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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Biden and Trump Presidential Debate; Biden Vows to Fight On; Biden Campaigns in North Carolina; Trump Claims Victory on Presidential Debate; VP Harris Defending Biden; Biden's Debate Set Off Alarms for Democrats; Trump Back on Campaign Trail; Biden Camp Reject Calls for Biden to Drop Out; International Reaction from the Biden-Trump Presidential Debate; Supreme Court Limits Obstruction Charges Against January 6 Rioters; Supreme Court's Ruling on Presidential Immunity on Monday; Voters Head to Polls in France; Iranian Voters Head to the Polls to Choose Next President; Winning A.I. Photo Competition with a Real Image; K-Pop at Glastonbury. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired June 28, 2024 - 18:00:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: It's 7:00 a.m. in Seoul, midnight in Paris, and 6:00 p.m. here in New York. I'm Julia Chatterley. And

wherever you are in the world, this is your "First Move."

Once again to "First Move." And here's today's need to know.


JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: When you get knocked down, you get back up.


CHATTERLEY: Biden bouncing back, a fiery President Biden insisting he won't leave the 2024 race despite last night's shaky debate performance.

A big victory, Donald Trump gives his debate verdict while calling his rival incompetent.

Fractured France. Voters head to the polls on what's being called the nation's most consequential election in decades.

And robot versus reality. We speak to the artist who won an artificial intelligence photo competition with this real image. That conversation and

plenty more coming up.

But first a tale of two presidents with a dramatic change in less than 24 hours. President Joe Biden confident at a rally in North Carolina Friday

after that shaky performance at Thursday's night debate. His hoarse voice and halting speech now stronger.


JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Folks, I give you my words of Biden, I would not be running again if I didn't believe with all my heart and soul, I can

do this job, because quite frankly, the stakes are too high. The stakes are too high.


CHATTERLEY: Now, let's be clear, this was back using autocue and not having to answer pointed questions, but it's clearly left some Democrats

confused. His stumbling debate performance set off mean mania, along with some late-night lampooning.


JON STEWART, HOST, THE DAILY SHOW: Both of these men should be using performance enhancing drugs.


CHATTERLEY: Donald Trump's campaign, meanwhile, declaring him the winner of Thursday's debate before it was even over. Trump holding his own rally

in neighboring State of Virginia just hours ago. Arlette Saenz has all the details.


BIDEN: When you get knocked down, you get back up.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Joe Biden in North Carolina looking for a reset after a halting debate

performance against Former President Donald Trump.

BIDEN: I know I'm not a young man, to state the obvious. I don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth.

SAENZ (voice-over): On the campaign trail, the president fiery in his attacks against his rival.

BIDEN: Donald Trump will destroy democracy. I will defend it.

SAENZ (voice-over): A stark contrast from Biden's time at CNN's presidential debate, which has sent Biden's advisers scrambling behind the

scenes to calm Democratic panic after moments like this.

BIDEN: Making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID -- excuse me, with

dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if we finally beat Medicare.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, he's right, he did beat Medicare, he beat it to death.

SAENZ (voice-over): Donald Trump seizing on Biden's struggles.

TRUMP: I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either.

SAENZ (voice-over): Even as he made multiple false claims and hedged yet again when asked directly if he would accept the results of this year's


TRUMP: If it's a fair and legal and good election, absolutely. I would have much rather accepted these, but the fraud.

BIDEN: I doubt whether you'll accept it because you're such a whiner.

SAENZ (voice-over): But those moments overshadowed by Biden's demeanor and delivery. Midway through the debate, aides explaining his hoarse voice was

the result of a cold. Now, the campaign facing questions about what comes next for the 81-year-old president.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Are they going to stick by him or are they going to come with pitchforks?

SAENZ (voice-over): Despite the slip ups, many top Democrats defending Biden.

KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, there was a slow start, but it was a strong finish. This election, and who is the president of the United

States, has to be about substance, and the contrast is clear.

SAENZ (voice-over): Former President Barack Obama writing, bad debate nights happen. Trust me, I know. But this election is still a choice

between someone who has fought for ordinary folks his entire life and someone who only cares about himself.


But in private, some Democrats less assured, questioning whether Biden should remain at the top of the ticket. Biden's team spent part of the day

calling donors and lawmakers trying to ease concern. One adviser telling CNN "We are in a dark place, but we're moving forward." That path forward

is ultimately up to Biden himself, who so far has shown no signs of backing down.

