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First Move with Julia Chatterley
U.S. Futures Lower as Investors Eye Debt Ceiling Talks; Verified Ticket Accounts Share Fake Image of Pentagon "Explosion"; Adobe: AI Art Tool used to Generate more than 100M Images; New Book Highlights Private Companies' Drive into Space; Hearing Expected for WSJ Reporter Evan Gershkovich; Source: Billionaire Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are Engaged. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired May 23, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to "First Move", fantastic to have you with us on this fully engaged program. In addition,
debt ceiling negotiators still not ready to commit talks are ongoing we hear progressing bit by bit. Investors though remain immune we hope that
optimism proves legit.
And in banking Jamie Dimon sees no retirement yet it's no time to quit. And a wedding in space perhaps if Jeff and Lauren see fit the latest reports on
the Amazon billionaires bliss coming right up. And speaking of Earth orbits, we've got the author of the new book When the Heavens Went on Sale.
The misfits and genius is racing to put space within reach. It's an exciting and amazing character driven look at the new space age and the
startups that are transforming the business of the final frontier, some of whom we've spoken to. And we'll also survey the highly challenging AI
driven frontier with investor and startup Founder Scott Belsky.
He's currently the Chief Strategy Officer at Adobe and Adobe's new Firefly software has text to image tools. You can take a look at this that can
transform but also authenticate. AI altered or created imagery now that's key. It's a timely conversation in light of the market rattling fake
Pentagon explosion image scare that took place on Monday.
Just to reiterate, that's not real we've labeled it. Now no rattle on Wall Street pre market global stocks remaining pretty calm even as investors
await those debt ceiling talks. Resiliency, I think is the operative word here. The NASDAQ 100 in fact hitting a more than one year high during the
session on Monday.
And beyond the debt ceiling uncertainties as I mentioned JPMorgan CEO, Jamie Dimon is warning again at his company's investment date event. The
bank lending continues to tighten and that's a big economic headwind. But still, he foresees that perhaps interest rates could still rise as far as 7
He also rebutted questions about his future. He's going nowhere for now. And we are going to repeat ourselves by discussing the latest on the debt
ceiling talks, with U.S. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy expressing some optimism after meeting with President Biden on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I felt we had a productive discussion. We don't have an agreement yet. But I did feel the discussion was productive in
areas that we have differences of opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: The two sides are working to strike a deal with just nine days left until a potential U.S. debt default. Lauren Fox has all the details.
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Julia, nine days to go and still no significant breakthroughs in these negotiations despite the
fact that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy met again yesterday in the Oval Office with President Joe Biden. They made clear after that meeting that
they are going to continue to have these negotiations.
Last night, White House negotiators and Hill negotiators got back in the room around 10 pm met for about an hour before the White House negotiators
departed Capitol Hill. It just shows you they are working around the clock. But they remain very far apart. When it comes to how much they each believe
they should be spending on the federal government.
You have Republicans arguing they want to stay as close to their bill that they already passed as possible. That would fund the government in FY 2022
levels with a small increase over a six year period. Then you have Democrats who made an offer over the weekend that they would be willing to
freeze this year spending levels for two years that was a non-starter with Republicans.
So both sides remain largely at odds on that central question of government spending. That is before you get into some of the ancillary issues that
they're dealing with on work requirements on permitting reform on clawing back some of that COVID money.
Meanwhile, time is starting to run short, you have nine days, you have potentially at least three days that this would take to get to the House of
Representatives if a deal could be reached and potentially even longer in the U.S. Senate. That just doesn't leave you very much time to figure this
CHATTERLEY: And for more on this. Matt Egan joins us now, Matt, good to have you with us. You and I have discussed in the past that investors
generally meet this kind of brinksmanship with a big yawn because I think for the most part, the assumption is that politicians wouldn't be stupid
enough to allow the United States to ultimately default on its debt.
But I do think perhaps a few angry calls from pensioners. 401k owners, even donors, for some of these politicians might help focus minds. What do you
MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: I agree and completely, Julia, you know it's amazing how chill Wall Street has been about this debt ceiling situation.
You know the U.S. stock market the S&P 500 is near the highest levels of the entire year the NASDAQ is up by 21 percent so far this year Fear and
greed, the index, the CNN gauge of market sentiment that is getting closer to extreme greed.
So just looking at the market, you would never know that there's this ticking time bomb going on, you know, threatening to crash the whole
economy. Now, here's the problem, though. You know, Congress, in some ways, is kind of like a toddler. And I've learned from personal experience that
it's really hard to get a toddler to do anything that he or she doesn't want to do, you kind of have to make them want to do it.
