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First Move with Julia Chatterley
China's DeepSeek Cheaper Than U.S. A.I. Models; President Trump Fires DOJ Officials; Eight Remaining Hostages to be Returned are Dead; Palestinians Allowed to Return to Northern Gaza; Scott Bessent Confirmed as U.S. Treasury Secretary; Navigating Risks and Rewards at the FII; Survivors Mark Remembering Auschwitz, 80 Years On; Jamie Oliver on Better Nutrition. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired January 27, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: It's 7:00 a.m. in Beijing, 5:00 p.m. in Guatemala City, and 6:00 p.m. here in New York. I'm Julia
Chatterley, and wherever you are in the world, this is "First Move."
And a warm welcome to "First Move." And here's today's need to know. Chatbot Challenge. China's DeepSeek, says it has a ChatGPT competitor for a
fraction of the cost. Big spending, U.S. tech stocks taking a hit. Investigating the investigators. President Trump fires Justice Department
officials who worked on cases against him. Auschwitz anniversary survivors and world leaders marking 80 years since the liberation of the Nazi
concentration camp. And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE OLIVER, CHEF, RESTAURANTEUR, AND COOKBOOK AUTHOR AND AUTHOR, "SIMPLE JAMIE": Getting food right in schools. You know, teaching kids how to cook
10 recipes to save their life will save you more money than you could ever dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: -- chef and author Jamie Oliver's message to Donald Trump as he continues his career long battle for better nutrition. That conversation
and plenty more coming up.
But first, turbulence in the tech world. Chinese startup DeepSeek unveiling its A.I. model called R1 developed at a fraction of the cost, they say, of
popular U.S. A.I. models like ChatGPT. The company says it spent less than $6 million to train its models and without relying on cutting-edge computer
chips.
Now, this comes, of course, as Chinese firms continue to face U.S. export restrictions on advanced chips. The DeepSeek A.I. assistant has now become
the most downloaded app on Apple's App Store in the United States.
Alarming news for chip makers, of course. Shares of NVIDIA and Broadcom plunging around 17 percent. Wow, take a look at that.
TechRadar editor at large Lance Ulanoff joins us now. Lance, it's clearly raising questions about the whopping spending that's being pledged and
promised and carried out by some of the big U.S. tech companies. For me, this is a question of both trust and sense that a one-year-old Chinese
startup can spend a fraction of the amount of big U.S. competitors and come up with a superior product. Skeptic or not?
LANCE ULANOFF, EDITOR AT LARGE, TECHRADAR: I'm very much a skeptic. I mean, look, consider the source. All right. This is a Chinese company. They don't
have to tell us the truth. Sure. They say they've spent $5.6 million. And I'm sure that was -- they thought about that quite a bit, because, you
know, U.S. companies are spending billions, literally billions of dollars to develop their models. I think that Meta said they'll spend like $65
billion this year. And, you know, we have a $500 dollar investment from the White House in opening a Stargate plan.
So, you know, a lot of money is flowing around here in the U.S. just to build models. And so, along comes this Chinese company that's been around
for maybe a year. And this R1, this DeepSeek R1's been out for maybe a month. And yes, they spent just a little bit to make something that's as
good, or maybe a little bit better than OpenAI's ChatGPT.
But the thing is, we really don't know. We really don't know how they developed this. We don't know how they train the models. And I don't think
we can just take them at their word.
CHATTERLEY: I think the other message here perhaps so is don't underestimate China, but perhaps we need to have a little bit more faith in
U.S. tech firms in particular that are focused on this and perhaps that there are lofty levels in share prices at this moment. Do you think it's a
warning shot, though, in what we know is an arms race in A.I.?
ULANOFF: Yes. Well, this is an incredibly competitive space. Just here in the U.S., it's incredibly competitive. But, of course, you know, we live in
a connected world. You know, nothing happens in a vacuum and we know that it is foolish to underestimate Chinese technological capabilities.
I mean, just think about how they're constantly attacking our infrastructure, you know, through cyber-attacks, you know, that's not
something that happens by accident. They know what they're doing. You know, and we don't know exactly how they develop this A.I., we don't know what
chips they actually have out there that they've used. We don't know how much money they've spent.
But the reality is, I have to agree that people should have a little bit more faith in the U.S. companies. You know, I've been doing this for a long
time. I've been following the tech industry for decades. And the hallmark of A.I. development, it is exponentially faster than anything I've ever
seen before. And that is happening right here in the U.S.
[18:05:00]
Instead of 18-month development cycles, we're seeing three-month upgrades, massive upgrades. And one thing to keep in mind that I know everybody's
super excited about this R1, but it's actually not as good or as flexible, you know, as the products that are coming out of the U.S. It doesn't even
have multimodal capabilities, which means that you can show it photos, show it videos, use your voice, those things don't even work.
