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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Putin Praises Security Forces after Mutiny; CNN Obtains Tape of Trump Talking Classified Docs; Kozyrev: This is Another Episode in the Degradation of the Russian Regime; Commercial Real Estate Facing Major Pressure; Oracle to Offer Generative AI using Cohere Tech; Lukashenko: Wagner Leader Prigozhin is in Belarus. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired June 27, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST FIRST MOVE: And a warm welcome to "First Move", great to have you with us for a terrific Tuesday on the show coming up this
hour, Putin's praise. The Russian President just two hours ago thanking security forces who he sees prevented a civil war.
Russia also offering mercy to the mercenaries dropping all charges against the Wagner group after the aborted rebellion. Defense Ministry says Wagner
will hand over its heavy hardware. The outstanding issue remains the whereabouts of Wagner's big gun Yevgeny Prigozhin plus Ukraine's gains.
President Zelenskyy heads to the frontline saying chips are advancing against Russia on all sides. Ukraine hoping this short live mutiny will
weaken Russia's resolve. And Trump tape to CNN obtains recordings of the Former President claiming to have had it in his possession, a secret
Pentagon document that he did not declassify.
Trump has pleaded not guilty to charges of mishandling classified papers after report just ahead. And from taping to ticker tape, shaping off
Monday's malaise, investors pushing stocks, mostly higher, as you can see that pre market though still a relatively cautious picture over in Europe.
We also have a bevy of central bankers speaking this week as policymakers meet in Portugal -- certainly for Fed Chair Powell, who's set to speak on
Wednesday and on Thursday. And in the meantime, ECB had Christine Lagarde keeping the message very clear, saying the European Central Bank is set to
raise interest rates again next month.
And another big confab two sponsored by the World Economic Forum taking place in China, where the premier says Beijing will hit its 5 percent
growth target, despite fears of a slowdown. And I think that helped to get proceed with a better tone across the Chinese markets today with the HANG
SENG rising for the first time in five sessions.
News today to that U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is planning a trip to Beijing next month too. It's a truly global tour in store today that we
do begin in Russia, where President Putin spoke to his security forces about the Wagner revolt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: So that the real defenders of the Motherland who took part in fighting as comrades against this chaos, a
result of which inevitably, would have been chaos. You defended the Constitution, the lives, the security, and the freedom of our citizens. You
saved up people, our homeland, virtually, you stopped a civil war. In actual fact, you stopped a --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Nic Robertson joins us now. Nic, you and I were saying yesterday that we saw President Putin in the aftermath of this, but it was
a recorded message and a little bit confusing in light of what had taken place.
Fast forward today and he seems to be all over the media, not shying away from what could have been the scale of this calling it a potential civil
war. But at the same time, lying out that what was funding, the Wagner group was the state and that money is now turned off.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it's a couple of things we've seen today. We've seen Putin at this sort of big formal
military ceremony praising the unity of the security forces, and praising the fact that they came out and stop this rebellion that could have become
a civil war, he said.
OK, so they're kind of there's one lie in there that we know, because their security services didn't come out and stop the Prigozhin's forces, because
he got very close to Moscow, they turned around on their own accord. So that doesn't seem to hold truth. Then he says that the security services
were very united.
Well, I think, you know, in the analysis that when Putin says something, you have to examine whether or not it was true, perhaps that wasn't so
true. There's a history of the security services not being so united in Russia. And perhaps that's why Prigozhin's forces were actually able to get
as close to Moscow and as quickly as they did and interesting late last night that Putin had a meeting with the heads of all his security forces.
And one of those, the National Guard Chief has said this morning his forces are now going to be issued with tanks and heavy military hardware. What do
we read into that? Do we read into that, that he sat around the table to Putin last night? How could I have stopped Prigozhin's forces? They had
tanks and I had machine guns.
So you do get a sense that perhaps there is a bit of disunity in the ranks because when Putin speaks it isn't always quite as straightforward as he
lays it out which is his propaganda to the Russian people. And then the meeting was later on today where he met with the lower ranks of the
And I think there was kind of one very simple, take away from that. And that was, Putin's government equals good. They actually financed the tune
of close to a billion dollars, the Wagner group fighting on the frontlines heroically for Russia; Yevgeny Prigozhin equals greedy equals bad because
he was a separate organization Concord, which got about a billion worth of dollars' worth of contracts from the Russian government.
