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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Parents Of Tye Nichols React To Mixed Verdict; The Unusual Name-Change Push Still Under Debate After 2020; Harris Meets Arab American And Muslim Leaders In Michigan; Lawsuit Claims Doctors Delayed Abortion Care And Are To Blame For Amber Thurman's Death; Family Sues Hospital After GA Mom Died While Seeking Abortion Care; VP Candidates Talk About Amber Thurman, Abortion During Debate. Aired 8- 9a ET

Aired October 05, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: It is their first television interview since that verdict. So we'll talk about what is justice. And McCown's longspur, Townsend's solitaire, Bachmann Sparrow. You probably never heard of these, but the names have a lot to do with the debate playing out right now among some unlikely folks about so-called racial reckoning that started in 2020. Trust me, this tease will pay off. Stay with us. This all started in 2020. It's coming up later in the show.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: I'll be staying with you. Have a good show, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Thank you very much. Let's start the show.

Well, first of all, it is good to be back after a couple weeks off. But I mean, what a time to be back. Election Day, as I said, is just one month away. Israel could strike Iran at any moment. That could be a seismic event and at a sensitive time in the us presidential race.

And in this moment, Vice President Harris, she's stepping up outreach to Arab American and Muslim voters. Last night, she met with community leaders in Michigan as she's trying to shore up support with Palestinian Americans reeling from the war in Gaza. And now Lebanese Americans are distressed by the bombardment of Beirut. Both groups are concerned about U.S. support of Israel's government, and both groups make up a critical demographic, specifically in the battleground state of Michigan.

Wa'el Alzayat is one of the community leaders who met with Vice President Harris. He's the CEO of Emgage Action. It's an organization aimed at boosting the Muslim American vote. And they have endorsed the Harris Walz campaign. Thank you so much for meeting with me this morning.

Let's talk about your meeting with Vice President Harris. It was slated the last ten minutes, went for 20. Explain what was the ask and did you get any commitments?

WA'EL ALZAYAT, CEO, EMGAGE ACTION CEO; MET WITH VP HARRIS: Thank you so much for having me on. Obviously, these presidential elections are especially difficult moment for Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, Lebanese Americans, Palestinian Americans, Israeli Americans, and they asked us to bring this war to an end. Many experts, including many community members, have warned the Biden administration that the longer this war continues in Gaza, the more likely it's going to escalate and become a regional war that could potentially drag the United States into another middle eastern war. And we are on the brink of that.

And so our first and most important ask was for the vice president in her current capacity, or should this war continue and she would win and become commander in chief, is to bring this forward to an end. That was the most important ask. The second ask was to bring immediate alleviation to both the Palestinian and Lebanese people. There are over 80,000 American citizens who are stuck in Lebanon right now and need urgent support as well as perhaps evacuation.

BLACKWELL: You told one of my colleagues that you want Harris to commit to ending the war, as you said, and that to show distance from President Biden. But she's the sitting vice president. I mean, what's the expectation of how she'll show that distance while staying loyal to the president that put her on the ticket?

ALZAYAT: Well, I'm a former State Department official. I'm very aware of the constraints on someone like the vice president, and we appreciate that. However, words matter, and we think she has done that. She is the highest U.S. official who have called for a ceasefire repeatedly. She skipped the address of Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and essentially rebuked him and his policies following her meeting with him.

So there's a lot that she can do and say, particularly regarding the need for the United States, perhaps a future Harris-Walz administration's bringing into compliance U.S. military assistance to any country, including Israel, to U.S. domestic and international humanitarian law, and really invigorating the political track to bring this war to an end through diplomatic means.

BLACKWELL: Let me read something here to you. This is from James Zogby. He's a co-founder of the Arab American Institute, also a Democratic National Committee member. He said about this meeting that, "With Lebanon in flames, they've got a bigger job. And I don't think they're ready to handle it. It's sort of like trying to sell a car to somebody with terminal cancer. What are you talking for? I have bigger things on my mind right now." Rejected an invitation to this meeting. What's your reaction to his saying, why are we talking about this?

