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First Move with Julia Chatterley
U.S. Supreme Court Upholds the Ban on TikTok; TikTok Thanks President-Elect Trump for Support; China's VP to Attend Trump's Inauguration; Israeli Cabinet Approves Ceasefire-Hostage Deal; Canada's Energy Secretary on Tariff Threat; Starship Operations Grounded by Regulators; Jamie Oliver's Recipe for Success. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired January 17, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: -- people, but that's not true. That wasn't accurate. We've learned there are actually two original members of the
Village People performing, including Victor Willis. Young man, there's no need to feel down.
You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on the TikTok, @jaketapper. You can follow the show on X, @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an
episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts. Wolf Blitzer picks it up. See you on Monday morning.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: It's 7:00 a.m. in Beijing, 1:00 a.m. in Tel Aviv, and 6:00 p.m. here in New York. I'm Julia Chatterley. And
wherever you are in the world, this is your "First Move."
And a warm welcome to "First Move," as always. And here's today's need to know. TikTok turmoil. The president-elect says he will decide what happens
as the U.S. Supreme Court upholds the ban on the app. Indoor inauguration. Cold weather forces a setting change in Washington as China confirms its
vice president will attend the swearing in. SpaceX setback. Starship operations are grounded by regulators after a test flight explodes minutes
after launch. And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE OLIVER: Getting food right in schools. You know, teaching kids how to cook 10 recipes to save their life will save you more money than you
could ever dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Jamie Oliver's message to Donald Trump as he continues his career long battle for better nutrition. That conversation and plenty more
coming up.
But first, the U.S. Supreme Court refusing Friday to stop the clock on a TikTok ban. Throwing the fate of the popular social media app into fresh
uncertainty. The court paving the way for a U.S. law to take effect Sunday that would effectively force a shutdown of the app, seeing as there's no
imminent deal to buy TikTok, at least in the near-term.
That said, the Biden administration says it will not enforce the ban before the Trump administration takes over. And President-Elect Trump says he'll
issue an executive order as soon as he's sworn into office to give TikTok more time to do a deal. Trump insists that his administration will have the
last word. And by the way, the CEO of TikTok will attend Monday's inauguration, and he's thanking the president-elect for his support.
Trump discussed TikTok along with other pressing issues with Chinese leader Xi Jinping on Friday. Trump called it a quick, very good phone call. The
big question is whether TikTok might go dark or disappear from the app stores over the weekend in this apparent gray area between the Biden and
Trump administrations. And of course, all assuming China is even willing to sell.
Now, TikTok's estimated 170 million users in the United States are hoping that a white knight will ultimately come in and save the day. Perhaps the
most concrete offer on the table comes from a group led by billionaire Frank McCourt, whose backers include "Shark Tank" TV star Kevin O'Leary.
And I'm very Pleased to say Kevin O'Leary joins us now. So, Happy New Year. And what an exciting start to the year it is. Very quickly, why is the
people's bid that you've thrown your weight behind the best available choice, not just for ByteDance, but also for the millions of American users
of this app?
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: Well, first of all, a few hours ago, when the Supreme Court rendered their decision nine-zero, that's
incredibly definitive, included in the letter or the ruling on page five. It was very, very clear in page five and paragraphs on six that they have
decided that none of the technology involved in the algorithm could be included in a sale to a U.S. syndicate. That's a very strong indication
that you just can't buy the algorithm.
And so, our offer from the beginning, announced two weeks ago, and then papered with all shareholders in the company itself through bankers,
includes no interest in purchasing the algorithm, which is now forbidden.
So, you know, we're ahead of the game in that sense that we're ready to take on the task of rewriting it. We have to, we have no choice. But in
addition to that and why I teamed up with Frank in the first place was I'm concerned about the 7 million businesses on TikTok that make their living
there. It's in -- all my companies, about 60 percent of their digital spend is on TikTok.
And so, all of those -- there are two generations of shark tankers, as I call them. I think they all know me and I think they trust me. I want to
make sure that they have an opportunity using a law here in the U.S. called the JOBS Act to be able to invest beside me no matter what amount they want
to put in. So, they become shareholders in the platform. That's why we call it the people's bid in the first place.
So, we have millions of shareholders in this deal that are all involved in supporting it and making their living from it. And I'm offering them, or at
least I want to, the ability to come in at the same price. And so, that indications JOBS Act we've set up through quite a bit of work, a website
called a wonderfultiktok.com where people, if they're qualified, can register their interest and decide how much they want to invest.
[18:05:00]
CHATTERLEY: I like the idea of that, that, as you said, you're making it about the people and perhaps some of the small businesses that are using
this platform, and we're going to speak to one later on in the show.
Who else is behind this bid other than perhaps the public, as you've suggested, and you and Frank in particular? Can you give us any sense?
