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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Israeli Military: All Forces have Left Jenin; IAEA Signs off on Fukushima Waste Water Release; OPEC Seminar on Future Energy Starts in Vienna; Concept is a Hydrogen-Powered Flight 5X the Speed of Sound; Destinus Enters Race for High-Speed Flight; Yellen Heads to China for High- Level Talks. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired July 05, 2023 - 09:00   ET



MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: But you know they're going to get an extra event that they weren't expecting. There have been pretty good crowds out in

Edinburgh, not enormous crowds. But I think that is just the fact that they've played it down slightly. But we're waiting for the guard of honor

to get in their positions, and then the King will come out with the Queen as well

BIANCA NOBILO, CNN HOST: Mentioned by our guests earlier, but it is truly poignant, Queen Elizabeth II, she passed away in Scotland, then there were

all these ceremonial events that take place as part of that process, and the mourning in Scotland as well. And now we see the next Monique, her son,

here in very different circumstances in tone to celebrate his new reign.

FOSTER: Yes, and members of the Royal Family will see there when she was not lying in state, the coffin was lying in the cathedral. And this is the

first time I think that they will be back in the cathedral since then.

But this is the nature of monarchy, isn't it? They pass from one to another, and they do it through death, and you pick up the job straight

away. Huge challenge for King Charles but this is all part of the process, but also part of the healing something that he's always been, you know,

geared up for and trained for by the Queen, you know, he knew this moment was coming.

So it's not going to be a shock to him. But I think that combined with the religious elements of the service, and the fact that he does hold Scotland

very dear, is going to be you know you're going to see on his face in the service, I think it's going to be a very sort of straight laced, solemn


He has, it's not entirely clear how he's going to be using Balmoral, which is where the Queen would spend all of his summers and he would go and stay

with her. He's got a house on the Balmoral Estate, which used to belong to the Queen's mother. He's been there, I've interviewed him there. He's very

fond of it.

I don't know whether he's going to move into the larger house. There's this whole debate going on about the whole Royal Estate. And whether or not with

a slimmed down monarchy, you need all of these buildings, and he's really driving forward this idea that you can rent a lot of them out. And he's

doing that with Frogmore Cottage where Harry has just vacated.

NOBILO: It's fascinating to see those changes take place and see those adaptations being made to fit a modern society, a society which is

struggling economically, and the honors of Scotland that we just saw, which are the crown jewels of Scotland, even though they can seem perhaps

superficial to some people. They are imbued with that sense of continuity, that symbolism of a hard one constitutional monarchy, of which as you were

just saying, King Charles is one of hundreds.

FOSTER: Yes, absolutely. And I mean, when we talk about properties as well, this the Palace of Hollywood House is the seat of the monarchy in Scotland,

it is largely an admin building, because, you know, it deals with all of the Scottish correspondence and everything there.

But you can actually still see the ruins on the grounds where the original Augustine Abbey was ordered by King David I of Scotland. We're going way

back the history here is quite something when you compare it to a lot of the London history.

And the name Hollywood comes from, well, we're not really sure but it's either from the legendary vision of the cross witnessed by the King or from

the relic of the True Cross known as the Holyroodhouse Palace.

NOBILO: That makes sense to me logically.

FOSTER: And it was Mary Queen of Scots that was probably the most famous resident of that Palace. And she was actually the first one to be crowned

with a crown that we're going to see later on today. Obviously, Charles isn't going to be crowned.

There we are the King and Queen in full ceremonial wear. So this is actually a really significant gesture to the people of Scotland because

this isn't what we saw with Queen Elizabeth II and maybe response this is a national anthem.

So a short drive from Holyroodhouse, the Palace or the seat of Monarchy in Scotland, down to St. Giles Cathedral, which has been there for nearly a

millennia, and which is where a special service with Thanksgiving celebration for the coronation of King Charles III will take place.

We saw the Prince and Princess of Wales so you haven't got the full contingent of the Royal Family. I know the -- for example at a separate

event here in London to mark the anniversary of the NHS.


That this is very high level monarchy operating in Scotland where they are the monarchy in Scotland as well, even though it no longer operates as a

separate state, pretty good crowds out as well. I think that'd be very positive for Charles to see on his way through to the cathedral because you

always question yourself as a Monarch, are you popular, particularly when you leave England?

