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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Turkey's Election Council Announces Runoff on May 8; Opposition Leader calls for Alliance of Progressive Parties; Presidential Election Appears to be Heading Toward Runoff; White House: Crossings Dropped after Title 42 Expired; Pearson CEO: Adding Pure Info to AI Means Better Results; Negotiators Expected to meet again Amid Signs of Progress. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired May 15, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST FIRST MOVE: And warm welcome to today's show, great to be with you for a post-Eurovision, "First Move vision" edition of
the program. Congratulations to Sweden on this weekend's big win and on our "First Move" at playlist this hour.
And cranks to Presidential elections in Turkey appear headed for a high stakes run off later this month. With almost all the votes counted
President Erdogan failing to pass the key 50 percent mark we are live shortly with the latest. Plus, Chequers chums Ukrainian President Volodymyr
Zelenskyy and the U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak meeting at the PM's Retreat.
Zelenskyy calling on the U.K. for fresh support ahead of a much anticipated spring offensive Britain responding by sending drones and more missiles.
And artificial intelligence relevance will speak to the CEO of Education Giant Pearson about its big bets on generative AI.
The big question whether for profit education firms can compete with free ChatGPT or we'll be discussing later on the show. So lots of -- as we kick
off a new week on global markets. Positive action in the United States and mixed picture in Europe though, and I can give you a look at that in just a
The German DAX pulling back a little after hitting a one year stock market high. Today's U.S. trading I think reflecting some much needed optimism on
the ongoing debt ceiling drama negotiators reportedly making progress ahead of an expected meeting tomorrow between President Biden and congressional
We've got an update on all the details on that later on in the program. For now Turkish equities lower in volatile trade a reflection I think of the
uncertain weeks ahead before a Presidential runoff with -- now giving President Erdogan this second round advantage.
The benchmark index currently down by some 3 percent. Bank stocks broadly lower watch the currency as well too, because that's under pressure.
Turkish stocks though, have rallied this past year on hopes for leadership change and possibly new policies to tame an inflation rate that's running
at over 40 percent officially and stabilize the currency and bolster investor confidence.
But the Turkish lira falling to record lows against the dollar today. You can see that intraday now around two tenths of a percent higher for the
dollar. We'll discuss what kind of future voters are choosing for their country later in the program with a Former EU Ambassador to Turkey.
But first, the latest on that vote count and its official. Turkey's election Council announcing the country will have a runoff election on May
28. No candidate has the 50 percent threshold needed to win outright. Jomana Karadsheh stayed up overnight reporting on every angle of the vote
counting and joins us now. And Jomana, it looks like you're headed for another sleepless night later this month.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it looks like it, Julia. I mean, this was looking like the likely scenario as we headed into the early hours
of this morning with neither of the candidates looking like they had achieved that 50 percent threshold that was needed.
I mean for President Erdogan just over 49 percent. But I mean, Julia he still defied the expectations leading up to this election. All the polling
that was coming out from this country did put the opposition's candidate Kemal Kilicdaroglu in the lead. There was the possibility of a runoff that
was expected but they did put Kilicdaroglu in the lead.
And this is clearly not what we have gotten so far. It seems both sides are saying that they are ready for a runoff. This is what we have heard from
both the opposition and from the Turkish President saying that if this is the will of the Turkish people, they are going ahead to this second round.
But you know the opposition is still trying to maintain this very positive attitude about all of this, saying that they believe. They can still do
that to do this, Julia. I mean, this is something we haven't seen in this country before leading up to this consequential election for the country.
You had the opposition really diverse coalition left, right, centrist conservatives, defectors from President Erdogan's party backed by Kurds. I
mean, this was a very diverse coalition, something we hadn't seen here before. And they believed that this would give them that advantage that
they would be able to unseat President Erdogan by going in to this election together as a unified front with one candidate.
But it does seem that this was not enough at this point. And then I mean for President Erdogan, this is not victory. But this at this point is he
sees this and his supporters see this as a win so far. I mean, he has his ratings have really suffered in recent months in recent years, whether it
is because of the economic situation in the country.