Because you've said $20 billion of cash is on the table for this. We can debate whether that's enough money. But who else is so the wallet behind
this? Can you give us any detail?
O'LEARY: Sure. We think -- you know, we don't know with certainty, but we think that it's worth about $20 billion without the algorithm. Frank
McCourt and I were competing on this three months ago. And we have come together on it for obvious reasons. We both -- we each have something the
other needs. Frank has spent a fair amount of time, energy and money on build -- give a really strong look at a new tech stack. That's very
important.
And so, we need that tech stack. Now, we found out today, four hours ago, that there's no option to do anything else. And so, he's -- this is very
important for the bid that we've got something to replace the existing algorithm.
But it's a well-known fact, it's a public fact that Guggenheim backs Frank McCourt. So, you know that there are assets under management more than $300
billion. And there's many other pools of capital that have contacted us, they're interested in participating, whatever the price ends up being.
CHATTERLEY: OK. Because the consensus estimate is even without the algorithm, the price is somewhere between $30 and $50 billion. Do you
potentially have that much, Kevin? Are you willing to pay that much?
O'LEARY: Well, I mean -- look, I don't know -- if that's what it's going to take, we'll find that out. What we need to have happen here -- I mean,
this is an unusual deal. It's across two administrations.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
O'LEARY: The order which is issued a long time ago, says at midnight on the 19th, all service providers must shut down. So, that -- it may go dark
for a while. We don't know. We don't know what's going to happen here. However, Biden himself has the option. He's the executive currently until
that -- until 12:05 on the 20th, to extend execution, so to speak, by 90 days.
If he believes that there's a viable LOI, a letter of intent, and we've put that forward to the company and to all its shareholders, and they know it
exists. The Biden administration knows it exists and the terms and so does the Trump where -- you know, this thing is not a partisan deal. The
companies on it are Republicans and Democrats, and families in America, regardless of their politics, use this to live. And so, we really want to
keep it lit up.
And it's really -- the ball is in Xi's court, it's not -- the decision now that having been rendered is now it's -- the determination, does he want to
sell it?
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
O'LEARY: And I'd argue, that it's better for everybody if he does, at least, you know, depending on what the price is, we don't know, but at
least maybe $20 billion would go to existing shareholders rather than lose it.
And the other factor, because we know that Trump called Xi, I don't -- I think Trump would be unhappy if Xi decided to just shut it down. And I'm
not sure Trump's the kind of guy you want to make unhappy.
CHATTERLEY: Do you think it becomes part of a bigger negotiation, though, over tariffs, to your point about the conversation with Xi?
O'LEARY: 100 percent.
CHATTERLEY: Right. And does that work in your favor?
O'LEARY: Yes. I mean, that's a very intuitive question. Yes, I believe you're right. I mean, I think that's a very intuitive question. I believe
that -- you know, I asked Trump myself last weekend, are you OK with TikTok? I mean, if he told me, look, I don't want it. I'm going to shut it
down. I wouldn't waste my time and money either with Frank, but that's not the case. He believes it's important. He likes competition. And he told me
to continue on. And whatever that means, it means it's -- he's not it up for shutting it down. And that's clear in his narrative since.
And so, I think you're right. It's part of a bigger negotiation. And I don't know what that is because nobody's privy to the conversation that
Trump had with Xi today.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Do you think that the Chinese might prefer Elon and do you think the regulators won't allow that anyway? So, it's irrelevant.
O'LEARY: I think Elon's challenge is antitrust.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
O'LEARY: I think, you know, if you are -- if you already have a social media site, same with Zuckerberg. And Elon doesn't have the dome of desire
I have. I'm very proud of this.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I guess all bets are off though with this administration, though, to your point about regulation.
O'LEARY: Listen, there's something magical about the dome of desire.
CHATTERLEY: OK. We're running out of time. Come back on and talk to us. I get the feeling this is going to be a very interesting few weeks. Good luck
with your --
O'LEARY: No question about it.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
O'LEARY: Take care.
[18:10:00]
CHATTERLEY: Kevin O'Leary, chairman of O'Leary Ventures. Great to chat to you, sir. We'll talk again, please.
All right. The clock is also ticking down on Donald Trump's inauguration day and Mother Nature pushing Monday's events indoors. Trump saying on
Truth Social, I've ordered the inauguration address in addition to prayers and other speeches to be delivered in the United States Capitol Rotunda, as
was used by Ronald Reagan in 1985, also because of very cold weather.
It's expected to be the coldest inauguration day in four decades with temperatures in the low 20s Fahrenheit in Washington. Just to give you a
sense, that's around negative six in Celsius.