BIDEN: I give you my words of Biden, I would not be running again if I didn't believe, with all my heart and soul, I can do this job.


CHATTERLEY: Now, as you'd expect, debate commentary went viral across social media and left political pollsters calculating the impact on public

opinion. Renowned campaign strategist and pollster Frank Luntz tweeted this in after hours, "Not that I think it'll happen, but the only way Biden can

cancel out last night's debate is to speak in front of live cameras every day for the rest of the campaign and act like his former self."

And I'm very happy to say Frank joins us now. Great to have you with us, Frank. I guess box day one tick in terms of a live performance. What did

you make of the difference between the two presidents in the space of 24 hours and does it make a difference?

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: It does make a difference. I have not seen that footage. I was shocked that Biden did not

show up yesterday. That Biden was powerful and direct and was clear. The Biden that showed up last night, I've never seen before.

And quite frankly, the challenge for Joe Biden right now, 51 million people watched that debate. That's the bad news. The good news for Joe Biden is

that the first debate in 2020 was watched by just over 70 million people. So, clearly some people aren't paying attention.

That said, the split screen, seeing Donald Trump here and Joe Biden here and watching it side by side, the damage that does to Biden's perceptions,

to his reputation is significant. And in the end, you can fix a misstatement, you can even fix a mistake, but you cannot fix age. It's with

you, whether you like it or not.

And from walking on stage, like you see him do right there compared to Donald Trump. And the times when I did not understand a word that he was

saying, that's significant. Every time Biden spoke, he dropped.

And here's what's interesting, last point. Many of the times that Donald Trump spoke, he dropped as well. If Trump says less, Trump actually does

better. If Biden says less, Biden does better. So, it's -- we're in for a really difficult five-month campaign.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, leaders that are better off not speaking. I think that says a great deal. I think one of the differences between the president

that we saw Friday, the president that we saw Thursday was, I guess, back on autocue.

What you can say about the debate that we watched last night, there was no autocue, there were no cue cards, there's no A.I. There's no lying about

what we saw. It was unvarnished. What's also fascinating about what you were doing at that time was that you were holding a focus group of

undecided voters from six key battleground states. They voted both Democrat and Republican over the past 10 years. I just want to give our viewers a

listen to what they said after the debate performance.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does not seem composed. He seems like he is literally about to be on death's door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's lost. He can't complete a thought and he seem weak and fragile.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he was going to be a little more forceful tonight, similar to the State of the Union. I'm just surprised at how he

looks decrepit, frankly.


CHATTERLEY: And, Frank, you asked them how the debate moved their vote preference, and you got the definition of a swing.

LUNTZ: It was -- I was shocked. 12 of the 14 are now voting for Donald Trump. One of the 14 is now voting for Joe Biden, and one of the 14 is

undecided. We never have this. This was significant. But let me make something even more clear to the audience. It's not just that Joe Biden

didn't bring over any undecideds, it's that more than half that group want Joe Biden to step aside and want someone else to run on the Democratic


I want to be clear about this. The hostility towards Donald Trump as an individual, as a person, is significant among the undecideds. They really

do not like him. They don't like his demeanor, they don't like his negativity, they don't like his insults, but they're afraid of Joe Biden.


As one of the people said, which is probably the best quote of the entire evening, Joe Biden wants four more years. I'm not convinced he's going to

make four more months.

They -- and I don't know how to emphasize this enough, the undecideds don't like either candidate. They're not undecided choosing between two great

choices, they're deciding which candidate they dislike less, and frankly, which candidate they think will do less damage to the country. And based on

last night's debate, Trump won overwhelmingly those undecided voters.

CHATTERLEY: Do you expect to see that in the polls, Frank? Because if you go back a few weeks and we look at the expectations of what Trump being

found guilty in a New York court might do, it barely had any impact on the polls. Fast forward to today, do you expect to see some kind of sustainable

adjustment in the polls to reflect what you're saying?

LUNTZ: Well, first, you're absolutely correct. If you average all the surveys, Donald Trump was convicted, was found guilty of 34 felonies and he

dropped only two points in the surveys. And by the way, the numbers that viewers should be looking at are not the national numbers. They don't

matter. We don't elect people by popular votes.