CHATTERLEY: It's also Chinese. So, if you've got a problem with TikTok, which obviously stores and shields its data in the United States, then, oh,
boy, have you got a problem with this. My brilliant A.I. guru producer, Inwuk (ph), asked it for nicknames of Xi Jinping and it was old, it was
beyond its scope. And let's talk about something else. The end.
ULANOFF: Yes. I mean it's real -- I mean, I don't know why people think this thing's going to stick around. I mean, they've done nothing to shield
the data from, you know, the CCP. They'll look at anything you put in there because it's all happening there in China.
If you open the app in in the app store, you will see the name DeepSeek and they will see under it Chinese characters, because it is a Chinese app.
This is very different than TikTok, which actually did the work to move all of the data to the U.S., all the people that are working out in the U.S.
It's not like that at all.
This is -- you're putting in prompts. If you put in prompts about yourself, guess who's looking at those? I mean, really, this is actually an app you
should not trust.
CHATTERLEY: I'm not one for giving investment advice, but this does have a buy on dip feel about it. Anyway, we run out of time. Great to chat to you,
sir. Thank you. Lance Ulanoff there, TechRadar editor at large.
ULANOFF: It's a pleasure.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you, sir. All right. We're also following two major stories from Washington. The U.S. Justice Department firing more than a
dozen officials who worked on the criminal investigations into Donald Trump. This comes as the Trump administration launches an investigation
into prosecutors who oversaw the criminal cases against January 6th defendants.
Meanwhile, his administration has also launched a nationwide immigration enforcement operation, arresting nearly 1,000 people on Sunday alone. And
Colombia now avoiding a trade war with the United States by agreeing to accept deported migrants. President Trump threatened 25 percent tariffs on
all Colombian imports shortly after the country blocked two U.S. military planes carrying deportees from landing over the weekend.
Stephen Collinson joins us now. I mean, these are two really huge stories. Is this, on the first one, Trump fulfilling a promise that he made before
the election to investigate the investigators? Whatever you think of those investigations one could argue these were simply people carrying out their
jobs and what they were told to do.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Exactly. And some of these prosecutors that were fired from the Justice Department, they've not just
been reassigned, they've been kicked out of federal service completely. Remember the Republican claim that the Justice Department was weaponized by
the Biden administration, this does look very much like the same thing.
The investigation into the investigators specifically targets one case whereby about 250 January the 6th rioters were charged with obstructing an
official proceeding, that was endorsed all the way up through the courts until the Supreme Court, the conservative Supreme Court, overruled it and
said it was -- the statute was too broadly applied.
There was no suggestion that these investigators were doing something that was wrong or that they had broken the law. So, I think this is raising a
lot of alarms in Washington, as have many other things over the last week about Trump's intent to pursue his vow of retribution for which he believes
he has a mandate.
CHATTERLEY: It's been such a flow, a flood of developments in news over the past week, it's tough to keep track of them, it's tough to report on them.
I think the fascinating one for me, and I mentioned it was what we're seeing with immigration and specifically the use of the threat, at least,
of tariffs and sanctions.
Not only have we gone from a situation where Colombia is not willing to accept a plane from the United States carrying migrants landing in
Colombia, they're now sending their own planes to collect the migrants in order to avoid the tariffs and sanctions.
Stephen, this is only going to embolden President Trump, because the suggestion is if you're very, very focused on tackling immigration and
sending the message that you're doing so, the threats work.
COLLINSON: Well, yes. And I think this is going to make the people in the White House who believe that terrorists are not just an economic tool, but
can be used as a hammer in foreign policy, they're going to, I think, be even more enthusiastic about doing so as they think about bigger economies
like Canada and Mexico.
This was a frantic afternoon and evening on Sunday when Colombia decided it wasn't going to accept two military flights from the United States.
Immediately, Trump came out and says, OK, you're going to get emergency tariffs across the board of 25 percent. In a week, they'll be 50 percent.
This was a clear case of how Trump likes to use the power of the United States and its economy against a smaller country.
[18:10:00]
I think we're seeing this across the board. In his pressure on Greenland, on Denmark, for example, he wants to buy Greenland on the Panama Canal
issue. This, I think, is something the White House would be very happy about, because the impact of it was that Trump looked tough, and he got
another country to back down, and that sent a signal throughout Latin America to all of these countries where the United States wants to send
undocumented migrants.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. And that's the key. The message that it sends to everyone else about the stance that you're going to take on negotiating this type of
things, be they economics or be they politics. Stephen Collinson, thank you, sir.
COLLINSON: Thanks.
CHATTERLEY: Meanwhile, deportation flights have been arriving in Honduras and Guatemala. Some Latin American leaders say the numbers have not
actually increased under President Trump. Guatemala's vice president saying her country's relationship with the U.S. is fluid. And her focus is now on
finding jobs for new arrivals. David Culver has this report from Guatemala City.
