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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Gunfire Heard in Khartoum Despite Ceasefire Agreement; FOX News Serves Ties with Host Tucker Carlson; Bookseller Turns a Page with Huge Expansion; Swiss Bank Reports Results after Credit Suisse Merger; Dutch Startup Accelerator Visits Tech Industry in California; Commercial Spacecraft set to Land on the Moon Tuesday. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired April 25, 2023 - 09:00   ET




JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to "First Move", coming to you again today from London fantastic to have you with us too for

another jam packed show.

And coming up, ceasefire holding a further three day truce in Sudan, allowing time for more foreign nationals to be evacuated but sporadic

fighting still being reported in the Capital Khartoum we'll have a live report for you shortly.

Plus, reelection bid unfolding; President Biden formally kicking off his next and last presidential campaign even as more than half of Americans say

they oppose him going for a second term. And depositors unloading shares of the troubled U.S. Bank First Republic tumbling pre market after admitting

customers withdrew some $100 billion worth of cash in Q1, although business since has stabilized all the details coming up.

UBS also out with Q2, Q1 my apologies results too; the first earnings report since the shock on marriage to Credit Suisse, the bank seeing strong

deposit inflows of almost $30 billion, but profits falling by more than half and clients getting cautious.

UBS losing some ground in Swiss trade are the worst of the banking jitters over. We will be discussing and from booking profits to the profit in

books. The CEO of American chain, Barnes & Noble will be here to discuss expansion plans and top to bottom storm makeovers seems like you can judge

a bookstore at least by its cover.

And global markets investors are certainly running for cover with U.S. Futures firmly in the red. Take a look at that. European stocks are lower

too after a softer handover during the Asia session, a mixed batch of corporate news being digested too. GM reporting strong results and raising

guidance; Pepsi also making more positive noises and McDonald's beating estimates it shares in fact hitting record highs.

But then on the downside delivery firm UPS cutting their outlook and manufacturer 3M announcing some 6000 new layoffs all this of course as we

count down to the big tech earnings later this week too.

A busy show ahead as always and we do begin with the latest from Sudan where a delicate three day ceasefire is underway. Governments from around

the world continuing efforts to get their citizens out before violence erupts once again between those two rival generals and their forces.

This new video shows British military planes landing not in Sudan itself but in Djibouti, East Africa while this group of South Koreans arrived

safely in Saudi Arabia on Monday, Sam Kiley joins us with more.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Julia there is a ceasefire that is being observed to some extent across Sudan even in the

Capital Khartoum, where there's been a reduction in violence, but we've been in touch with people on the ground there is saying that there is still

shooting there is still the sounds of bombardment.

So it is not holding in any way perfectly. This comes after intense negotiations between the warring factions in Sudan, the Saudis and the U.S.

and this will come in at a time when the British are looking at this reduction in violence as an opportunity potentially to fly in to desert --

outside Khartoum and try to continue to evacuate what they estimate to be some 4000 British citizens still being hiding effectively in Sudan.

Last night, we saw the RAF bringing in a large cargo plane that may well be involved in that kind of an operation. But at the same time, there is

really deep concerns now and then emanating from the World Health Organization that a laboratory in Khartoum has been overrun by an armed

group, there are fears that measles, polio, and other pathogens could be released into the community which will be catastrophic at a time when there

is so much violence.

70 percent of the hospitals have been effectively shut down in Khartoum, for example. And the United Kingdom and the United States Julia are also

sending a total of four warships to -- off the coast of Port Sudan. And that is a part of contingency planning potentially to send troops in or at

least establish some kind of bridge here at -- bridgehead out of Port Sudan so that people could be evacuated, particularly if there's continued

violence overland.

But the continued violence of course mitigates against the safe passage, which is some 500 miles some 800 kilometers between Khartoum and Port

Sudan. So a desperately complicated situation a lot of hopes being placed in this very, very fragile ceasefire, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Sam Kiley, there. Now a dramatic deposit drop for First Republic Bank customers that the U.S. regional lender withdrew around one

$100 billion in the first quarter.


In total though deposits were down 40 percent on the previous quarter after a $30 billion cash injection from big banks during last month's banking

crisis shares of First Republic are down, we can take a look at that around 24 percent pre-market.

Christine Romans joins us now on this. Christine, those numbers are eye watering. And it just shows you why there was this dramatic scramble by the

Treasury in some of the largest banks in America to do a deposit drop on this. Without that it's not worth thinking about.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and as someone close to all of those negotiations for that deposit dropped, by the way,

they said, this is a good bank. This isn't a bank that had bad management. This is a good bank. It just shows you how confidence is so important in

the banking sector and how shaken confidence was at that time.