ALZAYAT: Well, we have great respect for Jim. He's a longtime community activist and really a paragon in our Arab American community. And I understand that frustration. I myself skipped a meeting with President Biden a few months ago after I had met with him in October with other Muslim leaders. I understand the frustration, but the fact of the matter is that either Donald Trump or Kamala Harris will be commander-in-chief next year. And we truly believe that there's absolutely no pathway with Donald Trump. And our best hope to advance the anti war objectives, as well as protecting our collective rights, not to mention our democracy, is by supporting the Harris ticket. And we must be engaging with her and her team to inform them, educate them, and, yes, put pressure on them.

[08:05:36]

BLACKWELL: Yes. Your endorsement announcement, the line that stood out to me, and I read the entire announcement to prevent Trump from returning to the White House, Emgage Action is endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris and Governor Tim Walz for president and vice president.

I mean, you referenced Trump twice as many times as you referenced Kamala Harris in the announcement. James Zogby says that she was just checking a box by meeting with you. She said she'd listen. Do you feel like she was just checking a box?

ALZAYAT: I really did not. I don't think anyone in that meeting did. We met with her along with her Arab and Muslim outreach directors who've worked so hard to engage the community, but also to channel our feedback, our concerns, and our disappointment back to the campaign. We want to see more. We want to hear more. And I truly believe the vice president when she said that not only does she care, but that she will do whatever she can once she is in office to bring this war to an end. We do believe her. We have no option but to believe her and push her to fulfill that promise.

BLACKWELL: All right, Wa'el Alzayat, thank you so much for being with me.

So also this week, a measure of justice for the family of Tyre Nichols. He was beaten to death in January. It was 2023. Three former Memphis police officers could spend up to 20 years in prison after being convicted in federal court this week.

Now, we remember the video from just last year. The officers punched and kicked Nichols after a traffic stop. They beat him with batons. Autopsy results show Nichols died from blows he suffered that night. All three of them were convicted on charges of witness tampering related to the COVID up after the beating. But Tadarrius Bean and Justin Smith were acquitted of the civil rights charges.

Joining me now for their first television interview since those verdicts are RowVaughn and Rodney Wells, Tyre Nichols's mother and stepfather. Also with us, their attorney, Ben Crump. Thank you all for being back with me.

Mrs. Wells, let me start with you first. Right after the verdict, you said outside the courthouse that you were in shock. You've now had a couple of days for this verdict to sit with you. What do you feel this morning?

ROWVAUGHN WELLS, MOTHER OF TYRE NICHOLS: First of all, thank you for having us. I feel like a lightweight has been lifted off of my shoulders. It was good to actually hear some type of guilty verdict in order to relieve some of the stress that I've been carrying for the last two years. So it feels good right now.

BLACKWELL: Mr. Wells, Rodney Wells, is there some disappointment there that all three were not convicted of the most serious charges that would have potentially ended with them spending the rest of their lives in federal prison?

RODNEY WELLS, STEPFATHER OF TYRE NICHOLS: Slightly. But again, we feel vindicated with them getting sentenced at all. See them get marched out of the courtroom by the marshals was a big relief for our family. I haven't seen some of our kids smile and musk. And so if, regardless of whether they got charged with the civil rights offenses, just to see they'll get charged with something was crazy for the family.

BLACKWELL: Ben Crump, only one of the three was convicted of deprivation of Tyre Nichols civil rights, causing bodily injury, for excessive force and failure to intervene, and deliberate indifference. What does this portend for the state case, if anything?

BEN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, Victor, first of all, you have to understand the jury deliberation and what this verdict meant. It meant that three of the officers, Martin, Haley, and Mills, who they thought did the most beating of this brutal killing of Tyre Nichols was all guilty. Two of them pled, and Haley was found guilty. And they thought the other two who helped hold his legs and arms and may have punched was also guilty of conspiracy, which is crucial because it meant that these police officers conspired and lied about trying to cover it up.