And it seems as though he is. And this whole event has actually been masterminded by the Scottish National Party government of Scotland. And

they are an independence driven campaign. But they're clearly throwing their support behind the monarchy. I think that's interesting.

NOBILO: And the monarchy in response from what you were saying, fascinating to see them in full ceremonial garb, and how that's a mark of respect and a

sign of showing optimum effort basically, for the people of Scotland that they're bringing their very best their very finest for the people.

I also noticed that the Princess of Wales, she's in blue, I wonder if that's a coincidence, or that's part of the Scottish National Flag, the

national colors being blue and white.

FOSTER: Could be. The limousines were brought up from London for this ceremony, I think there is -- there will be high hopes amongst the crowd

that they will stop short of the cathedral and perhaps do a bit of a walk.

I think it's probably more appropriate, though, to do it on the way out, they'll come out of the church, perhaps speak to some people, it's very

important, but there seem to be amongst people, particularly when they go to Scotland to be specific amongst the Scottish people.

London is much more representative, isn't it, the United Kingdom, whereas Edinburgh is, you know, it's an international city in many ways, because of

what's based there. It's very much seen as a very Scottish city with all the history that comes with it.

NOBILO: And the links are so deep, so historic, but frequently, historically speaking, as well strained, and now is a time when this could

be quite potent, soft diplomacy for the Royal Family.

FOSTER: I mean it's certainly the original event. I mean, this event doesn't go back generations, but certainly the Queen carried out this

event, and it is about showing that you're taking Scotland seriously. It might be a long way from London, but they've got homes here.

And they take their role as Head of the Scottish Monarchy as much as the British Monarchy extremely seriously. And, you know, you know, when the

crowns were merged it was effectively wasn't it Elizabeth I who didn't have any children, and the next in line to the throne was the King of Scotland.

So that's how these two crowns came together through the family and eventually, you had the political union.

NOBILO: And it's interesting now to see in action, the slimmed down monarchy that you have spoken about so much and we've heard discussed, but

to see essentially the core four if we can call them that --

FOSTER: The core four --

NOBILO: Yes, perhaps we're calling that the King and Queen and the Prince and Princess of Wales or to use their Scottish titles.

FOSTER: The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay, which are obviously titles that Charles and Camilla had before they became King the Queen. So they have

different titles now a different set of titles, as well in Wales and in Northern Ireland.

And also, you know, when they get down to Cornwall, they use the titles Duke and Duchess of Cornwall now as well. You have long term -- we say

Charles King in the United Kingdom, I mean, these titles go on for pages. So you've got some cheering flags, you've got lots of British fans and

notice actually, which is interesting. Oh, they've got some booing. Do you hear that booing?

NOBILO: I did hear that booing. Yes, there it is again,

FOSTER: I didn't get an email from the Republican campaign that they were hoping to have a presence there. Let's just listen for a moment see how big

it is?


OK, so we can see the Prince and Princess of Wales, going into the cathedral, there's been standing there gloriously for 900 years. So the

amount of history that will unfold within that church will be extraordinary. And we will see Charles not crown today.

But we will see him presented with the crown of Scotland, which is effectively redundant, because it's now a crown for the United Kingdom. And

that's kept at the Tower of London. But it is deeply symbolic of Scotland's deep history. And it's very dearly held. And this is a real tribute from

Charles to the people of Scotland and his expression of duty to that nation.

NOBILO: And we should acknowledge, as I'm sure our viewers noticed that was an audible display of the tensions that do exist, the national anthem being

played, but over a fairly loud chanting of not my King.

Now, we would understand that people who are pro Republican or anti- monarchy might gravitate to an event like this to make that point. But that kind of was easy for him to hear, as he was walking in.

FOSTER: He's had it a bit -- hasn't it was very audible. I'm wondering, I mean, it's very difficult without having someone on the ground to know how

many people there were. And you know, they really -- those streets, you know, the high buildings does carry the sound there.

But certainly, it was really audible. And the fact that we heard it on the feed is notable, because, you know, people are going to see that they're

going to hear it, and it's going to be used again, and it's going to be raised the question now is he wanted as a King, in Scotland, in the UK.

He's had, I mean, I think all the experts would agree he's handled himself better than many people expected, since he took on the crown. But it's such

a challenge with the changing dynamics in the UK and around the world. And as you've been pointing out, you know, the clash of what we see there and

that extravagance, against, you know, the tough lives that people are living with the cost of living crisis.