We're talking about $100 billion walking out the door. The stock is down, you know 90 percent from before that crisis when two other banks Silicon

Valley Bank and Signature Bank wobbled and collapsed. And then all of a sudden you had these concerns about banks that had a lot of uninsured

deposits, like First Republic.

So this is what First Republic says it's going to do. You know, it says it has stabilized the situation that it is looking at its balance sheet, that

there will be some changes there. And that there will be job cuts as it cuts costs, and really looks to how it can reposition here to move forward.

So the hope is, of course, that this is a quarterly earnings report, that's rearview mirror looking. And now this company is shoring things up as we

move forward, that the banking crisis is behind us. You know, and I'll tell you that there are some economists who don't even like to say banking


There were wobbles within the banking sector. There was fear within the banking sector, but it was contained. And, you know, hopefully, First

Republic is the end of that story, but very closely watching the regional banks here, because so much of this is about confidence, really in the

banking system.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I was going to say, Christine, when you've got a bank, that saying that we're going to cut as much as 25 percent of the workforce

over the next two months in order to help reduce costs and cut unnecessary or non-essential projects and activities. You wonder how much of this is

about efficiency gains and just stripping back everything.

I sort of still wonder how vulnerable they are, perhaps to a bigger buyer coming in and saying, hey, look, we're just going to sort of absorb you

now. And then we move on. And I guess the other question to ask and you quite rightly asked it was whether this is a one off whether it's in the

rearview mirror or to what extent this is impacted, not just this bank, but other banks, too, and the lending that we see going forward?

ROMANS: Yes, I think a lot of people are looking at uninsured deposits. I think there still is money moving around, but not the kinds of outflows

that we saw in the depths of this problem. But I don't think that in banking in general, what I've been hearing Julia is after a year of higher

interest rates, this episode has caused people who may not have been paying close attention to search for yield, especially if you have more than the

insured amount in a bank.

You're thinking about where you can start to park money for better yield. And that might be something that causes disruption in the banking sector,

but ultimately means that consumers are finding a little more return.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, that is fascinating, isn't it? And I was about to say, actually, it's neither the only sector nor the only company that we're

hearing, making efficiency gains, cutting back on staff and see what they can do at this point in time. Yes. Christine Romans, thank you so much for


ROMANS: Thanks Julia.

CHATTERLEY: President Joe Biden heading back on the campaign trail targeting a second term as U.S. President.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: When I ran for President four years ago, I said we're in a battle for the soul of America.

And we still are. The question we're facing is whether in the years ahead, we have more freedom or less freedom. More rights are fewer. I know what I

want, the answer would be and I think you do too. This is not a time to be complacent. That's why I'm running for reelection.


CHATTERLEY: The announcement coming exactly four years after he launched his 2020 presidential bid. This time, he's arguing he needs voters to give

him more time to finish the job. Arlette Saenz joins us now on this.

Arlette it was expected we've seen the video the question now, I think, really is how does the work really begin to convince the skeptics that he's

the right choice not only for the country, I think that the party too, the right leader for the next four years?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, President Biden finally announced his reelection bid drawing from those themes from 2020, as he

said that the battle for the soul of the country is not yet complete.

But he also warns that Americans freedoms are under threat or facing a threat from what he described as MAGA extremism. That video highlighted

images from the January 6th Insurrection, as well as efforts to limit accesses to abortion in this country something that has been of concern to

many voters.


Something that we saw play out during the midterm elections. The President in his video also they showed images of two men who could pose be his

challenger in a general election matchup that includes Former President Donald Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who has yet to enter the

2024 race.

But ultimately, President Biden is hoping that voters will look at his record and give him a second term in office. Looking at things like the

work he's done on infrastructure and climate change and also efforts to repair relations around the world after many of those relationships were

eroded during the administration of Former President Donald Trump.

Now, one thing that advisors tell me is that just because he's entered the campaign today, it does not mean he's going to immediately ramp up campaign

style events. He's not expected to do any large rallies anytime soon.

Instead, his team believes that one way he can sell himself to the American public is by simply doing the job of being President. A bit later this

afternoon, he will be speaking to a union group here in Washington D.C. as he tries to highlight his ties to the labor community.