[08:10:08]

What our community wants first and foremost is transparency and trust when they do something that they will be held accountable. But we got to be able to get to the truth of it. And so the verdict was very important, and it's going to be important about the sentencing. Now that they've all been found guilty and Mr. and Mrs. Wells said, nobody goes free. That was very important to them because it sends a message.

And the state attorney has said they are watching the sentencing, Victor, and they are not sentenced. What they feel appropriately, they are ready to bring the second-degree murder charges against these killers and they all are pointing a finger at each other.

So all of them have confessed to different things that not only help with the state criminal charges but really on the civil case so Tyre Nichols can get full justice.

BLACKWELL: Mrs. Wells, I remember watching an interview you did live here on CNN. This was the day that these officers were charged. But it was before we all saw the video, right? And you were talking with Don Lemon. It was live on CNN. And you said something that morning that struck me and has stayed with me. I want to play it for you now and then see if you feel the same. So many months later.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) WELLS: People don't know what those black police officers did to our

family, and they really don't know what they did to their own families. They have put their own families in harm's way. They have brought shame to their own families. They brought shame to the black community. I just feel sorry for -- I feel sorry for them. I really do. I really feel sorry for them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: You felt sorry for them that day? After what we've all watched on the video and what you've learned in the investigation and the trial. Do you still feel that 20 months later?

WELLS: I do still feel sorry for them. Nothing has changed. They have children. Their families have been how broken up because of this. I mean, this was a tragedy all the way around. We heard testimony that one has an autistic child, one has an eleven-year-old child. However, unfortunately, my grandson won't be able to see his father ever again, but their children will probably see them again. But I do feel the same way.

This was just a tragedy all the way around. And a lot of families were affected by this. And yes, it did hurt our communities because we never thought in a million years that we would see five police officers, five black police officers, beating up another black person. And so it was a shock. And yes, I do feel the same way.

BLACKWELL: I remember hearing you say that. And even today, I'm struck by your ability to still have compassion for those officers and for their families after what we all watched and what we've learned in the case. RowVaughn Wells, Rodney Wells, Attorney Ben Crump, thank you all for being with me.

A Hispanic community in Tennessee is reeling after an alarming incident during Hurricane Helene. Employees at a plastics factory say as the flooding started they were not allowed to leave. And one of our reporters just came back from that scene. He'll join us to explain what's happened next.

Plus, I'll speak to the mother and sister of Amber Thurman, whose death is putting a new spotlight on abortion rights. Their reaction to her name being invoked at the vice presidential debate and throughout this presidential campaign. Also, a new development in this case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:19:10]

BLACKWELL: So let's start by just establishing that all of the damage and the loss of life caused by Hurricane Helene is tragic. So we understand that. But the accusations against a company in Tennessee may be one of the more disturbing stories to come out in the aftermath.

There's a company that owns a plastics factory. It's now under investigation because workers say they were not allowed to leave when the flooding started. Eleven workers were swept away, five were rescued, four still missing, and two of the people confirmed dead were Mexican, according to an immigration group there. One of the victims was Bertha Mendoza.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUILLERMO MENDOZA, SON OF BERTHA MENDOZA: Originally, she called me in the morning saying, son, it's getting out. It's pretty ugly outside. Don't go outside. Make sure not to take my grandchildren outside. She always cared to do that whenever she felt like it just wasn't good weather. So that was my first -- my first and last conversation with my mother. I lost my mother, my grandmother, my children. My father lost his wife of 38 years, married, of marriage. We are not okay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:20:32]

BLACKWELL: CNN's Gustavo Valdes went to Irwin, Tennessee this week. He's back here, obviously, with us now. Thanks for coming in to share this story with us. Is the allegation here is that the managers wanted to keep them there, to keep working through the storm.

GUSTAVO VALDES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So at the very least, there might be a communication or a meaning of the communication, because a lot of the people we talked to and the people in the community told us that they felt like they were not allowed to go until it was too late. Yesterday, the CEO of the company Impact Plastic released a video in which he said that their investigation showed that employees had about an hour to be able to depart safely, starting at around 1035 until 11:45 a.m. when the last walk through the factory happened. However, in talking with the mayor and the city manager, they said by -- that by 10:20 that same morning, they were already responding to an emergency upriver at the hospital where they were having evacuation.

