Return to Transcripts main page
First Move with Julia Chatterley
Blinken Meets with Xi, Wraps Talks in Beijing; At Least 5 Palestinians Killed in Jenin Firefight; OECD: Growth is Improving but Fragile; U.S. Secretary of State Blinken says he Accomplished what he set out to do in his trip to Beijing; Father of Starvation Cult Member says Leader Urged Followers to "Start with the Children"; New Robots, AI in Focus at Viva Tech in Paris. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired June 19, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNNI HOST: A warm welcome to "First Move", great to have you with us this Monday. The U.S. Juneteenth holiday well underway, but we
still have the rest of the world to survey and a busy hour ahead on the program, including relations reboot, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken
and Chinese President Xi holding the highest level talks between the two nations this year.
Both sides citing progress in their attempts to break the diplomatic ice. Secretary Blinken describing the talks as candid and constructive and
reiterating that the United States is not trying to contain China's economic growth, a live report just ahead.
And today's meeting comes amid signs of economic slowing after China's initial post lockdown growth spurt and some disappointment at least for now
over broader stimulus pronouncements. Goldman Sachs lowering its GDP estimates for the country to 5.4 percent this year. That's down from an
early at 6 percent rise.
And that brings Goldman Sachs numbers in line with the OECD the Organization for Economic and Cooperation and Development says its latest
note that while the global outlook has improved. Risks remain including the impact of still high inflation and rising interest rates.
Its views on China jobs and the potential productivity impact of artificial intelligence. Of course, we couldn't escape that one. Coming right up the
OECD Secretary General Mathias Cormann will also discuss their new focus on women's economic empowerment.
And in the meantime, a smattering of red arrows across China, Hong Kong and Japan today the NIKKEI leading the declines falling 1 percent but still
sitting around those 33 year highs. Famed investor Warren Buffett denouncing after the close that Berkshire Hathaway will invest more money
into Japan's five largest trading houses.
Buffett's bullishness helped jumpstart the rally in Japanese Stocks earlier this year. And Europe softer after a winning week that saw the XETRA DAX
over in Germany hitting record highs. Wall Street of course closed today for the Juneteenth Federal holiday, but certainly no day off the U.S.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken.
And the future of humanity hinges on China and the U.S. getting along. That's what China's President Xi Jinping told U.S. Secretary of State
Antony Blinken, according to Chinese TV, as the two superpowers tried to manage tensions and turn the temperature in relations down.
For his part Secretary Blinken said both sides agree they need to stabilize their relationship. Earlier he met with China's top diplomat for around
three hours. The State Department called it a candid and productive meeting. Blinken says a good relationship is in the world's best interests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We have no illusions about the challenges of managing this relationship. There are many issues on which we
profoundly even vehemently disagree. We will always take the best course of action to advance the interests of the American people.
But the United States has a long history of successfully managing complicated, consequential relationships through diplomacy. It's the
responsibility of both countries to find a path forward. And it's in both our interests and the interests of the world that we do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And Anna Coren joins us now from Hong Kong. Anna, the discussions were described as healthy dialogue among many different
adjectives and phrases used. I think, perhaps the key takeaway, the positive aspect of this is that actually Secretary Blinken managed to meet
face to face with President Xi.
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Julia, we didn't know if this meeting was in fact going to take place. Obviously, it was going to
depend on how Antony Blinken's meetings, went with the Foreign Minister Qin Gang yesterday and then today, the top diplomat, Wang Yi.
In total, he spent about 10 hours talking to both gentlemen. So I guess it was going to depend on how those talks went as to whether he was going to
sit down with the Chinese President, but that did take place in the Great Hall of the people this afternoon. They spoke for about 35 minutes.
And, you know, by all reports, it was a positive meeting. You know, I think what we need to remember is that Antony Blinken not only is he the U.S.
Secretary of State, but he is also one of Joe Biden's closest and longest time confidence.
So whatever he was going to be saying was coming directly from the U.S. President. We heard from Joe Biden over the weekend saying that he hopes to
meet with Xi in the coming months. Now, Julia, we just heard from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they held a briefing with journalists and they
said that Blinken's visit marks a new beginning.
