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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Ukrainian Troops Reflect on Battle for Robotyne; Catalyst Fund Backs Climate-Tech Startups in Africa; WSJ: China Bans Government Officials from using iPhones; Vilda: Firing as Coach was Unfair and Unexpected; Suleyman: Real-Time Adaptability will Change Landscape; Hurricane Idalia Brought Flamingos to Eastern U.S. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired September 06, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to "First Move" great to have you with us this Wednesday and a busy show as always coming
up including surprise -- the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken making an unannounced visit to Kyiv.
An important show of American support for Ukraine ahead of the G20 meetings this weekend, as the counter offensive in Ukraine extends to a fourth
month. A live report from Kyiv, just ahead plus temperature trepidation.
A new UN report says the Northern Hemisphere is suffering its hottest summer on record. I think something most of us suspected already. Ocean
temperatures at record levels too. And all this as torrential rain triggers serious flooding in Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria at least seven people
losing their lives as a result.
And climate calamities mounting but also climate commitments, the first ever African Climate Summit wrapping up in Nairobi, we'll explore the
roadmap for the continent ahead of COP28 this fall. President Ruto of Kenya describing climate change is a challenge but also an opportunity.
And some in the venture capital community certainly agree. We'll hear from the Managing Partner of Catalyst Fund, which is backing hot green projects
in Africa and beyond. In the meantime, the action on global markets well, not so hot U.S. stocks look set to fall for a second straight session amid
fears that rising oil prices might reverse the recent encouraging news on inflation.
And a fresh lag of anticipated corporate borrowing also pushing up U.S. bond yields too, the results I think to Asian stocks mixed but strength in
the Chinese property sector the best performing stock on the HANG SENG tough to guess but I'll tell you it's bankrupt developer Evergrande.
It's up 82 percent on the session still down significantly on the year just for context, but perhaps a reflection I think of a less dire financial
outlook for Country Garden another key Chinese property firms some might call that a dead cat bounce however, we shall move on. Lots to get to as
always, and we do begin in Ukraine.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken on the ground in Kyiv at this hour, on a surprise visit, America's top diplomat set to meet with Ukrainian
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy while he's there. No reprieve for Ukrainians however, as the Russian attacks continue, at least 16 people have lost
their lives in a missile attack on a market in Donetsk. Melissa Bell joins us now from Kyiv. Melissa I know the details on this just coming in what
more do we know?
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we understand is that this is an attack we're just beginning to get details of it Julia. Kostiantynivka is a
town just to the west of Bakhmut. And it is within striking distance.
Of course, it is also where the military personnel who have been fighting this counter offensive along the eastern front and a lot of the fighting
has been happening around Bakhmut these last few days with Ukraine claiming to have made gains but certainly a lot of intense fighting these last few
This is a small town within striking distance of that. What we're hearing are those 16 civilians including one child has been killed as a result of
that shelling. President Zelenskyy has just been speaking to that, calling it the utter inhumanity with which Russia is prosecuting this war, pointing
out that this is will have been an ordinary marketplace of pharmacy.
People going about their daily lives, people in the words of President Zelenskyy, who've done nothing wrong and I think it's an important reminder
Julia of the heavy price that so many civilians continue to pay, not just in those towns that are within striking range of Russian artillery. And
they are, of course, substantial when you consider the length of this front line, but all around the country.
In fact it was here in Kyiv that there were just ahead of President -- of Secretary Blinken's visit this morning. More overnight missile strikes,
ballistic cruise missiles that although intercepted by air defenses Julia did cause damage and important reminder, even as the American Secretary of
State comes here of exactly what it is he's come to talk about Julia.
CHATTERLEY: A key illustration of what they're suffering and why they need more support. Melissa Bell, we'll let you go there. Thank you so much for
that. Now, today's discussions will certainly revolve around the critical Ukrainian counter offensive too and a recent success for Ukraine
recapturing the village of Robotyne in the Zaporizhzhia region.
It took weeks of bitter fighting, but it allowed Ukrainian troops to rescue many civilians. And ahead of today's meeting, Melissa Bell got to meet the
men of the 47th Brigade who fought so hard for that victory and at great personal cost.