NOBILO: It really is a tight road to preserve the some of the pomp and pageantry that the nation expects that the world expects, but in an

appropriate way that seems modern, and also modest enough for the economic climate.

FOSTER: Thank you for watching. We'll bring you highlights of the service inside a bit later on in the day. I'm Max foster in London,

NOBILO: And I'm Bianca Nobilo. "First Move" with Julia Chatterley is up for you next.



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: And a warm welcome to "First Move". This Wednesday amid warnings of a possible attack on Europe's biggest

nuclear power facility in Ukraine; the Kremlin says the potential for sabotage to the Zaporizhzhia plant by Kyiv is high quote. Meanwhile,

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees Russia is the only source of danger "To the facility". CNN's Scott McLean has been monitoring


SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Julia, the rhetoric has really ramped up here. And of course, when we're talking about Europe's largest nuclear

power plant, there is not a heck of a lot of room for error or potential miscalculation.

But President Zelenskyy is now making a very bold and very specific allegation and that is that Ukrainian intelligence has information that

objects that look like explosive devices have been placed on the roofs of several power units of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant perhaps to

simulate a Ukrainian attack on the plant.

This is a suggestion that he's made a few days ago, but hasn't provided any evidence as yet. Zelenskyy insisted in his nightly address that "Russia is

the only source of danger when it comes to the plant". Now Zelenskyy is essentially repeating what the military the Ukrainian military has

previously said.

And that is that any kind of explosion they believe would look like Ukrainian shelling, but wouldn't be strong enough to actually damage the

power units themselves. Last week, Ukraine started doing drills amongst emergency services, according to the Deputy Defense Minister happening in

four regions to prepare for the fallout of any potential terrorist attack carried out by Russia on the plant.

The Zaporizhzhia local governor on the Ukrainian side also says that Ukrainian Special Forces are also prepared for this kind of outcome if it

were to come to it. The Russians, though, of course, they deny that there is any kind of a threat coming from their side.

They've previously pointed out that IAEA inspectors are on site and have the run of the place that they would like to. And today, the Kremlin

Spokesperson said that the situation is high, but insisted that the threat is from the Ukrainian side and that the potential for sabotage is high and

obviously warned that the consequences would be in his words, catastrophic.

The Russians also say that they're taking their own measures in that possible outcome. Now the reactors themselves are housed in containment

buildings, which are meant to be able to withstand the force of an accidentally crashed plane.

What would happen, you know when weapons of war were fired in that direction? We simply don't have a clear answer to that. And also remember

that there are cooling ponds that are right out in the open that are used to store those spent nuclear fuel rods and they have no protection at all.

The good news here is that there have been some reassuring statements coming out of the nuclear officials on both the Ukrainian side and the

Russian occupied side as well as saying that essentially the situation is stable, the background radiation levels are normal. The Russian occupied

side called the Ukrainian claims of potential Russian false flag operations "Garbage" Julia.

CHATTERLEY: And to the Middle East now, where tensions remain high after Israeli forces say they've launched new airstrikes in Gaza after a

Palestinian rocket attack. The attack comes just hours after Israeli forces withdrew from Jenin after completing their largest military operation in

the West Bank in 20 years.

The operation was centered on a refugee camp that Israeli officials called "A hornet's nest" the terrorist activity. Palestinian officials say at

least 12 people lost their lives and more than 100 were injured in the airstrikes and subsequent raids. Funerals are now underway for those killed

with thousands marching in the streets.

Hadas Gold joins us now. Hadas you can talk to me about the aftermath and the cleanup operation in Jenin set to calm. But can you talk to me also

about the air strikes on Gaza. What more do we know about that and what the target was?


HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, what happened was as the Israeli military was leaving Jenin, five rockets were fired by

Palestinian militants in Gaza towards Southern Israel. Now, the Israeli military saying all five were intercepted with the Israeli military then in

retaliation struck some Hamas sites.

What they said were Hamas weapons and rocket sites in Gaza. And we don't have any injuries reported, either in Gaza or in Southern Israel. There's

just material damages and to be honest, that what happened in Gaza is sort of a side story to really what is the main story and that is what's been

happening in Jenin.

So the Israeli military saying that their military operation this incursion into Jenin is now over, after nearly two full days, the largest Israeli

military operation in the occupied West Bank since the days of the Second Intifada since 2002. And they were, as they say, trying to dismantle Jenin

as a safe haven for militants.