And now there is a question surprise about were there some financial irregularities in Wagner? Essentially, I think what is laying the
groundwork for here is some kind of financial charges of some description against Prigozhin. Having had the FSB this morning, drop the charges
relating to this rebellion.
It's very much Kremlin, it's very much how Russia and Putin specifically takes down his opponents for financial charges, which are very hard to
refute, because it's such a gray zone. So this is Putin trying to put a big positive spin on the disaster over the weekend.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and a projection of power, to your point about the praise for the security forces that at least on the surface, were nowhere to be
seen on Saturday. Is prison term Lukashenko, Belarus, actually, the real winner here? He was given credit for brokering the deal.
And there was some skepticism around how intricately involved he was in all of the negotiation that took place when they decided to turn around but in
his own country has been touted as the savior of Russia.
ROBERTSON: Yes, and he says, don't call me a hero. I'm not a hero. Prigozhin is not a hero, Putin is not a hero. This was just about the clash
of two people. Does he mean a clash between Prigozhin and Sergei Shoigu, Russia's Defense Minister because that's what it looked like from the
Perhaps is giving us an insight that we're not getting from the Kremlin, that that's what it came down to. You know, I think what we hear we hear
from Lukashenko are a couple of things. You know, I think he's afraid that the contagion can spread. He said that one of the first things he'd done
was put his own military on a full state of military readiness.
He's told his people not to worry about the Wagner elements coming into Belarus, because they have military experience, and they could be useful
and helpful for, you know, for the defense of Belarus. So I think there's a sense here from Lukashenko that he played a role, but he played it,
potentially because he was told to.
He doesn't want the contagion of revolt, to spread to his country. And he's trying to sort of set a narrative here that he's done this for the right
reasons because Russia was suffering. It's the fatherland if Russia collapses, we'll be under the rubble dead as well, meaning if there was a
revolt in Russia.
There'd be revolt in Belarus as well, which would bring him down. I think this all comes down to Lukashenko's ability to continue to hold on to power
and protect it a calamity for Putin is a calamity for Lukashenko. I think that's a simple subscript here.
CHATTERLEY: A desperate desire on both sides to move on from this. Nic Robertson, thank you so much for that and in Ukraine not a moment to lose,
President Zelenskyy saying his forces are advancing in all directions on the front line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Donetsk region Zaporizhzhia region. Our soldiers are forefront positions, directions of the active
actions at the front. Today in all directions, our soldiers had an advance forward, and it is a happy day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: And Nick Paton Walsh has more of the details.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Unprecedented chaos in Moscow has yet to ease Ukraine's bitter fight
in the trenches. Close combat around Bakhmut two weeks into the continued grind of the counter offensive open operations filmed over the weekend,
just as Wagner troops roll towards Moscow.
Here, the red, white and blue are Russians in disarray and surrendering. The hope is more will follow as word spreads of the failed rebellion and
morale and discipline falter. It was near here Ukraine proclaimed Monday progress on the front lines with room for hope elsewhere to the south on
another Donetsk, France, near the heavily contested Marinka.
It appears some Kremlin loyal Chechen fighters were pulled to Moscow for his defense at the weekend. Here they are strutting along an apparent
highway near the capital Bakhmut and Marinka opportunities for Ukraine in the east, but also further west near Kherson, the Antonovsky Bridge.
The scene of intense clashes captured by this Russian drone as Ukrainian for is claimed to cross over to the Russian controlled eastern bank opening
another front perhaps. It is too early to tell whether or if Russia is crumbling. And Ukraine's progress has been incremental still.
This, the familiar scene when they're fighters declared they'd captured another small village in the South River uphill on Monday. None of this yet
their strategic sea change and Russian collapse. The weekend's madness that Zelenskyy visiting troops in the East Monday as well will hope follows.
He faces anxious choices, even with all the Kremlin's intimate ugliness so exposed, move now, or wait for more in Moscow to unravel. He must be sure
to make no mistakes of his own, or interrupt the torrent of them in Moscow. Nick Paton Walsh CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.