BELL (voice-over): The flag now flies over what left of Robotyne. Ukrainian Leaders say it's the first victory of three month counter offensive, a
source of great pride for the men of the 47th mechanized brigade.
BELL (voice-over): The soldiers hadn't expected to find them but rushed the handful of men and elderly women into their Bradley vehicle before speeding
away as quickly as they could. Back in the safety of a nearby wood the civilians are given much needed water and phones. But for the 47th Brigade
Robotyne was just the start and some of its heroes have since fallen.
BELL: I'd like to ask about your colleagues the day you went into Robotyne and you took the civilians out there was another team but they were killed.
BELL (voice-over): Still there carry on southwards along a stretch of road they've nicknamed the road to hell. Melissa Bell, CNN, Zaporizhzhia region.
CHATTERLEY: Meanwhile, extreme weather battering parts of the European Continent. In Greece torrential rains and flooding have swept the country
over the past few days. At least two people lost their lives. In Bulgaria heavy rain caused severe floods along the country's southern coastline,
damaging both roads and bridges.
And in Turkey floods caused by torrential rain on Tuesday have claimed a further two lives authority say four others are still missing all of this
coming after what's officially been declared the hottest summer on record at least that's the verdict from the EU's Copernicus Climate Change
And I think as I mentioned earlier, something most of us already suspected. The UN Chief Antonio Guterres is calling on world leaders to act
immediately as the climate is "Imploding faster than we can cope". Our Chief Climate Correspondent Bill Weir joins us now.
Bill always good to have you on; he had a better quote the dog days of summer and not just barking they are biting. Now we've had hot summers
before the key is that we've not just broken records by a mere tiny margin. It's the size of the margin beats here I think that's more important.
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: It is startling Julia to see that. Normally scientists are used to seeing maybe one hundreds of a
percentage point of Celsius degree raise. This new record is over three tenths of a degree Celsius shattering the previous records the bar chart,
it looks like a hockey stick.
And this is the least surprising new record. Of course, if anybody who has experienced this summer, June was the hottest ever July now the hottest
month ever recorded. And now August the hottest August put them together.
Sadly, the alternative headline to this Julia is this is also maybe the coolest summer of the rest of our lives. El Nino is just beginning next
year predicted to be much warmer, and then the trend going forward. The last couple of months have been 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre industrial
levels. That of course is the target that we're trying to hold after the Paris Climate Accords.
The worry is that will be the new norm. It's just a monthly spike right now. But here we are. And you can see the results grades going from those
fires to floods in a blink. It's the extremes that we're seeing now. The water cycle just seems to be drunk, frankly.
CHATTERLEY: I mean this is the point I think as well. It's just a preview of what the world would look like if we continue to allow it to heat and we
get beyond that one and a half degrees Celsius that we always come back to its more summers more extreme winters more extreme weather.
But just going back over your experience of reporting on these because a lot of the pushback I hear is people saying, look, we've had hot summers
before. We've seen this before. This is no real difference.
We've been here before, just in your reporting experience is this sort of worst thing you've ever seen it?
WEIR: Oh, yes. Yes, it's worse than anybody's ever seen it. We tend to be very focused on all-weather as local and there's always a bluebird day that
follows a brutal heat wave or a blizzard. And you just think it's going to even out the way we grew up with that climate is gone now.
And you -- when it is 110 degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks in a row in Phoenix, you know, 40 degrees Celsius, these heat domes now like giant
pizza oven sitting over continents, what is happening under the water under the ocean waves that we can't see off the charts, sea surface or record
That is stressing marine life and marine economies in so many ways that we've yet to fully realize. It is blinking -- the dashboard is blinking
bright red everywhere you look. And there's still time to decide the fate of how bad it gets, but no indication from major oil producers that they
want to change business model anytime soon.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, but I think your point such a valid one. Don't look at the weather just around you look globally, at the changes that we're seeing.
And I think it's pretty clear. Bill Wire always a pleasure. Thank you.
WEIR: You bet.
CHATTERLEY: Now all of this comes as the Africa Climate Summit ends in Nairobi, African Leaders warned countries on the continent face
"Disproportionate burdens and risks from climate change, and called for urgent action to reduce emissions in a joint declaration".
Wednesday leaders said Africa is not historically responsible for global warming, but bears the brunt of its effect impacting lives, livelihoods and
economies. Larry Madowo is there and joins us now. Larry, we've been asking the question all week, I think, show me the money. Where's the money?