Now, this is interesting language, because, you know, up until this visit, it was quite hostile towards the United States, obviously, you know,
relations are at their worst ever. So to hear this coming from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that this visit marks a new beginning, it's certainly
very positive. But why don't we now listen to what Xi Jinping had to say, after their meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
XI JINPING, CHINESE PRESIDENT: The Chinese side has made our position clear, and the two sides have agreed to follow through the common
understandings President Biden and I had reached in Bali. The two sides have also made progress and reached agreement on some specific issues. This
is very good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COREN: This is very good. So that is positive news. This was always about re-establishing lines of communication, Julia, you know, they were never
going to thrash out and solve the thornier issues, and the ones that deeply divided United States and China. But as we know, these are the two largest
economies in the world, the two top trading partners.
$700 billion worth of trade between the U.S. and China occurs every single year. These economies are entwined and they need to talk, they need to
communicate. And I think the takeaway from this trip is that everybody agrees that this is how it has to be moving forward.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's in the interests of both nations and their citizens. Anna, great to have you thank you, Anna Coren there. And later in the show,
we'll be hearing the view of Ambassador Max Baucus. He's the Former U.S. Ambassador to China. Meanwhile, Italy has moved to protect tyre giant
Pirelli's independence from China over the weekend.
Pirelli told investors that the Italian government has blocked Chinese chemical companies Sinochem and taking control of the company. Sinochem is
Pirelli's biggest shareholder. And at the same time, the Financial Times reports that drug maker AstraZeneca is planning to spin off its China
Business to protect itself from growing tensions surrounding Beijing.
The company said it would not comment on rumors regarding future plans. Anna Stewart joins me now. Anna, I'm not even sure what need you. I've
given all the details there. But you're going to have to apologize for that. You're going to have to explain it.
Let's get back to Pirelli and talk about what's going on there, because this is complicated from the initial investment. It was never a Chinese
state owned company that originally invested in Pirelli. It then just got more complicated. So what's the Italian government saying on doing here?
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Ultimately, this is the Italian government flexing some political muscle. I think stripping Sinochem which as you say,
a state owned from having influence on strategy and leadership decisions at Pirelli, which actually means in many ways return to the status quo with
Camfin, which is a private investment vehicle, which has a much smaller stake and for only 14 percent.
It's controlled by Pirelli CEO, Marco Tronchetti Provera, and it will retain a lot of influence here. It's an example of a government using so
called golden power rules to protect an asset of national strategic importance naturally, that is what the Italian government said last week in
They said this is all about Pirelli's Cyber Tyre, which uses chip technology to collect vehicle data. So they're protecting their interests
by stopping the Chinese state from having any influence on this company's strategy. But, you know, there's also here of course, an issue of national
This is one of Italy's oldest, most successful internationally recognized brands Pirelli. It's been in a Pirelli family since it was founded. In
fact, the current CEO married into the family, he took over from his father in law, who is the founder. And as politics, the Italian government is here
showing a very strong stance against China.
And as you say, the fact of the matter was, there was a very much a shift in terms of that Chinese stake and who actually owned it, it was Chem China
that got swallowed up by the Chinese state company, Sinochem. So there has been a shift in the politics as well. There's a lot going on there, I
think, in this decision.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. But I couldn't agree more with you about this being a crown jewel, I think of the Italian state and a very old company in
relative terms too. So wanting to protect that to some degree, though, one could also argue you want a cache but not the interference.
Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. Let's talk about AstraZeneca as well, because this has been rumored before as well the
possibility of spinning off this China Business. Any more detail on this?
STEWART: This was really interesting, and we got a very swift response from AstraZeneca. This morning, a spokesperson told me, we don't comment on
rumors or speculations around future strategy and M&A just what you would expect. The FT report suggests that the drug maker had been considering the
move as you say for some time.
And that this would protect their operations from Pirelli -- conflict in China and the West which is of course a hot topic for today. I would
consider this perhaps less of assuming it's true less of AstraZeneca pulling out of China and actually in many ways it pushing in, because this
may remove all sorts of barriers to drug development.
And getting drugs approved in the Chinese market, which is a big market for AstraZeneca, also freeing up in terms of new financial resources there. And
if you consider every single day we talk about AI we talk about data sharing and the regulations being drawn up in the West. And you consider
perhaps the lack of regulations or lack of barriers in China. This could if true, allow AstraZeneca to move much faster in the Chinese market.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and again, raising a lot of money in the process, Anna Stewart thank you. Ukraine claiming more gains in the counter offensive,
the military says it's recaptured eight settlements in the past two weeks. The most intense fighting is now taking place on the southern front,
according to President Zelenskyy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Russia will lose the occupied territories, there is no end will be no alternative to our steps for the
occupation. Our troops are advancing position by position, step by step, we are moving forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Meanwhile, take a look at this video. Russia says it's remotely detonated a tank filled with explosives in an apparent new tactic. Ben
Wedeman joins us now from Zaporizhzhia. Ben, let's talk about that first. Have we managed to geo-locate that incident there? And if what the Defense
Ministry is saying is true, have we seen this used as a tactic before?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we believe it's in the Marinka area which is near the City of Donetsk in the Donbas region.
