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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Zelenskyy in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia on Surprise Visit; Oxfam Criticizes G7; Behar: We need Sincere Action from the G7 Nations; Turkey's Erdogan Vows to Keep Cutting Rates to Fight Inflation if Re-Elected; New Warnings about AI-Driven Cyberattacks; Study: New York City is Sinking Under Weight of Skyscrapers. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired May 19, 2023 - 09:00   ET




JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to "First Move", fantastic to have you with us for a TGIF edition of the program or should

we say TG7IF leaders of the G7 nations beginning their summit in Hiroshima, Japan and announcing fresh sanctions against Russia. Ukraine, President

Zelenskyy expected to be there this weekend too following his attendance at the Arab League summit in Saudi Arabia.

The very latest on the diplomatic offensive ahead of his nation's military counter offensive just ahead. Plus, an interview exclusive Turkish

President Erdogan speaking to CNN ahead of that critical Presidential runoff vote next weekend. Erdogan defending his view that cutting interest

rates helps team inflation and reiterating his opposition to Sweden joining NATO among other things.

Also floors in the polls, Fed Chair Jerome Powell said to discuss the U.S. economy today, amid fresh concern that the Fed might raise rates again in

June despite some hopes for monetary mercy. Is it a pretend pause? Or was it a brief pause with a clause? Investors now seeing a near 40 percent

probability of an additional interest rate hike as the U.S. data remain strong.

Fed rates uncertainty not denting investor sentiment for now, sell in May and go away not yet holding sway as investors anticipate a debt ceiling

deal. Europe in the green as you can see there with the German DAX near record close, U.S. stock market futures also on the rise to with the S&P

500 sitting at nine month highs.

The U.S. House Speaker reiterating that a deal to avert some kind of default is possible by the weekend. We've had that before, though not a

moment too soon if they can do it. New data shows the U.S. have less than $70 billion on hand to pay the bills about half of what it had last week.

And bullish sentiment to end the week in Asia too, Japanese stocks finishing up more than 30 year highs with the NIKKEI now up 18 percent year

to date. Strong earnings news giving the bulls there a boost, the new Central Bank Governor also saying today those rates will remain ultra-low


Japan's perennial pause continues. No pause, however, in the G7 talks in Japan, and that's where we begin today's show. And it's effectively a G7

plus one with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy en-route to Japan this weekend.

It's his first trip to East Asia since the Russian invasion began some 15 months ago. And just hours ago, the G7 leaders agreed to place further

sanctions on Moscow. Marc Stewart is in Hiroshima, and he has the latest.

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning Julia, it's certainly a lot to discuss. Let's first talk about President Zelenskyy's visit here to

Hiroshima. Of course, it is symbolic. It's his first visit to Asia since the invasion last year. It also comes at a time when Asia realizes its own

vulnerabilities about the geopolitical situation in this region because of what has happened in Europe between Russia and Ukraine.

It's also a chance for President Zelenskyy to establish a relationship with world leaders outside the G7. Leaders of India, Indonesia, and Brazil are

invited guests here. This will be a chance for President Zelenskyy to talk about them especially perhaps any kind of economic support that they are

lending to Russia and perhaps efforts to quash that as well.

Another big point of discussion here today has been sanctions and G7 leaders have agreed to really beef up sanctions in places that really

matters in conflict with Russia. Sanctions involving things such as construction, transportation, manufacturing, that's where the direction of

that conversation is going.

Also in the days ahead, we could hear some more conversation about other forms of assistance to Ukraine, a lot of conversation about F-16 fighter

planes, also anti-missile systems that have proven to be quite effective in defending Ukraine against Russian forces. Again, Julia, another full day of

conversation expected tomorrow, back to you.

CHATTERLEY: And thanks to Marc Stewart there. Now Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has already arrived in Saudi Arabia to attend an Arab

League Summit. Kyiv official says the goal of the trip is to strengthen ties between Ukraine and the Arab world. And joining us now is Jomana

Karadsheh from Istanbul, Jomana, always great to have you with us.


The wealthy Gulf nations have provided aid to Kyiv but they're also trying to find a delicate balance between maintaining ties with Russia of course

and Vladimir Putin. It's a delicate balance?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a very delicate balance. And it is a region, Julia that has really tried to stay out of the Ukraine war as

much as possible, try to stay on the fence. So it's actually very interesting and bold move by the Ukrainian President showing up in Jeddah,

showing up at the summit and addressing those leaders who are gathered.