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So the money did not come today beyond the pledges and the commitments. But the African leaders are convinced that the
money has to come especially for renewable energy, as the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres said yesterday, Africa can be a renewable energy
We didn't see any more commitments today. But their declaration, really putting strong impetus on this African decision to make sure that Africa
gets -- it's fair share of the financing for adaptation, because that's an important priority right now.
As Africa suffers the brunt of the climate crisis they need that money comes in quickly to help people just survive. So we didn't see that. But I
think what has been the huge take away from this, Julia is going to be the convening power that the African Union and the Kenyan government has been
able to do.
They got Ursula Von Der Leyen from the European Union Commission here, the UN Secretary General John Kerry, with the UN -- the U.S. Climate Envoy, all
of them in the same room. And I think this is important.
I was speaking to one young African who says, it's useful that Africans all came together ahead of COP28 to agree on their platform going into it.
However, there's some pessimism as well, another young Ugandan who's just told me that this feels like the movie "Don't look up" with Leonardo
DiCaprio. There is a lot of talk and there's a lot of denial. But the time for action is not is right now. Not tomorrow, right now. And he says he
feels like he's watching don't look up, but in real life.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's about not just the momentum, it is about the money and the follow through on this. I have to say there Larry with our young
people, I don't worry because they'll continue to push for action in all ways and forms. Larry Madowo great to have you with us thank you!
Now later on "First Move", the title is the coming wave. But is it really more of a technological tsunami? And is there a way to successfully ride
it? Author, Entrepreneur and Co-Founder of Deep Mind Mustafa Suleyman joins us to discuss his book and our future. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". Before the break we were discussing the need for greater funding for climate adaption and
mitigation. It was microchip show me the money. Well, our next guest is focused on doing just that. Catalyst Fund is a startup accelerator that's
funding innovative companies across Africa, Latin America and Asia.
It's looking to raise $40 million from investors to fund the climate focused startups across Africa. And it's already put money into 10 firms
from Egypt in Kenya to Senegal and Nigeria. The portfolio includes Santi- green, which is working to transform desert into cultivable land in Morocco, and farm to feed using digital tech to reduce food waste in Kenya.
And joining us now is Maelis Carraro. She is the Managing Partner of Catalyst Fund, which is part of BFA Global Group, Maelis fantastic to have
you on the show, just start by explaining Catalyst Fund and how you look for good investments.
MAELIS CARRARO, MANAGING PARTNER, CATALYST FUND: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Catalyst Fund is a precede venture fund and accelerator that
backs early stage tech startups building and climate resilient future in Africa.
So we look for companies really making an impact on climate adaptation benefits on the continent, across a range of sectors, because we truly
believe that every sector of the economy will have to adapt to climate change impacts.
So for example, we look for companies in the insurance space in the agriculture space, but also in access to water or clean energy or waste
management, essential solutions that we help build the resilience of climate vulnerable communities.
CHATTERLEY: OK, so give me an example. Because I mentioned farm to feed, what was it about this startup that made you think you know, what, they're
doing the right things, they're a good investment. We're going to get a return on our money, because clearly, this is part of the decisions that
you have to make at this stage, even as an early stage seed or venture capitalist fund, talk me through that.
CARRARO: Absolutely. "Farm to Feed" is a Kenyan company who was trying to dramatically reduce food waste and food loss by connecting producers,
farmers to off takers, in this case, for example, restaurants, or even airlines, and help them to sell the odd looking produce.
So basically, not your Grade A produces, but the Grade B and C, they would otherwise not be sold. And what this does is contributing to increasing the
income of the farmers, but also to dramatically reduce food waste, which as you knows, as an impact also on CO2 reduction.
So for us, we saw this as a digital model that had both a big impact on farmer's income, but it could also be scaled not just in Kenya, but across
the continent. And that's what's going to drive our returns.
CHATTERLEY: Yes and how much money on average, do you give startups like this? I'm sure it differs depending on where they're operating or what
they're doing. But just on average, how much money are we talking about?
CARRARO: Actually, we are a pre seed stage fund. So we are usually the first backers the first check in the company. So we invest $200,000 at pre
seed very beginning of the startup journeys. And within that $100,000 is cash and $100,000 is venture building support, which means that our team in
the fund has the expertise across all the functions that an early stage startup needs.
