Return to Transcripts main page

First Move with Julia Chatterley

Bolsonaro Returns to Brazil after Months in the U.S.; Taiwanese Leader's Stopover in U.S. Infuriates China; AI Pioneer: We need to agree on how to Protect the Public; Disney Quietly Takes Power from Florida Governor's Board; Asteroid Mining Firm Prepares for First Space Mission; Britain's King Charles Visits Germany. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired March 30, 2023 - 09:00   ET




JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to "First Move", as always great to be with you this Thursday on our top stories this hour

include an American journalist arrested in Russia. A war reporter for The Wall Street Journal, Evan Gershkovich is being accused of espionage.

Russia alleges he was collecting information about the country's military industrial complex. The Wall Street Journal denies the allegations. We'll

take you to Moscow for the very latest momentarily. Plus, Pope Francis hospitalized. The Vatican says the pontiff is suffering from a respiratory


The latest two on his health just ahead and some of the biggest names in tech including Elon Musk, raising the alarm on artificial intelligence

they're calling for a six-month pause at least on powerful AI system development. We'll speak to a man known as one of the godfathers of AI who

also signed that letter and from an AI pause to Wall Street applause.

U.S. futures looking to add to Wednesday's near 2 percent gains for the tech heavy NASDAQ, Amazon, Meta and Netflix the outperformance. I think

they're continuing to benefit from lower interest rate rise expectations. And on the other side of the Atlantic, as you can see there in the bottom

row stocks over in Europe making gains too across in Asia.

Alibaba's 6 ways split still getting a salute helping the HANG SENG rise over half a percent in Thursday's session. And China's new Premier Li Qiang

saying he's confident the world's second largest economy will hit growth targets this year. We're talking around 5 percent for contact.

So plenty of news to get to as always, and we begin today in Rome. The Vatican says Pope Francis's condition is improving after a good night's

sleep in hospital. The pontiff is receiving care for respiratory infection, as I mentioned. Barbie Nadeau joins us live now from Rome. Barbie, what

more do we know about his health?

BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, we know that the Vatican said that he did have a peaceful night. You know, yesterday, he went into the hospital,

they told us originally for some scheduled checks. And then they found this respiratory infection. Of course, this is important because he's missing

half of one of his lungs something that happened when he was a young man.

So he is a little bit compromised when it comes to the respiratory tract. But you know, we're heading into Easter, this is the most important week

here in Rome and for the Catholic Church. And for the Pope, he should be celebrating Palm Sunday Mass this coming Sunday.

If he's in the hospital for a couple of days that may look kind of like it might not happen. We don't know, we haven't been told anything about that.

But the whole Holy Week, Easter week leading up to next Sunday, the Pope makes many, many appearances, public appearances.

There are many pilgrims who come to Rome to see him. And so we're you know, we're waiting to see hoping of course, obviously that he has some kind of

quick recovery. So that he can celebrate this all important Catholic holiday, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: As you said, it's an arduous schedule over that period, in particular, just we hope he's back to full health and is able to do that.

But what happens if he's not?

NADEAU: Well, there's a whole system in place, obviously, if the Pope is sick, or something else happens. I mean, the Vatican is a fine oiled

machine that's been doing this for a long, long time. You know, John Paul, the second died in April 2005. It was right after Easter, but it was still

sort of the same kind of, you know, the same time of the year and everything goes off without a hitch.

You know, plans are certainly in place. But you know people are really worried about him about his health. You know, two years ago, he had colon

surgery; he's in a wheelchair now because of pain in his knee. But yet, you know, he's still traveling all over the world.

He just went to Africa. He was in Canada earlier or late last year, I should say. And, you know, these trips are very, very important to him. And

when you see a man that strong without much stamina sort of stopped like this in hospital, it really does give you pause.

And I think a lot of people are concerned like you wouldn't be for a grandparent or an elderly parent or something like that. He's 86 years old

and so everybody's got there you know, hopes that he'll make a recovery, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, fingers crossed for his recovery. Barbie, great to have you! Thank you for joining us there from Rome. Now Brazil's President Jair

Bolsonaro back home after months spent in the United States. Moments ago with the far right Former Leader addressed his supporters, take a listen.


JAIR BOLSONARO, FORMER BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT: They won't do whatever they want with the future of our nation. Today, I love being here with you. I'm

sure you will drive Brazil to a safe harbor and it's with immense pride that I return.