They say that they found dozens of weapons storage sites they say that they found hundreds of explosives they say that they tore up IEDs in the

streets, and that's why they took those bulldozers to the streets. Of course, for the civilians there thousands of civilians fled the refugee

camp over the last two days to try to avoid the violence.

We do know that one Israeli soldier was killed during this two day operation. We believe that he was killed yesterday and 12 Palestinians were

killed as well. Now the Israeli military is asserting that all of those killed were combatants. And we are hearing from militant groups that they

are claiming at least some of them as their fighters.

We do know, though, that amongst the more than 100 injured, and the Israeli military is acknowledging this as well that civilians were injured. And we

just look at the aftermath of what happened in the Jenin refugee camp, you can understand why of course, there will be some civilians caught in the


Just the sheer amount of damages not only to the roads, and to houses, to buildings, even to hospitals, but also to the infrastructure there, the

electricity and water was severely damaged during this operation. We are hearing just in the last couple hours now that electricity seems to

potentially be coming back to some people there.

But there is extensive damage, and there will be extensive cleanup. There have been funerals today for all 12 of those Palestinians that were killed

there being buried in a grave altogether. And what's notable during these funeral processions that thousands attended are two things.

One thing is that militants were out in the open there. These were masked militants with their guns shooting off with their flags. And I think that's

a clear message to the Israelis and to others saying, we're still here, you might have had this big massive operation saying that you've reached your


But whatever you say about trying to remove Jenin as a safe haven for militants. The militants still felt, you know, confident enough to go out

on the streets during these funerals and to show off essentially. Another thing that's interesting that's happened is during some of the funerals,

Palestinian Authority officials were chased out by angry crowds.

Now you can take that as two ways both potentially as the Palestinian Authority, not having much authority in Jenin, but also potentially anger

at the Palestinian Authority over what happened over the last few days. Perhaps a feeling of the Palestinian Authority didn't do enough or didn't

do anything to try to stave off this offensive by the Israeli military, Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, certainly seems to be a show of resilience. Hadas Gold, thank you for that. Now the Head of the International Atomic Energy Agency

is in Japan trying to use fears surrounding the crippled Fukushima Nuclear Plant.

The IAEA saying, Tuesday that releasing treated radioactive water from the plant is safe both for people and the environment. But many remain

concerned and their worries are shared by the Chinese government too. Marc Stewart has the details.

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even though Japan is moving forward to release the treated wastewater from the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power

Plant sometime this summer, there are still some critics. The reservations come from here in Japan for example, fishermen worried about their


That's in addition to skepticism across Asia and other parts of the world. CNN traveled to the plant in April there we saw some of the facilities used

to filter and dilute the water. While there will be remnants of a radioactive element known as tritium it falls under the international


According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, Japan wants to gradually released more than 1 million metric tons of filtered water in the

Pacific part of the process to slowly decommission the plant. Still, not everyone is convinced this is the right thing to do including the Chinese

government is a topic that came up at a recent briefing at its Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


MAO NING, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON: The report cannot green light the discharge as it cannot prove that ocean discharge is the only

option where the safest and most reliable option.


China once again urges Japan to in a responsible attitude for the whole humanity and our future generations stop pushing through the discharge



STEWART: The IAEA will establish an office here in Japan to monitor the process a task that could take years to complete. Marc Stewart, CNN, Tokyo.

CHATTERLEY: OK, coming up here on "First Move", defending Dubai, the CEO of Crescent Petroleum tells us why he thinks the UAE is the ideal bridge

between rich and poor nations in the quest for a sustainable climate. We're talking COP 28, stay with us.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", just days after Saudi Arabia and Russia announced further cuts to crude output to an OPEC conference on the

future of energy is getting going in Vienna. This week, the Saudis extended their cut of 1 million barrels per day through August, while Russia said

its cutting exports by another half a million barrels.

All prices, of course, remain a key driver of global inflation and economic growth even as the world looks to renewable forms of energy. No nation

understands that better than the UAE one of the largest oil producers and host of this year's COP 28 summit.

And our next guest says the Emirates are the perfect bridge between "hypercritical richer nations", with their, hypocritical forgive me, richer

countries with a recent ramp up of subsidies and use of other energy sources like coal and skeptical poor nations that are badly in need of more

finance for adapting to a warmer climate.