And as he prepares to return to the White House, Trump held what he calls, as we were just discussing there, a very good phone call with Chinese
leader Xi Jinping discussing issues including trade, fentanyl, and of course, TikTok. He said on Truth Social, it's my expectation that we will
solve many problems together, and starting immediately.
China is sending Vice President Han Zheng to Monday's ceremony as Xi's special representative. It's the first time a senior Chinese leader will
attend a U.S. presidential inauguration, as Will Ripley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Extraordinary diplomatic moves by Chinese President Xi Jinping. A phone
call Friday with Xi and President-Elect Donald Trump.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: I have a very good relationship with President Xi. We have been communicating with each other.
RIPLEY (voice-over): The phone call seen as a rare public signal of Xi's willingness to work with Trump, an unusual move by China's leadership.
Adding to the diplomatic gesture, Xi, for the first time, sending Vice President Han Zheng to Washington for Monday's inauguration. Han, the
highest-ranking Chinese official ever to attend a U.S. presidential swearing in.
Trump's return to the White House is a trending topic on Chinese social media. SpaceX's latest starship explosion, a firework celebration for Trump
from his friend Elon Musk.
China's admiration for Trump comes with an ironic twist. On social media, he's nicknamed Nation Building Trump, a reference to how his divisive
policies and personality, along with his focus on China propped up Beijing's global standing.
Also, comments like these, the Dragon King is coming back. The official photo of American Empire's King Trump. Don't worry, TikTok is the home base
for Trump. He won't ban it.
These Chinese kids are even learning to dance to YMCA. The Village People are on Trump's inauguration performance list.
Trump's popularity in China is a cultural phenomenon. His likeness has appeared on Lunar New Year items, from a Year of the Dog statue to a Year
of the Pig shirt. Now, Trump is being called, jokingly, the king who knows everything, a nod to this popular new MAGA hat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chinese people look at him and contrast him with their lifeless leaders, and they say, he's the guy we like.
RIPLEY (voice-over): On Chinese social media, comparisons are emerging between Trump and Zhen Huan, the cunning and resilient protagonist of the
hit Chinese drama "Empresses in the Palace."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is even a Trump fandom in China. The Chinese call Trump Chen Daye (ph). The meaning is a great Trump grandfather.
RIPLEY (voice-over): This is not Trump's first cultural impact in China. During his first presidency, he became the only foreign leader in modern
history to dine in the forbidden city. The move, orchestrated by Beijing, appealed to Trump's love for spectacle, a brief honeymoon phase in U.S.-
China relations, later derailed by trade wars and the pandemic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: OK. And breaking news just into CNN. Israel's full cabinet just approving the Gaza ceasefire and hostage deal. That of course paves
the way for it to go into effect on Sunday. This was after more than five hours of deliberations today with that full cabinet. Hamas is expected to
release three female hostages on the first day. In exchange, Israel will free 95 Palestinian prisoners. And there will be more exchanges in the
weeks to come.
Meanwhile, nearly 120 people have lost their lives in Israeli attacks on Gaza since the deal was announced on Wednesday, that according to
Palestinian officials.
So, just to reiterate that breaking news. A deal from -- an agreement from the full cabinet over in Israel that allows the implementation now of that
ceasefire and hostage release deal. So, that's what we're watching for now. The first obvious day that matters in this is Sunday, when we're expecting
to see, as I just mentioned there, the first release of those three hostages. And of course, throughout the day, the release of those
Palestinian prisoners as well. But this is an enormous, enormous moment.
[18:15:00]
And it did clearly take some negotiation and some discussion, as you're looking at those pictures there, of that full cabinet meeting, thrashing
out the contours of this deal to reach an agreement that we literally just got in the past few moments. We will have further details on this and full
analysis afterwards.
Straight ahead. Canada in the crosshairs. The great white north preparing for inauguration day in the USA. And a barrage of expected new Trump
tariffs. Canada's energy minister joins us next.
Plus, Jamie Oliver's recipe for improving our lives through a better and more nutritious diet. My simply delicious interview with this culinary
force of nature coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." And a reminder of our breaking news. Israel's full cabinet approving the Gaza ceasefire and hostage
release deal. That paves the way for it now to go into effect on Sunday. Hamas is expected to release three female hostages on that first day. In
exchange, Israel will free 95 Palestinian prisoners. And there will be more exchanges in the weeks to come.
Joining us now is Middle East policy analyst Jasmine El-Gamal. Jasmine, good to have you with us. Good to be with you. And we have been waiting for
this, but it did clearly take some deliberation, more than five and a half hours of that full cabinet in discussions, but it is a momentous moment, I
think.
JASMINE EL-GAMAL, FORMER PENTAGON MIDDLE EAST ADVISER: That's right. And thank you for having me. I mean, it is definitely a momentous moment. The
cabinet, the Israeli cabinet has voted in favor of the deal 24 to 8. And despite this being Shabbat, of course, the Orthodox ministers, Orthodox
members said that this was a matter of life and death. It's a matter of human life. So, they did go in and vote. And so, extremely positive news
that the deal has been signed.