CHATTERLEY: And at the so called at Summer Davos in Tianjin. China's Premier gave a bullish forecast on economic growth despite widespread
concerns. Li Keqiang says second quarter data will show the recovery picking up speed compared to the first three months of the year. Anna Coren
has all the details.
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Chinese Premier was sounding optimistic about his country's economy while addressing the World Economic Forum
summit in Tianjin today, announcing that China's economic growth was projected to reach an annual target of around 5 percent.
It comes as the world's second largest economy is struggling to make the post COVID recovery that markets were anticipating after it reopened at the
end of last year. As you remember, China virtually cut itself off from the world for almost three years with its harsh zero COVID policies.
Li Keqiang said growth in the second quarter of the year will be higher than the first and that China will roll out more effective policies to
expand domestic demand and open markets. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LI KEQIANG, FORMER PREMIER OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA: For the whole year, we are expected to achieve the target of about 5 percent economic
growth set at the beginning of this year. Recently, some international organizations and institutions have also raised their forecast for China's
economic growth this year, showing their confidence in China's development prospects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COREN: But not everyone is showing confidence, a long list of major banks and credit rating agencies have cut forecasts for economic growth in China
this year. Just yesterday, S&P global reduced growth forecasts from 5.5 to 5.2 percent, joining Goldman Sachs UBS and JP Morgan among others in
The property sector remains a drag on the economy. As developers struggle to complete pre sold projects and the local government debt burden comes
into focus. Industrial output and retail sales remain sluggish and youth unemployment is at a record 20.8 percent.
Many young people disillusioned and anxious about China's economic uncertainty have resorted to prayer, flooding Buddhist and Taoist temples
to pray for divine intervention in securing jobs. Its fear the youth unemployment rate could further rise as a record, 11.6 million college
students graduate this summer.
Analysts believe China will need to roll out more stimulus this year to achieve growth targets but it's unknown what form that stimulus will take.
Anna Coren, CNN, Hong Kong.
CHATTERLEY: And caught on tape Donald Trump admitted he had highly classified documents that he knew that he did not declassify CNN has
exclusively obtained an audio recording of a 2021 meeting at the Former President's Golf Club in New Jersey. Just take a listen to this.
DONALD TRUMP, 45TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case. Except it is like highly confidential secret
information. See as President I could have declassified it. Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.
CHATTERLEY: It could be crucial evidence in the federal case against the Former President over his alleged mishandling of classified documents.
Federal prosecutors have charged him with putting national security secrets at risk. Sara Murray joins us now with more of the details. Sara just
explained to our audience why this is so important to the indictment against the Former President.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a hugely important moment for prosecutors and damning evidence against Donald Trump because he
is in this meeting. He's with people who are writing a biography of Mark Meadows is Former White House Chief of Staff as well as a couple of Trump
staffers, none of who have security clearance.
And he's talking very cavalierly about this document that is clearly very sensitive information about a potential plan against Iran.
And he even notes in part of the tape if the document is not classified and he has no ability at this point to declassify it. Take a listen to that
TRUMP: This was done by the military given to me. I think we can probably, right?
STAFFER: I don't know we'll have to see. Yes, we'll have to try to --
TRUMP: Declassify it.
STAFFER: -- figure out a -- yes
TRUMP: See as President I could have declassified it.
TRUMP: Now, I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.
STAFFER: Yes, now we have a problem.
TRUMP: Isn't that interesting?
TRUMP: It's so cool. I mean, it's so, look, her and I, and you probably almost didn't believe me, but now you believe me.
WRITER: No, I believed you.
TRUMP: It's incredible, right?
WRITER: No, they never met a war they didn't want.
TRUMP: It brings him bring some cokes in please.
MURRAY: And you can hear in that tape how carelessly they're talking about these documents. You know, he's talking about how he can't declassify them
in a staffer saying, Oh, now we have a problem. And then everyone starts laughing. You know, Donald Trump said in a recent interview with Fox News
that there was no actual document he was referring to these was all newspaper, magazine, clippings.
But he says in other parts of the tape, I'll show you an example and these are the papers. And you can bet the prosecutors are looking for some kind
of corroborating evidence. You know, we know that they've talked to at least one of the people who were in that meeting.
They talked to Mark Milley, who is someone Donald Trump was sort of railing against in the run up to talking about this document. And so they are
trying to sort of work to build a case around what else other people in the meeting may have saw whether he may have shown other people the document.