The economic crisis, the hardship that almost every person you speak to in this country is facing on a daily basis with the double digit inflation
with the lira losing much of its value over the past couple of years yet still with that. And, of course, the response to the earthquake back in
February, that disastrous initial response by the government and what was what they've been criticized of the lack of preparedness.
There was a lot of speculation how is this going to impact President Erdogan? And it does seem, Julia at this point, he has emerged from all of
this unscathed. Yes, this is the first time where you see Erdogan going into an election and not coming out victorious.
But still, he has managed to gather the support of about 50 percent nearly of this population. And really, if you look at these results, yet again, it
is a reflection of what a divided nation this is and what a truly polarized society it is.
CHATTERLEY: Absolutely, and I think to your point and incredible result, given the amount of criticism is based the handling of the economy,
currency crisis, high inflation, the criticism of the earthquake. Now we see what the runoff brings. Jomana, great to have you with us for now, and
we'll discuss this further later on in the show.
For now, a warm welcome for Ukraine's President Zelenskyy as he visits the United Kingdom today. Take a look at this tweet by British Prime Minister
Rishi Sunak, showing the two sharing an embrace. This latest visit is part of a European tour by the Ukrainian leader who's looking up to shore
support across the continent. He also provided more detail about becoming Ukrainian counter offensive. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: We're really in need some more time. Not too much. We'll be ready, you know, in some time I want to be
very honest with you. I can't share with you some days. I just don't want to prepare not for our friends, runoff secrets from our friends.
But there are some secrets from our neighbors. That's why we have to prepare and I'm here not only because of this support, but of course
including this board. It will help us to be stronger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And Sam Kiley joins us now from Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine. Sam, that's a consistent message from President Zelenskyy. And the point that he
doesn't want to let perhaps enemies know what they're up to as well. But it is important too, I think that they did get more support from the United
Kingdom though. I think he's big pleas still fighter jets and they remain elusive. It's just going to take time.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very interesting that the British government has already endorsed President Zelenskyy's
pleas for F-16 fighter jets backing away. This is the Ukrainians from their pleas for the Typhoon which is less useful to them in any cases, not much
of a bummer. It's a fighter.
So the U.K. though giving training, fighter pilot training to Ukrainian pilots, or at least announcing that they're going to do that announcing
longer range attack drones. These are very important piece of equipment from the Ukrainian perspective. And of course, more air defenses again,
very important equipment coming, Julia, at the end of this campaign really waged by President Zelenskyy in his whistle stop tour around Europe.
Drumming up support, making sure that the pledges are there for a long term investment in Ukraine's Military capability, extracting very substantial
pledges from the United Kingdom and Germany in particular and keeping the Russians guessing once again, saying, oh, we're not quite ready yet for a
But a counter offensive is coming signaling to Russian troops on the ground that something pretty terrifying is coming down the tracks at them. That
itself is part of the psychological operations that the Ukrainians are already conducting as part of the early stages, if you like, of what will
be or is hoped to be, or assumed to be a ground offensive by the Ukrainians, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, there's a physical war going on. But there's certainly a morale war or battle going on and tied to that. I wanted to ask you what
the latest is from Bakhmut, a couple of things, Ukrainians, hailing their recent advantages, and then I saw that the Wagner mercenary boss was forced
to refute a report in The Washington Post that they offered Kyiv Intel on Russian troops in exchange for territory. What do we make of that?
KILEY: Well, let's deal with Prigozhin first, this man is a murderer. He runs a murderous organization that has been designated by the United States
as criminal, as the French Parliament, as a terrorist organization. The French are asking the EU for an EU why designation as a terrorist
organization something the British are also considering.
And he is famous now for or infamous for explosive laden statements criticizing the Kremlin criticizing the Russian war effort. It doesn't
necessarily therefore come as a surprise that he may have engaged in a bit of wink-wink nudge-nudge attempts to sell out his own country to the
This is the preliminary stages of an offensive campaign conducted potentially by the Ukrainians. So disinformation is very useful in this
sphere, he has denied it but lampooned these allegations, including that saying that he wasn't even in Africa, where he's alleged to have been at
the time when he's alleged to have been there to allegedly meet with the Ukrainian Intelligence Officers.