And now according to an account of this incident put out by the Russian Defense Ministry on its telegram channel, what you're seeing is a T-54
tank. That's a Soviet era tank built in the years after World War Two.
Now according to this account, the tank was crammed with 3.5 tons of TNT, plus 1000 kilos of explosives extracted from other bombs as well. According
to this account, apparently a tank man got in the tank essentially pointed it in the direction of Ukrainian lines jumped out it went forward.
It appears to hit a mine and also got hit by an RPG round fired from the Ukrainian lines. And then it explodes. The explosion is massive. Clearly,
there are some huge quantities of explosives in that tank when it goes off. We don't know whether it actually succeeded in puncturing the Ukrainian
It appears to have been about 300 meters from the Ukrainian lines. And we don't know if they actually the Russians were able to push forward in that
particular area, but it does represent a new if somewhat crude tactic. And it's difficult to say if this is going to be used on a wider scale, but it
certainly is dramatic at least that can be said, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Certainly, Ben Wedeman, thank you. Jailed Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny appeared in public today for the start of a new trial
that could keep him behind bars for the next 30 years. Navalny already serving a multi-year sentence for fraud and contempt of court appeared
before a Russian court set up in the penal colony where he's being held.
Navalny calling the new charges of extremism leveled against him absurd. And the Israeli Army launched a large scale military operation in occupied
West Bank City of Jenin today triggering a huge firefight with Palestinian militants. Palestinian officials say at least five people lost their lives
including a teenager, dozens more were injured.
Israel says it entered the city to arrest two suspects seven of its forces were injured too. Hadas Gold joins us now from Jerusalem. Hadas, what more
can you tell us about the events that led up to the outbreak of violence?
HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, from what we understand this was supposed to be an arrest raid to rest to wanted
suspects, but it escalated into something much, much bigger. And this lasted at something like 10 hours. We just got word within the last half
hour or so that the Israeli Military is finally completely out of Jenin.
Jenin, we've often reported on as a hotspot city in the occupied West Bank. Lots of militant activity there lots of regular Israeli Military rates. But
what happened today shows an alarming increase in firepower being used by both the Israeli Military and the Palestinian militants. We have some
dramatic videos of several incidences.
The first I want to bring up is a roadside IED bomb that detonated as an Israeli Military with called a panther command vehicle was driving -- to
the Israeli Military this IED roadside bomb essentially blew off the entire underside of this vehicle. And that is where some of those Israeli Military
injuries were coming from.
Now, the ID saying this will essentially the use of these IDs will essentially change how they, as they "conduct their business" in the
occupied West Bank. And that it's a rather alarming sort of new firepower they see being used. As in addition to the ID and the heavy gunfire the
Israeli Military saying that several of their vehicles were rendered inoperable at some point.
They say soldiers were still within Jenin for hours waiting for extraction. We do know that all the soldiers now are out of Jenin and the Israeli
Military essentially portrayed what was happening there as very harsh. Now we have five Palestinians have been killed.
And something like we're seeing absolutely dozens like more than 90 injured as well seven Israeli forces injured. Among the dead, we have at least
confirmation that two militants belonging to Islamic Jihad were killed. But also among the dead or a 15 year old boy among the injured or is a young
girl as well as a photo journalist.
A freelance photojournalist who was covering the rate and from images we're seeing he was wearing protective gear that identified him as a member of
the media. Also, though, for the first time in decades, really since the Second Intifada since the early 2000s, the Israeli Military used in a
patchy helicopter to fire while they were trying to extract soldiers.
The Israeli Military said that they fire towards open area to provide cover for their soldiers while they were trying to undertake this rescue
operation. But this is a significant development because something like this has not been used since the very tense very violent days of the Second
And that's what's so concerning here is what we're seeing on the ground is the IEDs being used by the militants. And now as we see this Apache
helicopter being used on a very, very dense urban area in the occupied West Bank at the same time, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Hadas Gold in Jerusalem. Thank you. And we're back after this, stay with "First Move".