He's also over the course of the next two days hosting the South Korean President here at the White House for a state visit. But one area where his

team will be ramping up their efforts is around fundraising. They are aware that this will be a very expensive campaign and the President will start to

try to mobilize top dollar big dollar donors as well as those grassroots supporters.

But really, as this campaign operation is all starting to shake -- take shape and formally launch there are a number of challenges facing President

Biden as he tries to seek reelection to a second term at the White House. The majority of Americans, according to recent polls, do not believe he

should be running for a second term.

And even within his own Democratic Party, that figure is at about 51 percent, who do not believe he should be running for reelection. And if you

break down the doubters, the people who don't believe that he should run, nearly half say that his age is a major issue.

He is 80 years old; he would be 86 at the end of the second term if he is reelected. But ultimately, the Biden's advisors and his allies believe that

he has a strong record to run on, and that voters will side with him when they take a look compared to the Republican alternatives.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's fascinating, isn't it? I mean, I saw an NBC News Poll, and I think those are the same stats from that. That said also that

60 percent of Americans think Trump shouldn't try to retake the Oval Office, including roughly a third of Republicans.

So I guess if it comes down to him, relative battle of the uglies here, then the numbers perhaps work but we'll leave that there before we get told

off. Arlette great to have you with us thank you so much! Arlette Saenz there, thank you. Now FOX viewers are wondering what exactly caused the

network to suddenly severed ties with its star host Tucker Carlson. Here's the official word, at least from FOX.


HARRIS FAULKNER, FOX NEWS HOST: We have some news from within our FOX family. FOX News Media and Tucker Carlson have mutually agreed to part

ways. Tucker's last show was this past Friday. We want to thank Tucker Carlson for his service to the network as host and prior to that is a

longtime contributor.


CHATTERLEY: In a frantic 24 hours for cable news fans Carlson's departure came on the same day as CNN also said goodbye to Don Lemon and other

stories that were breaking across the Cable News Network. CNN Media Reporter Oliver Darcy joins me now.

Oliver you didn't even sleep because it was a really busy 24 hours. Let's talk about Tucker Carlson first and foremost. And what do we think was the

primary reason when we could name Dominion and the cost that FOX News has now got to bear as well towards that text where he was criticizing

management? A former employee that basically said the show was a toxic workplace; you can sort of take your pick.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes, the big question is why? Why did the Murdock who had stood by Tucker Carlson through thick and thin? Why

did they decide to abandon him and fire him on Monday? And the answer is really not extremely clear.

I think it's easy to say and I think it's obvious that Dominion voting systems lawsuit against FOX News played a big role in his firing. But what

part about the lawsuit? What factor about the lawsuit? That's unclear.

Was it the ex-producer who filed a lawsuit as a result of Dominion's lawsuit alleging rampant sexism and anti-Semitism behind the scenes on

Tucker Carlson's program? Was it the messages that were exposed as part of the discovery process that showed him disparaging his colleagues, including

FOX Brass?

There are a number of different things that could have been a play that led to his firing. FOX isn't saying but certainly Dominion, playing a key role

in the ouster of their biggest host and a real force inside the Republican Party.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and also I think maybe I'm biased as a business journalist at heart, but I do think business decisions come to play here and

conversations with advertisers are also important at this moment. And we are in a sort of split screen moment as we push ahead to the 2024 election

some tough decisions made but decisions made nonetheless.


The other big story yesterday Oliver was CNN parting after 17 years with Don Lemon too?

DARCY: That's right. CNN announcing yesterday just really after Tucker Carlson firing had been announced. CNN announcing in a statement that Don

Lemon will no longer be with the network and that they had parted ways. I'll read you a statement from CNN CEO Chris Lick that went up to staffers.

It said that CNN and Don have parted ways. Don will forever be a part of the CNN family. And we thank him for his contributions over the past 17

years. In a statement of his own, I should say Don Lemon punched back at CNN management.

He said that he was upset that they did not have -- they did not tell him directly that this news was delivered through his agent. CNN then disputed

that version of events saying that Don Lemon had the opportunity to speak to senior management but declined.

And so there's this back and forth now playing out between CNN and Don Lemon. But sources on both sides say that that Don, who had just signed a

new contract with for CNN this morning that the new flagship morning show on CNN that he will be paid the remainder of his contract out and so there

is at least some resolution I think that's good for both parties there.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, but not all. 17 years what a run? Oliver Darcy, thank you so much for that. OK, straight ahead, the latest twist in the tale of

Barnes & Noble I'll discuss the expansion and embracing book talk with the Chain's CEO next, and later from book talk to turning up tech I speak to

the Special Envoy of a Dutch Tech Accelerator with a royal touch. That's next.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! Barnes & Noble is the world's largest retail bookseller and it's in the middle of its largest expansion

in over a decade. The chain plans to open 30 new shops this year, two of which in fact are former Amazon bookstores. It also plans to remodel at

least 90 existing stores.