So in that context, I think it's just part of the maelstrom of nonsense really, that frequently surrounds Prigozhin is very, very difficult to
establish what his agenda really is, but more importantly, where his fighters are, in fact, you rightly point out.
The Ukrainians are winning a bit of ground back after many months, really, a very grinding warfare. They've been able to recapture significant chunks
of the outskirts of that town potentially giving them the tactical advantage with that possibility of even encircling the mercenary group that
is active there.
And more importantly, I think, showing up frictions and poor communications between the mercenaries and the wider Russian Armed Forces, and potentially
also signaling to Russian troops that Ukrainians are capable of getting very much on the offensive.
And again, that plays into trying to undermine the Russian soldiers will to fight because that ultimately, is Ukraine's most important strategic weapon
break that will to fight and they could break the Russian invasion into pieces here in Ukraine, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, back to the battle for morale. I think that might end up being the quote of the show, actually the maelstrom of nonsense.
Fortunately, we have you, Sam, to cut through it. Thank you, Sam Kiley there. Thanks for joining us.
In the meantime, voters in Thailand have dealt a powerful blow to the incumbent government, the progressive Move Forward party winning the
greatest number of seats in Sunday's general election. And the party's leader is wasting no time, already calling on other parties to join with
him in an alliance and oust the current Prime Minister.
CNN's Paula Hancocks joins us now. Paula, sort of my reading of the Move Forward parties that they are a party of reform, whether that's in terms of
economic policy, or seeing the removal of the influence of the military in leadership in the country too. Do we have a sense of how many of the other
progressive parties will join them in some kind of coalition and the power that gives them to enact change?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, it's interesting because the one party that was pledging, the biggest changes, and the most
reforming changes is the one that secured the most votes. The second per tie, which was the favorite going into this election has already said that
they would work together with Move Forward.
So the progressives have already said that they're going to be working together because they understand that it is important to have as many seats
as possible within this coalition to make sure that they can carry out the reforms that they have spoken off. So Move Forward is saying there will be
They will reform the economy they want to reform the military IE to make sure that the military is taken out of politics. And they've also gone even
further, and they want to reform the once untouchable monarchy. Now, we've seen there has been a parade through the streets of Bangkok, by Move
Forward and its leader and we heard from the leader a little earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PITA LIMJAROENRAT, MOVE FORWARD PARTY'S PM CANDIDATE: People of Thailand have already spoken they wish and I am ready to be the Prime Minister for
all whether you agree with me or you disagree with me. I have congratulated couldn't pay it on time from pure Thai for her hard fought campaign, and
have invited her to join the coalition. And that includes five more parties in the previous opposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANCOCKS: So the coalition is building as we speak, but there is not necessarily a guarantee that the leader of the biggest party is going to be
the Prime Minister.
Now Pita understands that he needs as many within this coalition as possible because over the last few years when the military backed parties
have been in control they've changed the Constitution. The deck has been stacked in favor of those military backed parties.
For example, there are 750 MPs that need to vote for the Prime Minister. But 250 of those are part of the Senate and they have been elected by a
military backed party. So clearly, that is where their allegiances lie. So this is really what we're looking at going forward, how can we Move Forward
make sure that they do have as extensive a coalition as possible?
But certainly the mood on the streets this evening, local time in Bangkok was jubilant as they watched that parade, going through the streets, saying
that they felt as though they had been listened to and the key to this election was the use, a more vocal, a more empowered young generation who
is more interested in politics who wants to change the future of their country.
And that is certainly what we saw with this vote on Sunday that many youth came to vote. In fact, it was a record turnout for Thailand. But of course,
it is not a done deal. It'll be five days before these unofficial results become official. And then of course, this deal making happens to find out
exactly who will be Prime Minister, Julia?
CHATTERLEY: Yes, winds of political change. We'll see where they lead us. Paula Hancocks, thank you for that. Now, 78 year old American citizen has
been sentenced by a Chinese caught to life in prison on spying charges. John Leung, who is also a Hong Kong permanent resident was detained two
years ago by state security authorities.
Authorities in Hong Kong have been notified and are now following up. China hasn't provided any further details. The sentencing comes as relations
between Beijing and Washington are at their lowest point in 50 years. Ivan Watson joins us now. Ivan, when I read this story.