And joining us now is Majid Jafar CEO of Crescent Petroleum, the Middle East largest privately owned Oil and Gas Company. Majid, fantastic to have

you on the show, let's just touch on those shifts by the Saudis and by Russia in the past week, the oil price barely reacted.


It's tough to sort of penetrate the belief that we're not going to see a significant rise I think in all demand this year. Is that you're thinking


MAJID JAFAR, CEO, CRESCENT PETROLEUM: So I think, you know, there are clearly some of the big national producers who would like to keep the price

within the sort of $80 to $100 range. At the moment, the bearish sentiments that are keeping it slightly below that are driven by two factors. One is

fears of persistent inflation, and risk of recession.

And the other is the less than, less than expected rebound economically in China. So fundamentally, it still boils down to demand and supply. And of

course, your show has been covering those two trends. And they're ultimately the trends in my view that are going to dictate the oil price.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, we do our best. There's far less noise, I think I'm concerned. And there was in the initial stages of the outbreak of war in

Ukraine, which has been a key determinant, I think, and a driver of this too. The irony is, and you've pointed it out in a number of op-eds, and it

sort of ties to the bigger conversation that we're going to have.

In light of that we saw effective energy subsidies rise, particularly in European nations, a use of dirtier forms of energy, like coal, despite the

push from those rich nations to the global south and poor nations that we need to transition to renewable energies. It's sort of created a level of


I think you call it and it's a good word heading into COP 28. How deep is that sort of resentment? And the challenge between the two sides, sort of a

do as I say, don't do as I do.

JAFAR: Exactly, this never worked when parents try it. We've, seen that in multiple international organizations, but COP is one also the U.N. World

Bank, IMF, and, and so on. So fundamentally, energy is the lifeblood of any economy. But it's like health for a human being you can take it for granted

when you have it.

But when suddenly, as in last winter, supplies were put at risk, it becomes everybody's priority. And we need to balance the affordability and the

availability with the sustainability. There's so called energy trilemma. At the moment, we're failing on all three. And the policies that have been

pushed of starving investment from key sectors such as oil and gas.

In the hope that would somehow lead to dealing with climate change that makes about as much sense as trying to deal with obesity by denying loans

to farmers and doing nothing about how the consumption takes place, because that's ultimately what's driving the emissions.

So as you said, the developing countries see on that they are supposed to make do with intermittent supplies not have financed for stable power

supply, while Western countries have been burning more coal, have been subsidizing energy consumption, although they don't use the word but that's

ultimately what the energy support has been.

And is also going scrambling around the developing countries such as in Africa, to buy natural gas from those countries in the form of LNG for

their own use, when they had previously refused to finance it for domestic use. So there is this growing divide. And last year in -- , the language

turned to loss and damage, essentially reparations, the developing world asking ritual countries to compensate them for the damage caused by the

climate change.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I think your parent child analogy is an interesting one, in particular, because it's bad parenting taking place in many respects if

that's the case. Let's talk about the money because we were just talking to the climate envoy, U.S. climate envoy, John Kerry, about a recent meeting

on a Global Financing Pact.

And he was talking about, among many things, the importance of the private sector, in leveraging cash to help some of these nations, mitigate the

effects of climate change, but also enact the process of transition, which was simply not seeing enough of, but also perhaps some of the bigger

institutions like the IMF and the World Bank, changing their business model.

You obviously come from that sort of private sector of this, what do you think's most potent, particularly given the sheer level of investment in

renewables that we're seeing in the UAE and the Middle East for all the criticism?

JAFAR: So, the private sector is important, but ultimately, it's going to take government support and the Western countries that promised $100

billion a year back in 2009, and that hasn't come forward. What we're seeing instead is the U.S. wanting to spend a trillion dollars at home.

Europe, wanting to spend a trillion Euros within the EU even though, emissions in those two regions has actually been falling for decades. And

it's leading to a sort of trade protectionism and competition between the EU and U.S. at the expense of the developing world.


People like John Kerry and others will admit that actually developing world needs more like a trillion dollars a year and Prime Minister Modi of India

has made that point. So one thing that people have called for is a new institution like a World Carbon Bank that can channel both the funds and

the technical assistance from the Western countries.