Part of Barnes & Noble's revamp model includes making its stores feel more like independent retailers instead of taking a one size fits all approach.

Joining us now is James Daunt. He's the CEO of Barnes & Noble. James, fantastic to have you on the show!

As a lover of real books when I saw the statistics on your book openings I was truly blown away. You're chain in name only for those that may not know

the Barnes & Noble brand who are you on what are you to your customers?


JAMES DAUNT, CEO, BARNES & NOBLE: We are the largest and last actually remaining surviving large substantial book chain in the United States. For

those in the United Kingdom, the equivalent is Waterstones. And now generally rather sadly, the tens in most developed Western markets to be a

single large bookseller that survives, and some of us got perilously close to death in the relatively recent past.

CHATTERLEY: Explain how you're managing to do this, because to your point, whether it's the sort of pre pandemic concern, I think about people reading

at all, if the changes in how people choose to read more digitization versus traditional books, explain how you've sort of revamped the brand?

And it is about sort of making individual bookstores feel independent, but also, I think, giving autonomy back to those that run those bookstores and

saying, look, you know, your customers best sort of get on with it and provide what they want?

DAUNT: It really is as simple as that, if you want to run a really good bookstore, you have to allow the book selling team within that store. If

it's an independent bookstore, obviously, that comes very naturally because that's who they are.

But in a chain, you have to give it to the individual team's manager and the wider team and say, get on with it, do the best that you can do what

your customers want it and give them the freedom to sell the books that are best for them. And it's that sort of personality that is driven by that

creates really good and engaging bookstores and people love good bookstores.

CHATTERLEY: One of the most important sources of revenue, or at least, a stable source of revenue, I believe was this relationship with the

publishers that you would promote certain books and provide key spots in the store for certain books too.

And I think that was something else that you also said, hang on a second, that's increasing our return rate of books that simply don't sell and you

broke some of those stables chains or sources of revenue, but at the same time, sort of helped in terms of the books that were selling, and returning


DAUNT: Absolutely. And unfortunately, I think, in my predecessors, who, to be honest, were retailers rather than booksellers were addicted to that

revenue that came from selling space, within bookstores to publishers.

And if you do that, then by definition, every bookstore has to be the same, because you sell the space to, you know, John Grisham here, or Stephen King

there. But that creates identical bookstores. And whilst identical might be great, if you're a pharmacy chain, or clothing retailer, it doesn't like


So we stopped all of that and just simply leave it up to each individual store to present them entirely as they wish. Of course, you do forego the

money from publishers, but you sell a lot more. And you don't have returns and all of those inefficiencies that exist with the old model. And overall,

we've done dramatically better as in consequence.

CHATTERLEY: Can you put that into numbers? What percentage of books should be returned you would assume if the business is thriving and is healthy?

And where did you go from? And where are you now, on average?

DAUNT: Typically, under the old model, we would send back about quarter of the books that we bought 25 percent. But that if you was concentrated in

new books, we would send back probably about 70 percent, nearly three quarters of all the new books that we bought.

That's really terrible, but also what's really problematic as your stores end up being full of all the books your customers don't want to buy. We've

got that down to about 8 percent now, and we think this in the year that's coming out where our ambition is to get it below 5 percent so a really a

dramatic turnaround, which simply is a reflection that our booksellers in the stores are much better at deciding what their customers want to buy

than we ever were--

CHATTERLEY: Yes, know your customers and pick the right books for them. It sounds simple, but you've said it sort of takes some tough decisions

initially, at least to give up stable revenue sources. I think the pandemic helps you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I think for many of us, we

had a bit more time we were perhaps traveling less.

We learned our love of books. Do you think it's sustainable and going forward where do you see the split between digital books and physical

books? And particularly, I think age groups as well, we were having a discussion on my show about young children always loving physical books, no

matter whom they are or where they are versus a digital version.

DAUNT: And the interesting thing about these trends is that they are global. It's no different in the United States to the United Kingdom, rest

of Europe or indeed the Far East. The pandemic encouraged a lot more reading. It was particularly buoyant and engaging for young adults.