I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't even I didn't recognize his name. What more do we know about him and the charges against him?
IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right! Well, we really didn't know that this American citizen had been in Chinese custody for more than
two years, until the court in Suzhou issued the statement today announcing that he had been sentenced to life imprisonment on the charge of espionage.
They identified the man is John Shing-Wan Leung, 78 years old, a U.S. citizen, also a Hong Kong permanent resident who'd actually been detained
since April 15 of 2021. We don't have really further details on that, except that the Hong Kong government.
That the highest security official in the Hong Kong government did clarify in a Press Conference that the administration here in Hong Kong knew about
this case, going back to 2021 but did not add any further comments on this. Now we've reached out to the U.S. Embassy.
And they also say that they're not going to comment on this case due to privacy considerations, and that they have no greater priority than the
safety and security of U.S. citizens overseas. I would like to add that just last week, the U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan he met for
hours face to face with his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi in Vienna.
And they had discussed a whole wide range of issues. But among the issues that Sullivan reportedly brought up were the cases of Americans allegedly
wrongfully detained in Chinese custody Mark Swidan, Kai Li and David Lin. We did not hear the name of this individual who's just received a life
sentence in China.
One final detail is that the Chinese government has been tightening the rules for what it defines as espionage. It passed a law making it much
stricter some years ago, and just last month has tightened those rules, even more making it potentially very, very dangerous to hold on to any
documents, even any papers that the authorities could judge to be a national security matter, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I mean, this, there's so much detail in that, you know, what's quite fascinating and what stands out to me actually, is what you
said about those talks. Several hours on one occasion, I think I read eight hours' worth of talks between high level officials and the choice here,
Jake Sullivan, rather than the U.S. Secretary of State.
Interesting timing, important breakthrough given that I just said in your introduction, a 50 year low in relations important to be around a table and
talking I think at this moment for many reasons.
WATSON: Absolutely! And also the fact that I mean, this was on Friday that both the Chinese side and the White House put out remarkably similar
Meaning that they for once these two governments their delegations were able to come to agreement and not just about that but also to agree that
they would maintain this important strategic channel of communication. And one step further, that they would build on the engagement between President
Biden and President Xi that was reached back in Bali on the sidelines of the G 20 summit in November of last year.
That's not the kind of language that we've heard in months ever since that Chinese surveillance balloon was detected over the U.S. and then shot down
by the U.S. and that basically -- a planned visit by the U.S. Secretary of State Blinken to Beijing. It could be a sign these talks last week that the
world's two largest economies are headed towards some kind of common ground, which would probably be welcome, if you're talking about stability
around the world.
CHATTERLEY: Absolutely! Watch this space and agree on the remarkably similar statements too, a movement here clearly, I think. Ivan Watson,
thank you, great to have you with us. We'll back after this. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move" and returning to our top story Turkey's hotly contested Presidential election. President Erdogan has
failed to gain the 50 percent threshold needed for an outright victory, the main opposition leader saying now he welcomes the upcoming runoff election
in two weeks' time.
My next guest said in the runoff to Sunday's vote that for the first time in 20 years a change of leadership in Turkey is possible. And it would mean
dramatic shifts in foreign policy, the role of Turkey in NATO, and a tangible impact on security in Europe. Joining us now is Ambassador Marc
He's a Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe and a Former EU Ambassador to Turkey. Ambassador Pierini, great to have you on the show and can I just
start by asking you about this vote? Are you surprised by the level of support that President Erdogan achieved in this election? Given the
backdrop the challenges with the currency with the economy their criticism over autocratic rule. Is this a surprise?
MARC PIERINI, FORMER EU AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY: Oh, well, certainly all the polls were wrong both for the opposition and for Erdogan himself.
So it is to an extent to surprise but what's important here is that number one that is just said we have a second round on the 28th. And number two,
the parliament is now known and whoever wins Erdogan or Kilicdaroglu will face a majority of the current incumbent majority that is AKP, Erdogan's
party and the Nationalist Party MHB.
So we are facing a more conservative, more nationalist parliament and that, of course, as a strong importance for Erdogan himself.