CHATTERLEY: Before he landed, Bolsonaro said he would not lead the opposition party on his return. He has never formally conceded the election

and filed a petition contesting that result. That petition was rejected by the country's electoral court. Stefano Pozzebon joins us now.

Stefano, I think context on that comment was important. He said the government is the opposition in itself, didn't he? So not quite denying

that he won't lead the opposition? What kind of reception? Do you think he will get not just today but beyond?

STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Yes, Julia, I mean, we are outside the headquarters of the liberal party where Bolsonaro entered about a couple of

hours ago. He was inside that building with the talk that the address that he made it to the members of the party that you introduced there and right


There are still a lot of expectations, because Jair says you asked what kind of how he will use his political capital now that he's back in the

country is the biggest question? Apart from the fact that most of the people behind my back haven't been able to see him yet since he arrived in

Brazil this morning.

At the same time, they wonder how he will lead. What he will do because that's why he said he does not intend to lead the opposition? But while

speaking to the members of the party less than an hour ago, he said that he is confident that they will keep the current government in check.

And that's because they have the biggest number of Congressmen in Congress, just to give a little bit of a bigger picture. Bolsonaro comes back to

Brazil after three months of staying in the United States, he never formally conceded defeater, and he left the country before President Luiz

Inacio Lula da Silva two hour.

He stayed in Florida met with members of the right wing of the Republican Party, as well as leaders of angelical leaders and religious leaders in the

U.S. And now he comes back at both as a political leader, but also facing a number of investigations that span from somewhere that almost look trivial,

like whether he took personal gifts.

For example, from Saudi Arabia that he received as Head of State and he should have relinquished when he left office, but also very, very serious

investigations about his handling of COVID-19 there and his role in the January 8 riots here in Brasilia earlier this year.

So there is a lot of expectation, there's a lot of uncertainty about what it will mean and how he's returned will impact the dynamic of this country

for the short term. Most of the people here are saying that they will stay for the rest of the day trying to see what they consider is their rightful

leader, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, Stefano Pozzebon, great to have you with us, thank you. And now to Russia, where an American journalist has been arrested and

stands accused of spying. The Kremlin's Federal Security Service claims Evan Gershkovich of; The Wall Street Journal was trying to collect secret

information about Russia's Military industrial complex.

The Wall Street Journal denies the allegations and is urging Russia to release him. Matthew Chance joins us now from Moscow. Matthew, great to

have you with us! What more do we know about the events that led to his arrest and even where he is now?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know a lot about the events that led to his arrest that we've got is the

statement from the FSB, which is of course the successor organization to the KGB. And they say they picked him up in Yekaterinburg, which is a city

about 1100 miles 1800 kilometers or so, from Moscow, where he was caught.

They say trying to get secret information about Russia's Military industrial complex that they weren't any more specific than that. But they

said he was sent by the American side as they called it on a mission to get that information where he is now? Well, he's been brought to Moscow.

There's been video appear of him on local media channels you know, attending this courthouse or arriving at this courthouse at the --, which

is a prominent sort of prison complex and court facility in Moscow. And the press service of that court facility has sort of issued some statements

over the past few minutes.

I've got them here in front of me. One of them saying is that they've designated his case top secret. They said that Evan Gershkovich does not

admit guilt. And so he's been in this courtroom being arraigned and they've decided to as a measure of restraint. They should detain him in a pretrial

detention center.

And they've set the time of May the 29th. He's been detained until May the 29th. So that's one month and 29 days from now that Evan Gershkovich, The

Wall Street Journal Reporter who has been arrested on charges of espionage will now be held in a pretrial detention center here in Moscow, waiting the

start of what the court says will be a top secret trial.


Now obviously, Julia, there's been huge pushback from The Wall Street Journal. They say that they vehemently denied the allegations against the

reporter and they've called for his immediate release, as I understand it. We haven't had a statement yet from the U.S. State Department or the White

House, but we are expecting that soon.

CHATTERLEY: And what about if he's found guilty of this, Matthew? I guess the chances of acquittal another question, but what are the consequences in

Russia if found guilty?

CHANCE: Well, I mean, Russian courts have a worryingly good record, if you want to call it that of all the prosecutors have a worryingly good record

of getting convictions. It's in the high 90s percent, that the cases that are brought to courts get convictions, and in a case like this.