There are only three states that matter, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. And I expect Donald Trump to go up a couple points, that's it in

those states. But that's going to put Trump in the lead in every single swing state.

If Trump wins none of those states, he still gets 268 electoral votes, but that's two votes short of a majority. He has to win one of those three.

Based on the debate performance, I'm expecting Trump to be leading in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, but within the margin of error and

still too close to call.

No one is undecided. Everyone has picked a choice, and those who still haven't made up their minds simply hate both candidates.

CHATTERLEY: OK. So, some of the discussion today has been that perhaps there will now be pressure from the Democratic leadership. Trump, let's say

he's incumbent and he's remaining, there will be pressure from the Democrats to say to President Biden, look, you have to step aside in the

best interest of the party, in the best interest of voters in the country. We can debate the mechanism over how and if that might happen.

If he doesn't step aside, someone said to me today that there will be a wave election, that the Republicans will win the House, the Senate, and the

White House as a result. How do you respond to that, Frank, based on what you're seeing?

LUNTZ: I don't believe that.


LUNTZ: As a pollster, I don't see this dominant push for the Republicans or this really strong movement for the Democrats. We're split on abortion.

We're split on affordability. We're split on immigration. We're split by age, by gender, by ethnicity. America is a viciously divided country,

really angry with each other.

I think the Republicans have a better than 50/50 shot of winning the Senate. I think that the Democrats have a 50/50 shot of taking the House.

And quite frankly, Trump has the advantage right now in the presidency, but it's not significant. It's not 1984. It's not even Barack Obama in 2012 or


We are so divided, so angry, and I'm as concerned about the state of the democracy as I am the state of the election. I'm more concerned of what

happens to us when we emerge from all of this as opposed to election night itself. Because when -- if you have a 272 to 268 election, if you have a

Senate that's evenly 50/50, if you have a House where one side has a one or two seat majority, we're almost there now, then you can't get anything

done, and every single day is a pitched battle.

Well, unfortunately that's where we are as a country. I don't think the debate helped that at all. The loser wasn't just Donald Trump. I think the

loser was the American people. And I'm very pessimistic, frankly. And I know you want to hear me say something positive, but I'm very pessimistic

over the next five months because I see no one and nothing that's trying to do anything positive, anything visionary, and anything focused on the



I know you got to get out, but one last point. The single biggest complaint was not the negativity. The biggest complaint in my focus group is that all

the candidates, both of them, are talking about the past, and none of them are talking about the future.

I'm going to emphasize that if you want to win the presidency, if you want to take over Congress, don't tell people what you've done, tell them

exactly what you plan to do.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, give people hope. And, Frank, I'm an eternal optimist, but I'm also a realist at times. And I, I think what you just said there is

the key, the loser last night was the American people and they deserve better. Frank, a please to talk to you.

LUNTZ: Wait. I want to -- now, hold on. Don't cut me off.

CHATTERLEY: Now, you're going --

LUNTZ: I want to give CNN credits. I know this. Our focus group loved the moderators. They loved the process. They thought CNN did an outstanding

job. You all, congratulations. You put together an excellent debate.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you, sir. You're welcome back. Pollster and campaign strategist there, Frank Luntz. Sir, we'll speak to you again. Great to get

your wisdom.

Now, as we mentioned, Former President Donald Trump was also back on the campaign trial Friday, arguing that America's survival is at stake.


TRUMP: The question every voter should be asking themselves today is not whether Joe Biden can survive a 90-minute debate performance, but whether

America can survive four more years of crooked Joe Biden in the White House.

In fact, I don't know if we can really survive five more months. This is the most dangerous time in the history of our country, in my opinion.


CHATTERLEY: Trump's team taking a victory lap after the CNN Debate, even though Trump spent much of the evening repeating falsehoods, more than 30

by CNN's count. Kristen Holmes joins us now from Virginia.

Kristen, I think nothing unexpected about the tone that the former president took today.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- he polled the crowd on who watch, but there was one slight surprise. What we had heard from his

senior advisers were relentless personal attacks on President Joe Biden. They called him old, they called him weak, they called him feeble, all

after that debate saying that Donald Trump himself was strong and more capable of being president.