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", the global economy is showing signs of improvement but progress is fragile. That's the latest outlook
from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
It for costs headline inflation in the OECD will slow to 6.6 percent this year and 4.3 percent in 2024. That's thanks in part at least to tighter
monetary policy and also lowers food and energy prices. But the OECD sees inflation is still a threat to growth, as well as the impact of Russia's
war in Ukraine.
Joining us now is the OECD Secretary General Mathias Cormann. Secretary General Great to have you on the show, there's good and bad, I think in
this outlook, there's a lot of work been done to try and restrain out of control prices in significant swathes of the world. The problem is high
interest rates and high inflation is weighing on consumers.
MATHIAS CORMANN, OECD SECRETARY-GENERAL: Well, the outlook for the global economy has improved somewhat, though, yes, it still by historical
standards, is a low growth recovery. And indeed, I mean, inflation is a key challenge to tackle and Central Banks around the world are making the
So to tighten monetary policy, but what we're also saying to governments around the world. So we really need to see the governments that make
decisions on fiscal policy that support the monetary policy, fight to tackle inflation.
CHATTERLEY: In many parts of the world, the high spending that these governments enacted, during the pandemic is still providing, I think, an
important cushion in the face of rising interest rates. But what are you saying that you want to see more growth targeted fiscal policy from these
governments rather than just relying on Central Banks to try and do the work by tightening interest rates?
CORMANN: Well, I mean, there was a clear reason for fiscal support to cushion the impact of the pandemic. But you know, we're on the other side
of that now, and we've experienced post pandemic, strong and rapid recovery. But of course, then we had the impact of Russia's role of
aggression against Ukraine.
And the impact in particular that had on energy and food prices and governments around the world have pursued measures to cushion the impact of
that. But energy prices now, well below the peaks and will have started to go down. And, you know, one of our key messages to governments around the
world is as growth picks up, as energy prices and inflation comes down.
It's important to really much more narrowly target, the fiscal support that's provided and to get more. I mean to essentially make the job of
Central Banks to get inflation under control easier, not harder by continuing to provide blanket levels of support.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, they should be working against each other, providing more spending support, and then relying on the Central Banks too to tighten
rates to try and contain it. We have got Central Banks now, certainly in the Western world, perhaps moving in different directions.
The United States has signaled a pause, at least for now the European Central Bank is still hiking, then the quick China and cutting rates over
there. Can you give me a sense of what your outlook is for China, and whether you expect significantly more stimulus coming from the government
to our point about governments doing some work?
CORMANN: Well, I mean, different economies in different parts of the world, in different stages of the monetary policy tightening cycle. I mean,
certainly the U.S., the Federal Reserve went very hard, earlier, and for some time and indeed, I mean, you know, obviously, as you go forward, you
need to give yourself the time to properly assess as the risks of doing too much or too little become more equally balanced.
You know, it's important to really focus very carefully on the data that's coming through them. And in Europe, I split them in, you know, we see that
there is some more tightening that is likely to be required. But again, of course, you know, these decisions will be informed by the data as it comes
You know, in relation to China, you know, obviously, they are assessing the data that they're looking at, as they're making their decisions. I mean, no
two economies are entirely in the same stage. And, of course, you know, relevant decisions have got to be made based on the relevant data in
CHATTERLEY: They're part of the debate that's being had in the United States is whether the targets for inflation, even bear relation to the
world we're in today with. The energy transition that you've mentioned, that's taken place, particularly in places like Europe.
But if we talk specifically about the United States, the shift in supply chains, changes in globalization. Do you worry that Central Banks in
particular are pushing towards inflation targets that aren't really relevant for today's economies and that's dangerous, perhaps they go too
CORMANN: Well, inflation targets have served as well and inflation targets are important. I mean, you are right that different factors are driving
inflation. But I mean, but what we see is it the supply chain pressures, in the context in the aftermath of the pandemic, in the context of the War of
Ukraine and supply chain pressures have actually eased.
And it is very important to get inflation durably under control and to ensure that inflation expectations are well anchored. I mean, in the end,
it's the lowest income people in economies around the world that get hit the hardest and get hurt the most, that when inflation gets out of control.