Obviously, I've been saying, you know, to your colleagues over the last few days that the devil remains in the details and the implementation of the
actual ceasefire and the enforcement mechanisms. But for now, this is extremely welcome news.
CHATTERLEY: Also, just to the point of the six hours that it took and as you said, a 24 to 8 vote, what it cost Netanyahu to get those that were
unconvinced by this deal on board, including the prospects for the remaining 65 hostages that aren't included in this deal, assuming to your
point that everything goes to plan and those that are released will be released and are.
[18:20:00]
EL-GAMAL: That's right. And, you know, obviously, the human cost here , I mean, we -- you know, we have to take a minute to mention the human cost
of, you know, first, how long it's taken to get this deal. As you know, the deal that was signed is very, very similar to the deal that was first laid
out by President Biden in the spring of last year.
So, there are a lot of questions, both by Palestinians who've lost family members who've been suffering for the last several months since that deal
was presented by President Biden, the hostage families, the number of people who have died since that initial deal was first put on the table. It
really is a tragedy, but it would be even more tragic if the ceasefire wasn't fully implemented. It has a lot of details, a lot of moving pieces.
And so, the really critical role here moving forward is going to be that of the mediators, the enforcers of the ceasefire, Qatar, Egypt and the United
States who are going to be setting up a joint operations room to monitor the day-to-day issues that are in the ceasefire agreement and really making
sure and pushing the two parties to abide by those rules and stipulations, which so many people are worried that they're not going to.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, we learned that earlier today from I think Egyptian State One Media, that the joint operations room is going to be established, to
your point, in Cairo to monitor the implementation of this deal. What are you expecting on Sunday, first and foremost? And when do you see in your --
I think your point is vital about the sort of monitoring and the endearing to the contours of this deal. But when do you foresee beyond Sunday perhaps
the most immediate challenges to the implementation of this agreement?
EL-GAMAL: It's a really good question. And of course, it's impossible to predict the future. I mean, the most that we have is looking at past
examples of similar deals and trying to guess the likelihood of one or both parties reneging on some of those stipulations.
The first phase of the deal is fairly straightforward. Hopefully, the Israeli military is to withdraw to the parameters of the Strip. The initial
round of hostages is to be released, a surge of humanitarian assistance is to go into the Gaza Strip, and then Palestinian prisoners, including women
and children, are to be released. And so, those are, I suppose you would say, relatively speaking, some of the less controversial elements, which is
why they're up front.
Now, what people worry about is after that initial phase is complete, the second and third phases of the deal. The second phase doesn't even begin to
be negotiated in terms of details until about halfway through the first phase is actually implemented.
So, I anticipate if everything goes well in those first few days, you know, we're talking about two parties, Hamas and Israel, that have extreme lack
of trust towards one another, they don't trust the other to maintain their end of the deal. They're going to be looking for ways which the other party
is reneging on the deal so that they could back out.
So, again, it just comes to my point about the really vital role of the mediators and the new administration, the Trump administration, that is now
going to be in charge of overseeing the implementation of this deal.
CHATTERLEY: And what about the importance of the tone that the president- elect and the incoming administration take? Because there is this implicit suggestion that if there is some break in this phase of implementation,
certainly from Hamas' side, that there's an implicit assumption that the United States will be behind Israel if they choose to restart the violence.
How does that play into, I think, the adherence of both sides to the contours of this?
EL-GAMAL: Yes, that's right. I mean, look, when it comes to the mediators and their role, obviously, the United States has that relationship with the
Israeli government, it's acting as a guarantor of the Israeli government's promises. And then, you have Qatar and Egypt on the other side, acting as
guarantors of Hamas' promises. And so, those mediators are going to be working together to make sure that those promises are kept.
If there is an accusation of a violation on the part of 1 party or the other, I mean, if you look at the Lebanon ceasefire, which was signed
several weeks ago, really, almost immediately there were violations and accusations of violations by both sides against the other, but the
ceasefire held.
And so, it's going to be a really delicate balance of pushing the two sides to keep their end of the bargain, but also that if there are accusations
that one side or the other is reneging, for those mediators to very quickly step in and make sure that those accusations are dealt with in a way that
doesn't break the momentum of the remainder of the ceasefire and the remainder of the phases.
[18:25:00]
It's a really, really critical time ahead. But again, just going back to that human cost, the number of people who've died, even just since the
ceasefire was announced by the Qatari prime minister, I think over 80, 85 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli airstrikes since then, we don't
know how many hostages are alive still or whether any of them have died in the last few days.