Donald Trump, while still saying that he won the debate, stopped short, particularly when it came to questions about Biden's age. Here's what he



TRUMP: Despite the fact that crooked Joe Biden spent the entire week at Camp David resting, working, studying. He studied very hard. He studied so

hard that he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

He got the debate rules that he wanted. He got the date that he wanted. He got the network that he wanted with the moderates he wanted. No amount of

rest or rigging could help him defend his atrocious record.


HOLMES: So, a couple of things I want to point out there. One, of course, Donald Trump and his team agreed to the exact same thing Biden's team did.

The moderator, the network, the timing. That was not something that Biden's team only did and Trump went along with, they agreed to that debate.

But the other thing I want to point out here is that Trump went on to say that this wasn't about age, that this was about Biden not being a good

president, not being mentally fit for office, which is different from what we heard from his advisers. They were watching very closely the reaction on

social media, part of that being the fact that Donald Trump is very hesitant to talk about Biden's age in relation to anything because he is

just right behind him when it comes to terms to those -- that age. And he knows that.

The other thing about this that he mentioned was that he thought that Biden would stay in office, that these rumors of him leaving or leaving the race

were true. That he thinks he actually pulls better than some of these other Democratic names that were being floated around. But as you mentioned, when

it comes to tone, it was very clear his team is celebrating right now. They have been since last night, and they will probably do so through the next


CHATTERLEY: Yes, Kristen Holmes in Virginia, thank you so much for that.

Meanwhile, now to a campaigning crisis, the Biden camp rejecting calls for him to step aside for the time being. Only one person can make the decision

to step aside, and of course, that's President Biden himself. And he has enough delegates to secure the nomination at the Democratic National

Convention in August.

For more on this I'm joined by Arlette Saenz. Arlette, good to have you with us too. I think what everybody's talking about today is the dramatic

difference that we saw in the president campaigning on Friday versus the president that appeared on that debate stage. How are we accounting for the


SAENZ: Well, Julia, yes, President Biden certainly was attempting to try to portray that he's in reset mode after that debate last night. He really

emerged at that campaign rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, much more fiery, much more impassioned as he was trying to make his contrast against Donald



In fact, in that speech, there were lines that he repeated that he had tried to deploy last night, but it actually fallen flat. But what you also

heard from President Biden was an acknowledgment that he did not perform well on that debate stage. But what he tried to lay out for voters was that

he knows that he's not a young person, that he doesn't walk or talk as quickly or was well as he used to, but that he does have good intentions

and does tell the truth.

Now, it all comes, I think, that you saw this really fiery and impassioned Biden today, something that his advisers had really hoped that he would be

able to portray and relay on the debate stage last night. But instead, viewers saw a stumbling and halting performance from the president.

Millions of people tuned in last night.

So, it's unclear what the rally that the president was at today, how far that will carry with voters in the coming days and coming weeks. But it's

clear from the president, from speaking to those around him, that they view this moment as in need of a course correction, that they know that there

are many outstanding questions from Democrats about the president's abilities.

Part of what campaign advisers tried to do over the course of the day was field those phone calls from anxious and nervous Democratic donors,

Democratic lawmakers, to try to ease some of their concerns. One adviser is saying that the campaign is currently in a dark place, but they're trying

to move forward.

Now, you did see some Democratic backup for President Biden today with a Former President Barack Obama, Former President Bill Clinton all posting on

social media, acknowledging it was a difficult night. But what those top Democrats are still arguing to voters, at this point, is that the choice

between Biden and Trump is explicitly clear, when you think about the way that the president has approached Democratic issues, approach issues

relating to the economy. So, I think that's something that you're going to hear a lot from those top Democrats going forward.

But there will still be some questions within the Democratic Party if Biden should remain at the top of the ticket. So, far, his campaign has said that

there are no plans to remove -- for him to step aside or to remove him, and they say that he is intense against debating Donald Trump once again in


So, a lot of eyes and attention will be paid to President Biden's -- not just his performance on the campaign trail, but also the way that his

campaign team is now kind of charting things out for the coming days and weeks as they're trying to allay some of those Democratic concerns and not

fully let that debate from last night sink into voter psyches.

CHATTERLEY: Certainly, this is a president that came out today on all guns blazing and certainly in no intention of stepping aside, at least today.

Arlette Saenz, thank you for that.

All right. Straight ahead, call it the debate heard around the world. International reaction to the Trump-Biden rematch just ahead.