And it appears to be continuing, we've seen dramatically strong growth. Now that we're well into April and heading into in towards the summer season.

And that makes sense to me. And over a long, long bookselling career that I've had when these moments of growth happened.

And it's what happens with Harry Potter. It happened with the book clubs, it happened with even there I say things like 50 Shades of Grey. We never

lost those customers, because it encouraged reading it engaged people with reading, it's very exciting.

CHATTERLEY: I'm not sure we're allowed to mention 50 Shades of Grey at this time in the morning. It's late enough somewhere in the world. Talk to me

about book talk as well, because you've also, in many ways, harnessed the power of social media, and this is book reviews on Instagram. That's

something that you've also adopted to facilitate, again, customer choices in store.

DAUNT: To be honest, I don't think we particularly adopted it. It's simply that we've left the bookselling teams to get on with it. And the age group

of our booksellers is in a large part identical to the kids and young adults who are driving the book talk phenomenon.

And indeed, a lot of it takes place within our stores. And you can see, when schools, the school there comes to an end, our stores fill up with

lots and lots of kids, of course, you don't have to pay to come into a bookstore, you don't have to buy anything.

And they're in having fun, great gangs of them. And it's that sort of natural, I think sympathy of the bookstore, with what the physical

experience that communities want to have, and particularly these young kids. So I think it's a natural affinity rather than any deliberate purpose

to exploit.

CHATTERLEY: Affinity and a progression. What our viewers might not know is that private equity came in and bought Barnes & Noble and you became the

CEO in 2019. But your book love was well established long before that. You mentioned Waterstones too.

But I believe you also own yourself nine independent bookstores and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I did mention that two of the stores that

you're opening, were former Amazon bookstores. And is there a sort of moment when firstly, when people were saying, well, Amazon is going to get

into books where you thought, oh, my goodness, this is perhaps it for the independent bookstore model? Or were you always confident that to your

point about what works in these stores, that you can be a real big guy.

DAUNT: I think from my history, I've been sort of relatively confident as a small independent books store owner, as I was, you know, I had Amazon or

still am actually sort of Amazon was the big beast. And obviously, it's very, very sort of concern.

But I always thought if I just ran a good bookstore, and my customers clearly liked me, and I would be fine. And that indeed was the case. And I

simply have brought those principles first into Waterstones and now into Barnes & Noble.

And I mean, yes, of course, as we open in former Amazon books, locations, when does a sort of particularly inelegant sort of jig of joy as well as

across the doorstep. But really, bookstores are different. And we want people reading and we don't -- we want those reading e-books.

We want them listening to audiobooks. We want them reading in their public libraries, because all of that encourages that engagement with books and

ideas that ultimately brings people into our stores.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think, to your point about the crux of what successful or what a successful bookstore looks like, that is very unique to this

sector? And perhaps you can't necessarily give advice to other sectors that are challenged by an Amazon or a big juggernaut in the same way, or is

perhaps the message here sort of stick to what you know and know your customer incredibly well and, in a way, don't get distracted?

DAUNT: I think that's right. And we are a vocational trade. Almost everybody who works in a bookstore, certainly those who are building their

careers in bookstores are vocationally minded, you know, we are very sort of immersed in the literary world and the power of books and why it matters

and, and our role within societies which is nowhere near as important as that of the public library. But it's nonetheless something which we take

great pride in.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, keep reading. I think we're all better for it. James, great to chat to you! Thank you so much!

DAUNT: It's my pleasure.

CHATTERLEY: James Daunt, CEO of Barnes & Noble there thank you! OK, still ahead, a Swiss profit miss, UBS the firm not feeling the Q1 burn, it is

about BEI. But the pace of this Credit Suisse merger could spark "Davos Bravos" that story just ahead.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! And U.S. stocks are up and running this Tuesday. And unfortunately, as you can see, it is a lower open

across the board despite some pretty decent corporate results from the likes of Pepsi, GM and McDonald's perhaps some nervousness over the tech

earnings still to come later today.

And an AI bot battle is brewing after the closing bell between two of the biggest names in Tech Chatbot rivals, I'm talking about Alphabet and

Microsoft. Both reporting results Microsoft of course, the mega invested in ChatGPT, what Alphabet says about the Chatbot challenges might end up being

more important in fact, than its overall results.

We shall see shares of both firms a little lower in early trade. And in banking news from a shotgun marriage with Credit Suisse to a Q1 wedding

reception hangover UBS shares under pressure after reporting its weakest quarterly profit in the years clients feeling increasingly cautious as well

but perhaps a bit of icing on the merger wedding cake.