And so how do you get Congress to want to address the debt ceiling? Well, to your point, I think some market turbulence would certainly get voters
and perhaps more importantly donors upset enough to call their lawmakers and put some real pressure, you know, light a fire underneath Congress.
Now no one wants to see, you know a market panic here because that would hurt the nest eggs of real people. But right now, we sort of have this
feedback loop where investors are betting that this is just going to get taken care of. So markets are calm. Lawmakers see that markets are calm, so
they're not in a rush.
And it goes on and on and on. And so you kind of need something to break that cycle. Moody's Analytics Chief Economist Mark Zandi, he told me that,
you know, unfortunately, he does think it's going to take some market turmoil before Congress addresses this. And Ed Mills of Raymond James, you
know, he summed it up best he said, what worries him most right now, is that there's not enough worry.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, to worry is the lack of it. Well said, Matt Egan, great to have you with us. Thank you. Now on a "cause of deep concern", the Kremlin
speaking out about Monday's brazen cross border attack on Russian soil. The governor of the Belgorod region says counterterrorism operations are
ongoing, and he's urging residents not to return to their homes.
A group of anti-Putin Russian nationals are claiming responsibility. Ukrainian officials acknowledged the attack but denied direct involvement.
Meanwhile, Moscow says the region was hit again overnight in drone strikes that damage several private homes.
CNN's Fred Pleitgen joins us now live from Kyiv, Fred, great to have you with us. Sam Kiley was saying to us yesterday one of the few areas it seems
where the Ukrainians and the Russians agree that these are sort of anti- Putin Russian forces that are active on Russian soil. What more do we know about them? And Pat, how many there are?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I would say that both of them they agree on that. But certainly the Russians still are
very much blaming the Ukrainians. It was quite interesting, Julia because a couple of minutes ago, there was a briefing by the spokesman for the
Russian Defense Ministry that Igor Konashenkov, where he claimed that the Russians had now pushed out as he put it, all of the remaining attackers
back from Russian soil onto Ukrainian soil.
And the Russians, they're also saying that, as he put it, they liquidated 70 of those attackers, now they call them nationalists invading from
Ukraine. Of course, that's something that is, key because it shows that the Russians are blaming Ukraine for this attack.
In fact, also, one of the things that the Kremlin said earlier, is they said that they believe that the Ukrainians are behind all of this because
the Ukrainians are obviously facing as they put it, as the Russians put it, defeat in Bakhmut. And they say that they want to distract from that.
I was actually able to speak to the National Security Advisor of Ukraine earlier today. And he did also acknowledge that these are groups of
Russians that here inside Ukraine, they fight on the side of the Ukrainian Military of the Ukrainian defense forces, but inside Russia, they are
essentially independently doing their own thing.
So the Ukrainians are saying they are not behind this. They have nothing to do with this. They are saying, first of all, this shows that there are big
divisions inside Russia, and certainly people inside Russia, who do not support Vladimir Putin. So the Ukrainians are essentially saying that they
are not behind this attack of course, whether or not the Russians will believe that it certainly does not appear that.
At this point in time is currently the case the Russians for them. Of course, this is something that is I wouldn't necessarily say embarrassing,
but certainly is a concern of for them as once again, there was a cross border incursion, that it took a very long time, if it is indeed over now
for the Russian security forces to actually come to terms with.
In fact, that same Governor that you were quoting before, he was also saying that the people that are in that territory who normally live in that
Torah territory still have not been able to return to their homes. They are being urged not to go to their homes yet, because those sweeps are still
So definitely, this is a big security incident that happened on the territory of the Russian Federation that Russia is blaming Ukraine for but
that the Ukrainian say they have nothing to do this because these are Russian citizens operating inside Russia, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, a clear embarrassment for the Kremlin. CNN's Fred Pleitgen, live for us there in Kyiv. Thank you.
Coming up now on "First Move", bend or maybe bench those brushes Adobe putting the arts into artificial intelligence with no traditional art
expertise required a dog in a Santa suit perhaps that can be done see you anyway -- you would go and win anyway, we'll explain next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". It's not often that you see this kind of excitement as a company's annual general shareholder meeting. Take
a look at this video just into CNN of climate protesters who stormed Shell's annual shareholder meeting in London.
They're demanding the company stop investing in oil and gas extraction. Security staff shielded the Shell Chief Executive and the firm's board of
directors, as you can see here, and they ejected the demonstrators who clearly were in control for a portion of that meeting.
Wow! OK, now you're about to see on what you're about to see is a fake image which cause some real confusion. This image purporting to show an
explosion near the Pentagon was shared by multiple verified Twitter accounts on Monday, including an account falsely associating itself with
Bloomberg News and a real major Indian TV network.