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, the vice president stressing that she wants to continue communications to be strong
between the U.S. and Guatemala. She said that she's aware, obviously, that Secretary Rubio will be making a visit here in the coming days. And at the
same time, she pushed back that there have been any changes since President Trump took office, especially with the number of migrants coming into
Guatemala. She wanted to stress that it's been the same and perhaps even down a bit at times compared with the Biden administration. So, that was
significant. However, the change is that military aircraft are being allowed to land here in Guatemala. And she says that will not change.
Now, one thing we got a bit of an insight on was how those migrants are being returned here. And it's interesting because we spoke to a group that
took off from Louisiana and many of them had kind of spanned anywhere from a few weeks to a few months being held by immigration officials in the U.S.
And we caught up with one who says he was caught trespassing, but that was 10 years ago and only now has it really caught up with him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: You have a four-year-old daughter and a four-month-old son.
FIDEL AMBROSIO, DEPORTED TO GUATEMALA: Yes. Yes. I left there.
CULVER: And they're in -- with your wife in the U.S.?
AMBROSIO: Yes. And I'm scared. I was (INAUDIBLE) they say they have to go - - you know, go with the criminal. But we're not a criminal, you know.
CULVER: But you have a trespassing conviction?
AMBROSIO: Yes, but it's -- for me it's not like that at all.
CULVER: To you it's not as serious a crime?
AMBROSIO: Yes, I'm not --
CULVER: Where do you think you'll go back?
AMBROSIO: I have to go back, for sure.
CULVER: You'll find a way back?
AMBROSIO: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: That was one perspective. He was obviously determined to go back. He says even if President Trump is still president, and even if it means
crossing illegally. However, several others we met with said they have no interest in returning to the U.S. One woman, who is 43, left behind her
children and grandchildren in the U.S. and returned here in tears, just happy to be back in Guatemala after spending time in immigration detention.
And she said for her, it's now a matter of just trying to figure out how to resettle her life back in Guatemala.
That's going to be the biggest challenge though, because you've got people who fled this country, many of them during the 30 plus years of civil war
and are trying to figure out not only had a step back into a place that, yes, has been able to figure out its security situation and to enhance it,
but economically there are still very few opportunities. So, they're trying to navigate that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: Our thanks to David Culver there. Now, Israel, sharing new details about some of the hostages set to be released by Hamas. A
government spokesperson says eight of the 33 hostages who are expected to be returned during the first phase of the ceasefire deal are dead. The
exact causes of death are unknown. The Israeli government blames Hamas, and Hamas has not commented on this publicly. Israel says the other hostages
are alive.
Meanwhile, Israel is finally allowing thousands of Palestinians to return to their homes in Northern Gaza for the first time in months. The journey
was delayed though by around 48 hours after disagreements between Israel and Hamas over the hostages. The return home for many Palestinians will
likely lead to more heartbreak.
Israeli airstrikes have leveled much of Northern Gaza leaving the area with limited access to water, power, and basic supplies. Jeremy Diamond has
more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, the masses of people trekking up Gaza's coastal road are not being forced to flee,
they are returning home.
The Palestinian people are going back to their homes, this man shouts, announcing his joy to anyone who will listen. It's a great happiness. We
feel like we can fly.
After being displaced for months on end, tens of thousands of Palestinians are finally returning to Northern Gaza, shielded by the guarantees of a
six-week ceasefire.
[18:15:00]
This river of humanity flows for miles and miles, underscoring the magnitude of the last 15 months of war.
For many, like Eyad al Masri (ph), their journey began in Southern Gaza, taking down their tents they hoped forever.
I'm taking these four bags and going back to my house, Eyad (ph) says. I don't know if it is still standing or not, but I'm going back to Beit
Hanoun.
People quickly crowd around the few buses heading north, babies and belongings hoisted with urgency. Others carry what they can, taking their
chances on foot. Trudging through this uneven coastal road, young and old alike are determined to push past fatigue and return home.
For the first of many, that moment came shortly after 9:00 a.m., crossing an abandoned Israeli checkpoint where mass Hamas militants now stand watch.
Israel agreed to open the road to Northern Gaza only after resolving a two- day dispute with Hamas over the fate of an Israeli hostage, Arbel Yehud. Hamas now set to release her alongside the captive Israeli soldier, Agam
Berger, and a third hostage on Thursday.
Back in Gaza, this is what most are returning to, bombed out buildings and heaps of rubble now line the streets. Even amid the destruction, there is
joy as family members separated by war reunite.
Thank God, Motaz (ph) says, as he kisses his mother and embraces his daughter. He hasn't seen them in 10 months.
Amid the reunions, there are also tears. As people set foot on the land they call home once again. I'm crying right now out of happiness, this man
says. I don't want anything except to enter my homeland.
The enormity of the destruction in Gaza prompting President Trump to call for moving Palestinians out of Gaza.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'd like Egypt to take people, and I'd like Georgia to take people. I can -- you're talking about probably a million
and a half people. And we just clean out that whole thing.