And so in terms of stability and the capacity to sustainably grow the economy moving forward and offer the best possible opportunity for people
to get ahead, having a stable inflationary environment is a very important ingredient. So, you know, I would certainly caution against any suggestion
that, you know, the inflation targeting approach with Central Banks is no longer required. It's a very central and important feature of our economic
stability and will be so into the future.
CHATTERLEY: Certainly can't argue with that. I think one of the other things, obviously, that governments are focused on is trying to increase
jobs, wherever you are in the world and productivity, I think, which is also perhaps taking a hit too. Can I ask you what the OECD stance at this
moment is on generative AI an artificial intelligence and whether you see that as a net positive, perhaps for jobs and productivity? Do you even have
a stance yet?
CORMANN: Well, I mean, so it is certainly an evolving conversation. And we recognize the significant upside benefits from generative AI but like, you
know, including when it comes to productivity improvements, but as with anything new and as in anything that is evolving rapidly, it also comes
with new and evolving, challenges, risks and disruptions.
And it's important that, you know, policy settings policy frameworks ensure that the use of AI and generative AI in particular, is safe, is appropriate
and is channeled in the right direction. And in that context, certainly we are involved in policy conversations on how current regulatory frameworks
can be appropriately adjusted in order to career for that.
In fact, Japan's G7 presidency has initiated Hiroshima process, which is a process to engage in a global conversation about how to ensure that
regulatory and policy frameworks appropriately facilitate innovation and the upside benefits, but also appropriately manage some of the downside
risks and disruptions.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I love that you're part of the discussion, because I think we all need to be talking about this, every voice counts on this to try and
understand how we best regulate it and faster the benefits of the technology. Now, that wasn't in your Outlook. I apologize for that.
What was though? Was a specific section on women in the workplace? And I don't want to single out women specifically for this because carers come in
all forms. But more often than not, I think the greater burden of family care certainly falls on women in households.
And the balance of work, as the pandemic I think, also proved became a challenge, at a time when working from home is becoming I think, more
contentious, certainly than it was. What are your findings in this report? And what is the best way to utilize women in the workplace in your mind?
CORMANN: Well, a couple of important points. Firstly, I mean, significant strides have been made in improving gender equality in the workforce, but
across OECD countries, that there's still a significant gap. I mean, when it comes to employment participation between men and women, at their prime
You know, men about 15 percent, men have workforce participation about 15 percent higher than women. And I mean there's a range of issues and
obviously, flexible working arrangements are important. We need to ensure that the tax and transfer systems, the social benefits don't provide
disincentives to increase workforce participation by women and indeed, access to childcare.
Now, gender equality is important for women, yes, but it's actually also important for our economies and reaching the full potential of our
economies. I mean, we what we've said in our report, is that across OECD economies, if we were to achieve gender equality, in workforce
participation and hours worked.
It would boost GDP across OECD economies by about 9.2 percent, which is quite significant. And as we're facing the structural challenge of
population aging, which means that the working age population is shrinking. There's a drag on workforce participation levels, we just can't afford to
have this very significant resource available and not properly tapping into it.
And so that is, I guess, one of the policy areas, that from the OECD perspective, we're really trying to put a spotlight on to say there is more
opportunity here for them to the benefit of everyone to improve gender equality and in particular, female workforce participation levels.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. And that's why I chose to spotlight it to you, because that's the statistic for me left out. We have the potential there; we just
need to unlock it. OECD Secretary General Mathias Cormann there, thank you so much sir for joining us. OK coming up after the break global issues
Russia, Taiwan and North Korea all parts and parcel of talks between the United States and China in Beijing The question is what was actually
achieved, we'll discuss.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". And returning now to the talks between the United States and China in Beijing and wasn't really a case of
mission accomplished, at least on the part of U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, he said he was able to strengthen communications channels,
make clear their positions and intentions on areas of disagreement and explore were interests the line on transnational challenges.
BLINKEN: Here in Beijing, I had an important conversation with President Xi Jinping. And I had candid, substantive and constructive discussions with my
counterparts, Director Wang Yi, and State Councilor Qin Gang. I appreciate the hospitality extended by our hosts.
In every meeting, I stress that direct engagement and sustained communication and senior levels is the best way to responsibly manage our
differences and ensure that competition does not veer into conflict. And I heard the same for my Chinese counterparts. We both agree on the need to
stabilize our relationship.