Plus, the final countdown is on the U.S. Supreme Court. Justices set to issue their blockbuster ruling on presidential immunity on Monday of

supreme importance to the Former President Donald Trump, too, of course. We'll discuss, next.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." And TGIF to all our viewers across the United States, Europe, and Latin America. And happy Saturday

morning to everyone waking up with us in Asia.

In today's "Money Move," red arrows for U.S. stocks on the last trading day of the week, month, quarter, and first half of 2024. Wow. It flew. Shares

falling even after an encouraging read on U.S. prices. The Fed's preferred measure of inflation, what's known as the core CPE rising at its slowest

pace since November of last year.

Now, despite today's losses, it's profit taking. Let's be clear. The S&P 500 finished out the first half of the year with gains of 15 percent, and

that explains it. The NASDAQ faring even better up 20 percent thanks to the ongoing rally in all things A.I. related.

Green arrows too across Asia. Japanese stocks among the best gainers. The end also falling to a fresh 38-year low against the U.S. dollar.

Now, the U.S. Supreme Court issuing a supremely large number of important rulings on Friday, one of them limiting the Justice Department's use of an

obstruction law against January 6th defendants. The high court is expected to release its most closely watched decision of its current term, however,

on Monday, and that's tied to the presidential immunity ruling. Donald Trump has been lobbying for absolute immunity.

Katelyn Polantz joins us now. Katelyn, as important as Friday's ruling was, let's skip across to Monday and what we're expecting to hear from the

Supreme Court then.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: The final day of the Supreme Court this term, they've got two opinions to release. And the

one that is going to be enormously consequential, not just for Donald Trump and his current bid, very likely for president, but also for the American

presidency and the protections around that office that the Supreme Court could bestow onto it, all of that is at issue.

What has happened here in Donald Trump's criminal case related to the 2020 election, the January 6th riots, is that he has claimed that there should

be vast protections around things he was doing and saying while he was president. It's gone the whole way to the Supreme Court and the justices

have been considering, behind closed doors, exactly where they should draw the line of those protections.

Should everything the president does be protected and thus, should the case against Donald Trump be dismissed from the court system? Or are there

limits to the protections around that office of the U.S. president? Where they draw that line is going to be very important in this decision, and it

will dictate how everyone has to respond to it moving forward.

Will the case go to trial this year? And will the Special Counsel's office that's prosecuting Donald Trump within the U.S. Department of Justice, will

they have a route to continue this case in a speedy way, or will there just be more and more appeals ahead? So, a huge number of questions there, and

it will define how much protection the president has in their actions and if there are things where charges could come after a president leaves

office. And, of course, if Trump faces the case against him that is still pending.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. Monday is going to be a supremely important day. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for that. Have a great weekend.

POLANTZ: You too.

CHATTERLEY: We're back after this. Stay with "First Move."



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move" with a look at more international headlines this hour. French voters head to the polls this weekend for the

first round of a snap parliamentary election. It's been called the most consequential vote in the nation in decades. A strong showing by the hard

right or hard left could force President Emmanuel Macron to share power with a prime minister of another party, creating numerous uncertainties.

And voters in Iran went to the polls on Friday to choose a successor to Ebrahim Raisi. The former president was killed last month in a helicopter

crash. Four candidates are on the ballot, three of them are considered hardliners. They've all vowed to improve the economy though, which has been

crippled by western sanctions, mismanagement, and corruption.

A 7.2 magnitude earthquake hit the coast of Southern Peru early Friday. The quake was felt as far as the capital, some 600 kilometers away. Eight

injuries have been reported across the country's southern regions.

And news just in, "The New York Times" editorial board is calling on Joe Biden to leave the race for the White House. The board says the greatest

public service he can now perform is to not continue to run for re- election. But supporters of Joe Biden have been quick to defend him. Vice President Kamala Harris saying his record as president is far more

important than a single debate.


KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: The point has to be performance in terms of what a president does. So, I'm not going to spend all night with

you talking about the last 90 minutes when I've been watching the last three and a half years of performance.


CHATTERLEY: For more reaction, we're joined by Terry Haines, the founder of Pangea Policy. Terry, good to have you on the show. You wrote a note

after the debate last night saying, forget the idea that Democrats will replace Biden. It's almost certainly not going to happen unless he's

incapacitated or he agrees. Do you still hold that view?

