with the antics around the blue check mark. It

will be interesting to see how he wants to re-engineer the platform going forward?

CHATTERLEY: Yes, you know, I love that comment, though, that the gentleman made in that piece where he said, you know, he's not afraid to take risks,

and he's not afraid to fail. And he'll pick himself up effectively the next day and get going again.

And you know, some people might say that's the definition of a good leader. What's he saying to defend his Pay Packet? Because I know you've been

listening into this. And that's all we can do. I believe just listen in.

SEBASTIAN: Yes, we can just listen to the audio in court. It's really just got underway. But it's interesting how in the context of what's happening

at Twitter that's really sheds light on sort of him as a CEO as a leader.

He's been asked about the situation that Tesla was in 2017. He said they were in a really difficult situation. He said he actually agreed with some

of the market predictions that bankruptcy was really an option. You know that he's already told staff at Twitter that bankruptcy is an option there

as well. He likes to talk about potential failure when he takes on projects like this.

Interesting as well, his view of the role as a CEO because one of the sorts of complaints from the plaintiff in this case is that he was sort of

spending too much time and his other companies not devoting enough time to Tesla. He said that he didn't really see the role of the CEO as someone who

is involved in the day to day running of the company.


SEBASTIAN: He is himself more, as engineer who developing technology that he is responsible for the technology. So we're getting some inside there,

but of course as well define is relationship with number of the board. The other accusation is he perhaps tried too hard push through this massive 50

billion plus package and had too cozy relationship there. So it's still going on Julia, we'll keep listening to what has to say.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. And we will bring that our viewers as we get it. Fascinating person irrespective of what you think of him, love or hate

fascinating individual. Clare Sebastian, we'll keep talking about that it no doubt, thank you for that.

And that's it for the show. If you've missed any of our interviews today, they will be on my Twitter and Instagram pages you can search for

@jchatterleycnn. In the meantime "Connect the World" is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.