Anna Stewart winning the bouquet toss on this -- long. Now to be the bridesmaid seems to be the bride yourself. I was very excited when I read

that. Let us focus on Credit Suisse and UBS before I get way too distracted and lackluster. There's so much in these earnings, never mind the big

merger deal to calm.

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: There was a lot to get into by numbers, I'd say overall pretty disappointing. Net Profit came in a little over a billion

dollars for the first quarter, which is actually down more than 50 percent from the year before. Now you can look at the massive litigation costs that

putting aside for mortgage backed securities or real old hangover as you say $665 million being put aside for that.

But even if we take that out of the equation, I think these results are still pretty disappointing. Now some of that will speak to the fact that

actually banking has had a very rough start to the year not least following the collapse. And Silicon Valley Bank also looking just very weak economy

weeks depressed trading activity, week investment banking revenues as well.

Obviously that is not what Sergio Ermotti the new and Former CEO of UBS wants to talk about front and center in terms of the bank is inflows.

They're very proud of the inflows they've had for the first quarter particularly in wealth management which actually saw $28 billion of



Now it's making the point that about a quarter of that came in the last 10 days of the quarter. So after that big takeover announcement of Credit

Suisse was made. Well, looking back to Credit Suisse earnings yesterday, we you know, that's actually just a fraction of the outflows that we actually

saw from Credit Suisse.

So some good news there, but certainly not getting all of the activity that it might like Sergio Ermotti saying today, it's not a straight line to


CHATTERLEY: Yes, I love your point and the comparison about what we thought of flowing out from Credit Suisse. And what we've saw flowing into UBS, of

course, when we know a lot of money will have gone into money markets. And I also get that point about the idea that, look, they were still attracting

inflows, even after this deal was announced.

But quite frankly, where else are they going to go, if you wanted to stick them in a bank? What are the analysts saying, Anna, because you would

expect Sergio Ermotti the new CEO, old, new CEO to say, look, we've got this under control, it's going to be OK? But the analysts are saying,

investors need to be a little bit cautious here, I think.

STEWART: Of course, and I think the unfortunate thing is what we don't have here, and it's really no surprise as details are massive monster takeover

and we're not going to get those details. I think, for a little bit longer. Everyone wants to know, what are they going to do with Credit Suisse

investment banking unit?

Are they going to steal, spin it off? Are they going to fold it? What happens in terms of layoffs? What happens in terms of the domestic banking

synergies and whether or not they have to spin some of that off? What happens in terms of all of the -- I know, legacy litigation issues that

we're still seeing emerging from Credit Suisse?

Have they gone through all of the books yet? There are a lot of unknowns here so yes, analysts very nervous about what's going to happen coming

forward with this monster takeover. And we're not going to get those details, at least not for a few weeks yet.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, not necessarily a marriage made in heaven. Anna, unlike yours--

STEWART: --Julia --.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you for that. OK, coming up after the break, I'm joined by Dutch Royalty on a visit to California to strengthen tech ties. I'll

explain after the break.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", as we've long been discussing now the tech sector has been through a pretty turbulent time. Just within the

past year investors were given a reality check on Tech Company valuations as interest rates around the world soared. We've seen tens of thousands of

jobs cut and then the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank added yet more uncertainty.


But that doesn't mean the innovation stops in fact far from it. These are exciting times for startups focused on sectors like AI, cybersecurity and

climate tech just to name a few according to our next guest. Techleap is a Dutch government backed tech accelerator; bringing innovators together with

investors and helping startups grow.

Right now, its key people are visiting San Francisco prospecting for opportunities and building bridges between the United States and Europe.

And joining us now is tech leap, Special Envoy, His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn van Oranje.

Your Royal Highness, fantastic to have you back on the show. Thank you for joining us. I think we can call it a lively 6 to 12 months for the tech

sector. What is it meant for the startups in your ecosystem? And how is sentiment today?

PRINCE CONSTANTIJN VAN ORANJE, SPECIAL ENVOY TO TECHLEAP.NL: Yes, it was lively, actually. And then thanks for having me on the show, again.

Obviously, the sentiment ranges from it's going to be a bloodbath to know there's really a silver lining, because, you know, climate tech is picking

up. We're seeing a lot of energy related investments, health is still doing going strong.