And we can come in and help with marketing with growth with fundraising with sales with product data technology issues which really helps companies
get to the next level of scale and reach and be able to attract further financing.
And after that first check, we're also able to provide follow on funding. Usually it's around $500,000 at seed stage and over a million dollars that
Series A. So we really try to stay with our founders all the way to that initial growth. And at that point, other investors hopefully, seven,
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and what does it cost the company themselves? Because the comparison that I'm making here, and again, I have this conversation a lot,
that just getting access to finance in certain parts of this world is just prohibitively expensive. And it's part of the challenge for outside and
international investors coming in and working out.
Sort of what they're willing to invest in the risks that they're taking, how does it compare? And again, how do you weigh up those risks price those
CARRARO: It's a great question. Our model that proceeds is standardized. So we take 5 percent of the companies, which is lower on average than other
early stage VC funds or accelerators. Because we didn't want to create a model that put the founders first it was founders friendly.
And I will say, though, that it is still very difficult for early stage startups to access both equity and debt, in particular, that typically
comes at a higher cost. And this is something that we try to change and disrupt with our fund trying to place $200,000 across 40 companies over the
next five years.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's great. How do you and how do we scale this? You're just one fund, and it's brilliant, but it's a drop in the ocean in terms of
the work that needs to be done to not only support these businesses, but also tackle some of the huge challenges that the continent has?
Are you working with governments? And just from what you've already seen? How could you better perhaps, or those governments work with you to help
CARRARO: Absolutely, we, as a private sector fund don't work directly with individual governments. But we certainly take part in the conversation. So
for example, we were just now at the Africa Climate Summit here in Kenya, I mean in Nairobi right now and really made a strong call for more capital
from both the public sector and the private sector to come in to support climate innovators on the continent.
That can really drive green growth and adaptation solutions for climate impacts. And I think the government in particular has a key role to enable
private sector funding to come in, do you risk that funding potentially with structures that blends different kinds of capital.
And then really scale what is working in critical sectors here, for example, agriculture, but also clean energy, which is going to be a very
important resource to enable low carbon growth in the future.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, what my ears pricked up there with the idea perhaps of some form of risk sharing, so that you can come in, but there's also some
offset there. And hopefully, that allows them sort of greater leverage of the money that's available. How close to the $40 million, are you?
CARRARO: We have just announced our first close at slightly above 20 percent of the fund raise.
CARRARO: But we're really hoping that with this announcement, we're going to generate momentum, and partner with other investors that really share a
vision of a world where every individual has the tools they need to thrive against the risk of climate change.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, that's why I asked question. That's when you ask a question you know the answer too, because if they're already investors
watching, you're the lady to call. Maelis, great to chat to you, thank you so much, and then we'll certainly keep in touch.
CARRARO: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: Maelis Carraro there, Managing Partner of Catalyst Fund. More "First Move", after this stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", China is banning the use of iPhones for central government officials. That's according to a report at
least in the Wall Street Journal. Marc Stewart joins us now from Beijing. Marc I was just looking at Apples and numbers, revenues from China a fifth
of their total. So this will send off a few alarm bells. If it's true, what more do we know about this report?
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed Julia, in fact, as you know, Tim Cook was just here in Beijing in March of this year, I believe in a very
high profile visit. So this is certainly a big brand that is going to get a lot of attention. Certainly this is headline grabbing.
But if you look at the relationship between the United States and China, it's maybe not necessarily surprising. China very much operates under this
philosophy. If you do something to harm us or to penalize us, we'll do something to hurt you back. And this may fall in this narrative as we have
seen restrictions back and forth over the last few months in this very complicated relationship.
Now we have reached out to China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs to get their take on this, at this point, no response. But according to a source who
talked to CNN and unnamed source, because of the sensitivity of all of this. This is something that the government has quietly been doing,
suggesting that Apple iPhone products not be used for government business.
And now we have this more formal policy. But again, this is something that we have seen back and forth. In fact, several months ago, Chinese Ministers
banned Tesla. Some Chinese Ministers banned Tesla products, cars on the premises of different locations over security concerns.