And in that Mark Meadows autobiography, it refers to this document as in more detail, just describing it as a four page document about this
potential attack on Iran.
CHATTERLEY: Sara Murray, thank you so much for that report there. OK, straight ahead, Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev ways joins
me to discuss the short lived Wagner revolt and what it means for President Putin, that's next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday that they don't agree with some analysts who say that the
short lived rebellion compromised President Vladimir Putin's position of authority. Peskov added these events only showcase the strength of the
level of unity within society around the President.
Meanwhile, the whereabouts of Wagner boss, Chief Yevgeny Prigozhin is still unknown. In an audio tape release Monday, Prigozhin said the armed march to
Moscow was a protest, not a move to oust President Putin.
Earlier Tuesday Russia's Federal Security Service Set its dropping the case against the Wagner group rebels and Prigozhin for the weekend revolt. And
joining us now is Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev.
Sir, great to have you on the show, I know it's been quite a while since you were in politics in Russia, but I think some things don't change. Can
we say at this moment that President Putin is firmly back in charge?
ANDREI KOZYREV, FORMER RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, nothing ever changes in set in the sense that goes dark dogs are fighting under the carpet, in
authoritarian regimes. That's not only in Russia, but elsewhere it's particularly a Russian tradition. And that's what we are witnessing. I
would not kind of take it too seriously, because it's just two gangsters, or more evil gangsters are fighting each other.
And the problem is that, of course, it destabilizes it's a sin, a signal of the running of the regime. And it's going on already for 20 or more years,
as Putin is in power, and his economic record is also very bad. That is one of the reasons also. But the Russian people, probably sees it as it is that
it's just the fight of the oligarchs.
And that's why they probably are a neutral to that. And they also believe part of propaganda and propaganda is overwhelming there. So it's well
possible that a temporarily at least, Putin could be successful in turning it internally in Russia, not for outside observers, but in Russia, as a
gain in popularity, MPs smartly.
He has very good advisors, they're a technocrat, so to say, political kind of technocrats. And he pedals right a guess. You know, that is unity
patriotism. Thank you, people. Thank you, Felicia, though that so he might come out as strong as he was inside, but outside people who are not
probably dead, mired by the propaganda.
Though there are some useful idiots so outside but what people will probably realize, and I hope that business people especially would be a
sober enough to realize that it's just another episode in degradation of Russia and the regime and Russia itself, unfortunately.
CHATTERLEY: Unfortunately, to your point are you said, don't underestimate President Putin's ability to turn this to his advantage, and actually to
gain popularity. Who is he under greatest threat from? You're saying the Russian people they see a lot of propaganda. So in many ways, they believe
what only what they see.
You've talked about the business people, perhaps in some of the oligarchs, and then you have the security forces. And in this case, the Wagner group,
who's the most at risk from could we see another kind of uprising like this from the Wagner group or from some other military force within the country?
Or is Wagner group now done and no longer a threat?
KOZYREV: Well, if I knew answers to that, I would be probably consulting or something, but I'm not so -- .
CHATTERLEY: Just thank you for confirming that.
KOZYREV: Yes, that's anybody's guess. But in a system like that, the system with, as I said, the Bulldogs or gangsters actually fighting coincide they
again, you'll never know. But of course, it is not their last one. This one probably went to the open. That's unusual, and probably to actually the
form of military, almost military, direct confrontation.
That's unusual, but that might be only first of many to come. And that's the danger of the long war in Ukraine.
And that's why I'm so critical of the Western stance of standing with your gray as long as it takes what if it is long as it takes booting to fail or
something that might be very long as I said, because inside, he has police state and propaganda state. So, but the law of war creates conditions very
good for warlords, and for generals and for security forces to claim their piece of pie, which is getting thinner, of course.
And the fight becomes more aggressive and weaponized in real terms, you know, like using real weapons, because the war provides, weapons provides
experience in the war and militaristic kind of environment where everything is possible. So that's very dangerous, because Russia is nuclear power, of
And some of those are lords sooner or later might start fighting for control of the ultimate weapon, so to say. So if I were consulting the
West, I would say, give the Ukraine the most powerful or long range weapons, whatever, do when, as soon as possible, not as long as it takes,
but as soon as possible.