DIAMOND (on camera): Among those who camped out for days near the checkpoint to Northern Gaza, waiting for it to open, Trump's idea is
quickly rejected. We say to Trump, no, and a million and one nos, we will stay here. We will stay in Gaza, he says, even if it is a pile of rubble.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: And just in, President Donald Trump's nominee for Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, has been confirmed by the U.S. Senate. The vote
was 68 to 29. The billionaire advised President Trump on economic policy on the campaign trail. He's also the founder of the hedge fund, Key Square
Capital Management, and he's also making history as the first openly gay man to become treasury secretary. He'll have to deal with pressing issues
like enacting Trump's tariffs, addressing the debt limit, and working with Congress to extend Trump's 2017 tax cuts.
All right. Straight ahead, from Davos in the desert to the shores of Miami, the Future Investment Initiative prepares for its big Florida gathering.
Its CEO joins us for a talk about global risks and rewards during the new Trump era.
And later in the show, celebrity chef Jamie Oliver offers some prime cuts of advice for the U.S. president and plenty more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. In today's "Money Move," deep losses on Wall Street after the stunning news from DeepSeek. Concern that DeepSeek's A.I.
model would compete with Silicon Valley's weighted heavily on U.S. tech stocks with the NASDAQ falling, as you can see there, over 3 percent.
As we mentioned earlier, NVIDIA shares were hit especially hard, falling almost 17 percent and the equivalent wiping out nearly $600 billion worth
of market value. One of the largest one-day losses for a company, in fact, in market history. But you've got to put this in context, stocks like
NVIDIA have been priced basically for perfection. Remember, it's up almost 2,000 percent over the past five years. They're going to be vulnerable to
news like this on DeepSeek and other Chinese developments in particular.
Now, big U.S. energy names like Constellation, Vistra and Vernova, excuse me, were also hit hard on fears that a more efficient A.I. model will mean
less electricity manned from A.I. farms in the U.S. So, meaning less data centers.
The DeepSeek news also comes at the start of a critical week for tech with companies linked to the A.I. boom, Microsoft, Apple, and Meta all reporting
profits. So, we'll listen to what their CEOs have to say.
Now, making sure the transformative power of artificial intelligence can be harnessed for good is one of the key goals of the Future Investment
Initiative and its CEO, Richard Attias.
The FII was founded more than eight years ago and dubbed Davos in the desert. It's since expanded from its Saudi roots to become an independent
global force for action and solutions, leading to deals and investment pledges of some $130 billion. The next summit will be held in Miami,
Florida next month.
And I sat down with Richard earlier and we discussed the new at U.S. administration, disruption of existing institutions investing in the United
States, and of course A.I. He said no one should have been shocked by the DeepSeek news.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ATTIAS, CEO, FUTURE INVESTMENT INITIATIVE: I'm not surprised. I think no one should be surprised. China is a country which should not be
ignored. But as of today, it's too early to really react on what is going on.
I think definitely China is part of this race about A.I. It was always a case. We have these two superpowers. United States of America will and
continue to be will continue to be the country of innovation. And also, China, even if they create this amazing technology, they would be
struggling on selling this technology in Europe and even in the United States of America because of the ban, because of the, I would say, concerns
that European and American, in fact, the western world, we have to include and to deal with Chinese product and Chinese technology. So, this is why I
think we should calm down.
CHATTERLEY: The next FII summit perfectly placed, I think, in a few weeks' time in Miami, not just because obviously we have a new U.S. president, but
he certainly set the tone, I think, in the last week, it's only been a week. What I'm hearing, certainly from investors is, there's an optimism
about investing, certainly, in the United States, provided you understand you're playing by this government's rules. What are you hearing?
ATTIAS: When I started FII almost 10 years ago, we're watching a big shift from the west to the east.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
ATTIAS: Since few months, we see a shift now from the east to the west.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
ATTIAS: So, your point is extremely valid. We see many investors, global investors, who want to invest in America. So, the brand United States of
America now is becoming extremely popular. It's a fact, huh? Nothing to do with politics. I'm not doing politics here. I'm just saying what I see and
the request we are getting.
[18:25:00]
So, for the FII conference, which will happen in Miami end of February, we already are almost oversold because we are getting a lot of requests from
global players from even Asia, believe it or not.
CHATTERLEY: To be here.
ATTIAS: To be here. So, almost all the sectors wants to have a piece of what I will call the cake of potential opportunities to invest in America.
Because we should not forget, United States of America will host soon, the Olympics, will host the World Cup, will host many big global events, which
always have an impact on the local economies.
Point number two, what we see is that A.I. is at the center of all conversations, even if you take something like food security or real
estate, A.I. is part of this conversation. So, we expect to have many conversation about A.I. and we're very happy that will be hosting the big
leadership of Oracle, of many other tech companies, which would be part of Google and so far and so on. So, it would be a great moment.