We recently saw the United States Government about a year ago placing restrictions on Chinese devices, phone, cellular phone type devices, from
Huawei, and by ZTE. So this very much falls into the narrative, how Apple will respond with this will do to their market share. And what this will
mean for Chinese consumers.
This is a very competitive mobile phone market. Julia, we're just going to have to see but I think this is fair to say it's very much in this back and
forth relationship between the United States and China, especially when it comes to penalties and restrictions.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I couldn't agree more than restricting them, further government figures is very different I think from consumers watch this
space. Marc Stewart, thank you. Now just into CNN Spanish football player Jenni Hermoso is filed a legal complaint over the unsolicited kiss by the
President of Spain's Football Federation.
It's been two and a half weeks since Spain won the woman's World Cup and Luis Rubiales kissed Hermoso after their victory. Amanda Davies joins us
now I'm under I think a lot of people wondering why this hadn't happened sooner. What more do we know about this complaint?
AMANDA DAVIES, CNN WORLD SPORT: Yes, Julia, we know that last week that Spanish prosecutor had said they were opening an investigation and said
that they were going to speak to Jenni Hermoso over the course of the next 15 days about the kiss, which President Luis Rubiales has always said, was
Jenni Hermoso, the Spanish player has always said was not. And what has just emerged in the last few minutes is a statement from Spain's
prosecutor's office, saying that Jenni Hermoso has submitted a complaint for the events that you all know. The statement says the national courts
prosecutor's office will file a complaint as soon as possible, which will be sent to you as a press release.
The statement took place at the state attorney general's office to protect the privacy of the victim. We haven't heard anything more from Jenni
Hermoso herself. She's been relatively quiet on social media and what happens next we wait and see. But of course, this is the legal avenue that
is now being pursued for those events that played out on that Sunday evening on August the 20th in Sydney.
It will be very interesting to see what if any ramifications that we'll have from the footballing perspective, of course, because Luis Rubiales has
been suspended, as you well know, as we've been talking about by world football governing body FIFA, but as yet he hasn't resigned officially from
his post as President of the Spanish Football Federation.
And he has been unable to be removed by the Spanish sporting governing bodies up to this point. So this is quite a significant step. It feels but
there's still quite a long way to go to find out what happens next.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Now it's not just about outrage. It's now a formal legal complaint in this case, Amanda, someone though, that has lost their job is
the women's national team coach was sort of embattled himself and criticized in the run up to the World Cup. He's now lost his job, which he
says is unfair.
DAVIES: Yes, I mean, I don't think that's particularly surprising, is it when we see the defiance from the President Luis Rubiales that we've seen
over the last couple of weeks and Jorge Vilda that women's national team coach has been, for a long time one of his closest allies. He was there
applauding in the front row, wasn't he when Rubiales gave that defiant speech to the General Assembly.
As you rightly said his tenure particularly over the last few years as manager of the Spanish National Women's team has been filled with
complaints and stories that have played out to a greater or lesser extent publicly of unrest in the dressing room in the camp, that letter that was
written by the 15 players complaining about their treatment of the structures the lack of support that they were receiving.
So despite Jorge Vilda, guiding his team to a first ever Women's World Cup success, his tenure has now come to an end. And really, that was expected
given the resignation of the entirety of his coaching staff last week, the letter from 81 players on the men's and the women's side refusing to play
for their national federation with the current structures that at the helm.
It's very interesting, though, in terms of Jorge Vilda's replacement, Montse Tome, she's being heralded as a first female coach of this women's
side. But, is she entirely a new era being ushered in? Well, the only person she has ever worked under as a coach is Jorge Vilda.
The only place she has ever been an assistant coach is at the Spanish Football Federation. So whilst the talk is a new era being ushered in,
there is perhaps some suspicion that perhaps not as new a brush as people have been hoping for.
CHATTERLEY: But the spotlight is certainly going to be on her. Amanda Davies, thank you so much for that.
CHATTERLEY: Coming up here on "First Move", the technological revolution and the new world it will create and we're not just talking about
artificial intelligence that should be bigger than that, its next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move", and you're looking at live pictures of the New York City skyline a wilting, weltering, sweltering
Wednesday for all of us here in the -- should I say baked apple with temperatures set to soar past 33 degrees Celsius today I can tell you it
And the major U.S. averages also wilting a little early trade too, a second day of weakness. As you can see there on Wall Street fresh turbulence for
travel stocks too after all prices hit nine month highs. In Tuesday's session, Southwest Airlines in fact is warning today that rising fuel costs
will have an impact on its bottom line.