There trying to appeal to them for more support, also, bringing with him the leader of the Ukrainian Muslim community, that's a tours from Crimea,

and reminding those gathered that they also have been suffering from the annexation of Crimea from Russian aggression.

And, you know, President Zelenskyy, in his address, Julia, did really address the issue of how some of these countries have been dealing with the

Ukraine war, very much, not holding back in his criticism, saying that, you know, some of you here among us are some who turned a blind eye to

Ukrainian suffering.

And he's urging them to, "take an honest look", and he says, even if you have a different view on this war, even if you call it a conflict, he says

that most of us here I hope, are for peace, calling on them and urging them to join the formula for peace that Ukraine has put forward saying that he

needs their support in freeing Ukrainians from Russian jails.

Of course, Saudi Arabia, which is holding and hosting this summit, has played a key role recently, in the past few months in mediation efforts of

brokering a prisoner swap deal. And very interesting, Julia, not only are some of the countries that are gathered, they're close allies of Russia or

have close ties, economic military ties with Russia.

You've also got the Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad, who is there for his first Arab summit in more than a decade. This is the first time that Bashar

Al-Assad is being brought back officially into the Arab and regional fold as you're seeing this wave of normalization with the Assad regime that is

taking place in this region.

So it's very interesting to see President Assad the closest ally of Vladimir Putin, in this region at that same summit. We saw him shortly

before President Zelenskyy addressed those attending. He was in the room. We will wait and see when he addresses the summit what Bashar Al-Assad will

have to say but I have to tell you, that a lot of Syrian activist, Syrian refugees across this region.

People watching Bashar Al Assad, they're at that summit just arriving today to handshakes and red carpet, welcome. It is being described as a painful,

shameful and shocking day for so many Syrians who, you know, in the words of one activist say he should be welcomed at the ICC in The Hague.

Not at an Arab summit, after all the atrocities that have been committed over the past more than decade of this war, where he was, of course, backed

by Vladimir Putin, backed by Russia, and the reason he survived that war. And is there attending as a Syrian President today, Julia?

CHATTERLEY: Yes, how things change. And of course, he's now being clapped by the audience. We've just been watching live pictures there. Jomana, as

you were speaking, the President speaking there and now is being clapped by the audience. Great to have you with us, thank you, Jomana Karadsheh there.

Now, as you mentioned, G7 leaders are stepping up sanctions on Russia. They're also set to discuss the possibility of supplying fighter jets to

Ukraine. Nic Robertson is covering all the developments for us from Eastern Ukraine. Nic, good to have you with us and both aspects of this, I think

will please President Zelenskyy, when he arrives in his at those talks on Sunday.

I think it was the President of the European Council that said Russian diamonds and not forever. So you get a sense of where they're targeting in

terms of further sanctions, but also perhaps the suggestion from the United States that they won't block allies' provision of F-16 jets to Ukraine too,

both good news I think for Zelenskyy.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, I think from the Zelenskyy's position, a lot of the sort of tidy up sanctions that are going

on right now really should have been done at an earlier stage has been calling for, you know, to fall for sanctions from the get go and, you know,

round after round after round of sanctions does come from the European Union.

And we've just heard more sanctions coming from the British aid 86 different entities, Russian entities being sanctioned for their involvement

in stealing Ukraine's grain and for military imports that are supporting Russia's war. So the screws in terms of sanctions are being tightened but

for Zelenskyy what are you really needs in the fight with urgency are weapons ammunition supplies.


We've heard from European leaders over recent weeks that those supplies will be sped up and every Ukrainian commander you talked to here will tell

you that he needs more ammunition. He could do more with more ammunition. So I'm sure Zelenskyy is carrying that message, but of course primary is

getting the big stuff.

And that's the F-16 fighter jet. And again, this has sort of been slowly choreographed in the background, the latest really not have a head here to

what's going to happen. President Biden saying that he wouldn't block allies supplying F-16 fighter planes to Ukraine in the future but rewind to

earlier this year February in the U.K. British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, saying that the U.K. would train Ukrainian pilots on F-16, when there was

not even an F 16 on the table to be donated to Ukraine.