So, really, just in terms of human cost, it is absolutely critical that this deal is implemented in good faith and that the mediators play an
important role in making sure that that happens.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, the heartbreaking loss of civilian and human life in this, to your point, is the best reason to pray that this holds. Just one
final question.
EL-GAMAL: Absolutely.
CHATTERLEY: What's Hamas' greatest incentive to abide by the contours of this deal and agreement?
EL-GAMAL: Well, that's a good question. I mean, you can ask also, what was the incentive for Hamas to sign the deal in the first place?
CHATTERLEY: Right. same question.
EL-GAMAL: I mean, for the last few years -- yes, for the last few months Hamas, at various points, has been ready to sign a deal. They are weakened
dramatically, significantly in terms of military strength. They have lost their allies in Lebanon. Hezbollah is also completely decimated. Iran is
severely weakened. And so -- and of course, public opinion, pressure from the mediators and pressure from the people of Gaza as well, who are just
saying enough is enough. We can't take this any longer. This is too much to bear. You need to sign this deal and end this war.
So, I think a variety of factors have led to Hamas, you know, entering into this agreement and having, as you said, the incentive to remain in this
agreement in good faith. And of course, there's that threat of retaliation from the Israeli side backed by the U.S., that if they were to actually
renege on this deal that there would be a heavy price to pay, not just for them, but for the civilian population of Gaza as well. So, those are all
good reasons for them to do the right thing.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and of course, we've been reporting that Netanyahu says he got guarantees of that U.S. support in light of a break of this deal by
Hamas. Jasmine, great to get your insights. Thank you so much.
EL-GAMAL: Thank you so much.
CHATTERLEY: We'll be back after this. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." And a reminder once again of our breaking news this hour, Israel's full cabinet just approving the Gaza
ceasefire and hostage deal. Jeremy Diamond joins us now from Tel Aviv. Jeremy, not without, what, six hours of deliberations for this full
cabinet. I think many Israelis and Palestinians holding their breath for this moment, and finally it's come.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Without a doubt. I mean, just after 1:00 a.m. in the morning, the government finally voting to approve
this ceasefire agreement that had been announced more than 48 hours earlier. This came after the Israeli prime minister contended with some
issues within his own governing coalition, some opposition from far-right ministers in his government, but ultimately, this deal getting across the
finish line.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (voice-over): The ceasefire and hostage release deal one step closer to becoming a reality. After 24 hours of political wrangling and
uncertainty, the Israeli government voting to approve the deal over the objections of far-right ministers like Itamar Ben-Gvir.
ITAMAR BEN GVIR, ISRAELI NATIONAL SECURITY MINISTER (through translator): I call on my friends in Likud and the Religious Zionist Party, it is not
too late. A government meeting is ahead of us. We can stop this deal. Join me. We can stop it.
DIAMOND (voice-over): This time, neither he nor Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, who also opposed the deal, were able to thwart it.
The ceasefire now set to take effect on Sunday, with scenes like this from 2023 of hostages being released from Gaza, expected as early as Sunday
afternoon.
On the first day, Hamas will release three female civilian hostages. Like other civilian hostages, each one will be freed in exchange for 30
Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. Five female soldiers held by Hamas are also set to be released during the six-week ceasefire in exchange
for 50 Palestinian prisoners each, including 30 who are serving life sentences.
After 15 months of war, a ceasefire could not come soon enough for the people of Gaza, who have stared down starvation and face unending food
insecurity. Beyond a reprieve from Israeli bombardment, the ceasefire is also expected to deliver a surge of aid, 600 trucks per day.
I pray to God that this will be the last day we need to use this kitchen and that we can eat comfortably in our homes, this man says.
I don't want to ever come back to this soup kitchen, young Talin (ph) says. We've been killed for moving to where they told us to go. We've been killed
for trying to get food. We've been killed for trying to get water. She says she cannot wait for the ceasefire to begin.
Until it does, Gaza remains a war zone, and there has been no letup in the Israeli military's assault on Gaza. Since the ceasefire was announced, at
least 116 people, including 30 children, have been killed, according to Gaza's civil defense. How many more must die before the guns go silent?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (on camera): And we know that there will be approximately 24 hours, during which time the Israeli Supreme Court will hear petitions from
individuals arguing against the release of those hundreds of Palestinian prisoners who will be freed in exchange for those 33 Israeli hostages.
The Israeli government has wide leeway to release those prisoners, however, so those challenges not at all expected to be successful. And that will
bring us then to Sunday, when this ceasefire is expected to go into effect. Those first three female Israeli hostages set to be released from Hamas
captivity after more than 15 months.
But then, of course, Julia, there are still questions about what lies ahead. What bumps in the road will there be during the six-week ceasefire?