So that is what is going to be part of the state and federal investigation as to what happened with the timing. They do say that the waters rose really fast.

BLACKWELL: Now, you were there, obviously, speaking to members of the community. What did you hear when you were there?

VALDES: A lot of unity. It's a small town that has been growing because new industry, like the plastic factory is coming in, and new workers have been establishing residence in this Erwin, Tennessee for about 25 years when the first migrant workers, and by migrants, I don't mean immigrant workers. These are people who changed from state to state depending on the season, decided that this was a good place to raise a family. And they have grown the community, and now they are the base, the youth base for the city. And the mayor recognizes that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAYOR GLENN WHITE, ERWIN, TENNESSEE: What we want to tell our Hispanic citizens is that they're part of us. We are one people. And that's what I tried to explain to them. And I know that they understand that they're part of us and we love them. And our country's motto is, out of many, come one. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do as mayor, and that's why I'm here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALDES: And we really saw that during a candlelight vigil. We saw a very diverse community come out. They all cried, they prayed. When the names of the six victims were called out and everybody said present as a show of solidarity. So everybody is rallying around the community. They are trying to make sure that they know they have the support of the community and that they will be there after, like the mayor said, after the cameras and the federal and state officials leave, they will rebuild together.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Important to see this community coming together, not just as migrants coming in and people who have lived there a long time, but as one, Erwin, Tennessee. Gustavo, thanks so much.

All right. Hurricane Helene victims across multiple states need a lot of help right now. So for more information on how to help, go to cnn.com/impact.

There is a new development in the death of Amber Thurman. I should say. She is the woman in Georgia whom the presidential candidates say was a victim of the end of Roe v. Wade. Her family is now suing over her death. Amber's mother and sisters join me in studio next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:10]

BLACKWELL: The family of a woman in Georgia who died while she was waiting for abortion care is now suing the hospital where she tried to get that help. Amber Thurman discovered that she was pregnant with twins just after Georgia's six week abortion ban went into effect in 2022. Now, she had a medication abortion but developed a rare complication. She died after waiting 20 hours for a hospital near Atlanta to treat those complications.

Joining me now are Shanette Williams, CJ Williams, Andreka Thurman, Amber's mother, and sisters. I thank you all for being in with me. And let me start with you. This lawsuit now that you filed, comes in the context of a political season that's focused on the change in the law. Do you believe your daughter died because of the law or because of the negligence of those doctors? Both.

SHANETTE WILLIAMS, MOTHER OF AMBER THURMAN: Both.

BLACKWELL: This week, the superior court judge struck down the state six-week ban that doctors prevented them, they say, from helping your daughter. What's your reaction to the end of that ban here in Georgia?

THURMAN: When I saw it initially, I was heartbroken, angry, because years later, it's going to work for someone else, in which I'm happy for that, but I'm sad because my daughter's not here. BLACKWELL: Your daughter's death, as I said at the top, has now become

part of the national conversation about the end of Roe v. Wade. And there are some people who retreat from that and don't want to be part of the conversation. You are. You did an event with Vice President Harris and Oprah Winfrey. Why is it important for you to speak out in the political arena about this as well?

WILLIAMS: Because it affected me, it affected my daughter, and she's not here because of these issues. When I learned that it was preventable, everything changed.

BLACKWELL: And you talked about when that ProPublica reporter came to your door and initially you didn't want to engage.

S. WILLIAMS: No.

BLACKWELL: Tell me why.

S. WILLIAMS: Because that was private for me, the grief, the emotions, everything as parents, as a family that we've endured, why would I want to publicize it? That, you know, it's been extremely hard.

BLACKWELL: I can imagine. Actually, you know what? I say that, but I can't imagine because I'm not a parent and I also don't know what it feels like to have that type of loss. And now to have people you've never heard of using it as a political angle. What does it feel like when you hear your sister's name invoked in this political conversation?