So the movement was there. And then this last week in Iceland, Mark Rutte, the Dutch Prime Minister along with Rishi Sunak, initiating a group that

they will be leading to help Ukraine with procurement of F-16s to help Ukraine with training of F-16 pilots.

So Zelenskyy's people are saying, look, he needs to be in the room, he needs to be there when these things are discussed at the G7. He has views

and arguments and the situation Ukraine to present face to face. That's why he needs to be there. So undoubtedly, he gets to walk away with more good

news on the F-16. He will be happy.

But his view that absolutely needed this minute right now in the fight as is everything because the stakes are so high, because quite literally, he's

aware that if the this war, as it is now stalemates out this year, that's the Russia's advantage. He has to take territory back now this year.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. And your point on the sanctions very valid to tidy up sanctions and the point that these should have been done earlier, and some

of these loop holes and gaps closed earlier. And, Nic, I just want to get your take, because obviously critical to the end game.

Can I call it that in terms of the conflict in Ukraine is the role that China will or won't could, play in terms of mediating and perhaps putting

pressure on Russia? It's interesting, once again, to hear the different tones, sort of behind the scenes and the perspective and some of the

Europeans that they don't want this G7 to be an anti-China G7. And that this was different calibration of how China was mentioned at this meeting

and referred to.

ROBERTSON: Yes, I mean, I think guess what, for world leaders, all of this is happening all over the world. And all these things come together and

collide in different places. I think it's important, perhaps in that context, that the G7 doesn't all become about Ukraine or become about

dumping on China that Zelenskyy will address the G7.

At its later phase, it's being held in in Japan, that's an important symbolic message for Japan for the region. So shaping the message, not to

be too negative on China is important. But let's rewind to what Zelenskyy is doing with the Arab League. He is shaping opinion, he is playing the

long game, and he will be doing that at the G7 as well.

By shaping opinion, he hosted the Chinese envoy in Kyiv, just a couple of days ago, as well as days before meeting with European leaders. In the Arab

League meeting, he is fully aware that many of the country's leaders sitting around the table will have been sympathetic to President Putin to


That it's Russia, that's the victim that it's Western hegemony, and that's NATO, that's attacking Russia. That's a perception that is widely held and

understood. Zelenskyy understands that you change perception slowly, trying to do it slowly with China, Xi is much closer to Putin than he ever is to


But just changing that perception, and why do I say the long game, because ultimately peace will be on the table. And Zelenskyy will want as many

influential voices around that table on his side. Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman will be one of them, who have been particularly trying to engage as

in a peace role in Ukraine, with Russia at the moment.

So this is the long game and getting it right at the G7, getting it right at the Arab League. That's what Zelenskyy is doing. But going back to what

we said before, the immediacy as the weapons, the long game is peace shaped where Ukraine wants it. That's long term diplomacy that's playing out.

CHATTERLEY: And those face to face meetings, such an important component of that, Nic, great to have you with us, thank you, Nic Robertson, there. OK,

coming up here on "First Move" why the head of the international charity Oxfam is calling the G7 nations hypocrites. That's next.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". $13 trillion that's what G7 nations owe to developing countries in aid that was promised but never

delivered, as well as funding for climate action, according to the global charity Oxfam International, just to put that in some kind of perspective.

Japan's GDP last year was around $5 trillion. Germany's was around $4 trillion. The Head of Oxfam saying, it's time to call the G7's hypocrisy

what it is: an attempt to dodge responsibility and maintain the neo- colonial status quo. Joining us now Oxfam's Interim Executive Director, Amitabh Behar, great to have you on the show, sir.

Those are punchy words, what you're saying is many decades ago, the G7 nations or the richest nations promised $100 billion worth it a year in

development aid, they didn't pay up and worse, actually, they're now demanding money back in interest payments.

AMITABH BEHAR, INTERIM EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF OXFAM: Absolutely, as in 1970, the G7 countries decided that they would do 0.7 percent of their GNI as it.

In 2020, it was decided 100 billion will go in for climate action. And what we see is a huge deficit there. So pretty much you know these commitments

that have been made, that that money is still owed by the G7 to the low and middle income countries.

On the other hand, what we're seeing is that they're constantly being demanding debt in the name of debt, almost 232 million going back to these

G7 countries and the average bankers on a daily basis for the next five years. So that's really the contradiction we're looking at. And it just

doesn't work in the moment of this folly crisis. This is another way of continuing with the colonial model that we have.