CHATTERLEY: What does it mean? If he does, indeed, as I think investors are predicting now, and certainly the view is perhaps this does sway the
likelihood of President Erdogan winning that second round vote? What does that mean now for him as he pushes forward, because you could argue that
the status quo may be maintained on much of the policy, but one could also argue that the country can't withstand that some things have to change?
PIERINI: Well, it means two things, one, if ever Kilicdaroglu was elected, it wouldn't be able to reintroduce parliamentary democracy, because it
wouldn't have qualified majority in parliament. So what we have in front of us is five more years of the super Presidential regime introduced five
That's one, number two, if, as it seems likely Erdogan prevails. Well, it means more autocracy and more confident relationship, let's say with
Russia. And perhaps, continued disruptive relationship with the West, and in part with NATO.
CHATTERLEY: But part of the challenges and clearly the country is deeply divided, is the fact that we've seen currency collapse, investors fleeing
from Turkey? And there was hope in the lead up to this, that perhaps some kind of leadership change might help that President Erdogan has intervened,
not allowed the Central Bank to raise interest rates to try and stabilize the situation.
Do these kinds of policies continue, Ambassador in your mind, if President Erdogan does win the second round?
PIERINI: Well, in that case, it's very difficult to predict a change for the better according to Western standards, number one, because these
interest rate policies are very, very personal to Erdogan it has religious roots. And he is convinced and it you know, it was a long standing
conviction of his that low interest rates help lowering inflation.
Well, it's of course, the opposite. And therefore, they have spent billions and billions of the currency reserves. They've sold gold, currency reserves
on those negative, net reserves are negative, and gold has been reduced quite a bit. So that is the biggest question mark for the future
presidency, including if it is Erdogan himself either he reverses completely his views, or he continues to run the economy on steroids, like
he's done with Russia was the -- and without that.
CHATTERLEY: I think it's something that the opposition leader needs to be pushing in the next couple of weeks to try and help people understand the
consequences perhaps of no change in this policy is just one point of this. The worst some suggestions by the way of irregularities, though I know the
institutions are considered relatively strong despite some of the pressures. Are you concerned that there's any interference in this vote?
PIERINI: Well, we will see what the OSC election report is? I think there was some kind of fraud but probably very limited, and probably not one that
would have changed the result. What you have is a super powerful AKP party. Powerful for several reasons one because Erdogan, he himself, a fierce
leader, and a speaker, but also because you have a system which is well known of kickbacks from public tenders.
And this is what for 20 years has made this party very powerful that is very rich. Let alone the fact that of course, the campaign was unfair
because it was as usual run with all the state means and with Erdogan in control of most media. So what we've sampled statistics for April, was that
Erdogan at 32 hours of live TV, and can you tell you at 32 minutes on public television?
CHATTERLEY: Wow! I mean, that's a statistic and I think you can --.
Yes, impress upon the importance of having the influence over the media and able to minimize the opposition's power to speak their mind and tell you
what they want to do for the country. Ambassador, I think we've lost your line. Yes, he's frozen.
OK, I'm going to thank him there Ambassador Mark Pierini, a Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe and Former EU Ambassador to Turkey. Stay with CNN coming
up, how the expiration of Title 42 has impacted the tense situation at America's Southern border. We're live in a border community for the very
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! Authorities at the U.S. southern border say encounters with migrants have more or less halved in the day
since the restrictions known as Title 42 expired last week. The Homeland Security Secretary says it's still too early to know whether the surge in
numbers trying to enter the U.S. from Mexico has peaked.
Polo Sandoval joins us now from El Paso, Texas near the border. Polo, this is really quite interesting. I just wonder whether the real surge came
actually when the Biden Administration took over and the "Build the Wall" talk of the Trump Administration ended and actually that was far more
influential for these people than what we're seeing today. Would you agree?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely Julia. In fact, the migrant presence that we're seeing here in El Paso, Texas, many of them are those
who surrendered to federal authorities leading up to the expiration of that Title 42 Public Health Authority.
So the folks that you see behind me are those who have already been processed by federal authorities and released however many of them --
there's no more room at some of the shelters here in the committee, so many of them turning to sidewalks to -- for -- where they're staying overnight
before continuing with their travels.