I think, you know, we'll have to wait and see, but obviously, this is an immensely serious offense that he's accused of, and it carries a prison

sentence of up to 20 years, which is obviously horrific for Evan Gershkovich. There's already an American in prison here facing as well on

having been convicted of espionage Paul Whelan.

Of course, he was detained in December 2018, sentenced to 16 years. But I think it's interesting because, you know, this is the first American

journalist, the first journalists that I'm aware of, at least since the Soviet days that has been accused and detained on espionage charges. And so

it shows how Russia has taken potentially a very dark turn.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, out of the past. Matthew Chance, thank you for joining us there from Moscow. OK, let's get the view now from the White House. So

CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now. Jeremy, I'm sure there's a scramble there going on to just understand exactly what happened here and get more


But as Matthew was discussing there, perhaps the immediate fear is yet another negotiating chip just months after the release of Brittney Griner,

of course, the basketball player.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right. And this is obviously extremely concerning, because it comes at a moment of

extremely heightened tensions between the United States and Russia of course, stemming in large part from Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The U.S., of course, has led the global coalition to support Ukraine and severely sanction Russia and issue that Evan Gershkovich was reporting on

just days ago. We do not yet have an official statement yet from the White House in the State Department. But what I can tell you is that White House

officials have been working to try and get more information about Gershkovich's arrest.

In fact, State Department Officials began tracking news of his arrest yesterday before it actually even became public. That's according to two

U.S. Officials. Now, what's going to come next is going to be pretty important. In particular, on the U.S. side, we know that U.S. has new tools

based on a law that was passed in 2020.

The Levinson Act to address the situation of hostage taking and wrongfully detained Americans so the U.S. would have to formally determine over the

coming weeks whether or not they consider Evan Gershkovich, to be wrongfully detained.

Obviously, we don't have a ton of facts yet about exactly what he's being accused of beyond this allegation of spying, but the Wall Street Journal

itself has vehemently denied those allegations. And we know of course, that Russia has a track record of putting up these trumped up false charges

against foreign citizens, including American citizens.

Now, there's also the question of what this means for Paul Whelan going forward because we know that the U.S. had tried to secure his release

alongside the release of Brittney Griner back in December, in exchange for the convicted Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout.

In the end, Russia only agreed to a one for one swap between Bout and Brittney Griner. So now you have not one but two Americans detained on

espionage charges. Paul Whelan of course was convicted to 16 years in prison. We will see if Evan Gershkovich faces a similar fate. But of

course, very, very concerning and something that's going to head right to the top of President Biden's desk today.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, Jeremy Diamond, thank you for joining us that from the White House and any further comments or developments we will bring them to

you the moment we get them. For now, China is warning it will "resolutely fight back" if Taiwan's President meets with the U.S. House Speaker Kevin

McCarthy during his stopover in the United States.

There's been no official confirmation such a meeting will take place but it is considered likely. President Tsai Ing-wen is not in the U.S. on an

official visit, but rather on her way to a diplomatic mission to Guatemala and Belize. Marc Stewart is following the story for us.

The President coming to New York and lauding the relationship with the United States saying actually the two had never been closer can't help but

draw the parallel between the relationship between China and the United States which you could argue perhaps have never been more distant.


MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And the question now is Julia what will happen to this relationship based on for what we have been hearing from

Beijing over the last few days. There are certainly questions about repercussions. One aspect that comes to mind is the trip that Secretary of

State Antony Blinken was supposed to make, but was put on hold because of the suspected spy balloon shoot down is that now in jeopardy of a future

date because of travels by President Tsai.

It's something we will have to see. But as you have mentioned, a lot of care is being used to describe this visit as not official, not as

diplomatic, merely stopovers, or a transit point. Yet that is not doing anything to quell the harsh language and remarks that we are hearing from

Beijing, the strong statements from Beijing. Take a listen to an exchange that we heard just hours ago for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


MAO NING, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON: The United States and Taiwan colluded with each other, an arrangement with Tsai Ing-wen to engage

in political activities in the United States under the guise of transit in an attempt to enhance official exchanges and substantive relations between

the United States and Taiwan. This seriously violated the One China principle and the provisions of the three China-U.S. Joint Communique and

seriously damaged China's sovereignty and territorial integrity.