CHATTERLEY: It is a poly crisis. But I guess you could also argue that some of these rich nations and certainly the G7 nations are the primary funders

of organizations like the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, just a pull to examples. And that does mean money is flown to these countries.

Does that, at least in some way mollify you over what you perceive to be still owed or it would you just say, look, it's an ongoing dereliction of

duty in many ways, particularly where climate change is concerned, because these are some of the biggest polluters too.


BEHAR: Absolutely, you're absolutely right as an if you just look at the climate action the low, the middle income countries actually, again the G7

countries owe them almost $8.7 trillion in terms of the climate action, the crisis that these countries have had to face in the last decade or so.

So even if you look at the IMF, the World Bank, the resources that are going are essentially in the form of loans, and very often, then you're

looking at a debt crisis in these countries. Whereas if you actually look at debt cancellation, there's a possibility that these resources then can

be invested in education, in health, in roads, infrastructure, agriculture, and then that could be so critical.

In these times when you're looking at a hunger crisis, you're looking at a fuel crisis you're looking at inflation, cost of living crisis. So it's

pretty much really turning the case, the case has to be right, I think G7 is doing the right thing by focusing on climate on hunger.

However, the solutions are very, very inadequate as we need to really look at turning the case and start looking at what the G7 owes, actually, to the

low and middle income countries.

CHATTERLEY: If you could be at that table, that's going to take place because I've been talking throughout the show already that Presidents

Zelenskyy is going to be there are to your point and you made it in your first answer a poly crisis taking place. It means challenges for developed

nations as well as developing nations.

What would you say to these leaders, and also the citizens? I think of these countries, because in many cases, these elected officials are chosen

by their citizens to help them individually. And they do have to make choices.

BEHAR: Absolutely, as I would say that these countries need to recognize that we are living in the era of poly crisis. And we have an economic

system, which is essentially completely rigged in favor of the super-rich. And that's unacceptable as and just to give you again, another figure from

our Oxfam report.

All the new wealth created in the last one decade, two thirds of that went to the top 1 percent. So it's very clear that this is not working. This is

also the time where we have seen extreme wealth and extreme poverty rise simultaneously in the last 25 years.

So at this juncture, debt cancellation is what I think is absolutely critical for these countries, and for the citizens also to build pressure

on looking at solutions, bringing inequality, the unjust changing the unjust economic order. And I would actually say that there is growing

traction, even for paying fair wages.

So investments in social security, investments in education, investments in health, on the other hand, willingness to tax your super rich, you know,

again, just to give you a figure, almost like 900 billion could be raised, if you just do a 2 percent tax on the millionaires and 5 percent on the

billionaires in the G7 countries, and that can transform the realities of this world.

And the whole idea of 2030 as the Sustainable Development Goals, Zero Hunger could be achieved. So it's not a pipe dream. But we need serious,

sincere political action from the G7 countries.

CHATTERLEY: You know, I could ask you all sorts of questions based on that answer. But I want to be specific, actually, because I was at the Spring

Meetings of the IMF, and the World Bank, and they were talking to some of the biggest creditor nations, including China about debt write offs, as you

mentioned, and it was a response.

But then we're talking about debt suspension, which is not ideal I agree, but it's something. What role does China play in this particularly in the

global south as an enormous creditor and under, in certain cases, very lacking in transparency terms to the debt? Amitabh, what would you say to

China because they're not at the G7 table? But they're also and can play a huge role in this too.

BEHAR: Sure, what I would say as an Oxfam's message is loud and clear. And it is to all the countries which are rich countries, which are giving

credit, so called credit to the poor countries. And I think it's important to recognize, as I said, I started by you have to turn the case, as it's

not just about China, as in look at what happened during the pandemic.

We were looking at holding of vaccines, and that even during this completely unprecedented crisis was unacceptable.


So I think it's about fundamentally changing what the political priorities are? And I was also there during the spring meeting and one of the things

Oxfam is saying that shared prosperity is not the right goal. It's inadequate. We need to be looking at the questions of inequality also as

front and center for the bank to move ahead.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I couldn't agree more with you. Amitabh will stay in touch. Thank you so much for your perspective and reminding us that many

important discussions need to take place at the G7 and trust is required to be built, I think, to your point about the vaccines. Thank you, sir.