That was later retracted. Experts believe it was likely created using artificial intelligence. There was nothing fake, though about the impact it
had on the stock market, at least temporarily. Shortly after the images started circulating on Twitter, the DOW Jones average fell around 80 points
between 10:04 and 10:06 Eastern time in the morning, and as you can see, a few minutes later, they recovered.
Joining us now CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, Donie, at this stage AI could do a better job than I'm doing of talking in straight sentences. But for those
that are concerned about the overlay of artificial intelligence on social media, there's real concern here and this story has everything.
And AI created picture of an explosion there a badly designed Pentagon, not the Pentagon building a random verified Twitter account that shared it and
then amplified by Russia today, Ouch!
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think it really kind of says a lot about you know the kind of current information or misinformation
ecosystem we're all living in. Look, there's two big parts of this one, as you say is, you know, Twitter's verification process.
Look, I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we said Twitter was this incredible platform before Elon Musk came along, and there was no
misinformation that was not the case. But it did have those verified those blue ticks. And people will say, you know, they meant nothing. They were a
But they weren't quite important for news organizations and also from just public services like emergency services, because what they meant was
Twitter has verified the person who is running this account or organization that's behind this account is who they say they are.
That's no longer the case on Twitter you can get a blue badge now just by paying a few dollars a month to Elon Musk. And that is how this Bloomberg
account, fake Bloomberg News account started all of this yesterday. Now does look like this was a coordinated action because other verified counts
also shared the fake image at the same time.
Then, of course, there's the image itself, which you can see there at pretty badly AI generated image. Experts have told us that it has all the
signs that it was generated by AI, folks that are familiar with Washington, D.C., or the Pentagon would recognize that is not the Pentagon in the
But nonetheless, look in the panic of the moment with some verified accounts, a shoddy enough AI generated image, it was able to have real
world impact, at least in the stock market. Finally enough, -- , Russia state media happened to pick it up and then deleted their tweets. But it
did make its way onto a major Indian television news network before they also had to retract the story.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and you don't even need to see the images to see a headline that suggests that there's been an explosion at the Pentagon for
people to start reacting and that to filter across social media too. This is just the thin end of the wedge.
Donie, obviously, this is one aspect a second is the United States Surgeon General coming out today and talking about. I'm going to get the quote
right, "profound risk of harm" for children, calling attention to the lack of research into the impact that social media has on our young people
wherever they are in the world, quite frankly.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And then we offer the Surgeon General speaking recently here as well about just an epidemic of loneliness in America, which, you
know, I think social media is contributing to as well. I thought what was interesting about the Surgeon General's advisory today.
As a kind of turns the debate back a little bit onto the social media platforms, because for a long time, the social media platforms have tried
to argue to say, well, there isn't research, there isn't enough research or evidence to show that our platforms are really harming kids.
Part of this advisory today kind of said, well, we don't have a lot of research that says it's good for the meter. And I mean, I think as it's
outlined there, the negative impacts that this is having on teenagers is clear. But, what really is going to happen off the back of this, it's
difficult to see.
That, we know the platforms are putting in place kind of, you know, timing, the restrictions on the amount of time that people can spend on the
platforms, but I mean, that barely works for adults, never mind children.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, -- was saying to us last week that it changes the way people think we don't understand why but we know it does. And until we
start to understand that the limits simply aren't enough in my mind, Donie O'Sullivan, great to have you with us. Thank you.
O'SULLIVAN: Thanks Julia.
CHATTERLEY: OK, these are some of the negative consequences of image altered by artificial intelligence. Though there can be huge creative
benefits too, the software giant Adobe, is making it easier than ever before to enhance images with lifelike effects.
This is Adobe Firefly, a powerful AI driven text to Image tool. In a nutshell, someone with vision perhaps but without traditional artistic
skills can unleash some serious creativity. Adobe sees fireflies one of the most successful product launches in their 40 year history, with over 100
million images created in the Firefly site since March.
The company says it's handling AI images responsibly though by including a digital label identifying whether it was created by humans was assisted by
or even generated by artificial intelligence. And here to discuss further Scott Belsky is Chief Strategy Officer at Adobe.
He's also Executive Vice President of Design and Emerging Products. Scott, fantastic to have you on the show, oh, we have a lot to discuss. But let's
talk about fireflies to begin. I think the beauty of this from a cost perspective is it seems to be incredibly easy to use and the images as we
were seeing they're incredibly lifelike.
SCOTT BELSKY, CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER AT ADOBE: It's exciting. I mean, we're entering an era where people are going to be generally more creatively
confident. People now will have the skills that they have the ideas to express themselves visually, which is exciting and then for the creative
pros of the world.