STEWART: While this visit to the U.S. has not been deemed as official. President Tsai's visit to Central America certainly is with visits to

Belize and to Guatemala. This is part of a mission that she is on to find allies around the world, when alliances with China and other parts of the

world are very strong, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes and those images that we're showing of the President in New York, as you can see, and flags waving certainly resonating back in

Beijing. Marc Stewart, thank you for that. OK, straight ahead. Is AI getting too smart, too fast?

We speak to a pioneer of artificial intelligence about whether it's time to slow things down. And later a meteoric rise in supply chain security and

out of this world approach to clean energy. We're talking asteroid mining and why later in the show.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! Chatter about ChatGPT has soared this year and I know that because I don't feel the need to explain what

that is? Well now a group of artificial intelligence leaders and tech executives are calling for a six-month pause in certain parts of

development citing potential risks to society and humanity.

The letter comes just two weeks after the firm open AI announced an even more powerful version of its viral Chatbot tool. The group proposes several

questions including, should we let machines flood our information channels with propaganda and untruth?

And should we automate away all the jobs, including the fulfilling ones? It's got signatures from Twitter CEO Elon Musk, Apple co-Founder Steve

Wozniak and AI pioneer Yoshua Bengio. Yoshua, who is considered one of the godfathers of AI, sees while chat GPT is impressive.

Market pressures could push tech companies towards secrecy about their AI models. And Professor Yoshua Bengio joins us now. He's also the Founder and

Scientific Director of the Mila, Quebec AI Institutes that was a lot of letters. Professor Bengio, great to have you on the show, I'm going to post

the very simple question once again, is AI getting too smart, too fast in your mind?

YOSHUA BENGIO, FOUNDER AND SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR OF MILA: Certainly, it has been progressing faster than anyone expected, including the people who have

been designing the latest systems. And it has reached a kind of threshold, which is known as the Turing test passing the Turing test meaning simply

that you can dialogue with those systems.

And you may not be sure if you're talking to a human or a machine. So we've seen acceleration in the power of these systems in the last few years, but

even more in the last few months and given the potential risks. We think it is important to start slowing down.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, we've gone from Turing tests to what feels like runaway Turing. But your point that was very important, we're almost at the point,

if not beyond it, where it's difficult to distinguish whether you're talking to a robot, or you're talking to a human?

Is that AI showing human in emotional intelligence, because certainly some of the concerning examples I've seen are literally a conversation where a

Chatbots telling you to break up with your wife? Or do certain things in what appears to be a form of emotional intelligence; is that what we're


BENGIO: Not really.


BENGIO: These systems don't have emotions these systems are trained to imitate the way humans speak given their context. And so because they've

been trained on so much data, they will, and humans do express emotions and those systems just like replicating that kind of thing, but in such a way,

that it's not just copying the words that someone said.

It's producing new sentences every time. So it can really fool us, even into thinking that the entity to which we're talking has emotions, which it


CHATTERLEY: And that's the reason I asked.

BENGIO: That's dangerous, because emotions have a big influence on us, right? So this can be used to manipulate and influence people.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, because whether it is displaying emotional intelligence or not? If we think it is, then that's what matters. What will a six-month

pause, at least achieve really?

BENGIO: Well, it's clearly not enough to come up with all the solutions. But we thought this was a simple enough thing for a small enough group of

companies right now, like a handful. Maybe agree together to take a step back. And even if it doesn't happen, I think what matters is we have that


That collective discussion, the discussion we are having today, so that society can adapt. It takes time for governments to draft legislation. It

takes time to draft international treaties, because it has to be a global thing. And we need to give us that time it's going to take certainly more

than six months.

But the idea is to start the discussion about how do we rein in? How do we protect the public? And how do we agree together which is obviously

difficult? But we've done it in the past, for example, with a nuclear we've done it, you know, in dangerous potential uses of technology and biology

and so on. But we can do it again.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think the Microsoft and the Googles or the Alphabets of this world are prepared to have that conversation because it feels like

even in the last 3 to 6 months?


There's been a race to talk about what you're developing to come out with a better developed a more sophisticated version, even just of these Chatbots

that can provide this kind of support. Do you think even they're prepared and willing to assume that someone else will also pause and not secretly

behind the scenes, perhaps carry on and continue certain development because of the financial rewards?