BEHAR: Thank you.

CHATTERLEY: Coming up, after the break, I determined man Turkish President Erdogan's unorthodox. I could call it other things approach to inflation.

In our exclusive interview he insists rate cutting is the answer to high inflation. That's next.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move" Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is found to continue with his policy of cutting interest rates if

he's re-elected as a way to reduce the nation's 40 to 50 percent official inflation rate. The country goes to the polls on May 28 in the Presidential

runoff vote. Our Becky Anderson asked him about that policy in this exclusive interview. Just take a listen.


BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Do you concede that your determination to reduce rates in order to push growth in this country is

failing the people of Turkey and will you change course? Can the people of Turkey if you're re-elected expect to change and economic policy?

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, TURKISH PRESIDENT: When it comes to economic policy, we are following quite a different trajectory than the rest of the world.


ERDOGAN: I have a thesis that interest rates and inflation they are directly correlated, the lower the interest rates, the lower the inflation

will be. So this is my thesis, the interest rate is the reason and the inflation is the consequence. And I'm an economist. And as an economist

during my prime ministry, I have done it.

ANDERSON: But your economic policy, your decision to cut rates as opposed to raise rates, which is the orthodox way of cutting inflation, comes at a

huge cost to the people of Turkey and to your credibility quite frankly, on the international markets.

Experts worry that your current policies will continue to hurt the lira, could lead to hyperinflation, economic instability and financial turmoil.

You argue that your policy is good for trade, for tourism and for foreign direct investment, but that is risky at best and reckless at worst, that's

the view of the international market. So I ask you again, can Turkey expect to change in economic policy if you're reelected?

ERDOGAN: We have seen results in terms of the steps that we have taken. In this country the inflation rate will come down along with the interest

rates, so that we will come to a point where people will be relieved, I say this speaking as an economist, this is not an illusion.

ANDERSON: No change in policy if you're reelected?

ERDOGAN: Yes, absolutely because I got results. When I was Prime Minister, thanks to the implementation of this policy, I will see results again. And

I know I will see the results again. Russia is doing exactly this.

They're reducing the interest rates, and they are trying to shorten up the inflation rate as well. This is what we are going to observe. Please do

follow me over in the aftermath of the elections. And you will see that the inflation will be going down along with the interest rates.

ANDERSON: I mean, officially, the inflation rate is around about 40 percent at the moment, some say it could be as high as 100 percent. But again, do

you not worry about the short term impact to the Turkish economy? It's a genuine question?

ERDOGAN: We have surmounted challenges in the past. We are strong right now as Turkey, per capita income used to be around $3,600. But right now, it's

reached $10,650 per capita income. This is showcasing something.

The GDP per capita reached that level, the purchasing power of the people increased. And this number is bound to reach $15,000 in the next few

months, and we are going to move on even stronger images.


CHATTERLEY: And Becky joins us now from Istanbul. Becky brilliantly done, actually, the exchange of information because you were making the point

very correctly, that you can reduce interest rates to help boost growth in the short term with a weaker currency. But the inflationary says the policy

is not working. But nothing's changing until a real crisis happens a bigger crisis.

ANDERSON: Well, this is the point, isn't it? And is how big does the crisis get Central Bank is in full defense mode ahead of this runoff trying to

avert a further weakening of the Turkish Lira as which as -- I was discussing there with President Erdogan is causing a real swindling cost of

living crisis here at home.

And a real credibility gap on the international markets with international investors. But for those who might have hoped to have heard more, sort of,

I don't know chastened President Erdogan, somebody who was sort of, you know; understanding that he's an author, excuse me. You're going to have to

let me have a glass of water sorry.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, don't worry.

ANDERSON: I'll come back to you.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, grab some water as well. I can, is somebody there to bring it to you? Because I can -- I can buy some time, to your point, investors

were hoping for a chase. And as you were going to say, President Erdogan there in light of the election result and sort of not winning, as I'm sure

he would have hoped, in the first round, and they certainly didn't get it.

Because we might -- have we managed to get some water or should we? OK, we're going to buy her some time. Becky, are you back? She's back. I guess

what I will do is make --

ANDERSON: Yes, you have got me back.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, well done for handling that. I guess the question is to draw the distinction between the opposition leaders and how economic policy

would change under them and that they would perhaps say, look, the central bank has to be independent.