And will we even be able to extend that ceasefire? Will the parties ultimately get to an end of the war very much in question? Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Certainly. And it's also going to come down to the monitoring of the implementation and the adherence to this as well, Jeremy.
[18:35:00]
I was just talking earlier on the show about the joint operations room that we believe will be established in Cairo. Can you give us any more details
on how that's going to work and who's going to be involved?
DIAMOND: Well, our understanding is that the mediating parties who were able to broker this deal will be helming that monitoring effort. Unlike,
however, you know, the ceasefire in Lebanon, where you have the United Nations on the ground, that is not going to be the state in Gaza.
And so, you can expect that there will be allegations flying back and forth between Israel and Hamas. One accusing the other of violations. There
likely will be violations of this deal on the ground. That frequently does happen in ceasefires. The question is, will any of those violations
actually trigger a breaking of this agreement? And also, could any of those violations be used as a pretext by one party or the other to return to a
state of war? And that question is particularly important for the Israeli prime minister, who has been facing pressure from right-wing ministers to
oppose this deal altogether, but ultimately, to return to the fight in Gaza, to return to war after the first phase of this agreement is complete.
And the Israeli prime minister today, trying to tell his cabinet that he's received assurances from the incoming Trump administration that should
Hamas break terms of this ceasefire, that they will have the full backing of the United States to go back to war. So, certainly something to keep an
eye on. Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Certainly. And I think one of the other questions and, again, a lot of moving pieces to this, to your point, and closely watching the
adherence over the coming days as well, what the cost is for Netanyahu himself? As we were hearing there, and we know the vote was 24 to 8. There
were voices in the cabinet that were saying this is not the right deal and not the right time, and we clearly should continue to push for the sort of
full extermination of Hamas. And obviously, voices that were pushing for asking questions about what happens now for the remaining 65 hostages that
aren't part of this deal. What has this, do we think, cost Netanyahu?
DIAMOND: Well, there's no question that the Israeli prime minister is going to face some real political challenges ahead. And he may not have
fought his toughest battle yet. The national security minister, Itamar Ben- Gvir, said that he will leave the government when this deal is approved. That has now happened. And so, if his word is true, then expect him to
leave the government. That will leave Netanyahu with just a two-seat majority in the Knesset.
And then, he has to contend with his finance minister, who was also opposed to this deal, but sought assurances from Netanyahu that Israel will return
to the fight in Gaza once that first phase is complete. And so, as we near the completion of that first phase, make no mistake, that Netanyahu will
once again come under significant political pressure from right-wing elements within his own government. And that will have, of course, a real-
world impact on the fate of the remaining hostages and, of course, on the people of Gaza.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. But for now, full cabinet approval for this ceasefire- hostage deal to take place, and we await what happens on Sunday. Jeremy Diamond, great to have you. Thank you so much for that.
We'll be back after this. Stay with "First Move."
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[18:40:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." Anxiety in Ottawa ahead of Donald Trump's inauguration next week. The U.S. president-elect has been
threatening a blanket tariff on Canadian imports of up to 25 percent.
The nation is a U.S. friendly option for key resources like uranium, potash, and critical minerals. It also happens, by the way, to provide more
than half of U.S. crude oil imports. And Canadian officials have warned that U.S. energy costs as a result of tariffs.
My next guest just held a round of meetings in Washington, D.C., and he says that Canada and the U.S. are stronger when they work together. I'm
pleased to say we're joined now by Jonathan Wilkinson, the Canadian Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Minister, fantastic to have you
on the show. Thank you so much for your time.
JONATHAN WILKINSON, CANADIAN MINISTER OF ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: I want to talk about your discussions in D.C., talking to lawmakers, I think about what Canada already offers and can offer perhaps
in the future. Do you think they understand better today as a result why tariffs aren't the right solution?
WILKINSON: Well, I think they do. I was talking about sort of two different things. The first was just making sure that the decision makers
in Washington fully appreciated the impact of tariffs on their best friend and longtime ally, which is Canada. Which are things like, you know, the
Midwestern refineries, which are set up for Canadian heavy crude would, if a tariff was put on, see prices at the pump spike in Midwest by up to 75
cents a gallon. You would see higher food prices as a result of the tariff on potash. You would see higher electricity prices because there would be.
higher tariff on hydroelectricity exports and uranium exports to the United States. So, significant impacts on American consumers.
And what I was saying was, rather than actually getting into some kind of a tit for tat with a country that is actually your best friend and neighbor,
there are so many things we can do to achieve the objectives that President Trump articulated during the campaign, about helping to lower energy costs,
about making the United States and Canada more secure, vis-a-vis China in terms of critical minerals and energy. And helping the United States and
Donald Trump to actually do the things that he talks about in terms of energy dominance, which typically is about more energy exports leveraging
Canada's resource base.