They have tons more surface area of discovery. They save a ton of time and ultimately I think this will raise the bar of digital experiences generally
that people create in Photoshop.
CHATTERLEY: And what feedback have you had because I mentioned 100 million images have been created since the launch back in March? That's a lot of
BELSKY: It's a lot and it's fun to see customers, both new customers coming in and you know, kicking the tires, so to speak. Sometimes novelty precedes
utility for people, they just want to see it or sort of play and see how this works. And then, some of our longtime customers are realizing that
their workflows become far more productive, and they just can explore more little ideas that, you know, might become core parts of their workflow in
CHATTERLEY: There's not been a sort of launch without complications. There's been questions over how the artificial intelligence itself sorry,
cut my teeth in gear, how the artificial intelligence has been trained? What images have been used? And what's collected in order to create the
That you're providing how that data is filtered for hate violence, adult images, for example, and whether what's created can be protected in some
way by copyright? Scott, I'm throwing it all at you, tell me how you guys manage these things?
BELSKY: Yes, well, it's this new era of possibility and with it comes a lot of responsibility. And under the hood, there are a lot of different parts
that we're thinking about. And, you know, in doing things very purposefully, first of all, you know, how these models are trained matters.
When you talk to our customers, I mean, they want to have commercially viable output. They want to be able to do something with what they made.
And that means that the training material for these models can't be copyrighted, you know, can't have stuff in it that ultimately can't be used
to train the models that these customers are using.
There also are a lot of safeguards in place underneath to prevent generation of content that, you know, that would be really troublesome. So,
of course, this technology is not perfect yet, but the teams have done a lot of work to pressure tests and to also build systems in place.
Now, the other important thing, which I'm sure we'll get to, is ensuring that the provenance of this content, knowing how it was made and how it was
edited, and who made it, you know, that's also really important in this world where, you know, we can no longer believe our eyes, which is in some
ways, exciting, it allows people to create all sorts of things, but it also carries a number of risks with it that we have to outfit our customers to
CHATTERLEY: Yes, you said it perfectly we can no longer believe our eyes. And in some ways that's incredible for the images that you can create. It's
a huge problem. In an example, like we saw yesterday with a fake image of an explosion at the Pentagon.
Scott, knowing that you were coming on to have a conversation with me today, what did you think when you saw that, and I think you highlighted
the point that there has to be some distinction online of what has been enhanced or created by artificial intelligence versus not?
BELSKY: Well, I think we're entering an era where instead of this notion of trust, but verify it's going to become verified, then trust. We need to
look at content, and we need to be able to verify how it was made, where it came from, how it was edited before we can determine whether we can trust
it or not.
And so one of the one of the things we've been focused on for the last four years or so is this content authenticity initiative, and specifically, this
technology called contract credentials, which is open source. Now there are over 1000 participants, including a number of other creative tools,
companies and camera companies, the New York Times number of other media outlets as well.
That is onboard with this idea that when content is created, using tools, content, credentials can be added. So you can actually see who made it, how
was made, what generative AI capabilities were even leveraged. And all of our products that incorporate Firefly add content credentials to media by
And so this idea is in the future when we see these sensational images or scary images, and we need to now determine whether we can verify this
content before we even trust it or share it or report on it. Our hope is that a content credentials becomes kind of the mainstream part of that
narrative and that decision making.
CHATTERLEY: And there's no way to remove that authenticity marker that says this is generated or adapted by AI.
BELSKY: That's right. So this technology is actually a cryptographic sort of metadata that is added to assets as it's made. And of course, a lot of
people can create content without it. And that makes the provenance lost and the asset and so you can no longer kind of check it and verify where it
was made and how it was made.
And, you know, throughout the supply chain of content that's created in companies and for individuals. And so there will be tons of content, of
course, without content credentials. The idea, though, is that we'll start to differentiate between stuff that has that provenance that those
credentials associated with the asset and the media that doesn't.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, empowers the good actors. And I love the fact that you've made this open source. So good actors all have free access to this, which I
think is really important too. But to your point, I mean, if we look at the content that's created now and out there, what 0.00000001 percent of this
is going to have that marker on it to say, look, this has been generated or enhanced by AI.
To your point, do you think that's enough? Because soon we'll be able to look at this and go OK, well, this is not verified and therefore to your
point verify before you trust versus trust but verified there's just a lot of content and not a lot of time.
BELSKY: Yes, I think it's a great point. And this is also a part where we're going to have to kind of evolve in the way we look at content and
interpret content. And I remember that hearing the story of when the radio was first kind of mainstream, and people started hearing, you know, when
people tuned in and heard War of the Worlds being done on radio.