CJAUNA "CJ" WILLIAMS, SISTER OF AMBER THURMAN: It's sad to me and it makes me angry because politics should never be mixed with healthcare and decisions that doctors have to make. So it makes me angry.

BLACKWELL: I want to play for you a portion of the Vice Presidential debate. Your daughter's name came up, and I want your reaction to it. This is Senator JD Vance, Republican nominee for Vice President.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JD VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've got to do so much better of a job at earning the American people's trust back on this issue where they frankly just don't trust us. And I think that's one of the things that Donald Trump and I are endeavoring to do. I want us as a Republican party to be pro-family in the fullest sense of the word. Amber Thurmond should still be alive, and there are a lot of people who should still be alive, and I certainly wish that she was.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: What's your reaction to what you heard there?

S. WILLIAMS: I don't have a reaction. All of this, honestly, it does make me angry. All of this is too late and my daughter is gone. The should, the could's, the would's. It does not help. As a mother, it does not help her father, it does not help her son, it does not help her sisters. It does not help our family. We're left with this. BLACKWELL: CJ, when you hear your sister's name invoked politically,

what do you feel? There is, again, I've said there's some people who want it to be separate, and there are some who say, let this be an opportunity to save another life. What do you feel and think?

CJ WILLIAMS, SISTER OF AMBER THURMAN: I'm just angry and heartbroken, confused. I feel guilty, you know, for trusting in the doctors to take care of her and telling her that she would be okay, you know, and that she was in good hands. It's just heartbreaking. It's devastating. And it's like we're replanning her funeral all over again. It's like we just lost her just again yesterday except for now I feel like she was taken away from us instead of just passing away. I feel like it's a murder or something, you know? And that makes it worse.

BLACKWELL: Shanette, you mentioned your grandson, six at the time, and six years old. That's an age full of questions, right? A lot of questions and I imagine you are very careful about the answers to those questions. What do you say? What do you tell him?

S. WILLIAMS: What can you say? What can you tell him? Although he was six at the time and he's eight now, he is extremely smart. In a conversation after we, as the world -- with the world, found out that it was preventable, he asked me, Grammy, can I ask you something? And he said, well, I don't know how to put it in words. And I told him, I said, just say what you -- just say what you feel. Just tell me. Just say it the way you need to say it. He said, do the doctors feel some type of way? And I couldn't answer it.

BLACKWELL: I thank you for being with me and sharing this. I know this was not your choice to be thrust into this after your daughter's death. But I thank you for speaking to us about what it feels like. And of course, we will follow your case, your lawsuit filed against these doctors and Pete Mount Henry Hospital. Thank you all.

S. WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you.

CJ WILLIAMS: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: We'll take a break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:39:50]

BLACKWELL: The miseducation of Lauryn Hill no black woman has won the top award at the Grammys Album of the Year since she did 25 years ago. In all, only eleven black artists have ever won that honor. Could that disparity change in part by changing who votes?

The Recording academy revealed this week that since 2019, the number of black voting members is now up 90%, Hispanic and Latino voting members up 43%, Asian or Pacific Islander voting members up 100%.

Harvey Mason Jr. is with us. He is the President and CEO of the Recording Academy. Thank you for being with us. And let's start here with most people don't know the members of the academy, the voting members. They don't know how many there are. So what does this mean for music, for artists, for opportunities for the people that they love, that they say maybe aren't getting enough shine?

HARVEY MASON JR., CEO, THE RECORDING ACADEMY: Well, Victor, thank you. I'll start by saying the numbers you said are just a start. We've made so many changes throughout the academy. But to your point, the membership is what does everything. The membership is made up of professional music people. So in order to be a member of the academy, you have to be working in the industry, you have to have credits, and you have to be relevant. We've re-qualified all of our membership over the last five years. So 100% of our members are now relevant contemporary music makers.