BENGIO: What you're talking about is exactly one of the important motivations for our latter, that there's currently a race that's

accelerating, in which companies are tempted to go quickly and let the ethical questions on the side. Now, if you put yourself in their shoes,

it's natural, because you know, companies have to survive, companies have to make profit, they want to increase their market share.

So what's the solution? Well, we need to agree together. So if you're one of the leaders of these companies, and you know that your main competitors

all agree, or governments force you to agree on slowing down or some set of rules, then that's fine, because we all you know, it's leveling the playing


So yes, I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but if you put yourself in the shoes of those people, I think they might welcome this.

CHATTERLEY: You know, I read a great book last year by Henry Kissinger and Eric Schmidt. And they were talking about the geopolitical challenges where

you could get an agreement within the United States, for example. Perhaps even Western nations, but countries, perhaps, like Iran, China, Russia, for


If they were deciding to work on this technology might not join for their own purposes and then the level playing field that you're talking about,

suddenly shifts in favor of what could be perceived as, or are perceived as hostile nations.

Yoshua, in order to have this pause, do you think all countries have to be involved? Or is it still worth having this pause, even just in Western

nations, even if other nations decided to continue to develop?

BENGIO: So right now, the West is, you know, has a lot of he's in advance by a large margin. So a few months is not going to change much of that. And

in the long run, you're absolutely right; it has to be a global agreement. And we can do it; it's going to be hard. But you know we've done things

like this for nuclear weapons, and other technologies. So we need to have all of these countries at the table.

We're doing it for climate change, we're not succeeding very well, but, you know, it is possible for countries to come together and agree on things,

because everybody has something to lose if these tools, you know, become too powerful, and can be misused in ways that can be even dangerous for

authoritarian governments, because remember, they're trying to keep their power.

So yes, these are difficult questions and we're not saying we have the answers, but it is important to have scholars, experts, and the media and

everyone who wants to, you know, have ideas about this, come together to explore solutions.

CHATTERLEY: Yoshua, you raise a great point there about the ability to maintain control and I think what's frightening a lot of people here is the

fact that it almost already feels out of control. So the point there about controlled economies is a very valid one.

I want to take the counter here and just pull out one of the other questions, which is, should we develop non-human minds that might

eventually outnumber, outsmart, obsolete and replaces? Should we risk loss of control of our civilization? There will be critics here that say, you're

all being alarmist.

This is like Plato saying, look, let's not write things down, because it means that our brains will atrophy and our memories won't be used quite so

much. What do you say to those that are saying you're overreacting at this moment? Is there a lack of understanding perhaps even today about how

powerful this can be for good and bad? Can we separate the good and the bad?

BENGIO: It's precisely because we don't have a clear answer to these questions that we need to be careful. It's precisely because I can't tell

you exactly how; you know super intelligent AI systems could get out of control. It's not something that I'm like, really thinking too much about,

I'm more concerned about humans using this for their own power. But it is a possibility and we don't understand it enough.


And there is some research trying to help us think about this. But we need more. Even if it's a remote possibility we - do we want to take those

risks. Well, we need to at least start putting the guardrails and doing the research that we need to prepare against those even remote possibilities.

CHATTERLEY: Are you frightened enough very quickly to say that governments should be stepping in even at this moment? And I have about one minute left

on the show--


CHATTERLEY: --to answer that?

BENGIO: Yes. The main message, governments need to step in. And they need to do it internationally.


BENGIO: Yes, because things are moving very quickly, faster than we were expecting. And everyone can see it. You can try ChatGPT.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, frightening. You're sure great to have you with us. Thank you so much. We'll continue this conversation.

BENGIO: My pleasure.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you. Yoshua Bengio there Founder and Scientific Director of the Mila Quebecois AI Institute got it right the second time more "First

Move" after this.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! U.S. stock markets in the green to start the session this Thursday take a look at that picture the S&P on

course for a fifth straight day of gains and adding to those gains. Disney on the rise after a little bit of magic that perhaps even Mickey Mouse

might be proud of legal agreements signed by the outgoing board, taking power from the hands of the new board.

The new board was Florida Governor's creation to oversee the district that is housing or home to Walt Disney World. Stick with me. The Magic Kingdom

seems to have the upper hand in a high profile dispute with state authorities at least for now. But the new board saying it's considering

legal action.