A lot of people were like, oh, my gosh, the world is ending. And then, of course, people learn, wow, there's this thing called fiction and on radio
that's going to be pervasive and then people start to ask that question, wait, how do I actually trust this? How do I actually know this is real
before I react to it?
So that's some conditioning that we all have to get used to as this technology becomes more pervasive. And you know, that's why we as a company
are trying to be leaders in this space of conduct credentials and making it open source and getting tons and tons of other folks on board, because we
have to start to empower legitimate outlets of media and people who are creators to add content credentials, so we can start to differentiate
between a lot of this stuff.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, there's a few ways in here this we as individuals, as we as in you as a company, what about regulators, Scott, would you like to see
your product, Firefly regulated, in order to ensure that it just doesn't add to the noise as important as the markers are?
BELSKY: Yes, no, I think that the first of all, the governments have to be involved in this conversation, and we're working with the U.S. and the EU
and the U.K. And we're, you know, one of many companies that are having these conversations right now. And so I think that it's important that
governments are helping drive this conversation, also, understanding how this technology works.
You know, that's one thing we've been trying to do is just too also educate, you know, a lot of the folks that we work with how this technology
works. And you know I don't know exactly how the policies will evolve. I do know that a lot of this technology, of course, is, you know, widely
available in various places.
And so we have to involve our approach, and there has to be sort of widely available technologies like content credentials for people to start using.
And, you know, these conversations are just getting started, though.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I like that, you say that, though. I don't know. And I don't think lawmakers know either, and I don't think anybody in the
industry as much as we're seeing these products develop, knows what the answer is. But to your point, at least we're having the conversation, Scott
Belsky, Chief Strategy Officer at Adobe, great to chat to you sir, thank you. We're back after this.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". U.S. Stocks are up and running on Wall Street this Tuesday and my little Tuesday turbulence as we await the
latest developments in those debt ceiling talks just nine days left to go before the U.S. could run out of the money to pay bills and then default on
interest payments on its debt. That's a worst case scenario.
Stock markets remain though relatively calm, despite the uncertainties but plenty of volatility in the bond markets with yields on one month U.S.
treasury surging by more than 5 percent in the previous session that denotes nervousness.
Now Washington Watcher and a friend of the show, Greg Valliere, saying in a note today that we're only halfway to a debt ceiling deal, but that an
important agreement on spending caps might be insight. He said that could increase the chances of an overall agreement so signs of optimism there
Now, the crew of the AX II Mission is nearing the end of their first 24 hours aboard the International Space Station. Here they are claiming out of
this SpaceX capsule floating out actually a couple of hours after it docked with the International Space Station, this time yesterday.
The crew which includes three paying customers is the second all private mission to the International Space Station, marks on new space age, which
has been defined I think by a bunch of very excitable billionaires, but also includes a whole wave of innovation and creativity that has grown
outside the influence of the traditional government aerospace complex.
And that's something our next guest understands very well. Not only did he write the biography on Elon Musk, Tesla, SpaceX and the quest for a
fantastic future. But his latest bestseller profiles for trailblazing startups Planet Labs, Astra Rocket Lab, and Firefly.
Ashlee Vance is the Author of the new book "When the Heavens Went on Sale: The misfits and geniuses racing to put space within reach". Ashlee,
fantastic to have you on the show, you can be a genius and a misfit, quite frankly. And I think we've seen a bit of that. Welcome.
The book begins with the SpaceX team and it was many years ago and what feels like a desert island. It was actually the wrong Island, launching
rockets. And I think losing a bit of hope. I think the beauty of this book is its character driven. It's funny, it's amusing, but it's also helps you
understand, I think that it's just way bigger than the quest for Mars and the Moon. There's a lot going on.
ASHLEE VANCE, AUTHOR, "WHEN THE HEAVENS WENT ON SALE": Absolutely. Yes, I mean, this book really goes away from the governments of the billionaires
to look at what I describe as the wild west of space. And it's this focus on the area right above us low earth orbit, which we are filling with
thousands upon thousands of satellites very quickly and ushering in this whole new era of commercial space.
CHATTERLEY: You talk about and I mentioned four companies operating in low Earth orbit in particular, and some of those names will be familiar to my
viewers, Planet Labs, CEO Will Marshal features in the book and he's been on the show as well.
Different characters, different motivations, I think, and no real understanding, at least in the beginning, and you portray this so well of
really what the commercial or the financial opportunity is. What do you see as the driver like what connects these individuals?