We are hoping to have many members of the new cabinet, the U.S. cabinet because we need to hear from them, not only what is a vision, but what it
will be doing, because it's time now to implement. People are looking for implementation, implementation in terms of policies, implementation in
terms of decision, implementation in terms of mergers, acquisition.
And we see three main areas where personally, I think, we'll see big changes in the next 12 months. Definitely A.I., but healthcare.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
ATTIAS: Healthcare in general. I'm not just talking about biotech, I'm talking about longevity, preventive medicine, predictive medicine, but also
traditional health. Personally, I think we see a lot of investment and potentially I could be wrong. Some mergers and acquisition in this sector.
I think it's a big sector.
CHATTERLEY: You focus on health care. You also focus on sustainability, the energy transition. We know that vitally thing -- vital things. You don't
want to get into the politics. But at a time when the policies are pushing certainly in the U.S. away from a focus on climate and potentially pulling
them out of the World Health Organization, how do these, if at all, impact the way that you choose to invest or how you invest? When you're saying
there's excitement and opportunity, but the big headlines are going in the other direction.
ATTIAS: Yes, I think we should read very well and carefully what these decisions in terms of policies are about.
CHATTERLEY: Right.
ATTIAS: Leaving the Paris Accord doesn't mean we don't care about climate change. It's my reading. You cannot ignore the consequences of climate
change. When you see the fires in Los Angeles, you cannot ignore the floods and the tsunamis which are happening almost everywhere in the world,
including in the United States of America.
We cannot ignore the potential next pandemic. We cannot ignore what is happening in risks in terms of health care and the fact that we -- or that
United States will of not support any more financially the World Health Organization it doesn't mean we're not concerned by health.
My reading is that the question that the new administration is asking is how efficient are these international organization. And they have a point.
To be honest, they have a point.
CHATTERLEY: Disruption can be a good thing. Shaking things --
ATTIAS: They have a point because this is what I'm hearing everywhere in the world, which is are the U.N. efficient? And this is not new.
CHATTERLEY: Your compass. I want to talk about this because I think this ties all the threads together. Cost of living, quality of life is what most
people are prioritizing and I think struggling with. The majority of people think their country is corrupt. There's fears about digital preparedness.
There's fears about health care costs.
You understand, I think, why citizens of the world are responding to a nationalist sentiment from their leaders, even at a time when you're saying
the solutions will be found on a global basis. So, it's -- I guess, how do we re-establish trust and the accountability, whether it's money or
anything else?
ATTIAS: Citizens are still extremely concerned by the cost of living. They are starting to be extremely concerned about their healthcare systems and
definitely climate change, sustainability and last but not least, governance.
Trust on their leaders. The citizens of the world from all over countries, they want strong leadership, which is sometime bringing us to populism.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
ATTIAS: They want strong leadership because they don't trust anymore their current, I would say, governments. They definitely want to have access to
health, which is just matter of dignity. I think it's our duty as leaders, not only the political leaders, but business leaders, to be sure that
everyone will have access to health.
We are launching a big initiative at the FI Institute, which is health for all, which definitely we want corporations, we want governments, we want
pharma groups to commit to give access to health to everyone, including preventive, predictive medicine, which will help to reduce the numbers of
disease and disease that we have to face and to solve.
[18:30:00]
CHATTERLEY: Bottom line, we're not doing this without lots and lots of money, and that's what I like about what you've done. I think that the
total sum of pledges and commitments deals is $130 billion so far?
ATTIAS: Correct. And invest with purpose.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
ATTIAS: This is the main theme of FII Miami at the end of February, it's invest with purpose. So, we need really to invest for good.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: Richard Attias there. Thanks to him. Now, coming up after the break, there are fewer survivors of the Nazi concentration camps as each
year passes. But many of those that remain came together today, marking 80 years since the liberation of Auschwitz. Their message to the world is
next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Survivors, family members and world leaders gathered to mark 80 years since the liberation of Auschwitz, the notorious Nazi concentration
camp. Over a million people were murdered there between 1940 and 1945. And with the recent rise in anti-Semitism, the few survivors who remain are
urging the world to never forget. From Auschwitz, Melissa Bell reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Their numbers dwindling, but their resolve intact. Survivors, supported by their
families, making the difficult journey back to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the largest and deadliest of the Nazi camps.
JONA LAKS, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: At my advanced age, it's really courageous to come back, I must say it. I didn't want to, but it's necessary. It's
necessary for the world to know.
BELL (voice-over): Jona Laks was just 14 when she was brought by cattle car to Auschwitz with her twin sister Miriam and their older sister Chana (ph)
in 1944. By then, most of the more than 1 million people who pass through these infamous gates had been sent straight to their deaths in the gas
chambers.
[18:35:00]
But Jona and Miriam say they were spared by the notorious Nazi doctor Josef Mengele.