CHATTERLEY: Do you think the president-elect considers Canada a best friend, to use your term, anymore? He sort of seems to start at base zero
with these relationships, and it feels that way again.
WILKINSON: Well, I certainly hope he does. You know, our respective countries have the longest non militarized border in the world. We are the
largest trading partners with each other, virtually than any other two countries in the world. We have fought side by side in World Wars
throughout this last century. And when there are calamities in both of our countries we help each other, like the aid that Canada is sending to
California to battle the wildfires right now.
We sometimes have differences, all countries do. But I would say that generally Canada and the U.S. have been enormously collaborative and we
have both benefited from that economically, militarily, geopolitically, and I would certainly hope that that continues. I see nothing but lose, lose
out of going down a path of the United States imposing terrorist, Canada feeling that it needs to respond, where we actually can create enormous
value and we can help serve the interests of the new Trump administration while also doing things that are going to benefit Canada. Why wouldn't we
do that? It's win-win.
CHATTERLEY: Minister, you've left open the prospect of applying export tariffs on energy in response if the president-elect and the Trump
administration applies tariffs on Canada. I just wonder whether you're being undermined by Alberta Premier, Danielle Smith. She obviously met
Trump at Mar-a-Lago. She seems to have sort of broken ranks. I saw a post on X where she said she didn't agree with any potential tariffs or export
tariffs on Canadian energy or any other products or a ban on exports to the United States.
[18:45:00]
Is she sort of undermining your position?
WILKINSON: Well, I would say a couple things. I mean, the first is nobody wants to get to the point that Premier Smith is talking about and nobody
wants to get to the point where we are, you know, going back and forth and eventually, you know, putting tariffs on critical minerals that we export
to the United States or stopping the export altogether. Nobody wants to go there. And certainly, I don't want to go there.
And that's why I was in Washington pitching the positive way to actually extract ourselves from this challenging conversation, which is to figure
out how we best serve some of the interests that the president campaigned on in a way that can actually benefit both countries.
I do think that it is important to know that, you know, Canada has 10 provinces and three territories, and it was 12 of those folks, plus the
prime minister, that signed on to a joint statement. The only person who did not was Premier Smith.
At the end of the day, Canada can't take all of the tools off the table before we actually find a resolution to this. But nobody wants to go there.
We actually want to find a deal with the president that is a long-time expert in making deals.
CHATTERLEY: He's also an expert in making threats as well. And I think he would certainly agree with your analysis of not taking any of those tools
off the table until you get to the negotiations. Do you think Canada's missed an opportunity in not diversifying over the past decade? It's sort
of customer-base for oil.
I mean, I know you have the expanded pipeline to the Pacific, which is open to new markets in Asia, but I just wonder whether that should now be the
mission, perhaps it should be, so that you're not so reliant on the United States, even if you are best friends.
WILKINSON: Well, I mean, maybe so. I would say Canadians probably didn't expect that we would actually end up in the kind of conversation we're
having right now. We have a free trade agreement with the United States and have had it for, you know, decades. Tariffs are a significant deviation
from a free trade agreement, and one would say that they kind of run counter to the idea of free trade.
We have diversified many of our exports. You know, the uranium companies can sell uranium elsewhere. The potash companies can sell potash elsewhere.
We and critical minerals can be sold almost anywhere around the world because there's lots of people who want critical minerals.
But in terms of our gas, natural gas and oil, we do significantly sell that to the United States. We now have a pipeline, as you noted, for oil to
Asia. But, you know, the volume of oil that we provide to the United States is very significant. It's about 4 million barrels a day.
But let's be clear, our economies are so interrelated. Like, what we produce here is heavy crude. The United States doesn't produce heavy
crudes. They produce predominantly light, sweet crudes. The refineries in the Midwest and many in the Gulf Coast are set up for Canadian crude. They
can't really use other creds.
And so, you know, the interrelated nature of our economy means that when we take action, they're negative against each other. Everybody suffers.
Consumers in the United States and people in Canada.
CHATTERLEY: There are alternatives. You've got to get talking to Venezuela, the president-elect, and I guess Russia for potash.
WILKINSON: Well, yes, that's true. But that's only true for --
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Exciting times. Very quickly, sir. You were at least being considered and I think being pushed by certain individuals to look at
being the next leader of the Liberal Party and replacing Justin Trudeau and you've made it clear that that's not the path for you forward. I just
wanted to ask who you think the best person is to lead the party and potentially the country in the future.
WILKINSON: Well, there are going to at least be three candidates running for that. I have great respect for all of them, and I've known all of them
a long time. I think eventually I will get to the point that I will likely endorse one of them, but I have not taken that decision yet.