Though oil pulling back a little in today's session, Brent crude is still trading near $90 a barrel as you can see there. Now we're moving on to the
world of tomorrow, a place where artificial intelligences will be our companions and help us confidence and colleagues.
They'll organize our lives and listen to our burning desires and our darkest fears, drones and robots will be ubiquitous. The human genome will
be an elastic thing, and so necessarily will be the very idea of the human itself. Many will disappear almost entirely into virtual worlds. Imagine
These are just some of the quotes from the Coming Wave, a book that details the technological revolution that is and will reshape our world in
unimaginable ways. Is it a wave or is it a tsunami? Well, we need to ask its author Mustafa Suleyman is the Co-founder of DeepMind.
The AI firm that made international headlines for creating AlphaGo, he was also the VP of AI Products and Policy at Google. And he's now the CEO of an
AI startup called Inflection. And of course, he's also an author and Mustafa joins us now, great to have you on the show. I read the book.
I have to say I loved it. We were just discussing in the break I didn't love the end. It's not just about AI. It's about mutually reinforcing
technologies that are all coming at the same time and strengthening together robotics AI Synthetic Biology.
And as you say in the book it's going to change the way we think about both life and intelligence in unimaginable ways.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, AUTHOR OF "THE COMING WAVE": I mean these are incredible new technologies. In some sense, they are like what we have seen in the
past, like all technologies have actually made us massively more productive, wealthy and healthy as a species.
I mean, can you imagine what it would have been like trying to explain air travel to somebody 200 years ago. It was just completely out of bounds of
our imagination. And now, it's a run of the mill everyday critical part of our lives. And that's how technology happens.
At first, it seems absurd and crazy and really difficult to wrap our heads around. And then it becomes utterly essential and integral to everything
that we do and makes us so much better. And the challenge that we have, of course, is just making sure that those new technologies are safe, they
remain in our control.
And they always deliver massively more benefits than the potential harms. And that's the quest that we're on. That's why I wrote the book, "The
CHATTERLEY: You talk about containment, that this idea that actually containment itself is a moving target, and some of what you said there
makes that, I think, perfectly obvious, because actually, we're not really sure where we're headed, or at what speed we just know, we seem to be
The quote from the book is containment is not a resting place. It's a narrow and never ending path. We sort of had to get to grips with that at a
time where we're quite binary about how we regulate things and how we talk about things.
For me, that was one of the most mind blowing things is, the recognition that even after reading the book, I'm not sure we're in control of this.
I'm not sure we understand it. I'm not sure we're ready for it. In fact, no, we're not.
SULEYMAN: There's no question that the pace of change is accelerating. So in the past, Innovation and Science took place in the world of atoms, you
needed to physically move things around to build dams and bridges and nuclear power plants. And that friction introduced the kind of slowness
that gave us time to wrap our heads around the potential consequences of these new technologies.
Today, these technologies of life engineering new life, synthetic biology, and artificial intelligence, exist mostly in the kind of computational
space. And that means that they can evolve way more quickly than they ever have in the physical real world. And so the pace of change is definitely
moving incredibly fast.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and I'll put it in really basic English, a lot of the powers that we're going to have, we're going to be accessible by a phone,
the proliferation of all these technologies is coming to us, as individuals, it's not in nation states, or big tech hands really to control
this, and to own it, at least where we are today.
There was a quote in it that I love, though, and you said it, I think best of everything I've read about this, technology is ultimately political
because technology is a form of power. And perhaps the single overriding characteristic of the coming wave is that it will democratize access to
And actually, in recent comments that you've made, for me, the most immediate is elections and election interference and deep fakes, you've
come openly out and said, Ban AI, in elections in the United States in 2024. My question to you is how?
SULEYMAN: Well look, the reality is that everybody is ultimately going to get access to these tools. So even though at the moment they're being
developed by the biggest tech companies and startups, the open source movement is just a year or maybe 18 months behind the absolute cutting
And on the face of it, that's an incredible story, it's a great thing, it means everybody gets access to tools that help us be much more creative and
innovative and build new value for everybody. On the flip side of that, it also does mean that everybody has now the power to generate synthetic
media, video, audios, images.