SANDOVAL (voice over): Sunday morning along the border in the El Paso, quiet remarkable change from last weekend a far cry from the anticipated
crush of migrants expected.
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The United States border patrol has experienced a 50 percent drop in the number of encounters
versus what we were experiencing earlier in the week before Title 42 ended at midnight on Thursday.
SANDOVAL (voice over): The reason he says.
MAYORKAS: We have communicated very clearly a vitally important message to the individuals who are thinking of arriving at our southern border, there
is a lawful, safe and orderly way to arrive in the United States. And then there's a consequence, if one does not use those lawful pathways.
SANDOVAL (voice over): With Title 42 expired federal authorities now leading on Title 8 decades' old protocol for asylum seekers with lengthier
process times and more severe consequences for crossing illegally, including deportation, a five year ban on re-entry and a possible criminal
prosecution for subsequent attempts to enter the United States according to Homeland Security.
JAVIER VILLALOBOS, MAYOR OF MCALLEN, TEXAS: I think hopefully, the immigrants are heeding the advice. So we are, of course we're conservative.
We still know about the numbers in late last April, and the numbers that are coming from different areas. But right now, we are within capacity, and
we're logistically doing well.
SANDOVAL (voice over): Republicans in Washington pushing back on the administration's approach.
REP. MARK GREEN (R-TN): They can't predict the peak CDP said 40 percent increase is expected with Title 42 gone, that's another 9 million people in
two years. I mean, they've already let 5.04 million encounters and 1.5 million got always as they've tried to manage border security and not
secure our border.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're still in high alert.
SANDOVAL (voice over): Still, southern border communities are concerned about overcrowded and under equipped migrant processing in detention
facilities. Migrants like Connie -- and her daughter Danielle released from detention, but not sure if or when they will have the resources to continue
As migrants keep arriving in New York City, the Mayor this week and announcing that the vacant Roosevelt Hotel will now be used to house
hundreds of asylum seekers. The measure taken as many Mayors from around the country plead for Washington to solve the immigration issue once and
OSCAR LEESER, MAYOR OF EL PASO, TEXAS: There is no end game in communities like El Paso on the southern border. We can't continue for infinity.
SANDOVAL: Back on the streets of El Paso 7.30 this morning, many of the people who -- have been spending the night on the sidewalk just outside of
one of the shelters here in downtown El Paso. Again, these are the folks who have not been able to make their way into a shelter because many of
those Julia they are still at or near capacity.
So what this 50 percent drop in some of the encounters along the border is doing is allowing some of the federal facilities to process these migrants
to basically catch up with the demand, but also an opportunity for many of these shelters to get help to some of these individuals that hope to leave
these border regions and make their way into various American cities Julia.
I've spoken to many of these individuals; they tell me they're heading to Denver, Colorado, New York City is one as well. And that is the figure that
is going to continue to rise regardless of what we see here in the border region, the number of asylum seekers seeking temporary refuge in some of
those American cities.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, but they're lucky that wasn't the kind of surge that perhaps others were anticipating or that the challenges of dealing this
would have been greater. Polo, great to have you with us, thank you for your insights from El Paso, Texas! Now after the break, integrating AI into
education, I speak to the CEO of Education Giant Pearson on how it plans to harness the power of AI and its products, next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! Since the emergence of ChatGPT and Google's Bard there's been plenty of talk and certainly some warnings
about the rapid adoption of artificial intelligence and its impact on education. Pearson the British Publishing and Education Company say AI has
been a big part of its work for years.
The last week it announced plans to further integrate artificial intelligence into its products to enhance those for students and educators.
And joining us now is Andy Bird. He's the CEO of Pearson. Andy, great to have you on the show!
I feel like ChatGPT has been a sort of light bulb moment for both of us. But surely you have to have been thinking about AI and the impact in your
business now for a long time. How does what you were already doing differ from what you announced last week, and welcome?
ANDY BIRD, CEO, PEARSON: Thanks Julia, it's great to be on the show. As you say, as the world's leading learning company, we embrace technology. And in
fact, we've been using artificial intelligence across our businesses for about two decades now.