Leyla Santiago joins us now. Leyla I think for an international audience, you have to explain just what's going on here and why the new board is so


LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, a lot of very important contracts because this has been such a feud, a saga long running here, like no to

your point. This was the outgoing so we'll say Disney friendly board members that made this agreement in the days leading up to Florida

lawmakers moving forward with a state takeover of this special taxing district.

I know this is sort of much nuanced and complex. But ultimately, the big takeaway here is this feud, this saga between Governor Ron DeSantis and the

big mouse, not over yet.


SANTIAGO (voice over): In a story with more twists and turns than any Disney movie, the Former Disney Controlled Reedy Creek Improvement District

Board pulled a fast one just before Governor Ron DeSantis and his handpicked board took over.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): This development agreement essentially strips of the government powers and gives those powers to Disney.

SANTIAGO (voice over): The board quietly approved the agreement on February 8th, as Florida lawmakers met in a special session to give DeSantis control

of the District.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot imagine Orange County Osceola County, the City of Orlando or any other Central Florida government, allowing or agreeing to

allow any private developer or property owner to have this sort of control over a government and the officials that run it.

SANTIAGO (voice over): The agreement was signed before DeSantis had a chance to pick his board members.

DESANTIS: This development agreement, which in my opinion is void as illegal - was passed the same day the Florida House passed the bill

creating this board and it was done to prevent us from doing our job.

SANTIAGO (voice over): Under the new deal Disney would maintain control over much of its land in Central Florida for 30 years. And in some cases,

the board cannot take significant action without getting approval from the company just last month DeSantis celebrated gaining control of the board.

DESANTIS: The Corporate Kingdom finally comes to an end. There's a new Sheriff in town and accountability will be the order of the day.

SANTIAGO (voice over): Following a nearly yearlong spat between Disney and the Governor it stemmed from Disney speaking out against a Florida bill

which DeSantis signed into law restricting certain classroom instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity.

And while it looks like the battle between Disney and DeSantis may not be over Disney stands by its action saying in a statement to CNN, all

agreements signed between Disney and the district were appropriate and were discussed and approved in open notice public forums in compliance with

Florida's government in the Sunshine Law.

DESANTIS: I don't think anyone is trying to degrade the guest experience or the quality of the Walt Disney World Resort. I think what we're trying to

do is provide oversight.


SANTIAGO: But you know what that oversight will look like? Well, we're gonna have to wait and find out given what could be sort of legal

implications that we could see in the near future, but more context here, Julia.

I mean, Disney, Walt Disney World Resort is the largest private employer in Florida and this special district that they're sort of arguing over who

actually has oversight. We're talking about 25,000 acres of land here that Disney is now saying, we're going to have some of that self-governing

status back while DeSantis as allies are saying, and I don't think so, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, you've got oversight without the ability to change much, at least at this stage. And that was how it was before. Leyla Santiago

great to have you with us thank you so much for that complicated story! Good job explaining. Thank you.

All right coming up, after the break asteroid mining could rocks in space off Earth's energy conundrum? What about investing in renewable while

diversifying supplies? Space might have the answer, next.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "first Move"! Today at Paris Climate Goals the International Energy Agency says investment in renewable energy must rise

from $1 trillion a year to $4 trillion by 2030. But with that ramped up comes the risk of concentration in supply chains with increasing reliance

on nations like China, Chile, Argentina and Bolivia for essential minerals and metals.

Just remember these resources are needed to produce everyday items like catalytic converters, lithium ion batteries used in electric cars, and

computer chips. But instead of looking elsewhere on the ground what if we looked up at asteroids and the materials they might contain?

Of all the mining startups Astroforge is forging ahead with its first launch next month. It's hitting a ride on a SpaceX Falcon IX rocket to test

whether its refining process can work in space? Here to explain Matt Gialich Astroforge's CEO and Co-Founder.

Matt, I was so excited when I heard about your company. But now you really have to explain what made you go? I know we need more of these mineral

resources and metal resources. Let's look at asteroids.

MATT GIALICH, CEO AND CO FOUNDER, ASTROFORGE: Yes, I mean, we know we're running out of these resources on our planet. And we also know a lot about

asteroids. They hit Earth every day, we call them meteorites. And we can go out and study them and look at what kind of metals are available and what

their concentrations are.