It does not mean that the Russian regime would be better after defeat in Ukraine, but they wouldn't have this drive for a use of military force. If
he wins in you, they will be all up in the arms. I mean, literally in the arms. So that is very dangerous games. Long game is wrong.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, as one analyst said to me recently, perhaps better the devil you know, but at least they're contained in their own country versus
attacking another. Sir, great to have you on the show, thank you so much for your insights Andrei Kozyrev there the Former Russian Foreign Minister
so it will speak again soon. Thank you and -- we'll back after this, stay with "First Move".
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". After decades of booming growth, the commercial real estate industry has hit a wall. Property values are
plummeting, offices, in many cases stand empty and rising interest rates could pressure the industry even further. CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich joins us
now, Vanessa, great to have you on the show with us.
It's sort of the perfect storm sharply rising interest rates in the United States, a local banking credit crunch that they've tightened up
restrictions and not to mention people not going to work so much in cities. How big is this problem? And could it get worse?
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Julia, the commercial real estate industry is a $20 trillion market. And as you
mentioned, several factors are playing in here. One of the big ones is that Americans changed the way we wanted to work and businesses responded. So
you have high vacancy rates in the country right now about 19 percent. And that is leaving landlords in a bind. Without tenants, they have to come up
with creative ways in order to make money.
YURKEVICH (voice over): They're statuesque, vast and staggering. And they're empty. Skyscrapers and office buildings went stacked high with
businesses are experiencing high vacancy rates in the U.S. nearly 19 percent, five and a half percent higher than before the pandemic.
STEVEN DURELS, EVP & DIRECTOR OF LEASING, SL GREEN REALTY: I think it's a very unique moment nothing like any disruptive marketplace that I've
experienced over the past 40 years.
YURKEVICH (voice over): The pandemic emptied offices around the country. Today, the number of people returning to in person work is less than 50
percent in 10 major metro areas, forcing companies to rethink physical office space. Half of the biggest global companies say they'll need less
real estate in the next three years, leaving landlords with loans to pay in a bind.
YURKEVICH (on camera): If the personal -- tenant not making money, what do you do?
DURELS: There's no recouping you know, lost income for downtime.
YURKEVICH (voice over): Steven Durels runs the leasing at SL Green, New York City's largest commercial landlord, with more than 30 million square
feet of space to rent. The collapsing demand for office space means their tenant vacancy rate shot up from 3 percent pre pandemic to 10 percent today
that calls for some creativity.
AMANDA WEISENTHAL, HEAD OF SALES & PRODUCTION, BACKLOT: You can build a set in here; you can have a fight scene in here.
YURKEVICH (voice over): SL Green is now working with Backlot, a company that connects landlords 332 buildings across New York and New Jersey with
film and TV companies. This episode of Law and Order was filmed in this vacant office in midtown Manhattan, the watcher on Netflix and these East
WEISENTHAL: I think people are starting to look holistically at how they can support a revenue stream.
YURKEVICH (voice over): This year SL Green says it will earn $3 million from film and TV shoots.
DURELS: It's really helped mitigate the loss of income during the downtime periods.
YURKEVICH (voice over): Empty office buildings could be turned into residential, a big need. This project in Washington DC once an office
building is being turned into apartments, but that's not an easy quick fix process.
Less than 1 percent of apartments nationwide are converted from commercial properties. And across the river in Arlington, Virginia, the city is trying
to get ahead of its empty office space problem at 22 percent.
RYAN TOUHILL, DIRECTOR, ARLINGTON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: I'm sitting right today in northeastern DC campus. Last year, university was not allowed to
take up space in an office building.
YURKEVICH (voice over): Thanks to new city zoning laws, that's now possible along with seven new types of commercial businesses like animal boarding,
hydroponic farms, and Pickleball. It's already happening in South Jersey, this 22,000 square foot Pickleball facility was a vacant Burlington Coat
Factory in a strip mall. Regional mall vacancy, is that a record high?
YURKEVICH (on camera): Were there a lot of options like this on the market?
ANDREW PESSANO, CO-OWNER, PROSHOT PICKLEBALL: Yes, I think we had more opportunity than we thought there would be in the market.
YURKEVICH (on camera): Pickleball is the fastest growing sport in America. So does that mean that the sport needs to find places to play quickly?