And with the rapid innovation of ChatGPT and other larger language models, we see this as a unique opportunity to embrace this new technology. But as
you reference, the broader large language models do come with their foibles, as you say, or their hallucinations are sometimes referred to.
And that means in terms of all the information that they have ingested from public sources around the world, there is a lot of facts, but there's also
a lot of fiction. And where we can differentiate ourselves, of course, is with our own intellectual property, through thousands and thousands of
textbooks, for example, that go over decades of really pure information.
And what we found is if you ingest this pure information into these large language models, you get better results coming out of the other side, and
there is a trust and purity to the results, which we think serves faculty and students alike very well.
CHATTERLEY: OK, but that sounds very complicated. Andy, I'm going to put this into English because I think actually what you've already done is
answered my next question, which is, what does the adoption of artificial intelligence tools, give your consumers going forward? What they didn't
have before and what is superior to using ChatGPT?
And what you're saying is, what you're going to do is overlay and remove some of the crazy that many of us have seen and heard about and read about
and probably experienced themselves, the fake information that can be garnered from ChatGPT. Is that what you're going to do?
BIRD: In essence, yes. These large language models like ChatGPT, and others have an appearance of intelligence, but they are only as intelligent what
they really are predictive algorithms. So what they're trying to do is really predict the next word in a sentence based upon the data that a user
And that's what causes sometimes miss reading of the input combined with the information that these large language models have that creates false
answers. Clearly, that's something that we can't live with and faculty and students don't want either.
So if you only input your data for example one of our leading biology textbooks is Campbell's Biology is the sort of definitive authority for
college students in the United States and around the world studying biology.
As we input, the past editions of Campbell's Biology, the output of that is only drawn from that proven, peer reviewed information that goes in. And
then I think the other thing that's very important is it's not -- if these large language models existed, just through regenerating words, then all
we'd have to do is really read the Oxford English Dictionary or Webster's and these models would be perfect.
They don't lack the structure, that teaching, for example, gives us experience. These models don't have the knowledge and experience and
context that you get in the real world. And that's where I think companies such as Pearson can really benefit.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I think every conversation I've had with this suggests that human intelligence and an overlay is required when you're using this
kind of functionality. But there is a humongous difference between ChatGPT 3.5 and ChatGPT 4 from what I've seen.
So I think a lot of that crazy, I'll call it or the hallucinations in your word are filtered out, which is important. Why would check, which is I
think what caused a bit of a shakedown in sort of the educational players sector say that their service, their homework help surface has already been
threatened by ChatGPT.
If to your point, this sort of overlay of human intelligence is required? I guess the danger that they foresee is that people don't care about that, or
they perceive ChatGPT to be enough. And why should they pay for a product like yours, if there's an inferior but alternative option available? Andy
how do you fight that?
BIRD: Well, we're in a completely different business to check. And the answer is somewhat in your question there in the homework help business and
amongst others. And if you are looking for those types of answers, then there is an alternative, which ChatGPT with its inherent flaws, or our
though, as you say, GPT 4 isn't much improved on three.
We're in the learning business. We're actually on the other side of the coin. We're about helping individuals improve their lives. And you can only
do that by learning. And it takes work and what you can do with ChatGPT and others, is actually help that process.
You know, one of the great tools we're working on is about personalizing that learning experience for individuals. Because we all learn differently,
we all learn at different rates. And we all come across different problems in our learning journey.
And so using these algorithms to help you, as a student, overcome some of those hurdles is more of the area of focus plus the purity, as I say, of
the actual learning materials that we're utilizing in these models.
CHATERLEY: Yes, and that point, I most definitely take, given the experience that I've had with some ChatGPT functionality. Would you agree
that this is perhaps the biggest disrupter, for better or worse, that the industry is faced, however, you've just got to know how best to harness it.
And I think we're all guessing at this stage.
BIRD: Yes, I think this is one of the few examples where sort of artificial life is running faster than real life. And I do think that we need to be
cautious. There have been many others that have spoken about some of the challenges that technology like this can play.
We want to lean into it. But we also want to be cautious because I think being thoughtful about how you utilize this technology and really we're a
company built around trust is very important. I do think and you're seeing the EU, the UK and the U.S. governments and others look at potential
legislation in this area.