And we went and did that and what we found is that certain elements on a periodic table are much higher concentrations than anything we have on

Earth, of these specific metals. Specifically, we're going after the platinum group metals to start with, because that's what we've identified

as one of these resources that is wildly abundant in space.

CHATTERLEY: How much higher in terms of concentration, just to give us a sense?

GIALICH: Yes, we have some asteroids that we've identified that have up to 10,000 times the percent of platinum group metals on them than the ore

deposits on Earth so in some cases, extremely high.

CHATTERLEY: OK. But this is where it gets complicated, because you're talking about mining for these platinum based metals in space, zero

gravity, we're talking about and refining them. We've got pictures of this, explain how this works.

GIALICH: Yes, so this is a refinery, you know, and we're sending this up in about 10 days on Transporter VII SpaceX Rocket that is going to low Earth

orbit. And we're going to demonstrate that this device can take as input essentially, a metallic asteroid, and it will produce platinum from that

asteroid. And that's what we're going to demonstrate in about 10 days.

CHATTERLEY: So you're going to show both the mining and the refinery operations because I believe this is mining. I'm showing an image on the

screen now. But also the refinery process of basically what you're going to try and illustrate and show investors I'm sure too is that this can be done

in space.

GIALICH: Yes, absolutely. We need to prove that we can essentially refine platinum from what we believe to be an asteroid in the zero G environmental

space. Nobody's ever done it before. We've obviously tested this and the picture you're looking at is in our test facility here on Earth, which can

get very close to what we expect to see in space. But we need to prove that we can do it in space.


CHATTERLEY: Just compare the cost today if you can of traditional mining and I know it's difficult to quantify some of the softer issues like the

socio economic impact and the sort of climate related costs of traditional mining. But if you add in the cost of the space launch and the kinds of

processes that we're talking about here, can you give me any sense?

GIALICH: Yes, I mean, traditional mining on average, if you were to go start an open pit, platinum mine today, we're talking about half a billion

dollars on capital expenditures needed to start that mining process to go through those ore and then to mine everything, it ends up being about $975

an ounce for platinum.

We believe we get that price down to about $50 an ounce for platinum. And again, you know, our startup cost, there are still going to be substantial,

but we're going to our qualities that are so much higher than what we have on Earth that allows us to drive that number down.

CHATTERLEY: I mean that's a dramatic cost. Is this only possible I mean there are all sorts of complications, there will be people looking at this

going, what the heck even now, but because of the collapsing cost of launches of actually getting into lower space orbit and beyond?

GIALICH: 100 percent. This is driven by the advancements we've seen in space, specifically with the new space economy. I mean, SpaceX really led

this wave with the lowering of launch costs and the access to space.

And now we're seeing the second wave of, you know, lunar missions becoming available. And actually, for a second mission in October, we are launching

on one of those rockets that is going to go to the moon, and we will actually leave from the moon.

And what that does for us, it gives us a whole bunch of energy that allows us to escape Earth's gravity well without building a giant crack. So we can

build fairly small space vehicles, which means they're much cheaper that can go out to these asteroids.

CHATTERLEY: And how do you get to the meteorite as well, because I feel like even just that part of the equation here is, is sort of eluding me and

what's the hit rate? I mean, not surely not every meteorite is going to have the kind of elements that you're looking for, or the ore at least that

you're looking for?

GIALICH: No, absolutely not. I mean, we started out with a list of over 1.1 million asteroids that we studied. And we whittled that list all the way

down to about 31 target asteroids that we believe have these high concentrations of platinum group metals.

And we track them daily, right? So we track our trajectories, essentially the planning of leaving Earth to the asteroid every single day to

understand how much fuel it would cost to get there. And that's how we do it.

CHATTERLEY: How far away are we from actually seeing this used on a regular basis Matt? If you had to guess and I know it comes down to financing

success rate, proving that you can do this in space? How far away do you think we are in terms of years? Don't go--

GIALICH: Space is a risky business, and you have a lot of failures out there. And we're going to experience some of those I'm sure, you know, but

our plan right now shows us launching our first mining mission at the end of 2025. We plan on bringing this back by the end of the decade.

CHATTERLEY: Wow! OK and what about money? Do you need to raise more money? How much? Or how far can the money that you have today get you?

GIALICH: Money that we have today can get us through our first two milestones, right, which is that refinery demonstration we're launching in

a couple of days and then also that deep space mission that's going to go out to the asteroid.