That has actually been responsible for most of the carbon emissions to the developing countries. You mentioned the U.A.E. a massive investor in all

forms of energy, including renewables in over 40 countries around the world through muster, which is why I think it makes a natural host for the

upcoming COP 28 meeting in Dubai as a bridge between growing the north south divide that we can see, currently.

CHATTERLEY: There was initial skepticism. Do you think some of that has dissipated now? And certainly from my conversations in previous cops,

there's been a lack of engagement from the oil and gas community a sense that they're purely the problem and are excluded from the discussions of

how we transition.

And the interim period, not just the short term, and then the long term, but how we ensure we don't have an energy crisis in the middle of that

process of transition. I know that's crucial to your business, the majority of which, of course, is in gas.

JAFAR: So COP 26 was in Scotland, and oil and gas producer, COP 27 was in Egypt and oil and gas producers, were going to need oil and gas. For

decades to come those calling for an end and investment in oil and gas, they have the right to do that. But they should send stop using it.

Don't drive any cars, trains, boats. Don't use any computers that made the -- smartphones don't rely on heat and or air conditioning, depending on

where you live for 24 hours because none of that is possible without oil and gas. And by starving the investment, you're leading to price shocks,

supply shocks, and you're actually leading to more energy poverty and burning of coal in developing countries.

So the basic approach that's been taken as far as failed from our point of view as a major producer of gas, we now 85 percent of our production in the

Middle East is natural gas. We brought our emissions and flaring down to near zero and offset the remainder with carbon credits supporting renewable

energy in Asia, to declare and achieve net zero across our operations.

Back in 21, we've maintained that but more importantly, the gas we produce by displacing diesel actually avoids more than 5 million tons of Co2

emissions annually, which is actually more than all the Tesla cars on the planet. So the role of gas in the transition, displacing coal, as it has in

U.K. in the U.S., or liquid fuels in our region in the Middle East is fundamental.

And you're still going to need oil, everything that transition will rely upon whether it's the electric cars themselves, solar panels, or wind

turbines, they're actually all major oil. And so how we use it will change, we won't be burning it as much it'll be making things and how we produce it

must get cleaner.

But there is an important role for the sector and just deep plat forming oil, gas, nuclear and coal as happen unfortunately, in Glasgow COP 26. The

sector is responsible for 90 percent of world energy is not going to lead to positive outcomes. So I think this inclusive cop that's coming up in

Dubai will bring together all sectors and all countries for hopefully a much better way forward.

CHATTERLEY: Fingers crossed into your point. I think there's been already chronic underinvestment which we're paying for and will pay a greater price

for very quickly, because I have about a minute, fast forward 20 years for your business. What's the makeup then you said you're 85 percent now

focused on oil? What's the split in 20 years?

JAFAR: So 85 percent -- gas.

CHATTERLEY: Sorry, gas.

JAFAR: Which I think is going to be an important part, not just of the transition. I mean, the reality is today, solar and wind power can't be

stored. All the batteries in the world can store about 1.5 minutes of global energy demand. So until we've tackled that storage challenge, and

there are physics laws that are sort of in the way, we will need something to back it up.

So nuclear that you've just been talking about and natural gas are the cleaner forms of stable power, which then enable renewables. So, so far

renewables is growing, but it's a supplement to the other forms of energy rather than replacement and that's, -- .

CHATTERLEY: Yes, something's got to give and the investment has to dramatically ramp up. I'm just scratching the surface, come back and talk

to you soon please. I've run out of time. I'd love to talk more in depth about your business and forgive me for the oil, gas switch natural gas, and

I didn't know that.

Majid Jafar, the CEO of Crescent Petroleum there, sir, thank you and fingers crossed for COP 28. OK, still to come take a look at what might

become the passenger plane of the future.


Its developers promise to take you halfway around the weld at just a fraction of today's speeds. The CEO joins us next.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", it's only 20 years since the Concorde made its final commercial flight ending the first era of

supersonic travel will now one company is rewriting the rules European startup Destinus wants to use hydrogen fueled engines for sustainable long

range flight designing a plane.

That it says will fly at five times the speed of sound one day that would cut travel times between any two cities by three quarters. Destinus is

moving full speed ahead having successfully flight tested two prototypes and revealing the Destinus 3 at the Paris Air Show last month.

The plan is to launch the world's first commercial hypersonic plane by 2030. Joining us now to discuss all, Mikhail Kokorich, he is the Founder

and CEO of Destinus. Mikhail, great to have you on the show, the hope is that you can provide something super-fast and super clean and hydrogen is

the way of doing it. Just explain the technology behind these flights and what you're hoping to achieve?