That will be completely indistinguishable from anything that is generated by a human. So not only will it be super accurate, it can be automated and
personalized to whoever it's being communicated to. And that adaptability that real time responsiveness to a real human is going to change the
landscape in a very, very fundamental way.
And so containment is really about making sure that the technologies we invent, always remain within our democratic governments control and
overseen by them. That's the big challenge we have.
CHATTERLEY: I'll go through them because there are 10 points that you say on the path to containment and I've got questions on all of them, but I
have to restrict myself. One of them is the makers of this responsible developers build appropriate values into technology from the start.
Do you think we've sort of blown that up already did open AI did Microsoft blow up that premise already and unleashing ChatGPT like tools on an
unsuspecting it but excitable public admittedly?
SULEYMAN: No, I think it's great to give tools to everybody to allow them to experiment and to play because the sooner everybody gets an intuition
for the strengths and weaknesses of these new AIs.
The sooner the fear will start to subside and we'll get comfortable with the potential upsides but we'll also be critical of the downsides. And so
we need to give people access to the tools to be able to break them and identify their weaknesses. And if you look at the large language models
that are out today, I mean, my own company inflection, for example, makes pi, a personal intelligence.
It's incredibly safe. It's very, very boundaries. It's really careful not to be offensive, or biased, or in any way produce toxicity, or encourage
you, you know, to learn how to develop weapons, for example, which is technically possible in some of the LLMs. But all of the companies are
quickly getting on top of these risks.
Just like back in the day, when aircraft, you know, started to become a popular mode of transport. All of the aircraft companies wanted to make
sure flight was one of the safest possible ways of getting around and now it is. It's kind of amazing to think that we could be 40,000 feet in the
And it's one of the safest ways to get around. And I do think that's the trajectory, we'll be on with these AIs, will make them much more
controllable and accountable.
CHATTERLEY: I think one of the other things that you suggested, which I actually really like, if indeed, the how part works is choke points. Find
out ways that we can do what you said and introduce friction and slow this down. And one of the ways was in video, which effectively controls the
market for AI type chips.
And you're saying actually restrict sales to certain entities Nation States, China, for example, if they don't play by the rules, do you think
that's practical? Have you discussed that, because you've met the U.S. government?
SULEYMAN: Yes, I mean, I spent some time with President Biden, a few months ago now at the White House. And you know the export controls on China
really well prevent China from getting access to the next generation of new models, the very largest models that say, GPT 5, for example.
And you certainly could use those same methods to impose regulatory restrictions on how these suites of models are going to be used even
domestically and among our allies. I don't think it's time for us to do that. I think we're still many years away from that kind of, you know,
threat arising, that kind of risk requiring, that kind of intervention, which would be a really significant intervention.
But I do think if you look out in the longer term, say, on a 5 to 10 year period, then you could start to imagine that this would be a reasonable
thing to do. And we've certainly done this with supply chains in other areas, like, for example, getting access to biological and chemical weapons
components, or getting access to be able to develop and handle nuclear materials.
These all require licensing regimes, you have to be trained and mandated, the government tracks. Who has what, where and how they operate? And I can
imagine the same kind of regime happening in a decade or so with these large language models.
CHATTERLEY: You've also said, building alliances is, key and you and I've talked about this in the past.
CHATTERLEY: One of the ways that you said actually perhaps we can do that, and you've touched upon it there is sort of in synthetic biology,
information sharing. I just, that also struck me in the book because I was thinking post pandemic, with the sort of lack of data sharing the
speculation, the fear.
I think of how that happened, and where it happened and the implications I'm not sure an alliance were capable of alliances at this stage in that
sphere, never mind anywhere else. What gives you the optimism and the confidence that it can be achieved?
SULEYMAN: Look, I mean, we now have the tools to be able to engineer new pandemic grade viruses and compounds that huge scale. It's going to become
much cheaper and easier to not just read DNA, but synthesize that DNA and create new compounds that could be more lethal and more transmissible than
anything that we've seen in COVID.