LAKS: Obviously, we're satisfied to get an additional pair of twins for his notorious experiments.
BELL: Were you and Miriam experimented on?
LAKS: We were. Of course.
BELL (voice-over): The serial number tattooed on her arm may have faded, but the memories of the survivors gathered at Auschwitz on Monday were
razor sharp.
TOVA FRIEDMAN, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: I held on tightly to my mother's hand in the dark cattle car for countless hours while the cries and the prayers of
so many desperate women permeated my soul and haunt me to this day.
BELL (voice-over): Eighty years after the camp's liberation, this may be the last time that the voices of survivors are heard at Auschwitz.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Those who lived to see freedom, there were really hardly any, so few, and now, there is only a handful
left.
BELL (voice-over): It will soon fall to others, academics, monuments, and museums, to make sure the enormity of what happened here isn't forgotten.
BELL: How important is it that the world marks this and understands what happened?
LAKS: Perhaps it would hopefully remind the world that human life is sacred and should be honored.
BELL (voice-over): Melissa Bel, CNN, Auschwitz-Birkenau.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: And welcome back to "First Move." Jamie Oliver is not only one of the world's most popular chefs and restauranteurs, he's also a man on a
mission who, throughout his long career, has stressed the huge benefits that come from healthier eating, particularly for young people.
Oliver shot to fame with his show, "The Naked Chef," back in 1999, and he's since appeared in numerous TV series and has written dozens of books. His
latest book is called "Simply Jamie" and it's filled with fast, simple, and nutritious recipes for people on the go.
[18:40:00]
I sit down with him to discuss his passion for food, his lifelong fight for better nutrition, and more accurate food labelling, by the way, too, and as
well as his message to President Trump, who, by the way, was President- Elect Trump when the interview was recorded. I started by asking him, though, what's more important, price, saving time, or health and wellbeing?
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE OLIVER, CHEF, RESTAURANTEUR, AND COOKBOOK AUTHOR AND AUTHOR, "SIMPLE JAMIE": The true answer generally based around the American and British
public is what they say and what they do are very different things.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: And -- but the highest priority is convenience.
CHATTERLEY: So, they talk about clean eating, but they don't mean it.
OLIVER: Yes. If you're talking about health, ethics, environment, price, convenience is first.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: Even over price. The poorest --
CHATTERLEY: Even overpriced today.
OLIVER: Completely. This is a mass, this is not a little feeling, this is basket data, which is utterly true. So, like what you will do is you'll
find people that are financially challenged buying things that have been either prepped or cooked for them and they'll reheat them rather than just
buy a potato and make mash.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: You know, so, there's -- a cook would have a logic of going, I'll make mash, it's cheap. But yes, like certainly from my point of view, all
the most exciting things I've ever eaten have come from the poorest communities and communities of duckers and divers like the healthiest. I've
spent two and a half years going around the world to the places where people live the most longest and productive lives, none of it's fillet,
steak, and foie gras. You know, it's all humble food that you can get in any American supermarket.
Obviously, I love food, but it's not just the food or the flavor, it's like if you can gently make it a part of your life, whoever you are and whatever
lifestyle you've got, like having that culinary dexterity, physically, like touch, feel, peel, squash, bash, rip, rub, grill, you know, or just
understanding sweet, sour, salty, bitter, or knowing different veggies and not being frightened of them. A lot of kids are frightened of vegetables
because they've never seen them.
Kids ain't genetically born to eat nuggets, pizza, and burger, which is what they were prefaced to. Like, it's called marketing. Marketing ain't
charity. Marketing works.
CHATTERLEY: Jamie, the educator is coming out and someone that cares about nutrition, who I think over the years has made that very clear, that
believes, I think, that cooking is a life skill.
OLIVER: Honestly, like, getting kids to see where food comes from, grow stuff, and how it affects their body when they eat it, is magical. And yes,
so I just kind of think like modern day life kind of accelerates in this direction. The uberization of food and choices and convenience and the
gamification of that is really interesting.
But actually, if you really look at it, and if we're all really honest, like teachers in elementary school see your kids more than the parents.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: For sure, most of the time. And everyone's invested into the system of school. So, as far as your -- you know, your bang for your buck is
concerned, like, supporting teachers, loving them more, having a bit more clarity on that, and instead of looking at healthcare and saying, oh, it's
just a healthcare problem, it's also an education problem, and actually there's so much we can do at school.
CHATTERLEY: Are you going to speak to the president-elect? I feel like there's an opportunity here for a bigger discussion in the U.S.
OLIVER: Oh, I would love to, yes, if I had a chance.
CHATTERLEY: OK.
OLIVER: I mean, do you -- I mean, I wasn't under the impression that health and nutrition was going to be a big priority. We all know it should be. But
I mean, listen, from my point of view, I'll talk to anyone, 100 percent, about --
CHATTERLEY: Quick message to the president-elect?