TERRY HAINES, FOUNDER, PANGAEA POLICY AND FORMER SENIOR U.S. CONGRESSIONAL AIDE: Good to see you, Julia. And yes, absolutely, I do. I wrote that last

night and events since I think have confirmed that. You got a situation here where, you know, Biden is -- has spent the last 50 years getting to

this position. He's not going to give it up lightly or quickly.

And also, you have a situation where the last thing Democrats need to do right now, for their own interests, is panic. And you know, going off

halfcocked, going off too quickly will look exactly like that and put them into a great deal of disarray. They're not interested in doing that. So, I

think what's going to happen is they're going to tough it out and try for Biden 2.0.


CHATTERLEY: Something else that you wrote, Biden's performance might be disastrous if his opponent was anyone but Trump. Because it's Trump, Biden

isn't likely to suffer serious immediate or irretrievable electoral damage.

Terry, I sort of -- I read that, I think I agree with you, but I'm also sad, in a way, that I agree with you having watched the hour and a half

performance from both of these individuals last night.

HAINES: Well, it was sad to watch on a lot of levels, firstly. So, you and I are in agreement on that. Secondly, I will tell you this, the -- look at

it this way. Biden is at about 42 percent in the polls. He's essentially tied with Trump nationally. 33 percent of people in your flash poll after

the debate said that they thought Biden won the debate.

Now, you know, we could both snark on about how -- you know who these 33 percent are. That's not my point. My point is that, you know, he didn't

lose a lot from basic levels of support, and he's got four plus months here to rebuild this back. And it's not just him, it's a campaign and it's going

to involve a lot of message, just one, and it's going to involve a lot of get out the vote.

So, you know, these are two unpopular candidates. This an unpopular race. That said, you know, they can rebuild this thing and it sounds like they're

fixing to do that.

CHATTERLEY: What does rebuilding mean? Because I think in light of what Kamala Harris said yesterday, look, it's not about a 90-minute performance,

it's about the last three and a half years. And certainly, the people that were texting me, and many of them were Democrats last night, were saying,

it's about the next four and a half years. And the person on that stage last night, irrespective of what you think of Trump, did not look capable

of holding it together for the next six months, never mind the next four and a half years, nor should he.

So, those -- for those voters that you think are still saying, look, this my guy, are they thinking this my guy and it's OK if Kamala Harris is our

girl in a few months' time or at some point during the next administration, or are they simply saying, I hate Donald Trump and I can't do this?

HAINES: Well, a little bit of both actually. The -- you know, there's no doubt that the faith of a lot of people will have been shaken. And, you

know, one of my theories of the case on this all along has been that Biden needs to -- the conventional wisdom was that Biden needs to prove that he's

up to the job and capable of handling it in this debate. And, you know, then that'll be fine.

My theory has always been, he's going to need to prove that, pretty much every day between, you know, the debate and the election. That's still

true. But I think it's not irretrievable. But obviously, he's dug himself a hole. The other thing is that, interestingly, this from Larry Sabato, the

election whisperer at the University of Virginia. Sabato found this week, before the debate, that something like -- people that were, you know,

marginally OK with Biden's performance as president preferred Biden over Trump by 42 percent, and people that were marginally dissatisfied with

Biden's performance still preferred Biden to Trump by 77 percent. That's the -- those weren't typos.

What that tells you is that there's an awful lot of soft support for Biden, but that there's a hard -- that there's a ceiling and a cliff for Trump.

You know, people are not -- if it was any other Republican, you'd see migrations from Biden to that Republican if, in this particular case,

there's a conundrum, there's -- you know, there's nowhere for the Biden people to go, they certainly don't want to go to Trump. That, you know, in

a backhanded way provides Biden an opportunity, I think.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think the Democrats would do better if they replaced him? Terry, do you think they're having that conversation? Even if they

won't replace him or change it without his agreement, do you think they would do better without him, with anyone else?

HAINES: They -- yes, they are absolutely having that conversation. As I say, I think that's absolutely not going to happen. "New York Times" asking

him to resign, you know, is a whole lot more about "The New York Times" having enabled a lot of what just happened last night than anything else, I


But, you know, would they do better? It depends entirely on who those people are. If they're reasonably popular, if they're a lot younger, if

they have -- if they're from swing state, so they can actually bring a lot to the ticket, they might well do better. You know, one of the things

that's going to disturb a lot of voters is the idea that both Biden and Trump, are past their sell-by dates and they wish for somebody else.