That's a huge mission for us, right? That'll be the first time a private space company has ever gone out and operated in deep space, doing a mission

and so I'm super excited for that one to show the world that we can do it.

CHATTERLEY: Wow! It's very Sci-Fi so fingers crossed for those because that really is to your point then a real show me expedition, or at least two of

them. And then the conversations really begin with that with investors. Matt keep us posted please good luck with everything that you're doing!

GIALICH: Thank you.

CHATTERLEYT: Still feels very Sci-Fi. But I'm excited. CEO and Co-Founder of Astroforge, there great to chat to you thank you! Alright stay with CNN

coming up; King Charles becomes the first British Monarch to address the German Parliament, the latest as this historic state visit continues.



CHATTERLEY: Breaking news just coming into CNN. We're learning that nine service members have lost their lives after two Blackhawk helicopters

belonging to the U.S. Army crashed that are according to an army official. The crash happened in Kentucky near the border with Tennessee. There were

no survivors. I'll bring you more on this story when we get it.

In the meantime, King Charles is in the midst of his inaugural state visit to Germany earlier this morning addressing the parliament in Berlin, a

first for a British Monarch speaking a mix of German and English I believe he hailed the relationship between the two nations.


KING CHARLES III: It gives me particular pride to be with you once again now as King and to renew the special bond of friendship between our two

countries. This friendship meant so much to my beloved mother, the late Queen.


CHATTERLEY: And that - continued he then went on to meet displaced Ukrainians alongside the Queen Consort, Camilla. CNN Anchor and Royal

Correspondent Max Foster has been following the King's trip. And he joins us now from Berlin. Max I believe he got a standing ovation at the end of

that speech and I can also see he brought the British weather with him because you're under an umbrella?

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He did. He definitely brought the rain. But as a Brit, I brought an umbrella. So I'm always ready for these moments.


FOSTER: There is some thunder I'm hoping the crews aren't going to get electrocuted, but we will crack on. It was a big speech. It was the first

speech by a British Head of State ever before a session of the parliament. So it was interesting to see how Germany continues to get windier -

continues to really roll out the honors for the King.

He talked about his personal ties with nation. Lots of family had been involved in this trip. But fundamentally, as I said yesterday Julia, this

was a trip organized by the British government and they want to deepen these ties between the UK and Germany.

And it certainly feels like he's been doing that. He's about to go to express one of his interests, which is to go to an organic farm, see how

they're doing that kind of work. He's got his own organic farms, of course, back in the UK. He was also watched a military moment as well.

Much of his speech was interesting the way it tied in the relationship between the two countries because he talks about how they used to be

adversaries during the world wars. But now they're working very closely together in supporting Ukraine in that war against Russia.

So trying to deepen those ties, and it seems pretty effective because everyone we've spoken to is really appreciated the way he's come here and

particularly there spoke German as well in the speech.

CHATTERLEY: And we were just showing live pictures actually, as you mentioned of King Charles, and actually he's crossing what looks to be

relatively uneven ground to meet supporters. He's just been handed a love heart a Union Jack Love Heart with some flowers behind it.

So he's joking around with the spectators there to meet him. There's a real friendly cordial, I think environment that we keep seeing. We were talking

about this yesterday as well too. He's been guided carefully back onto the pavement as we can see there and as you said and organic farmers something

very close to his heart.

Fascinating to watch and nice to see the congeniality I think of this meeting. Max, I'm going to let you go before we have an honor Mary Poppins

moment or to your point you get electrocuted. Please go get somewhere safe. Great to have you with us yes got into cover please.


FOSTER: I don't know what's going on with this weather?

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I would - it would be funny now to if you took off but it might not be funny for you. Great to have you with us Max Foster, thank

you! OK, I'm finally from only happens in Florida files. Take a look at this. Miami Police are searching for a man who was well caught hanging


As you can see, he clung on to that drawbridge for some time until the bridge went back down again. Then he did a celebratory push up and left the

scene so it looks like he actually meant to do it. Police say it's not the first time in fact that this sort of thing has happened but apparently he

walked away fine and healthy and open and shut case there who wrote that I didn't write that but I like it.

That's it for the show. If you missed any of our interviews today, there will be on my Twitter and Instagram pages you can search for

@jchatterleycnn. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next. I'm going to go and check on Max to make sure he's OK. I'll see you tomorrow.