I think there's an area around personal privacy and personal data that's also been maybe used to train some of these models. I think that is
something that you're going to see come into effect as sort of the real world catches up with the phenomenal advances in this technology.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and we welcome that. I think that's a great quote, artificial life is running faster than real life and we need to be
cautious. Andy great to chat to you we'll talk again soon thank you! Andy Bird there CEO of Pearson!
OK, coming up here on "First Move", debt reset and other key date in the U.S. debt ceiling drama fast approaching amid some early signs of
negotiating progress global investors certainly watching very closely and others too, the latest after the break.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move"! U.S. stocks are up and running this Monday on a beautiful morning here in New York City. Blue skies above
but mostly red arrows on Wall Street after a losing week actually for both the DOW and the S&P 500 another busy week ahead for investors too including
key earnings from some of the major U.S. retailers, all this after a big drop in U.S. consumer sentiment data on Friday, the latest round of U.S.
debt ceiling talks on tap for tomorrow too.
And Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen saying over the weekend "I'm hopeful. I think the negotiations are very active. I'm told they have found some areas
of agreement progress, perhaps but still a long way to go". Christine Romans joins us now. Christine, Happy Monday! And welcome to the show.
I think there's a desire at times to roll your eyes where self-imposed debt ceilings are concerned and the drama that takes place as a result of it.
But for small businesses, for individuals, they kind of have to prepare an act like something bad is going to happen. And we're already seeing it.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: We absolutely are already seeing it. I talked to Jean Marx, who is an advocate for small
business this morning. And he told me already his many of his clients are securing alternate lines of credit.
They're looking for other sources of income, especially clients, his clients who are working way downstream of federal contractors, right? So
we're talking about small businesses that might have a piece of that federal dollar.
And they're looking to make sure that they've got enough money laid away for payroll. So if you're trying to make sure that you can handle payroll
for the next month, say that means there are other investments or other things you're not doing with that money, right?
And there's just kind of a cautious crouch that starts to creep in. And that can be bad overall for the economy, even if they figure this all this
nonsense out. Now, you showed that Janet Yellen, quote, you know, found some areas of agreement.
And then this morning, we heard from Kevin McCarthy on the House Speaker, who said, and I quote, we're still far apart. He doesn't think the
President takes it serious. So you still have that political overhang here of a House Speaker who barely got the speakership who is now trying to
really keep this alive this.
I guess, this controversy with the White House I mean, he's against a lot of the legislative achievements of this presidency, Kevin McCarthy and his
you know, the people who really support him don't agree with what the President's doing so you really still have a big political story here.
CHATTERLEY: The luxury of being the biggest economy in the world and having the deepest most liquid bond market is that you can play with fire like
this and people put up with you quite frankly.
If we compare and contrast with the emerging market countries what we see when they're approaching default, or there's nervousness around it is that
the front end of the interest rate curve spikes higher, interest costs get higher.
And it sort of ties to what we're hearing from bank CEOs like Jamie Dimon saying that we're having war rooms over this, because we know rising
interest rates have created a problem in the American economy. And if you see that kind of spike, the sort of filter effect of that could be pretty
ROMANS: It really can. And remember, in 2011, they did raise the debt ceiling before the so called -- state by I think two days, and it still
raise borrowing costs by $1.3 billion on that pile of, of national debt that was sitting there.
So even this, theater that happens now more frequently than you would like this theater about too much debt raises the cost of the too much debt. I
mean, you're hurting yourself. So I think what's happening now that I think is interesting, Julia is they're talking about budget, and they're talking
about maybe kicking the can down the road.
There, maybe they'll see some agreements of future spending cuts, maybe they'll be able to claw back some unspent COVID spending. Maybe those are
the signs of agreement that Treasury Secretary found compromise right areas, some areas of agreement, she said, so for what it's worth. I'll
believe it when I see it.
CHATTERLEY: I just got wrapped there. Whether you did -- I wasn't saying anything, but it was my fault. Too long a question. Christine, we love you.
Thank you Christine Romans. That's it for the show. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next, I'll see you tomorrow.