So overall, I mean, we're seeing a bit we're just seeing in the U.S. bigger investments are down. More investments are being done in the in the early

stages. And there's really a focus on the kind of the harder tech, so climate, energy, food and those kinds of related areas.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, so both of those things actually can be true. There's perhaps been a clean out of some of the weaker names, the less obvious

places to invest that I think everybody can see has huge potential going forward. And at the same time, people are being more selective one about

where they're investing into the startups of perhaps focusing on being more efficient, being profitable sooner.

ORANJE: Yes, exactly and that's also the message we're getting here in Silicon Valley is, yes, it's very tough. But a lot of companies have been

financed that may not have been financed under other conditions, you know, we've been running a high of more than 12 years and some consolidation

isn't actually bad, it releases a lot of talent onto the market.

So younger companies cannot actually afford the tech talent that they couldn't afford so all in all, there's a positive side effect of this

notwithstanding, if you are, of course, a tech company, in this stage, you are looking at, still 2 to 3 quarters of postponed investments. And if

you're running out of cash, that's potentially a problem.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, but your point about if more efficient resource allocation, including labor, I think is a vitally important one. The

collapse of Silicon Valley Bank was, I think, a shock for the entire startup community, wherever you were in the world. We had startups calling

it the gold standard for the industry, even in the aftermath.

I think we have to separate the bank from the capital arm too. I believe that the Dutch government, at least before the collapse, was in talks with

Silicon Valley Bank to provide money for a fund of funds in Europe in exchange for venture capital.

ORANJE: Exactly.

CHATTERLEY: Is there any hope that perhaps that might still happens in the future? Is that part of some of the conversations at least, that you're

going to be having there?

ORANJE: Not at the moment. I mean, we know that Silicon Valley banks, foreign activities have been mostly taken over by other banks. And we know

that I mean, this currently, the bank is really focusing on getting back into business. It is one of the reasons why I'm out here also to

reestablish the relationship.

We're very happy to see that Silicon Valley Bank is actually fully operational and is supporting startups. And that as it has been a very kind

of traumatic crisis, weekend and weeks after, but currently, they're really back to doing what they're doing best serving startups, like no other bank

really does.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, what do you want to actually hear from new management to that point? ORANJE: Well, I mean, the fact is that they do stuff and they

work and they bank funds, and they bank startups, and they provide venture debt like no other institution does. So basically, there is still a very

big demand and that demand is being filled. So many of their clients are still banking with them and have come back.

So I think for the staff, it's been, it's been incredibly traumatic. And for many of the startups it was, and I think the investors had a really

rough patch. But all in all, I think here in Silicon Valley, people are looking forward like they always do they tend to look at the positive and

that the opportunities and so do we continue our programs.

We did we have lost a partner in that sense, but we haven't lost Silicon Valley Bank as a partner in terms of networks and contacts.


And they're still extremely generous with everything they can except for of course the investments in Europe they have sadly been put on hold.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, the money is the key. Has all of this made it more difficult to get financing to your point? And I guess can we please

differentiate between the early stage financing? Is it still easier, at least to get the earliest stage financing for some of the startups in

Europe and obviously the Dutch ones that that you're certainly working with in and represent versus later stage financing?

ORANJE: Yes, we've seen obviously the likes of Tiger Global SoftBank, moved out of this space, especially in the late stage investment pre IPO. The IPO

market has largely come to a halt. But I think signals are that -- IPO activity will pick up over summer, and in Q3 and 4. So that will be a

positive signal.

Obviously, if rates come down, inflation comes down, that again, could be a signal for investments to start to increase again. So that's basically the

dollar signs that we're looking for.

CHATTERLEY: I sort of wonder whether it will also perhaps accelerate some of these businesses to go public, perhaps sooner than they might have done

simply to get money because that is the sort of easiest on a tough scale option for them now, if they can't get that later stage financing. Do you

think there's any sense to that? Or am I just hypothesizing in the dark?

ORANJE: Depends a bit on their investors, of course, if they want to take if they want to take a cut. But I think what we will be seeing is more M&A

activity because these companies have become where their valuations have come down considerably. And so it's become much more interesting to acquire

these companies.

And as they are running out of cash, they will be looking for options. So we will see more strategic M&A happening. And of course, the companies that

have solid investors will go back to their own investors, and we'll provide them with the capital to continue, because there's also something here for

you if you emerge out of a crisis, and you're well capitalized.