We have to allow interest rates to rise simply to get inflation under control, as you said, above 50 percent, perhaps even in unofficially

hundred percent according to some sources and I've heard the same would be different if the election result is different?


ANDERSON: And you're making a really good point. You're making a really good point, and I'm back, there you go. It's one of these things. You're

making a really good point. The opposition has said that they want to see an alternative vision when it comes to the economy here.

And they would want to go back to a much more sort of orthodox economic policy with an independent central bank. After all, President Erdogan has

changed his Central Bank Governor four times since just before 2019.

So they want a return to independence. They want to return to sort of the independence of state institutions as a hole in this alternative vision for

the opposition here. And they are saying that this unorthodox policy simply doesn't work, either they say in the short term, or in the long term.

And I think what's really important to note here, that the opposition is talking about this across the board. They're saying they want to return to

independent state institutions. I'm sorry -- I'm going to have to --

CHATTERLEY: I know. Don't worry. I was -- I was tempted, you know. It was phenomenal. You talked about Russia. We're going to show more of it in the

next hour. Becky, I'm going to do the tea's view. Yes, go get a cup of tea. Water doesn't cut it and thank you for fascinating.

ANDERSON: Will do.

CHATTERLEY: Becky Anderson there thank you. And as I mentioned, you can see the full interview on "Connect the World" she's a trooper, right after this

show. Coming up after the break, we've all had emails from scammer's phishing for passwords, littered with typos and grammatical errors. They'll

be harder to spot though and -- thanks to the dark side of generative AI the details next.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". The Wall Street bulls hoping to end the week with a Friday flourish modest early gains today for the major

averages stateside amid hopes for a debt ceiling deal in D.C.

I'm getting repetitive on that. Stocks in the news include though Morgan Stanley, CEO James Gorman announcing he'll be leaving the role within the

next 12 months to become Executive Chairman also heavy machinery make a DEERE one of the early winners.


DEERE saying have no fear. It's raising profit forecast due to strong orders. And from DEERE to a social media Odia a group of TikTok users now

suing the State of Montana over its vote to ban the app, they say the ban the first in the nation is a violation of the First Amendment.

The Montana Governor says the ban is needed to keep user data out of Chinese hands. Remember TikTok is owned by the Chinese firm Bytedance and

if you remember on the show yesterday, we were saying around 20 percent of the population of the state is apparently on TikTok.

Alright, let's move on whether it's phishing for personal data credit card fraud or an AI driven boot attack. The global cost of cybercrime could

reach $8 trillion this year, that's according to an estimate by cybersecurity ventures.

In the UK alone, one estimate says consumers lose nearly $3,000 a minute to online fraud. The cost clearly already eye watering but just wait until

generative AI gets going. Those badly worded emails full of spelling and grammatical errors could soon be a distant memory. Of course, the warning

coming from Signified it's an end to end fraud protection company that says it can help retailers detect cybercrime with minimal impact on the consumer


And joining us now Raj Ramanand and he's the CEO of Signified, Raj, great to have you with us. That just gave us a flavor of the cost of this kind of

cybercrime just allow us to look through a prism of what this looks like when you enhance activity with generative AI. How bad could this get?

RAJ RAMANAND, CEO OF SIGNIFIED: First of all, Julia thanks for having me on the show excited to be here. You talk about this in a really interesting

way. Phishing is an end to a sort of means if you want to call it the other way and what are people trying to actually accomplish?

They're trying to be able to get your financial information so that they can commit fraud. And for most people, they don't really know that

ultimately, when somebody buys something online with a stolen credit card, the retailer is responsible for the liability associated with it.

And so because of that, retailers put in a lot of friction in the checkout experience, so that ultimately, they don't just decline the bad people and

turn them away. But they're turning away a lot of the good people. And so you're talking about the 8 trillion in fraud, but there's actually

trillions of dollars being lost in turning away good people. And ultimately, that's where AI can help in turning over some of those on

uncertain transactions.

CHATTERLEY: That's so interesting. So that's using AI to fight AI. So there's two points there. To your point, there's the last business as a

result of already trying to filter out what might be fraudulent activity, but also the fact that actually identifying fraudulent activities going to

get harder.