VANCE: Well, I think they do come at it -- they do come out from different approaches. Will Marshall like you've mentioned, he's this idealist, and he
wants to study the Earth with imaging satellites. There's a guy Max Polyakov, who's this Ukrainian behind Firefly, he sort of had the Soviet
Space Program and his blood, his parents worked on it.
I argue in the book, you know, that we have these idealistic, these passionate motivations that have been in space for a long time, but some of
this is changing and it is now just becoming a capitalist exercise to try and make money. And so I you know -- I tried to document some of that
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and it's very amusing as you do it. There's sort of as you portray a preoccupation with building rockets, and clearly bringing the
cost of rockets down has been fundamental I think and essential, but to your point where the money is what we're talking about with satellites in
low Earth orbit?
VANCE: That's funny everybody wants to bake a rocket.
CHATTERLEY: We can't digest that. There were a lot of men there too.
VANCE: Yes. Yes. Yes. This is like what the venture capitalist -- they just want to have a rocket but you know, even for SpaceX, which is the best that
flying rockets I mean the value of the company is tied up in its Starlink Space Internet System.
This is like a telecommunications data system. And that's where the money is. And we're seeing the rocket companies evolve to pick up more of these
tasks as well. And all of these businesses overlap now, but exactly where the business case makes sense is still to be determined.
CHATTERLEY: But, you know, the Planet Labs came to my attention through Microsoft, when they were taking photographs in Ukraine, and potentially
providing imagery that would be used in war crime trials, for example, or whether buildings inhabitable and can be made inhabitable and how quickly?
They have a constellation of satellites that you describe as being eyes in the sky effectively, all over the world. I mean, this is technology that
the United States government that China that Russia doesn't have too is this dramatic evolution of power, commercial or otherwise, to the private
VANCE: We've seen this huge shift that's taking place very rapidly. This is what I wanted people to do, from 1960, to about 2020, we put up 2500
satellites in the last three years, that's gotten to 10,000, and it's going to go to 100,000. And almost all of those are commercial satellites.
Whereas you know, the past it was government scientific stuff. And so this balance of power is flipped very quickly, it has some risks to it. In the
case of planets, we also saw images leading up to Ukraine of Russian troops amassing on the borders. So we sort of have this level of truth that's not
controlled by a government.
And I think it's this new, very exciting era, we're going to have to figure out how to manage all of these satellites, but we're going to be, you know,
just awash in new information and communications, the likes of which we've never seen before.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's funny, I've read just about every interview that you've done on this book. And you've always mentioned this statistic, and
to reiterate to my viewers, the potential in the next 10 years to have 200,000 satellites in low Earth orbit compared to 2500 that we had.
I mean, this is a mind blowing statistic. So I can see that it's something that for you is just and for all your experience of writing and
understanding this sphere, and this particular space and space age, the time that we're in, what does that mean, actually, to you and to entities
VANCE: Yes, I mean, like I said, it's very exciting for me, and I think most of this stuff is optimistic. I just didn't think people were paying
attention to what's going on. These numbers are just sitting out there.
The rockets are going off all the time, I think, because commercial space had been this thing that people had chased for a while, and we had a few
false starts. So I'm not sure people really understand. And maybe they see a SpaceX launch every now and then.
But this is like a worldwide race. There are rocket companies everywhere. There's satellite companies everywhere, whatever reality used to exist with
a handful of governments controlling all this stuff is definitely over.
And so you know, I want people to before it's kind of too late to talk about some of these things to have a discussion and just see how this
business was built in. And the very exciting characters in it far beyond the billionaires.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, but the opportunities as well, I think for humanity that's been created and the idea of having all these satellites around and you
talk about this too broad Biden to access around the world potentially, but also for bad actors.
There are also opportunities in what we're creating as well. I want to ensure that we help people that may consider reading this book to help them
understand why it's also an amusing read. I mean, there are some very fun characters in there and big personalities and you connect what is this new
And these new personalities with some, like, General Pete Wardon (ph) who is running Black Ops operations then found himself at NASA. He met biased
Will Marshall, who we love a Planet Labs and referred to himself as Darth Vader. I mean, some of these, some of these characters are lively, to say
VANCE: Absolutely, I mean, that's what really drew me in doing this in the first place. These people were sort of larger than life and unexpected. I
think most of the space stories we've ever heard it's always our best and bravest, you know pilots and our smartest engineers from MIT and Ivy League
And, and it seems a bit buttoned up. And this reality of commercial space is quite different. I mean, you just have high school dropouts you got
welders, Texas, a lot of young 20, something military people, and new cast of characters.
CHATTERLEY: And actually, I don't want to bring it back to the billionaires but I'm going to and that's the thing with Elon Musk, because dramatically
successful. But some of these characters, you're sort of looking at him and you're saying.