And there's much more chance that you'll become the category leader. So funds are really kind of focusing on their portfolio instead of on doing

new deals. So those companies that are back that have a good runway, are in a pretty solid position going forward.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and this can be a huge opportunity to differentiate yourself speaking of that, because you are flying the flag for Dutch

startups in the United States. You mentioned climate tech, in particular.


CHATTERLEY: So what really gets you excited? And where do some of these European Dutch startups specifically have edge even as you go to the United

States and say, hey, look, we're looking for money and we can kind of show you the way forward?

ORANJE: Well, actually, so where there's an edge is in the really complicated can deep science, you know, and this is ranges from

semiconductor, quantum computing to new energies, like nuclear fusion, these kinds of areas where there's really much of a Greenfield still.

And so it's less in maybe in FinTech and in SAS companies, those are kind of maybe a bit saturated, even though they're still really good FinTech

coming out. And on the whole, I think we are really quite, quite bullish. And we've seen that in Europe devaluation have been lower.

And Europe has become a very interesting market also for American investors. And we think that also because this whole shift towards the

energy transition, food transition, these things have been picked up by European governments as well as priority areas.

So there's also a lot of public money flowing into the Venture Capital system in Europe, which has actually financed these companies. So as you

know, they will go into Q1 into next year. And we hope that also the American funds, you know, their appetite is going to pick up, we see that

for those companies, there's likely to be substantial capital available.

CHATTERLEY: It's interesting that to your point governments also laying the groundwork for the advancement that we've seen in European startups

relative to the United States, which I think is an important message across the board. And can I ask your views on ChatGPT and artificial intelligence


And the opportunities perhaps that you see there and what side you fall on those in the industry at least. There are at least some of them that are

saying there needs to be a pause and development simply to build some guidelines. Talk about the ethics and understand where we're headed on

this. Where do you --?

ORANJE: Yes, as you ask the question, and also why would we ChatGPT answer?


ORANJE: No, I think I'm not on any side of this conversation except for that, I think it's impossible to just hold to development like that.


It is interesting that such high standing individuals from Silicon Valley and from the tech scene have been actually building a lot of these AI

technologies that they're the ones going to voicing their concern. So it is something that we need to be aware of.

And I think governments should be really keen to follow these build skills as well in this space, and set certain boundaries for their development,

because, quite frankly, you know, we also have human rights to protect and if the AI kind of infringes on those, you know, there's something that

governments need to do to protect individuals.

On the other hand, you know, you want innovation to flourish, and you don't want to stop the development. And we had a very interesting conversation

actually here in the Valley. And it was about someone made a statement that you can't have ChatGPT giving medical advice, and that sounded like a very

acceptable statement.

You don't want an AI to replace doctors. But then somebody said well, in India, there are 300,000 people for every psychologist. So if you have

mental health, there's no way you're going to get access to psychologist and then ChatGPT provides you these kinds of tools can provide you a really

good alternative.

So where there is scarcity, actually, this technology can really democratize the access to knowledge and expertise. I thought that was a

really pertinent point. We shouldn't always take a very kind of Western centric view to this; we'll see how these technologies can also really

benefit progress in other parts of the world.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, but it has to be overlaid with human intelligence and judgment, too. I think that's the message.

ORANJE: And I'm underpinned.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, underpinned, yes, not just overlaid. It's been a pleasure to chat to you Your Royal Highness. Thank you so much for your time once

again, and good luck with all your discussions. I look forward to chatting again and hearing your progress. Thank you.

ORANJE: Thank you very much.

CHATTERLEY: Great to chat to you.

ORANJE: Have a good day.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you. We'll back after this, stay with "First Move".


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", Russia's top diplomat center chair another U.N. Security Council meeting shortly in New York. On Monday,

Sergey Lavrov chaired a meeting that was supposed to focus on peace. But he was strongly criticized by Western diplomats over Russia's actions in


This comes as Moscow threatens to terminate the Black Sea grain deal. And finally, it's a big deal in space for Japan and the United Arab Emirates.

We could be about to witness the first lunar landing by a commercial spacecraft. Yes, the Japanese lander had come to -- is carrying the Rashid

rover which was developed in the UAE.

It was launched by a SpaceX rocket which blasted off from Cape Canaveral back in December. Yes, I remember it well. If you're wondering why it took

so long to get there we're told it's been following a low energy trajectory to save fuel -- slow amble to the moon.


That's fine still first, we'll see. That's it for the show. If you've missed any of our interviews today there'll be on my Twitter and Instagram

pages you can search for @jchatterleycnn. "Connect the World" is next. We'll see you tomorrow.