I just announced today that I would not be running. I did that largely because of the challenges that Canada faces in the context of the
discussions with the United States and the fact that energy and resources are so integral to that. Had it not been for this challenge, I probably
would be in the race myself, but eventually, I probably will endorse one of the three.
CHATTERLEY: You're young, sir. There is always time. Never say never. But I appreciate your point about the excitement of the coming few months and
years. Sir, we'll talk again, I hope. Thank you so much for your time and your patience. I appreciate we were a little late in getting to you.
WILKINSON: Thank you very much.
CHATTERLEY: The minister there of energy and natural resources for Canada. We'll be right back.
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[18:50:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to "First Move." The SpaceX Starship rocket has been grounded pending an FAA investigation after it exploded on Thursday. I
can give you a quick look at the burning fragments of the Starship. Beautiful, that debris forcing some airlines to divert flights in the
Florida area.
SpaceX CEO Elon Musk says a fuel or oxygen leak may have caused the Starship to explode just minutes after launch.
Joining us now to discuss is retired NASA astronaut Leroy Chiao. Leroy, fantastic to have you on the show. Happy Friday. There has to be a mishap
investigation, and my understanding is SpaceX leads that, but the FAA has to sign off and approve any corrective measures. It looks like Elon's
already well underway with investigating himself.
LEROY CHIAO, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Well, that's right. And as you pointed out, there was a successful launch yesterday. And, you know, we saw a full
burn of the booster, a successful catch of the booster by the so-called chopsticks back at the launch site. Pretty incredible feat. This is the
most powerful rocket that's ever been launched. The Falcon Super Heavy.
Unfortunately, Starship, on the way uphill, made it almost all the way to the end of -- it's burned its trajectory before something went wrong and it
either burned up and/or exploded. And as you mentioned, Elon Musk says that telemetry seems to indicate there was an oxygen leak, you know, the
oxidizer, which would cause that kind of a catastrophic failure.
But you know, this is what he's doing. He's testing, breaking things, learning from it and then fixing it and testing again. And this is the
fastest, most efficient way to build something new, which is pretty incredible.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and I loved the catch. Let's not take anything away from the success of that catch. But my concern is the -- and the headline looks
bad, the grounding of Starship until they work out what went wrong. How quickly do you think they can do that? Because clearly, they want to be
launching rockets again as soon as possible.
CHIAO: Well, sure. Oh, absolutely. And you'll recall the very first Starship flight test, we had almost full duration burn of the booster. And
then, after separate -- actually, it didn't even separate, the whole vehicle exploded. And so, then the -- there had to be an investigation with
FAA oversight and sign off.
This is a similar thing. You know, it's not as extreme as what happened during the first flight test. But once you have a mishap, the FAA is going
to insist on an investigation, which SpaceX will lead, and they're very well qualified to do that, and there it's in their vested interest to
figure out what went wrong, talk to the FAA, get their experts to agree, and then they'll be, you know, cleared to go off and fly flight number
eight. So, we're looking forward to that.
CHATTERLEY: I mean, there was some reports, and I've not verified them, of property damage in Turks and Caicos, because obviously things were falling
out of the sky. And obviously, I mentioned that some flights had to be diverted temporarily. And we know that the agency closes certain parts of
airspace for space launches.
But do you worry that we're going to see this more? I mean, there was a 30 percent increase in licensed commercial space launches in fiscal year 2024.
And I think that could even double by 2028. There's going to be more launches.
CHIAO: Well, that's right. You know, the activity is only increasing in tempo. You're going to see more satellite launches, more vehicle launches.
And so, this is, you know, not out of the ordinary. When something like this happens is you're going to have some debris that falls back to Earth.
That's all been calculated and planned for. So, you know, none of this was, you know, just kind of off the cuff, if you will.
[18:55:00]
And so, yes, it was a little inconvenient. Some flights had to be diverted from their flight paths. But nobody was in any danger. This is all very
well planned out. So -- but, yes, you were going to see more launches. And with more launches, just like with more cars, you're going to see,
unfortunately, more accidents. And we're going to do everything we can, of course, in all industries to maintain as low of an accident rate as
possible and keep things as safe as possible.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Sorry about the Starship. Most spectacular rocket starburst display that we've seen for a while, even if it was accidental.
Leroy Chiao, have a great weekend, sir. Thank you.
CHIAO: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: And before we go, our breaking news this hour, Israel's full cabinet approving the ceasefire and hostage deal after hours of
deliberation. The smaller security cabinet passing the deal earlier on Friday, the vote 24 to 8 against. It's expected to begin on Sunday and
we'll see a pause in fighting in Gaza and lead to the phased release of hostages and Palestinian prisoners.
On the first day, Hamas is expected to free three female hostages. And in exchange, Israel will release 95 Palestinian prisoners. And we watch for
that. Stay with CNN for more of our breaking this hour.
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