MIKHAIL KOKORICH, FOUNDER & CEO OF DESTINUS: Yes, thank you. We believe that hydrogen not only the clean fuel for the future aviation, but it also

enables hypersonic speed. Because while supersonic it means to be hot, it's like -- ? When you enter the atmosphere at high speed, you're hot.

And hydrogen, it's not only the highest energy density fuel. It's also the very best coolant that you can imagine. So, you can use hydrogen to cool

your plane and cool the air will come in so the engines to make able to fly faster.

CHATTERLEY: OK, so just to be clear, no plane I don't think has ever reached supersonic speed powered by hydrogen and we're going to come back

to that. But let's just talk about the prototype because I believe that integrates hydrogen afterburners into the turbojet and then ramjet engines

which can run on traditional fuels.

So you're sort of hedging your bets in some regard, at least as far as the prototype is concerned. When do you expect to be fully hydrogen for both?

KOKORICH: So the next year we going to start flying with a hydrogen afterburner and there was a turbojet engine be fueled by kerosene.



KOKORICH: And the purpose of this basically to demonstrate that you can fly was hydrogen afterburner and finally it was hydrogen pre-cooler. But then

basically you're after we're going to fly in parallel with the hydrogen boats on the turbojet engine and in afterburner.

CHATTERLEY: The -- those skeptics out there that are saying, look, and despite your talk of the coolant and the cooling power, that they're not

comfortable burning hydrogen in an aircraft, and actually the amount of hydrogen simply that it takes to send a plane on long distances. And also,

where do you store it on the plane? Mikhail, go through each one of those separately and explain why you're not worried or you have a solution?

KOKORICH: Yes, definitely hydrogen is a very low density fuel. So with basically the same proportion of the fuel, biomass, like was a conventional

subsonic plane 30 to 40 percent. Your volume wise, you basically spend 60 to 65 percent of the volume for hydrogen. So you're playing its look a

little bit like a rocket, where the actually the fuel is almost everywhere.

Yes, and this is like one of the big changes, but if you look to any new hydrogen concept, even subsonic one, you will see that they really have

much bigger fuel things. And this is a disadvantage of hydrogen, but at the same time, hydrogen for five times better fuel than kerosene, biomass.

CHATTERLEY: OK, talk to me about what we're seeing on screen because I'm sure you can see it, this is an aircraft is expecting to carry how many

people at least in the beginning?

KOKORICH: Yes, so we initially we want to build, I would say, a reasonably small aircraft, it's not small, it's maybe the size of Boeing 737. But

because it's a total lot of volume for the hydrogen this plane will be able to give you a few dozens of people 20 to 30 people. On this plane will be

able to fly from Paris to New York 1 and 1.5.


KOKORICH: But the main advantage of this plane that you can use basically exists in turbojet engines and basically augments these engines with

hydrogen fuel. So you don't need to reinvent the core, the most complex core in the engine turbojet path. It can be the same, you just put hydrogen

afterburner, you put -- , you put ramjet, which is a pretty simple engine.

And then you can basically fly -- you may still have to budget on kerosene or you can convert turbojet kerosene. But still, it's not a development of

the new engine, which is a humongous exercise. And then, in some years, 10 years after this, we'll be able to do much bigger thing with a new turbojet

engines is bigger, much bigger one.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and this is the key, that's why those two questions seemingly disconnected but are connected, because there are also those that

say, look, the best use of hydrogen, if we're talking aviation is with E fuels. So a sort of synthetic form of a sustainable aviation fuel, rather

than design an entirely different propulsion system for an aircraft, which is kind of what we're talking about here.

KOKORICH: I agree, that sustainable aviation fuel is very valuable option for subsonic flights, where the basically the main motivation to move to

another fuel is like the clearness or the green console of the kerosene. But when you're talking about hypersonic flight, this is, in fact, the

absolutely new reality for the plane.

Because plane flying is such a high speed five, six of speed of sounds. So then the some parts of your plane start to be extremely hot. And also the

air that come to your parents become very hot, which reduce efficiency of your engine. And then here's the hydrogen voltage.

So hydrogen is 50 times better coolant than kerosene. So you can use the same hydrogen, which you combust in your engine before to cool your

structure, who you air and you can build it from more or less conventional materials like steel, you don't need to put on top of your vehicle.