Now that creates a mutually assured destruction incentive, which should drive our cooperation with China, more than anything at the moment, we need
to be figuring out ways to de risk this threat of Cold War conflict with China, all of the rhetoric is amplifying that tension. And this is an
opportunity where we can co-ordinate and co-operate.
CHATTERLEY: Mustafa, what you're saying is in 5 to 10 years, an individual could create one of those pathogens that are far worse than a COVID
situation. And that's arguably what we're dealing with here without I think being too alarmist.
SULEYMAN: I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But that is honestly the trajectory that we're on with synthetic biology.
SULEYMAN: In 5 to 10 years' time, somebody in there you know, garage lab at home, with very little training in biology, will be able to engineer and,
you know, produce new kinds of compounds that are potentially very lethal. And that is a threat to all of us everywhere, which is, on the face of it a
good opportunity for us to try to coordinate and compromise with people that we may otherwise see as potential adversaries.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. So it's actually that where we start because the book talks about all things which I don't have time to talk about. But again, it
is actually that specific subject where we all need to come together and go we've had a taste of how bad this can be.
We need to coordinate and managing this on a global basis, as important as AI and robotics in some of the other aspects are.
SULEYMAN: That's exactly right.
SULEYMAN: I mean the book is actually a hopeful and positive outline of a bunch of strategies for how we can contain technologies and make sure that
they always serve us collectively. And I think that we have to be much more optimistic and positive about the potential for states, nation states to
work with one another to compromise, to negotiate to reach agreement.
I mean, this is what we need more than ever, over the coming decades as these new technologies really start to shape our lives and have massively
CHATTERLEY: Is Armageddon? As some of the industry experts suggested, the alternative, Mustafa, if we don't, to your point about aligning incentives.
SULEYMAN: I think on the AI side, there's been a little bit of a tendency to perhaps not exaggerate, but certainly paint the worst possible darkest
scenario, the lower probability scenarios. And in fact, there's a lot more practical near term risks that we need to focus on.
SULEYMAN: I mentioned, synthetic media generation, for example. But there are also risks on the cyber hacking front, automating the process by which
these models can probe networks and find weaknesses in you know, security infrastructure. That's a new threat vector that opens up. But it's also a
very practical thing which we can collectively focus on working on.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, actually, that is another takeaway from the book for me, you sort of focused is on the more immediate problems that we have to
tackle and not get sort of lost in the big picture alarmism and understand that there are severe vulnerabilities today that we can tackle and actually
on an individual basis. It could keep me going for an hour, but I've run out of time. It's a great book.
SULEYMAN: Great chatting with you.
CHATTERLEY: With the whole thing yesterday. -- say something.
SULEYMAN: Thank you so much Julia, that's very kind. I really appreciate it.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you for joining us. And we'll talk again soon.
SULEYMAN: See you soon.
CHATTERLEY: Mustafa Suleyman there, the CEO of Inflection and the author of "The Coming Wave", more "First Move", after this.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move". Now throughout the show today we've been discussing the impact of climate change. Well, here's another
unexpected event. Hurricane Idalia bought more than just rain and wind to southeastern United States. Flamingos are now turning up in a number of
states as a result of the storm.
One expert believes the birds may have been flying between Cuba and the Yucatan when they were diverted by Idalia and there they are.
Now music news and the rumors are true the Rolling Stones have just announced their first new studio album in 18 years titled Hackney Diamonds.
It includes songs the band recorded with drummer Charlie Watts before his death in 2021. Even Paul McCartney has a cameo playing bass on one track.
And the new album will be released on October 20. And finally, call it the instant meal that if gamers partake, it will most definitely try to keep
them awake. The new product from the company behind the popular cup noodles brand is called gaming cup noodles, and it's infused with caffeine.
Yes, to keep players alert. The Nissin Company says that is the first game of friendly quote product in its history. Now the caffeinated noodles
apparently come in two flavors and they have a thicker sauce than traditional cup noodles, which means that twitchy gamers don't have to
worry about throwing it all over themselves.
And to that I say game on, I absolutely do not. Game off, quite frankly, good catch. Where's that liquor lottery when you need one. That's the
caffeine I need. That's it for the show. If you missed any of our interviews today, there'll be on my X and Instagram pages you can search
for @jchatterleycnn. "Connect the World" is up next, it was all about the throw, I'll see you tomorrow.