You know, we live in the -- this year in the biggest gap between hunger for a third-party candidate, a credible serious third-party candidate, and the

third-party candidates that are actually on offer. You know, there was a time about six months ago where it looked like Bob Kennedy might be a

serious candidate That's long since gone.


So, you know, they're -- they owe it to themselves to look to freshen things up. But in the end, I think almost certainly they won't.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. I kind of feel that these individuals need to look inside themselves as well and decide whether they're in the best interest of the

nation too, but not today apparently. Terry Haines, sir, thank you so much. Great to chat to you.

Coming up after the break, another twist in the debate about what's real and what's not. We'll hear from the man behind this photo of a flamingo who

set out to prove a very important point. We'll explain.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." And you're looking at an image of what appears to be a headless flamingo, and it certainly got the art

world into a slight flap. The image called "FLAMINGONE" was entered into the prestigious 1839 Photography Awards in the Artificial Intelligence

category. Now, it won third place and also picked up the People's Vote Award. In first and second place, by the way, is this image of a woman with

swans and a woman sleeping, both by Robin Finlayson.

All sound good? Well, there's a slight wrinkle. "FLAMINGONE" is not A.I. It's a real photograph. And the artist, Miles Astray, joins us now. Miles,

welcome to the show. In your own words, why did you enter this competition and did you expect to be a winner?

MILES ASTRAY, MULTIDISCIPLINARY ARTIST: So, the idea was that I wanted to show that there is a human and emotional component to interpreting nature,

depicting nature and reality and all its beauty and fascination that there's a creative human emotional element to that, that no algorithm can


And so, that was the idea behind the stunt, like, to enter a real photograph into an A.I. competition. And yes, like, of course, I had hoped

to win and make a point here that is newsworthy and can transport this message to a lot of people. A message of hope also to people to creatives

out there who are worried about the implications of A.I., implications it might have on their work. And so, yes, I was really happy that, in the end,

it played out like that.


CHATTERLEY: And I'll just be clear for our audience, his head isn't gone, it's just buried in his fur. Just to be clear.

ASTRAY: Right.

CHATTERLEY: But winning this was no small feat. I mean, the jury consisted of "The New York Times," Getty Images, Maddox Gallery, and we will also

tell the audience that you were disqualified when they realized that it was a real photograph and not created using artificial intelligence. But they

also said the same thing that you did, which was they hope that actually this gave hope to artists that were concerned about the impact of A.I.

Do you fear it, whether it's for the creative community or beyond? Because I do think your message is an important one, that there is a sort of fight

back of real photography and real creation versus what can be done sort of instantly now with A.I.

ASTRAY: Right. Well, first of all, let me say real quick and address this real quick, like I was very humbled and happy about the reaction of the

organizers who were very supportive of my stunt, actually, which was not necessarily what I had expected and that really made my day. So, I was

really glad that we're on the same page about this.

And so, yes, what it means for me personally, if I'm being honest, I don't fear it all that much, for me personally. Like, I think, I have developed a

creative personal language that the machine simply does not speak. Like, I'm a writer and photographer. I combine these two mediums, and I think

it's a very unique and personal thing. It's very candid. It's documentary. And so, it is something that A.I. cannot really replicate.

That being said, of course, there are large implications for creatives out there. And we'll have to see how, on one hand, we can adapt to this as

creatives, how we can maybe even leverage this technology, use it to our advantage, maybe help along our workflow, free up resources for more

creative tasks and all of that.

But at the same time, like, I think we need to take the conversation around A.I. to the point of action now, where we also install some guardrails that

not only protect the livelihoods of creatives out there, but also help along with -- yes, like, in the fight against the spreading of

misinformation, for example, which I think is a huge topic.

Like, you guys covered the presidential debate last night. It's election year, not just in the U.S. And we have seen what social media and, like,

the spreading of fake news on social media, how it contributed to the 2016 presidential election, how it impacted it. And so, I think A.I., as a

technology, can be, in the hands of the wrong people, a weapon of mass misinformation.

And so, I think we have to get ahead of its light speed development right now, or we'll have a hard time catching up with it later. And I think --

CHATTERLEY: I like the fact that you're using your talent and your skills to highlight something -- actually the -- and I agree with you in a way at

this moment, it's perhaps bigger than the challenges, even that the creative industries faces, which is misinformation, disinformation, being

sort of proliferated across social media, which I agree.