The ceramic tiles like a spaceship or windshields very fragile, very heavy, you can use steel make a starship, like when a starship rocket and pull the

steel with a hydrogen, which makes your plan much cheaper and more reliable.

CHATTERLEY: I'm very excited at the prospect of seeing one of these. What was the response that you've got at the Paris Air Show? And I'm sure one of

the first questions you were asked beyond the safety was how much is this going to cost me? How does it compare to an average commercial aircraft

flight ticket? Let's assume business class, yes.

KOKORICH: It's actually a very good question. But you know, in the cost of the flight, the main component is the cost of fuel.


KOKORICH: Because the cost of plane is actually depreciate over the dozens of years of flights. So if you're talking about the few actually hydrogen

as not as bad fuel as you can imagine.


So for the hypersonic flight, for example, when you fly, let's say from New York to Singapore on the bigger plane on the future bigger plane for every

passenger you need to spend approximately half a ton of hydrogen. Yes, now the hydrogen is pretty expensive, it's just $10,000 per ton.

But with the increasing the scales of the production of the hydrogen, the anticipated long term cost of hydrogen like -- , and any projection of

Vikings will be down to 2000 or even less. So it means that actually the fuel components of your ticket will be less than 1000 euros, which is a

very comparable with a normal long range flight.

And so we hope that this future hypersonic aviation will not be only faster, much faster -- has actually any even in-flight entertainment, he

just seemed to enjoy it will be also economically viable. So it will be comparable by the price was commercial or maybe even cheaper because it

means less crew, less serving.

It means that the plane can be utilized much more frequently so your depreciations much faster. So we don't think it should be more expensive

than conventional flights.

CHATTERLEY: Wow, very quickly, hypersonic flight has to be interesting to nation states, the United States to China to the EU, for example, I saw a

competitor that you have Hermeus that backed by the U.S. Air Force in part, I know you've raised 50 million euros, don't governments need to be more

involved in supporting innovation and research in this. What conversations are you having on that?

KOKORICH: Absolutely.


KOKORICH: Absolutely, this is one of the interests in domains which supported by many governments and you're absolutely right talked about

Hermeus, which actually supported also by Sam Altman, the Founder of Open AI.


KOKORICH: -- doing when I wasn't in the white community, there was my previous company. But China have very active hypersonic plane program and -

- , let's say semi private government companies doing some stuff. We are entirely private company. But we have several support and -- from European

Union from Spanish government to develop hydrogen technologies, hydrogen propulsion.

And also we're part of the big study funded by European Union equity group together as he has zero control with Airbus, to develop the new flight

rules and regulations for supersonic, hypersonic for suborbital flights. So it means the government's now not only financially supporting on the

players like Hermeus, like us.

But also they think in how this slide should look like? What should be the flight protocols, how they should integrate the normal traffic? And it's

not just it's actually a big project for couple of years. There are a couple dozen submittals for fewer and leading player in this project. The

regulator's like yes your control, and we are responsible for hypersonic particle we study.

CHATTERLEY: So exciting, speed and sustainability if we when we get their fingers crossed. Mikhail, great to chat to you, we'll speak soon, the

Founder and CEO of Destinus. Thank you, sir. We'll, back after this.

KOKORICH: Thank you.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", in a busy week already on the show. Wall Street back to work after the July 4 holiday break. And U.S.

Treasury Secretary Yellen -- to China for talks lots at stake. And your Chinese export ban means computer chips may be harder to make.

And then this Meta said to give Twitter a social media shake that could certainly keep Elon Musk awake. Its thread service set to be released

tomorrow. The question is will users partake? Lots to keep Wall Street traders busy this Wednesday make no mistake. Oh my goodness, I'm still


Let's just start to the trading day the first full day of trade actually on Wall Street this week. Cautious trade ahead of the release of the Federal

Reserve minutes later today and an important jobs data number on Friday as well. And finally, on "First Move", talk about too close for comfort.

Just take a look at this. No. This is not a scene from the movie Jaws. It's a video taken in Florida earlier this week. When a shark was seen swimming

very close to bathers. Now people were quickly ordered out of the water.

No one was injured. People online saying sharks are often seen in this area. Official saying it's no cause for alarm, easy for them to say. And

that's it for the show. "Connect the World" is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.