CHATTERLEY: And that's the positive spin. There's much to discuss. Max Baucus is the former United States Senator and Ambassador to China. And he
joins us live now from Hong Kong, Ambassador, great to have you on the show with us. The bar was set pretty low, I think for this meeting on both
sides. Can we call it a success? The fact that the Secretary of State actually met with President Xi is a strong starting point. Can we call it
MAX BAUCUS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: Yes, I think its progress. But it's very limited progress. I'm reminded frankly, of the ballet of meaning
between President Biden and President Xi that was supposed to be a -- floor and the deteriorating relationship between United States and China, it
didn't work out.
I think, in part because when both leaders went back home to their home state, it's kind of businesses, homeless countries, its business as usual.
In fact, things got worse. So this is an effort to try to put another floor that is trying to put a floor on the downward spiral. And I think both
countries realize this tension is getting much more serious.
And maybe we better do something about it. And so far it's talk. And the real challenge is going to be when Secretary Blinken goes home. And when
the Chinese Foreign Diplomat Qin Gang and Wang Yi, go back to midday or stay there, what are they going to do? It's really comes down to deeds, not
words, law, nice sounding words.
And I hope that very much that both countries don't do anything stupid. By that, I mean, don't do, and don't take some action that undermines the good
words and the good feelings that occurred during this meeting between Blinken and Wang Yi and including President Xi.
CHATTERLEY: It's a valid point. And I think what remains a key division is the lack of agreement over why actually relations have deteriorated so
badly, not just in and under this administration, I think but you could argue over the past decade or two decades.
Do you think to your point about no missteps between perhaps now and let's say the for the APEC meeting that's set to take place in San Francisco. Do
you think at least for now, this paves the way barring any interceding disasters for the two presidents to meet there?
BAUCUS: I certainly hope so. And I frankly, think both countries is going to work very hard to prevent any misdeeds or do anything nutty or stupid,
so that President Xi can attend that APEC meeting in November and possibly meet with President Biden. It's going to take a credible discipline,
though, on both sides.
Incredible, because back in states, President -- as President Joe Biden is going to be somewhat attacked by some of the hawks in the United States.
And I think President Xi is going to have a lot of pressure from the military, in China as well.
So it'll take a lot of discipline for each country to not do anything nutty, and to make sure that we keep this good feeling. And actually, the
longer we cannot do anything nutty, the more that I think that's going to help pave the communication that we all want.
CHATTERLEY: I love these diplomatic terms, nutty and stupid. I think that will use it worthy. Yes.
BAUCUS: That's a Good Montana American phrase. I am doing many years -- .
CHATTERLEY: I appreciate it. The Brits also appreciate it, I can tell you. What wasn't achieved in these talks? And perhaps you could help us
understand why is the reopening of military to military lines of communication to your point about unfortunate skirmishes and near misses,
we had a plane, a Chinese military plane, and the U.S. military planes come within three meters of each other at the back end of last year, then we had
a near miss in the Taiwan Strait.
These are all quick moments made dramatically worse by the fact that they aren't communications to explain and say, look, this is what was going on.
Why would China not want to reestablish these lines of communication?
BAUCUS: Well, it's a major disappointment. I clearly, I'm listening to Secretary Blinken; he was quite disappointed when he had to admit that
there was no agreement. It's unclear why China would not agree to set up -- . It's very, very important, as you say.
It's in part, I think it's the Chinese military, and they're a little nervous, isn't sure they want to do this yet. But it's we just don't know.
But I do think what Blinken says is accurate, we got to keep trying is keep trying, but it's important not to put too much pressure on China.
I think if we urged China to re-establish -- , but do it privately, then it's more likely to occur and say if we don't do it, China don't agree to
it. After a while we're going to have to talk about it publicly.
CHATTERLEY: That's a great point, Ambassador. And I think perhaps the more important question they should be asking from your experience of being
there and interacting. And I think the clear cultural misunderstandings and miscommunications that seemed to be taking place and have taken place over
a number of years.
What is the best way to communicate with the Chinese government, whether it's for cooperation on things like climate change, whether its strategic
challenges, like intellectual property theft, or concerns about those kinds of things? What is the best way to compete but also cooperate with China?
BAUCUS: Well, yes, well, I have two answers to that question. One is when I was serving in Beijing, it's kind of corny, but I developed my three pieces
that is with China, you got to be patient, you got to be positive, and you got to be persistent. Just stick with it. Stick with it, but in a positive,
upbeat way. Don't embarrass and don't do anything. That's going to make them lose faith.