Some of our audience members will recognize the name Boris Eldagsen, who won the Sony World Photo Awards in the creative category because he created

an A.I. generated image that was obviously meant to be not A.I. generated. So, he came at it in the opposite direction as you, but also making a

similar point, I think, Miles.

And now, I believe you're working with him just to -- again, to your point about raising awareness of A.I. and the challenges and the risks at this

moment. Can I ask what you're working on, and to your point about putting in more protections, what protections, how, and who needs to be doing this?

ASTRAY: Right. OK. So, yes, like Boris, that's his first name, he kind of came in from the opposite end, but his message was basically the same, the

bottom line, like we're not ready for all the implications of A.I. And so, he too wanted to raise public awareness of that and sparked that


And so, right now, like we've been talking. And so, it's kind of like same page, different book kind of situation, because our stunts were kind of the

opposite, kind of a yin yang situation, but like the message aligns.


And so, we're talking about going on a podcast together, maybe a couple of different ones and really, yes, taking some action here, like pushing this

conversation so that it can turn into proper action items. And so, you asked about that. And I think we're kind of lagging behind right now. There

are already some guardrails being put in place, but it is not sufficient. Like it is halfhearted, unilateral private sector initiatives by some

companies, for example, Meta started tagging some A.I. content, but it's not really working properly or sufficiently yet.

Tools like Dall-E start tagging like putting watermarks. On content, but it's still very easy to circumvent that. Watermark or metadata in the file

is pretty easy to circumvent for people with nefarious intentions, or even just accidentally, if you screenshot something, for example, the metadata

is already gone. So, I think there needs to be done more by the private sector.

And I think institutions, governments have to push that and have to lay the groundwork for there being more universal rules applied to all that applied

to all that.

CHATTERLEY: Protections.

ASTRAY: And I think --

CHATTERLEY: Miles, I've run out of time. I would keep you talking, but I'm going to run out of show. I think the message is more needs to be done and

in a consistent and concerted manner. Congrats on the photo. I love the photo, by the way.

ASTRAY: Thank you very much.

CHATTERLEY: But it was poignant to the message. Thanks, Miles. Great to chat to you.

ASTRAY: Thank you so much.

CHATTERLEY: We're back after this. Thank you.


CHATTERLEY: A historic night in the world of K-pop. The South Korean band, Seventeen, performed a few hours ago at the Glastonbury Festival, the

biggest music event in the U.K. They're the first K-pop performers ever, by the way, to play there. But they're not the only Asian musicians making a

real splash at Glastonbury this year. Mike Valerio has more.


MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From shattering album records to the biggest music festival in the U.K., these swift dance moves

are from Seventeen, one of the biggest K-pop groups at the moment. The 13- member boy group debuted in 2015. Their "FML" album sold over 6 million copies worldwide, making it the bestselling album of 2023. They also broke

the record for the most pre-orders ever for an album in South Korea.

VERNON, SEVENTEEN GROUP MEMBER: It's an amazing cultural way, cultural change we're witnessing, and we're just so happy to be a part of it.

VALERIO (voice-over): If you think that's an impressive feat for these young men, this weekend, Seventeen will perform at Glastonbury 2024, making

them the first K-pop group to sing at the music festival. And sharing the stage with the likes of Dua Lipa, Cold Play, and Shania Twain this weekend

at Glastonbury is another Asian pacific bass group, Voice of Baceprot or VOB.


Singing heavy metal and hijabs, these impressive young women are making history as the first Indonesian band to play at Glastonbury.

WIDI RAHMAWATI, BASSIST, VOICE OF BACEPROT (through translator): We perform metal music. In our village, metal is considered satanic music, not

suitable for women, especially women wearing hijabs like us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Music is like a diary to me and the other girls. It's a place for us to be happy and share happiness with

other people. If the audience can get something out of our music, like a message, then we are grateful.

SAENZ (voice-over): The Voice of Baceprot members met in junior high school in their small West Java village and gained the attention of

international rock stars like former Rage Against the Machine guitarist Tom Morello. This weekend will be filled with accomplishments for these young

Asian Pacific performers.

Mike Valerio, CNN, Seoul.


CHATTERLEY: And that just about wraps up the show. Thank you for watching and have a wonderful weekend. I'll see you on Monday.