So to your point, the outcomes, the nominations, the wins, are all dictated by the membership and the votes. So there's two rounds. It's a nomination round. All the nominations go back to the voting body. The 13,000 voters vote again for the second time, and the winners are announced. It's a straightforward process. So we hope these numbers will have an impact on improving not just our outcomes around awards, but throughout our academy.

BLACKWELL: Yes. You know, I watched the Grammys and I remember Jay Z's speech in which he talked --

MASON: Good. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: You're welcome. He talked about, you know, the academy getting it right, right? And let me play -- let me do this. Luminate, which is an organization, you know, keeps track of all the metrics in the music industry. They reported that in 2023, Hip Hop again led all other genres in total on demand streams, more than a quarter of all streams were R and B and Hip Hop, twice Pop, more than three times Country streams. However, for all those fans in 2023, when they turned on the Grammys in 2024, none of the rap categories made the main show.

So reconcile that with this effort to represent diverse voices but not having enough time or platforming the most popular genre in music.

MASON: Sure. Well, we have 92 awards across so many different genres and we alternate what goes on our show. Actually, in 2024, 2023, we shared more Hip Hop on our show ever in the history of the Academy. We did a 13 minutes segment exclusively about Hip Hop and the importance of Hip Hop. The following year, we did a special about Hip Hop that was two hours on network television, the history of Hip Hop, and the 50th anniversary of Hip Hop. So things have absolutely changed.

We have a lot of genres, a lot of people that we represent, and we try and balance that throughout all the work that we're doing. And it's also not just our award show. You have to think, Victor, that the show generates revenue for everything we do.

So we have to put on the right show for the right audience and make sure we attract viewers and eyeballs and continue to generate revenue for the academy so we can do all the programs, the education, the philanthropy, the music service, the legislation. These things are all paid for by our show. So we have to do a balanced show and we also have to represent a lot of genres and a lot of awards.

BLACKWELL: Intersection of entertainment and politics here. In Hollywood, there are some who say that they are suffering consequences for speaking out of in support of Palestinians, in support of Gaza, and criticizing Israel. They're calling on unions to prevent blacklisting and blackball. How do you prevent that in voting? How do you prevent that against artists in your industry? Because I know you've released this really rare, if not unprecedented statement ahead of the start of voting.

MASON: Well, we like to encourage our voters and I believe they do this, to listen to the music. It's not about anything else. It's not about the politics or the race or the gender or even, in some instances, the genre. It's about the quality of the music. And I like to believe that our members, because they are professionals. There are people like me that are in studios, there are songwriters or music makers. They care about the music. They care about the art. So our hope and my wishes that they evaluate the music based on the quality of it. And that's really the goal, subjective. This is all very difficult. It's not easy, but we evaluate the music on its excellence just for that one year.

BLACKWELL: Harvey Mason Jr., thank you so much for your time. And again, I do, I really do watch the Grammys.

MASON: Thanks Victor.

BLACKWELL: The biggest night in music. Thanks so much. All right. I never thought I'd bring up something called the thick build long spur on this show but here we are. It's part of the latest debate to come from the post-2020 racial reckoning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:49:38]

BLACKWELL: 2020's racial reckoning may not have led to the policing changes so many people hoped for but it did lead to a lot of name changes. Remember Aunt Jemima? Gone. Eskimo Pie? Now Edie's pie. Also in 2020, we got the thick billed long spur. It's a bird once known as McCown's long spur. It got its name from a man named John McCown. He was an amateur bird collector who was also a confederate general.

There are six other North American bird species the American Ornithological Society plans to change for similar reasons. And this apparently set off a big debate among birders ahead of their annual meeting, which kicked off in Colorado this week. Birdwatcher Christian Cooper was there. You'll remember his story. We showed a bit of the video just a moment ago.

On the same day George Floyd was killed in Minneapolis, a white woman called police on Christian after he called her out over her unleashed dog in Central Park. And that incident was part of the Black Lives Matter conversation that year. And Christian Cooper, now the host of National Geographic's Extraordinary Birder with Christian Cooper and the author of the memoir Better living through Birding. He is with us now. All right. So I expect that there are people who

are saying now they want to change the name of birds. Confederate monuments, okay, Aunt Jemima off the pancake box, fine. But birds, come on to, that you say what?