Second, I think that and some of the critical issues, let's say, Taiwan, or, or maybe it's in Russia, that we have to sit on it and tell China where
our red line is, but do it privately, don't embarrass them. Keep talking about it private and say, hey, China, you can't go over this red line where
if you do, you're going to pay tremendous consequences, but do it privately.
After well, we may have to be public about it, but we start out private, they're going to respect that we're dealing with him privately, and we're
likely to get action.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's just a complete cultural difference truth to power and free speech in the United States versus the danger of embarrassing a
political leader in China. I want to ask you about where this leaves the rest of the world, Ambassador, in your view.
We've gone through a number of meetings now the g7 meeting where there seemed to be at least certain European leaders that were saying that we
don't want this to be an anti-Chinese meeting, we had President Macron of France, taking business leaders to Beijing and saying, look, we don't want
to have the same kind of relationship with the United States.
Where does this meeting and this sort of tote for transitions in the relationship leave other nations be at Europe, India, regional countries
BAUCUS: Well, I think one of the objectives of President Xi was to show that China is mature that China can be a broker agreement on the world
stage. And the more that it can show to the world that is mature, that is, President Xi actually admitted with Secretary Blinken.
Well, that sends a signal to Europe that hey, we can deal with you. On the other hand, if more President Xi and China look like their image, or that
is the stiff arm, the United States anymore, I think that's going to allow European countries to more ally themselves with the United States, and it's
going to be disadvantageous to China.
So, I think President Xi did a pretty good job, when he met with Blinken show that hey, we're; we want to work together with you Americans. And I
think that's going to be noted by the Europeans. And therefore the Europeans are going to say, gee, maybe we could work with China after all.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, my takeaways from this conversation, avoid nutty and stupid behavior. And understand, try and understand those cultural
differences, Ambassador, great to have you on the show. As always, thank you so much for your wisdom.
BAUCUS: Thank you, you bet.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you. We're back after this.
CHATTERLEY: Now a disturbing story from Kenya. Hundreds of victims have been found in a Kenyan forest since late April, many of them young
children. The leader of a religious cult is accused of brainwashing followers to starve themselves and their family members.
David McKenzie spoke with families affected by the group and we want to warn you, his report contains disturbing material that may be quite hard to
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): He called it the wilderness, alluringness flock to a remote corner of Kenya.
We've come to try and understand how over many months so many could die. In the Shakahola forest, the data is still being found. Forensic teams
carefully remove the remains of members of a Christian death cult from shallow graves.
They have already on Earth more than 300 people; many of them children may be showing signs of starvation.
FRANCIS WANJE, FATHER OF CULT MEMBER: It's painful to stop in for it was so painful. This is my daughter.
MCKENZIE (voice over): Francis Wanje says his daughter and son in law both abandoned good jobs and took their children to the forest cult. What
happened next is hard to comprehend.
WANJE: Everyone should die and to meet Jesus. And they have to start with the children.
MCKENZIE (on camera): The member of the cult including your own family was starving the children.
MCKENZIE (on camera): And then when the children didn't die quickly in that.
WANJE: They suffocate.
MCKENZIE (on camera): They suffocate them.
WANJE: They suffocate them, yes.
MCKENZIE (on camera): And this is your own blood.
WANJE: And I wonder where my children or my child, my daughter, could change to be such an animal a wild animal to kill her own children.
MCKENZIE (voice over): Pastor Paul Mackenzie began his cult in Melendi.
MCKENZIE (on camera): This is the church where Pastor MacKenzie had a huge following in his sermons.
MCKENZIE (voice over): He amplified his message online. He preached a doomsday prophecy for at least a decade, calling on the faithful to reject
modern society. Pull children from school, avoid hospitals. He demanded total devotion. You must deny yourself, you must reject yourself. You must
reach a point of ending your life he says, for the sake of Jesus.
His antigovernment stance got him arrested and detained but never prosecuted. In 2019 the church was closed down. Later the pastor started
his forest community. We found a former cult member in Malindi. We agreed to hide her identity for her own safety. She escaped the forest last year.
MCKENZIE (on camera): Why did you move your whole home and all your children and move into the forest?
MCKENZIE (voice over): The pastor used to call me she says, he was calling me telling me my daughter you are being left behind. And when the Ark is
closed, it will be too late. So I decided to go. When the COVID pandemic hit, she says many saw it as evidence that the prophecies were real.