PESSANO The greatest threat to the growth of Pickleball is the lack of facilities.
YURKEVICH: Now, Pickleball is obviously a great way to attract people into a building. But you can't throw up Pickleball courts in every single
skyscraper in major cities that have vacant office space. But landlords we spoke to say that businesses need to reimagine the space in which workers
want to work in order to attract them back.
So we're hearing from landlords that many companies are redoing their office spaces, creating higher ceilings, natural light, perks in the
office, like better cafeterias, and food options, Julia. But you know, the big banks are the ones that really provide the lending, the financing for
these landlords, they're not on the same page right now.
I just want to take you through a few of them, Bank of America saying that this commercial real estate concern is manageable. Morgan Stanley says on
the other hand, it's going to be worse than the financial crisis and then UBS somewhere in the middle saying that the headlines are worse than
So even the banks not really on the same page with this and the outlook. But we are seeing creativity in the way that landlords are repurposing
commercial space. The problem is that there's still too much of it, especially in major cities right now, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, perhaps one way to analyze the viewpoints from those banks on this is to look at their loan books and understand how much exposure
they all have to commercial real estate just suggesting. Vanessa, great to have you with us, thank you.
OK, coming up after the break, bringing some hopeful intelligence perhaps to the debate around artificial intelligence. All we need to see worrying
about terminators taking over, and perhaps missing more obvious dangers at play, that conversation up next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. Every day we hear more about the potential good, the Bad and the Ugly when it comes to the development and use of generative
artificial intelligence. Well, my next guest Aidan Gomez is a former Google Researcher and is now looking to harness the power of this technology on
He believes AI will one day be our interface to the online world when it comes to asking for something in plain English like this, rather than
clicking through 30 links on Google Search like this. He also believes recent warnings that AI could lead to human extinction are a dangerous
narrative and also irresponsible, because they prey on our fears of Terminator style killer bots.
What about a six month pause in AI development? He says that's absurd and a distraction from the real risks as he'll explain. Gomez is Co-Founder at
Cohere, an AI platform for enterprise. He just raised $270 million worth of funding and signed a major partnership with Oracle.
And Aidan Gomez joins us now, Aidan, fantastic to have you on the show. Let's start by explaining what you do at Cohere? What are you offering
enterprise or business customers?
AIDAN GOMEZ, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, COHERE AI: So we build a platform, which lets enterprises use large language models, which are these latest
generation of AI models, the Power Chat GPT. And we do it in a way that's completely cloud agnostic. So on Oracle, on AWS, Azure, Google, wherever
you are, we can bring our models to your data, privately and securely.
CHATTERLEY: So you're actually developing and building providing the data that trains these models for these customers, then, as you say, anybody can
use it no matter what platform you're using, how expensive is that to create, to train these models, these large language models, and how many
people are involved in doing so?
GOMEZ: Yes, so to clarify, we build, we collect both the data and we also build the models. So we scrape a lot of data from the web, we also generate
our own data in house. And then we train that on a massive supercomputer. And so it is very expensive, it's very capital intensive; these
supercomputers are some of the largest most complex machines humans have built. And so it does take a great deal of capital.
CHATTERLEY: So you don't have people actually cleaning up filtering. Individuals are looking at this data in order to ensure or to reduce the
amount of kind of hallucinations. We talk a lot about this on the show and the quality of the data that trains these models, vital.
GOMEZ: Extremely vital, it's like extraordinarily sensitive to the point where, you know, dataset of millions and millions of examples. If you have
10 examples, which are incorrect, or demonstrate the wrong behavior, you can mess up the whole model.
So increasingly, I feel like these companies like Cohere, that are building massive language models. It's kind of like rocket engineering, where you
have this big team, a bunch of different teams focusing on different components. And if anyone messes up, the rocket blows up.
And so it's extremely, extremely sensitive, very, very precise.
CHATTERLEY: So how many people have you got doing that? Because I think you've, you've sort of made my point for me in terms of the dangers. And
we've seen it, you know, we've watched in the past with journalist interviewing ChatGPT star models, and they start talking to them about
leaving their wives and marrying them, because they were trained on romance novels that we all know, how dodgy this can be, if you get the data set
wrong, that's training them.