CHRISTIAN COOPER, HOST, "EXTRAORDINARY BIRDER": Well, the first thing you have to understand is that bird names change fairly regularly. So what has some people upset is that why these names are changing. And the reason is because a lot of these people have some pretty awful histories. And so we can either keep living with those awful legacy histories or we can do something to change them and at the same time be giving these birds names that are actually useful to people, like if you say to somebody, oh, I want to see a Wilsons Warbler, nobody knows what you're talking about.

But if you say to somebody who doesn't know birds, oh, I want to see a black capped warbler, you would at least know you're looking for a warbler with a black cap. So we're getting more useful names on the one hand and getting rid of these legacy names that have often a lot of bad connotations.

BLACKWELL: So let's go through a few of them. Some of the first six to change and John Kirk Townsend has two in the first six, Townsend's warbler and Townsend solitaire. Tell us about John Kirk Townsend. These are fine-looking birds but why did he make the list?

COOPER: Well, because he was a naturalist and an ornithologist, and so he was very important in ornithology. But he also robbed the graves of indigenous people to send to his pal in Philadelphia, who was measuring skulls to prove his racist theories about how white people were superior. And he knew what he was doing. He knew that this was a desecration of other people's religious beliefs, and he didn't care, so he did anyway. And it led to a legacy that's still with us today of this thinking about racial superiority even though it's been scientifically disproven. It held sway for so long, it's still embedded in a lot of people's thinking.

BLACKWELL: Scott's Oriole, Jennifer Win -- General Winfield Scott, why did he make the list?

COOPER: Yes. This is one of the worst ones out there because he wasn't a naturalist. He wasn't an ornithologist. It's just that one of his privates under his command happened to, "discover this bird to western science," and he named it after his commanding officer as an honor to his commanding officer who happened to be the guy who presided over the trail of tears that led to the forced relocation of 17,000 Cherokee. And in the process, a third of them died so it's really a case of genocide. And this guy has a bird named after him that every time an indigenous birder says the guy's, bird's name, and the bird has nothing to do with the guy. They've got to put that man's name in his mouth and that's not right.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And it's not just the names of confederate generals and the leaders of the trail of tears that are leaving these bird species. You're getting rid of all eponymous names, the ornithological, a word I've never pronounced before today, societies, all of these names are going, right?

COOPER: Sure. And that's the beauty of what the American Ornithological Society has done. And I should mention that I'm not a member of the society, though. I just came from their meeting by where I gave a speech to them about just this subject. The beauty of what they've done is they've decided to get rid of all names after people because they're not going to get sucked into that trap of, okay, well, who's good? Who's bad?

You know, we've got to make moral judgments and whose standards do we use? And what about in the future when people judge us? And they're bypassing the whole thing by saying, you know what? No more names based from people for birds. And it's a brilliant decision. It takes any sort of moral judgments out of it altogether.

And more importantly, a lot of these names came in the 18 hundreds, the 19th century when, you know, there was European expansion westward, the displacement of the indigenous, the enslavement of African Americans. And it was all about sort of like naming things after white people. And it's like, okay, well, that flew back then. But that's not where we are now. And we want to make sure everyone feels welcome in birding. And this is a way to open up the doors to everybody because we need everybody active in birding, as many people as possible, because we've lost so many of our birds in the last 50 years.

[08:55:23]

BLACKWELL: Christian Cooper, I just knew you were the right person to have this conversation with, not just about birding, but about how social justice is about more than police interaction and housing equality and DEI, that even in birding and other parts of life, we might not imagine that we need to review some of the decisions of previous generations. Christian Cooper, thanks so much for being with me this morning and thank you for joining me today.

I will see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Be sure to check out cnn.com/victorblackwell-first-of-all, with hyphens between each word. To watch clips from our segments you might have missed and you can listen to our show as a podcast now available wherever you get your podcast. Smerconish is up after a quick break.

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