You know, these guys are responsible for putting satellites and rockets into space and at times, their personalities. I'm not sure what I want to
trust what they're doing? Just in the last 24 hours, we had an AI we think altered image of an explosion at the Pentagon. It wasn't real.
It was re-tweeted by a verified Twitter account. And we've talked a lot about the complexities of this on the show and the challenges. At the same
time as SpaceX Crew Dragon has landed at the International Space Station, it's like the two greatest extremes of whomever and whatever Elon Musk is,
actually you know him best. You think and have said Twitter's a waste of his talent. What do you make of what we're seeing?
VANCE: Well, where, you know -- with Elon, we're seeing a lot of predictable behavior. Although SpaceX is remarkably consistent for what
they do, I mean, I think, the bigger picture when you link these two things up, and some of the themes in my book.
We're seeing just what's been happening for the last 20 years, which is the technology companies now have the power of nation states. I mean, SpaceX
has better rockets, more satellites than any nation, and companies like Google that are building these AI systems have larger computers than any
And this is the era that with the engineers has become the wealthiest, most powerful people in the world. And they're sort of creating a world in their
image. And this is what we're dealing with now.
CHATTERLEY: Are we safe in their hands actually?
VANCE: Wow, that's a big bold question.
CAHTTERLEY: It's my job.
VANCE: I mean, it's interesting, because if we look at something like Ukraine, where SpaceX was supplying the Starlink internet system, and still
is to the Ukrainian military and government, again, this is a company that has the power of a nation state.
It is at that Elon Musk, you know, sort of waves there were times when he wanted to pull the system away, because it was expensive, and there was
nothing to replace it. So I think we're in this is what I argue in the book as well.
We're just in for a very chaotic time when traditional power structures are getting turned upside down. I tend to be an optimist overall, maybe it is
naive. But I traveled the world and looking at technology, and I just always come away fairly optimistic of what's coming.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I'm optimistic about the technology. It's the handling of it and the use of it. That makes me very cautious. To my question, I think
very quickly, didn't he threaten, or at least consider suing you Elon Musk; by the way, perhaps it means he loves you?
VANCE: For a time we've perhaps --
CHATTERLEY: Just thought I should mention. Ashlee great to chat to you thank you so much and it's a fun book, "When the Heavens went on Sale"
Ashlee Vance there. OK, we're back after this stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". This hour jailed American Journalist Evan Gershkovich is expected to appear in court in Russia for a
hearing on extending his pretrial detention.
The Wall Street Journal Reporter was arrested in late March and accused of spying a charge the U.S. government and the Wall Street Journal strongly
denies. CNN Contributor and Former Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty join us now.
Jill, we are now I believe expected to see him as I mentioned, he's been in prison for two months. So I think firstly, very important to see just
simply how he's doing physically but can we expect and is it safe to assume that his pretrial detention will be extended?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBITOR, RUSSIAN AFFAIRS: Well, judging by what's happened so far, Julia, I'd have to say yes, unfortunately, he's already
been denied bail. They've offered bail to get him out, at least into house arrest, instead of being in a prison conditions in -- of the prison are not
And you know the concern, obviously, is for his health. But if you look at what's been happening since he was arrested, there are really bad signs. I
mean, they have refused the Russian government or the prison system has refused consular access. That means that U.S. diplomats who want to see him
and assess his situation and talk with him have not been allowed to do that except I think it is probably once so far.
And even the reasons that the Russian government has given for denying consular access are things like the last time it was well Russian
journalists who were covering the Foreign Minister's trip to New York to the United Nations didn't get their visas. And that of course raises the
question, what does that issue have to do with a charge of espionage?
So it's a very difficult situation. And speaking with diplomats who know the case and have dealt with previous cases, they say that at every turn,
Russia is slowing down the process deliberately to drag this out for whatever their purposes are.
CHATTERLEY: Fair point. Jill Dougherty thank you so much for that. We'll see what happens later this hour. In the meantime coming up, Bezos wedding
bells report say the billionaire and partner Lauren Sanchez are about to tie the knot the very latest on this very engaging story after the break.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". And wedding bells for a billionaire her source telling CNN that the Amazon Founder is engaged to
his partner Lauren Sanchez. The couple had been together since 2019. No details so far on how the engagement happened or who asked who? Chloe Melas
joins us now.
Chloe that was not what was written. Congratulations to Mr. Sanchez. This really is a, I think a meeting of equals and you obviously had the chance
to sit with them together. And I remember watching that interview that you did with them and thinking, hm.
CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: You know I was caught off guard Julia, by the announcement of the engagement. But you know, they have a lot
to celebrate and they have really perfected this beautiful partnership that they have together. And we've been seeing the pictures of them on Jeff's
now their mega yacht, cruising the seas and here's a look back at their relationship and my interview with them.
MELAS (voice over): Billionaire Jeff Bezos is engaged. A source close to the couple says the Amazon Founder and his partner Lauren Sanchez, plan to
tie the knot. Though no details about the proposal or any wedding plans have yet been made public. Sanchez, a philanthropist and former award
winning journalist and Bezos first revealed the relationship in 2019.
JEFF BEZOS, EXCUTIVE CHAIRMAN, AMAZON: Lauren is the most generous, most big hearted person that you would ever meet.
MELAS (voice over): Last year I interviewed the couple at their Washington D.C. home for their first ever joint interview, revealing details of their
lives together that previously hadn't been shared by the private couple.
MELAS (on camera): I'd love to know, what does a typical Saturday night look like for Jeff and Lauren?
LAUREN SANCHEZ, PHILANTHROPIST: We can be kind of boring.
BEZOS: You you're never boring. That's not true. I can be boring.
SANCHEZ: It's really I would say normal. We have dinner with the kids. That's always fun.
MELAS (voice over): Bezos has four children from his previous marriage with Mackenzie Scott and Sanchez has three children from previous relationships.
SANCHEZ: It's seven between us. So there's a lot of discussion and then we watch movie and --
BEZOS: A typical Saturday night probably a movie.
SANCHEZ: By committee. It takes a long time to find that movie. Once you say.
BEZOS: Yes, we probably spend more time picking the movie than we need to.
SANCHEZ: But I think that's the fun.
BEZOS: It is fun.
MELAS (voice over): As the Founder of Space Company Blue Origin Bezos was aboard a 2021 flight into space and back on Blue Origin's New Sheppard
Rocket. Sanchez, also a helicopter pilot said she's ready to head to space one day.
BEZOS: She wants to go.
SANCHEZ: I'm ready.
SANCHEZ: No, he's already been.
BEZOS: We'll see she -- I think she has some ideas about who she wants to go with. We'll see.
SANCHEZ: I think it'd be a great group of females.
MELAS (voice over): A source familiar with the making of Bezos's as mega yacht says the billionaire had a figurehead at the bow of the ship made in
the likeness of the Norse Goddess Freya with a striking resemblance to Sanchez, a grand gesture that may hint at a grand wedding to come.
MELAS: I mean that's the big question. When is the wedding Julia? Who's going to be invited? You know, this couple, they are doing so much for
good. You know, they have the Bezos Academy. Lauren Sanchez is an integral part in Jeff Bezos's philanthropy with the Bezos Earth Fund. And, you know,
they clearly mix business and pleasure really well together.
CHATTERLEY: I love that they were she was like, he's kind of boring. He was like, you're not boring. It's like, what did what do these people have to
fight about? Chloe were you caught off guard what you said that at the beginning actually caught my attention, why?
MELAS: Because they've both been married before, right? They both have, you know, grown children. They've been dating for several years. And it's
working so well. And they're so in love. You know, I think I always might have thought that they might get married down the line.
But sometimes you see powerful and celebrity couples who just, you know, don't end up getting married. Look at Goldie Hawn and her longtime partner.
So I think that, you know, they don't, you don't always see them walk down the aisle, but they are so in love, I got a chance to really see them off
We were hanging out in their kitchen in Washington, D.C. and they were holding hands and you know, kind of snuggling with each other finishing
each other's sentences. And it's the truth. I mean, I think that this is I really believe that this is the real deal and they truly they just work
well together. They love each other. And they have the same vision about the Earth and their goals to try to use the wealth for good. So I think
that this is a perfect union Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's funny, isn't it? I was just thinking and she was saying about all the reasons why it works. In that case, why not get
married? There's sort of a traditional feel to that if you think you've found the right person. Yes, get married. Are they going to get married in
space Chloe? That's the question. She didn't seem that happy with that? -- She was like, oh my girls.
MELAS: Maybe they're going to get married on the moon --
MELAS: -- with his new contract right?
CHATTERLEY: Long engagement.
MELAS: Blue Moon. Yes.
CHATTERLEY: We want the details. Yes, we want the details.
MELAS: Well, I will be getting that you know me. So I say stick with me and I'll get you the details.
CHATTERLEY: I have all confidence in you getting the details and getting them first. Chloe, we wait and see. Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: Chloe Melas there. Thank you. That's it for the show. If you've missed any of our interviews today, there'll be on my Twitter and Instagram
pages you can search for @jchatterleycnn. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson, it's up next, I'll see you tomorrow.