OLIVER: To Mr. Donald Trump?
CHATTERLEY: Yes. To Donald. (INAUDIBLE).
OLIVER: Yes, yes. Mr. Trump, I hope you're well. I would say, if you truly are looking for a happier, healthier, more productive America, which it is
going to thrive and be innovative and cost less in health care genuinely and have less chaos amongst communities, we need to get our kids closer to
the mud and food and where it comes from and how it affects their body.
You know, getting food right in schools, you know, teaching kids how to cook 10 recipes to save their life will save you more money than you could
ever dream. I've actually got research that can prove that even for free school lunches, you know, you can save billions over a 10-year period.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: So -- but it was the last line that didn't quite sell it. It's over a 10-year period. Everyone wants stuff to happen in three to four years.
CHATTERLEY: They want instant response. I know.
OLIVER: So, I think we have to start doing stuff now. And so, joining the dots is really like getting the daily mile in schools, getting kids to
move, teaching every child when they leave school at 16, like 10 recipes to save their life, being truthful about labeling and front of pack labeling.
Don't allow American food producers to lie.
[18:45:00]
CHATTERLEY: Your connecting dots will make enemies.
OLIVER: Just don't lie. No, no. I don't think so. I think it's truth, transparency, and don't lie. America is perfectly capable to make
incredible things. It has some of the best farmers in the world in this country.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: And it has a lot of technology and capacity, but it is still the wild west and truth is a currency that's still in fairly low supply.
It's really interesting because we've just come out of an election in both of our countries. The most powerful vote we all has is where we spend our
dollar. And after paying for our mortgage, the second biggest place that most of us spend our money is our home and food.
CHATTERLEY: And food, yes.
OLIVER: So, you know, if it's truth -- if truth is on the packaging of food, guess what happens? You know, people aren't as stupid as everyone
keeps saying. Like, if you give people good, clear information, often, not always, but often, they make good choices. So, I think just having that
truth just helps the good guys to win more. If they win more, they grow more. And if they grow more, like just everything just gets a little bit
better. And this obsession for using weird chemicals or additives or --
CHATTERLEY: Preservatives.
OLIVER: -- the strange stuff that ends up being carcinogenic or causing respiratory disease here. You know what I mean? Like all this weirdness
that happens in the food industry, you know, particularly in America. Sorry to be rude. I'm not being rude, but it's just the truth. Like, you know,
it's --
CHATTERLEY: I think loads of people here want answers too. I think, you know, (INAUDIBLE) hear. People want answers to understand what they're
eating and what they're not.
OLIVER: The public don't want to be lied to.
CHATTERLEY: No.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: My interview with Jamie Oliver continues after the break. The gregarious gourmet gives us his thoughts on fame and the importance of luck
in one's career. Plus, the love of his life, his, quote, "rock and Elvis Presley obsessed wife, Jools." That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to more of our special "First Move" interview with Jamie Oliver. In part two of our chat, the celebrated chef talks about the
pressures of fame, his amorous advice for Valentine's Day coming up, plus the secret sauce that's kept him going all these years, his beloved wife,
Jools. Listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OLIVER: My career only started for a bit of luck. I wasn't even supposed to work the night that I got seen in the background of someone else's
documentary. I wasn't even supposed to be on TV. So, the fact that I, you know, can work with cameramen, editors, tell stories, and if it's an
important story, the public get upset about it and get passionate about it, and then have a campaign where they can do something or vote for something
or press a button on something, which forces change is beautiful, because I think everyone feels very disempowered with, does my voice count, does my
dollar count? And my answer would be yes.
CHATTERLEY: I don't think your career is about luck.
[18:50:00]
OLIVER: Yes, they all say that, but I don't know. You know, there's some pretty profound sliding doors moments for me that meant that I would never
be in that ether. And that -- how could those things have happened if -- you know, I don't know. People say I should have ended up on TV, but I --
CHATTERLEY: Advice to people watching today, whether it's to be a chef or to be on TV or to fulfill a dream? How do you make it happen?
OLIVER: Well, first of all, I'd say, like the idea of becoming a famous TV chef, like, I wouldn't advise it. I have to work very hard to legitimize
losing lots of normal things in my life and the effects that has on me, my family, and my kids.
CHATTERLEY: Like what?
OLIVER: Well, like when you're in the public eye, being a sort of celebrity in an old fashioned sense or even a modern day sense is not healthy, it's
not good for kids, it's not -- you know, it might be exciting if you're a teenager in the beginning.
CHATTERLEY: Everybody wants to be an influencer today.
OLIVER: Yes, it's -- I would just -- my -- if I did it all again, and I've said this before, and the public always, because they don't listen, they
get upset because they think I'm being ungrateful, I'm not, I'm very grateful, but if I did it all again, like, my dream originally was to just
go and work in a pub, and have the best pub in the world, and serve 80 customers for lunch, and maybe 100 for dinner, and like, be in the
community, and just graft, and you know, make enough money to have a nice holiday, and have a half decent house, I'm all game for that. Like --
CHATTERLEY: Is that the end game?