I mean, for me, I get text all the time saying your Netflix account has been canceled because you haven't paid here's this link. But the grammar,

the sentence structure, there's words missing, I know its phishing, same with emails, I know, it's just one path.

But for me, this is one where if those emails can be very quickly sorted out with generative AI, and we've seen this already being used, people are

going to fall for it. This sort of worries me. This one access point in particular worries me.

RAMANAND: You're right. I mean, we're all used to the Nigerian scams from back in the day where somebody says they're caught in a little cave

somewhere, and your mom needs to be able to bail you out. And I think that's a common problem.


RAMANAND: But if you recall, one of the major issues with it was always the grammar and the text and people quickly recognizing that this was bad. But

with a lot of the large language models out there today, you can quickly ask a question to the model to be able to say something like, hey, tell me

how to write this in the format of it coming from a great company as well.

So it looks like a customer service email. And that then translates into the ability to make a, you know, a wrong decision, effectively giving you

your information, your financial information to you -- for you to then go and commit fraud online.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and then they use your credit card, and I'm sure with generative AI can make all sorts of purchases before you've even spotted

there's a problem. OK, so you've also laid out why retailers need your help or should want your help.

One because they're liable and two because they want to also make sure that they're maximizing business and transactions that they do that aren't

fraudulent. What specifically do you provide? And how do you prevent that sort of blockage for customers that do want to purchase and reduce


RAMANAND: It's a great question. And so there's two parts to this. When you think about it in the bigger scheme of things, the reason that most of

fraud is missed today, effectively causing more declines of good people is because the systems or the financial systems between the retailers the

financial institution and the consumer all not connected together.


And so fundamentally, if you change the question to ask what is different the card present rails, the world in the offline world where I go buy

something offline, is the similar rails that we use for the online world. And over the past 20 years, nobody has actually gone back and changed the

way the online systems work.

And so by the time a transaction, somebody, let's say you go buy something online and try to complete the transaction, by the time the bank makes a

decision on that, you have very limited information to be able to say this is Julia and I can therefore say she's a good person.

And so what happens is the banks pass on the liability all the way upstream back to the merchant. And so what you're trying to do, number one, is

connect all these old systems back together to be able to say, right at the point of the retailer, I can tell you that this is Julia and therefore I

don't need to go off and make these wrong decisions about turning our way.

So that's number one. Number two, is bringing together all the data across these networks to be able to predict what is good and bad. And that's where

the AI components come together to be able to meet with a real element in the business.

CHATTERLEY: OK. Yes, so predicting what might be suspect even if on face value it doesn't look so. What do you think of an AI pause? What do you

think about the some of the biggest players in this industry saying that we need to pause to understand how to regulate this to have a conversation

about it? Does that make any sense to you, as someone who's sort of actively engaged and understands the workings and the speed at which I

think generative AI progress is moving?

RAMANAND: Yes, there's a good way to look at that. You take a leaf off of the, say, the power generation industry, you've got solar panels, and

you've got your nuclear reactors. Ultimately you don't have to regulate the solar side of the world, as much as you have to regulate the nuclear


Simply because there's a lot of bad that can come out of a nuclear reactor that you have to regulate for and so there's an absolute need to look at

this, in the same light AI can have good and bad. And so you have to look at regulating and I think it's absolutely important.

But the second piece that people are not talking about as important in the AI world today is that just because you regulate the good people, you don't

have control about regulating the bad people. And so as much as you assume you get that done from the, you know, the good states and everybody else,

there's going to be these bad states that are still out there mining the information using these large language models to be able to commit fraud.

And if you lose time in this regulation, you allow the bad guys to win. And so effectively, the ways I think about it is you have to regulate but you

have to think about this in a measured way. So that you don't let the bad get ahead of the good in the mix.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, in terms of your business as well, the bad guys only have to be right once you have to be right every single time in order to stop

them. It's sort of asymmetric risks, which we have to think about broadly and on an individual basis as well. Are you profitable as a company, how

quickly you adding companies that are going, oh, my goodness, we need to protect ourselves?

RAMANAND: Well, there are two things that drive this effectively. One is the E-commerce world is growing at an extremely rapid pace. No matter what

we think when you look at the bigger scheme of things, people are going to continue to buy online. And that is the future of where the world is going.