Mackenzie charged her family $80 for a piece of land in Galilee. There were seven other biblically named settlements in Shakahola with more than
thousand followers she says, still called members made regular trips to a nearby village for food and water. In December those trips suddenly stopped
says this villager -- .
The starvation had begun. He says they alerted authorities but they didn't. Even after hungry, children started escaping to the village. It's been
called the Shakahola Massacre has shocked this nation. Pastor Mackenzie and his closest followers are being held under terror laws.
MCKENZIE (on camera): What happened in the forest with your followers?
PAUL NTHENGE MACKENZIE, CULT LEADER: I can tell nothing about that because I've been in custody for two months. So I don't know what is going outside
there. Have you been there?
MCKENZIE (voice over): Francis Wanje says there needs to be justice. He mounted a rescue mission to get his grandchildren out. When they found his
grandson Ephrem, he was close to starvation. His two brothers were already dead.
WANJE: He went to hell. He went to hell. I'm telling in fact when he was rescued, he told them that if you could come here, maybe late, a bit late.
Already find me and already gone to see Jesus, because --
MCKENZIE (voice over): The very highest levels of the Kenyan government have apologized for their inaction and the pain it has caused. This scale
of what happened in the forest is still being understood, hundreds are still missing.
And many more mass graves need to be exhumed. David McKenzie, CNN, Malindi Kenya.
CHATTERLEY: Stay with "First Move", we'll be back after this.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". Now our regular viewers will know we love exploring tech advances like artificial intelligence and robotics
on this show. And while the robots may not be taking over anytime soon, they certainly captured a fair amount of attention at this year's Viva Tech
in Paris. That's Eleni Giokos reports.
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Emotional robots, pet robots, heavy lifting robots, and a crowd of tech enthusiast. You're looking at the
next generation of robots on display at Tech fairs in Europe. Despite widespread concerns about artificial intelligence, developers say these
robots were made for good.
Ergo Cup, for instance, was built for helping people with a difficult physical tasks, picture at bringing in grocery boxes, taking out the trash
or working in warehouses to reduce physical stress and the risk of injuries to workers. Ergo Cup is being developed in Italy.
DANIELE PUCCI, ISTITUTO ITALIANO DI TECNOLOGIA: The -- for national insurance that is foreseeing a future application of the robot to reduce
the impact of musculoskeletal diseases.
GIOKOS (voice over): At the Paris Tech fair Viva Tech, developers are showcasing buddy and emotional robots, program to show feelings and they
say capable of developing new ones.
RODOLPHE HASSELVANDER, FOUNDER, BLUE FROG ROBOTICS: For example, he can help children who have been in hospital for a long time to continue their
lessons at a distance. It will also help autistic children improve their ability to communicate with others.
GIOKOS (voice over): Meet Muraki a twin robots. It's able to grasp things, perform simple tasks, and interact with people. This one is named Muraki
and is saying he is the brother of Muraka.
JEROME MONCEAUX, FOUNDER/CEO, ENCHANTED TOOLS: These two characters have escaped from a cartoon to enter our daily lives and help us manage our
social spaces. Places like hospitals, hotels, restaurants, and tons of other places where there are lots of objects to move around.
GIOKOS (voice over): But it's not just robots on display at Viva Tech. Historical figures are also back to life. French startup Jumbo Mana used AI
to generate famous Dutch painter Vincent Van Gogh who died over a century ago, but is now back to answer your questions. Also answering questions at
Viva Tech is, Elon Musk.
ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: There's a real danger for digital super intelligence having negative consequences. So if we are not careful with creating
artificial general intelligence, we could have potentially a catastrophic outcome.
GIOKOS (voice over): But he went on to say the most likely outcome for AI is positive. And that's something the robots might agree with.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is important to remember that these technologies can also have a positive impact on our lives if used
CHATTERLEY: And finally a day to remember for hundreds of Daschund owners in Melbourne, Australia, who broke the Guinness World Record for the
largest walk by single breed of dog. The organizer thought it was high time the dashes took the title.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADELE GULLICK, EVENT ORGANIZER: The current record is 1029 bagels in the UK, so we're hoping today that we can beat the bagels.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Wow, so they smashed it, the group beat the previous record set in 2018. With an official tally of nearly 1400 daschunds, that is nothing
to be sniffed at, but I'm sure there's plenty of sniffing and general chaos there. Congratulations to those darling daschunds. And that's it for the
show. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next.