OLIVER: Yes. Well, I just think it's enough to be really happy and focus on the things in life which are really, really important, which is like deep,
engaging relationships with your friends and family and community, and not having like mad, mad stuff happen.
CHATTERLEY: I want to talk about the book very briefly.
OLIVER: Very --
CHATTERLEY: Best recipe for date night? Valentine's Day is coming up.
OLIVER: Cooking anything is romantic.
CHATTERLEY: That's true.
OLIVER: Anything. The fact that someone can be bothered to like what time you come in round, tunes, light down. It could be -- it doesn't have to
anything to do with cost. It doesn't have to be flashy. I think anything delicious and that creates a moment is beautiful.
Obviously, you know, you might not want something that's got spaghetti and you're slapping yourself around with like sauce all over the place, like
you might not want something super spicy if things are going to get spicy.
CHATTERLEY: Yes.
OLIVER: But also, it's quite nice to have things that you can share and tear and pass. But look, I'm not really an expert because I've been with
the same girl since I'm 18. And if I had to date again, I'd be rubbish. I wouldn't know what to do. I mean, the food would be good, but I'd be all
over the place. But --
CHATTERLEY: That's -- actually, that's a brilliant segue. Can we please talk about Jools? Because we and the team were talking and those Brits
among us in particular sort of know Jools --
OLIVER: Jools is wife, by the way.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. 25th wedding anniversary this year.
OLIVER: Yes. Yes.
CHATTERLEY: That's something.
OLIVER: Yes, it's a quarter of a century, I'll have you know.
CHATTERLEY: Barely feels like it.
OLIVER: Well, we got -- we were going to -- we got -- the plan was to get married again. We went on a road trip, first time away from the kids for 15
years. We -- and we went to Las Vegas and Palm Springs,. And Jools arranged to get married by Elvis at the place where Elvis got married. So, the woman
is obsessed.
So, it's 25 years next -- this year. So --
CHATTERLEY: What are you going to do this year?
OLIVER: Run for the hills, I think. She'll have me blimmin getting married again. And guess who's going to be there? Another version of Elvis.
CHATTERLEY: But we all loveJools, even though we barely saw her on "The Naked Chef." Tell me about this, because you were like, hot new chef, and
you weren't allowed a girlfriend, officially.
OLIVER: Back in the day, Jools wasn't allowed to exist on "The Naked Chef." And I think the first or second series, because the -- my commissioners or
the management at the BBC were sort of, I guess you'd say like middle aged female executives. And they're like, make him single, make him single.
So, then Jools came out. But I mean, I think she's always been there, but always been very much in the background and she hasn't tried to sort of
steal the limelight and --
CHATTERLEY: You described her as your rock.
OLIVER: Yes. No, she's an amazing woman. I mean, she drives me mad, but she's absolutely amazing.
CHATTERLEY: Do you drive her mad?
OLIVER: Probably.
CHATTERLEY: More mad?
OLIVER: Yes. I mean, we're completely yin and yang. How it works, I do not know. But --
CHATTERLEY: Five children later.
OLIVER: Yes, five kids later. She would have had more if she could have.
CHATTERLEY: How would you describe yourself?
OLIVER: Very -- you can get a few different Jamie's. On one side --
CHATTERLEY: Oh -- gone?
OLIVER: We could go out and have a few drinks, and you go, he's a -- but he's a complete idiot. Like, he's literally, like, that joke was a very lo-
fi joke. It wasn't very -- it wasn't a great joke, but he was -- he seemed to be quite excited about it. And then one minute you'll be like, oh, my
God, he's really geeky. He's talking about molecules and genetics and like, what -- he hasn't stopped talking about it for half an hour.
And then the other side, I'll be quite deep and. emotional and sort of nostalgic and sentimental. So, there's a few Jamie's out there. And I quite
enjoy it. It's quite a nice ride. But I think my kids think, you know, they obviously get to see every shade of me and they just tend to roll their
eyes quite a lot. And I tried to teach them how cool their dad is and they just don't seem to see my potential.
[18:55:00]
CHATTERLEY: I think you're pretty cool.
OLIVER: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: I would say you're no ordinary chef.
OLIVER: Oh, thank you. Well, I try.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHATTERLEY: Our thanks to Jamie Oliver there.
And finally, today is my last day at CNN. So, this is a very heartfelt thank you to you for watching. A thank you to my team, who are all amazing.
And to all those who've championed and supported me over the years. And also, to some truly wonderful colleagues, both past and present.
Parting, as they say, is such sweet sorrow until I remember there's always social media. Good social media, of course. Truly, I cannot wait to begin
my next adventure. Next. And I'll see you all very soon. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