How many people do you outsource this? I mean, as you said, you scrape the internet, but that's not cleaning it up and ensuring that the clients that
you provide this to are getting the right kind of training model that's accurate for their business or, or their requirements.
GOMEZ: Yes, so we use two different strategies. The first is we use scalable computational strategies. So we use the models themselves to
filter the data. And so there's like a positive feedback loop where as your model gets better, it gets better at cleaning the data to train the next,
the next model.
The second strategy is yes, we put this data in front of humans, and we ask humans to generate it. And so we're getting human eyes on each data point
checking whether it's of the sort that we want our models to, to observe.
CHATTERLEY: OK, so that gives me some degree of comfort that there is human overlay involved in them in this process. Why would Oracle, sign a
partnership with you or AWS? Why not do it in house for them? I mean, I appreciate its capital intensive, but why outsource this to you or bring
you in with your expertise?
And you I guess understand the question better than most because you're a researcher at Google. So you understand still the process they go through.
GOMEZ: Yes, so I think this project, the creation of these models, this category of generative AI, it's one of the most complex projects that we've
undertaken in computer science as a field. There's very few people on Earth who know how to do this. Some estimates put it at around 300 to 400 people.
And so frankly, there's just not enough of us on the planet for everyone to be doing this in house themselves. There need to be independent players
like Cohere, who can serve on all different cloud platforms and who aren't bound to anyone.
So I think I'm super excited about the partnership with Oracle, because we're going to be training and deploying for all of Oracle's customers. And
so, there's a lot to be done, but it doesn't necessarily need to be done in house. Cohere has put together an extraordinary team with extremely rare
knowledge and expertise. And it's exciting to be able to partner with someone, it's fantastic and with so much breadth as Oracle.
CHATTERLEY: I appreciate you pointing out about efficiency as well and sharing resources. OK. Talk to me about your punchy comments. Because we've
gone through a period of a few months where we've gone from, look, we need a six month pause, in development to being AI Armageddon, and this sort of
technology in the wrong hands is going to make humans extinct. Aidan, you say it's ridiculous. Explain why and what we're missing as a result of the
drama and why the drama, actually from the industry too?
GOMEZ: Yes, I think it's a super salient, compelling narrative, right. Like, even before we had computers, humans have been telling stories about,
you know, our machines, becoming intelligent automatons, and then taking over the world. And so that is embedded into the public's consciousness in
such a deep way that spans literally a century.
And so when people look at this technology, they see how smart it is, they interact with it, it's so shocking, it's so surprising that we've been able
to develop something that's intelligent. They immediately look back to what they've heard in the past, which are these stories of doom and gloom. And
so I think that it's, it's misleading.
And it may be even distracts from the real problems that we're going to be facing. You mentioned some of those in the preamble, I think, social media.
For instance, the ability for us to spin up a million bots, which are indistinguishable from humans, because they're so fluent, becomes way, way,
way more plausible.
And there are other risks like this technology is still early, we have to remember that we're in the first year of its deployment; it's a baby as a
technology. And so there are places where it's not yet appropriate to deploy. We can't just replace, you know, doctors and judges, and stick in
AI. That's completely, that's a terrible idea.
And so there are real threats, but they're not extinction. They're not the annihilation of our species. They're much less, you know, gripping
narratives, but they're much more realistic and much more plausibly implementable today.
CHATTERLEY: Do you think it's a ploy by the industry to plum up investment? Get people excited, you know, whether we're going extinct or otherwise,
everybody's talking about AI? And that's the way perhaps to generate immediate sources of funding, because you're in the hottest, sexiest area.
And if it's a way to grab headlines, so be it. Do you think that's what's going on?
GOMEZ: I think, if I were a cynic, I would say yes, I think that people are genuinely concerned, I know that a lot of people in the field, especially
like who were very close to the research, myself included, we did not expect the technology to be where it is today. Today, we expect like I
expected it, maybe in a quarter century.
By the end of my career, if we had models could do what they're doing today; I would have thought we'd made incredible progress. And so the whole
field is reckoning with shock. Our timelines have been compressed in a way that really I think took everyone by surprise.
And one reaction to that shock, one reaction to grappling with that poor estimate that we all made, is to say, OK, now, anything's possible. Who
knows, maybe in five years, these models will be so capable that they'll, you know, take over the world. I think our imagination has just blown open
because we were so surprised by where the technology got to in such a short time.