And so we're part of that journey.

The second is the current state of the world if you look at the economy and where it's going e-commerce has started to grow closer to about four and a

half percent a year. The fraud pressure online is growing at 19 to 20 percent on an annual basis.

And if you look at the types of fraud that are happening, mostly consumer abuse is on the rise. A lot of good reasons for it, people are out to jobs.

People are looking for ways to kind of make a living.

And sometimes, you know the fraudsters find a way to leverage themselves in that and so as these two things rise, one e-commerce and the amount of

fraud in the world continues to go our business just isn't the right place at the right time to make that happen for them.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, companies just have to recognize the problem and be willing to invest it at a difficult economic time too. Raj great to have

you with us thank you, the CEO of Signified there. All right coming up, traveling by private jet without the cost to the climate Dubai based firm

Jetex says it may have the answer that story next.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". Call it Jetex regret if you're lucky enough to be able to afford a private jet perhaps you're not so keen

though on the potential environmental impact. One private jet firm wants to change all that and make the aspiration more sustainable. As we hear in

today's "Think Big".


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Whether spending millions of dollars to cruise the high seas in a mega yacht or flying across the skies in a

private plane, the Jetex lifestyle is all about glitz and glamour. But when it comes to the environment, there are some things that even money can buy.

Well, not easily.

SUZANNE KEARNS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF AVIATION UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO: We are seeing a lot of people choose to fly privately. But I think we need to

embrace the concept of sustainability. So when you think about this in the context of private aviation.

You can imagine all of the different applications of social and economic benefits that the industry is producing. But in order to embrace the goods,

we need to understand and reduce the negative environmental impacts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Adel Mardini is the Founder and CEO of Jetex which has more than 30 terminals around the world. The Dubai based

company is working alongside dozens of other big names in aviation to meet an ambitious goal set by the International Air Transport Association of

reaching net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

ADEL MARDINI, FOUNDER AND CEO, JETEX: The first thing that comes to my mind, my family, my children, my grandchildren, like OK, how the world will

be for the coming 20, 30 and 40 years? And how we can work together with everyone to make the climate change less effective for our life and for our


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Private jets can be 5 to 14 times more polluting than commercial planes and 50 times more polluting than trains

according to data from European nonprofit transport and environment. But small steps are slowly leading to big changes in this sector.

MARDINI: We already started to convert all our terminals around the world to the green terminal. We'll start with four locations to be fully green.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Jetex unveiled plans last year to launch what it calls the world's first fully pure green private terminal at

Berlin's Neuhardenberg Airport, which is home to one of the biggest solar firms in Europe.

The company also now rents out planes that aren't as harmful to the environment while exploring the use of electrically powered aircrafts and

through a partnership with Finnish Oil Company Nestie it's deploying sustainable aviation fuels made out of renewable waste and residual raw


KEARNS: That we expected maybe 60 to 70 percent of emissions reductions will come from the integration sustainable aviation fuels. But today,

accessibility is limited so it's not available at every airport. We would love to see private aviation to move more quickly on the adoption of

sustainable aviation fuel because that could create economies of scale that could make it more affordable and easier for the other sectors to then move

to integrate sustainable aviation fuels.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): So while the luxury of flying privately is an experience that's likely to top off the bucket list of most

travelers, companies like Jetex now carry the ultimate responsibility of making sure the convenience of private aviation can also be sustainable.



CHATTERLEY: And finally on "First Move" mostly New Yorkers will tell you that they've had that sinking feeling at one time or another turns out

though they may be right. Here's the live look at Manhattan, which is apparently struggling under the weight of itself.

That's according to a new geological survey that skyscrapers are so heavy, they're weighing it down at a rate of around one to two millimeters a year.

So I make that five centimeters every 10 years. That makes sense. No two centuries every 10 years oh my goodness. The combined weight of all these

buildings is nearly 1.7 trillion pounds.

And I have on good authority that's 114 million elephants. The study comes as the Army Corps of Engineers tries to find ways to prevent the city from

being submerged in future natural disasters. I think the water levels raised 22 centimeters since 1952 so none of this is good news sorry for

that on a Friday.

That's it for the show. You'll be pleased to know if you've missed any of our interviews today there'll be on my Twitter and Instagram pages search

for @jchatterleycnn. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next and I'll see you on Monday.