CHATTERLEY: So the deep cynic in me is now sort of shrinking somewhat in the face of your shock, because I think you raise a great point about not
really knowing what's possible. But sort of raising the alarm bells in the interim, I'm just getting warmed up in amount of time. Aidan, you're going
to have to come back. We've got much more to discuss.
And I'm sure you're going to be doing more and quickly, as well as the company grows. Great to have you on and get your thoughts, thank you.
GOMEZ: Thank you, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Aidan Gomez there, Co-Founder and CEO of Cohere AI. All right, coming up after the break, some serious cruise controlling, standby for our
Becky Anderson, some breathtaking stunts oh, and then you go look at our Mission Impossible stuff by Tom Cruise. That's next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move" where it's time to raise our glass to one of Scotland's best known exports single malt whisky. Many bottles of
the region's most treasured tipple come from a place known as the Whisky Isle. And we transport you there in today's global connections.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Crashing waves, warring winds and snowcapped mountains. This is the Scottish Island of Ila. Its wild weather
can make it a marathon to get to. But a glass of the islands single malt whisky will transport you there in a second.
JACKIE THOMPSON, VISITOR CENTER MANAGER, ARDBEG: You have a brainy character which takes you to the end of the pier. I can smell the peat, I
smell the land, I can smell the botanicals. In fact, I can almost hear the birds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Scotland has long been synonymous with whisky. But this tiny island off the west coast could be considered the
crown jewel, known as the Whisky Isle is spirit's one of the island's largest employers. And it's home to nine soon to be 11 distilleries, one of
which Ardbeg broke records last year for selling a single cask of 1975 whisky for a staggering $19 million.
THOMPSON: On Ila news travels very fast. So it was talked about in the local supermarket and there was a feeling of -- real prayed and honesty
about it that somebody wanted to pay that much for a beautiful lot of liquid from 1975.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Today, whisky makes up over three quarters of Scotland's food and drink exports. More than $7 billion worth
of whisky was sold across 174 markets last year, with an average of 53 bottles being exported every second. Its popularity prompted a flurry of
new distilleries like Kilchoman the first to be built here in 124 years. But despite its youth, it's taking whisky distilling back to its roots.
ISLAY HEADS, GENERAL MANAGER, KILCHOMAN DISTRILLERY: Making whisky was traditionally done it by themselves. That's when it started. So the guys,
who'd have a bit of our left over the go a bit of barley, make whisky to see them through the winter. So we've grown the barley, malted barley on
site runs through the distillation process and then it's matured on site and Ila as well. And for us, that's very important because the whole
product comes from Ila.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Born and raised on the island, Ila believes these traditions give Ila scotch, a distinct taste that sets it
apart from mainland whisky.
HEADS: Whisky runs in island, which means, whisky has always been produced in Ila. My dad worked at -- in distillery for 35 plus years. My brother
works in one of the other distilleries locally and my son works in -- so we're all connected.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The liquid spirit carries the islands identity, its history, and its people to every corner of the planet.
HEADS: I'm very proud to be -- somebody from Ila, I'm very proud of what Ila brings to the -- whiskeys.
CHATTERLEY: OK, and one of the big questions since that aborted mutiny in Russia on Saturday is the whereabouts of the Wagner leader where we have
now confirmed according to the Belarus President, Lukashenko that Yevgeny Prigozhin has arrived in Belarus, he was quoted on Belarusian state TV as
saying, I see that Prigozhin is already flying on this plane.
Yes, indeed. He's in Belarus today. According to a senior European intelligence official speaking to CNN earlier, two private planes that had
been linked to Prigozhin landed in Minsk, the capital earlier on Tuesday morning.
They did not know the official whether Prigozhin was actually onboard either of those planes. But it does seem according to the Belarus
president, he has now arrived in Belarus. If we see and get any further details on that, or if indeed, we see Yevgeny Prigozhin, we will bring it
straight to you.
But for now, the breaking news just into CNN, it does appear that the Wagner leader as you see on your screen is now in the capital of Belarus,
Minsk. And that just about wraps up the show. If you've missed any of our interviews today, there'll be on my Twitter and Instagram pages. You can
search for @jchatterleycnn. And "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next.