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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Today: Harris Holds Campaign Rallies In Detroit, Atlanta; Obama Returns To Campaign Trail With Rally In Arizona; Trump To Bronx Barbershop Crowd: "You Guys Are The Same As Me"; Harris, Trump Take Jabs At Each Other's Cognitive Abilities; Family Pleads For Help To Find Dancer Zelig Williams. Harris Lays Out Agenda For Black Voters, What Is Trump's?; Muslim Woman Sues Over Posting Of Mugshot Without Hijab; Titus Kaphar's "Exhibiting Forgiveness" In Theaters Now. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired October 19, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Seen notification from his phone. His family is with us for plea for help. And later, a Muslim woman arrested during a pro-Palestinian protest is suing a sheriff's office in Tennessee. She says they forced her to remove her hijab for a mug shot and then published that photo. That woman and her attorney are here.

All right, let's start the show.

Well, first of all, to draw a crowd in Detroit or Atlanta is not Bruce Springsteen or Jon Bon Jovi getting the call. Check Vice President Harris' itinerary for guests today, pulling up to a rally with Lizzo in the Motor City and Usher in the A. Her running mate Tim Walz in North Carolina is doing the same thing, campaigning with Common. Seventeen days to the election, if the focus on Black voters by Democrats was not already obvious, the campaign says that tomorrow, Harris and Walz will be each attending services in Black churches. God is good, all the time.

The campaign clearly thinks there's still work to do to get Black voters out to vote. Trump and Republicans sense there's an opening. Our first guest on this today are the co-hosts of "Native Land Pod," Angela Rye, Tiffany Cross and Andrew Gillum, joining us from Detroit. The first stop on their podcast, bring it home toward.

Tiffany, let me start with you, and good morning. I should have invited you all on the show long before now, but I'm glad you are on now. So Tiffany, let me start here. The Democrats concerns their fears of eroding Black support, specifically among Black men. Is it overblown?

TIFFANY CROSS, CO-HOST, "NATIVE LAND POD": Absolutely. And first of all, Victor, hello for your show. I just want to say congratulations to you and thank you for centering the rising majority of this country on your programming. But absolutely it's overblown, and I find it quite offensive to be honest with you, Victor, because the people who are going to impact this election the most when it comes to Donald Trump are conservative White voters. The data just doesn't bear it out, Republicans got 12 percent of Black men in 2020 and they got 12 percent of Black men in 2016.

I think when you see -- you know, reporters asking Black men, the immediate question should be, are you registered to vote? Did you vote in the last election? And so, I think that's narrative is attempting to lay the failure of this democracy at the feet of Black men. And I would no sooner lay this feet of the failure of this democracy as Black men than I would at Black women. When it comes to data, Black women are the highest number of ethnic voting block for Democrats.

Black men, numerically are right behind that. And I think this narrative, to be honest with you, is because of the demographics of newsrooms. When you look at Black staff in the rooms, as you well know, Victor, it's 6 percent. When it comes to Black women, it's even less than 6 percent. So I hope that we can have more honest conversation when it comes to what this demographic looks like.

BLACKWELL: Yes, speaking of laying this at the feet of Black men and honest conversations, former President Obama was back out last night. This is the first time since he was in Pittsburgh and invoked the potential of sexism in his appeal to Black men to support the vice president. Angela, should there be a course correction because there was so much backlash to that framework. Was it a mistake for the former president to say what he did or to say it publicly? What was your assessment of what we heard from former President Obama?

ANGELA RYE, CO-HOST, "NATIVE LAND POD": You know, I think that it's wonderful that President Obama is out hitting the trail for democracy, frankly. And what I think is a mistake is to let White folks escape the accountability that they must face for not showing up to save democracy themselves. Like they want to get mad at presidential candidates right when they don't wear a flag lapel pin or they don't see you pledging allegiance to the flag, that's what they want to get upset about. Now, the face of patriotism to them looks like trying to tear down the capitol in a terrorist attack on January 6, 2021. So the responsibility of saving democracy should be on the largest demographic in this country, that is White men and White women.

I don't want to see a women's march with pussy hats come January if something doesn't go right. What I want to see is for them to march their selves to the polls, including today we are in Detroit, Michigan for an early vote rally. In Michigan, early voting starts next Saturday, which is my birthday, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Happy birthday.

RYE: But today in Detroit starts today. There's a big event at pistons land. We will be adjacent to that event. Have been talking to folks, Detroit voters, about what they want to hear about the agendas that matter to them, about the economy, about health care, about ensuring that democracy is preserved, even if it's not perfect. We're doing our part.

[08:05:13]

BLACKWELL: Yes.

RYE: It's time for White folks to turn their ire and their attention to each other to ensure they also do their part.

BLACKWELL: Let me say with you, Angela on that, and let's talk about White women and the percentage of the electorate that they are. We got a chart here to show you. 2020 Black men were 4 percent of the overall electorate. White women were 32 percent and voted in a larger percentage for former President Trump in 2020 than they did in 2016, that was after the Women's March. That was after the appointment of Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett. This was after the accusations from E. Jean Carroll.

So as we see these Zoom calls, White Women for Harris, and the money raising and the signs and the population at the rallies, are you confident that there will be any reversal of the trend we saw from 2016 to 2020 among White women or White men, the White dudes for Harris, even?

RYE: You know what I would love is, I think it's important for Andrew. We had a whole episode on this, the Karens and the Kateys. And so, I have said what I needed to say to White voters. I think they need to talk to each other, but our resident diplomat may have something different on this. But I would say you should go back and hear a very tense and high conversation about this very topic.

Because to me, I'm like, do not at all put the responsibility on us, because in exchange, even Kamala Harris has said that she has to earn every vote, including every Black vote, and that means forward facing. We know that she dropped an agenda this week to the attention of Black men. A lot of folks only saw the social media graphic. They didn't see the full nine page plan that includes everything to what farmers deserve --

BLACKWELL: yes.

RYE: -- to health care, to which types of industries we should get involved in. So I love to hear what Andrew has to say about going to get the Karens and the Kateys and the others, including the White Women for Harris that are being good allies and even arguably accomplices in this moment. But I don't -- I'm not turning my attention to that.

BLACKWELL: We are trying to get his Zoom link to work to be completely transparent with the year.

RYE: well, I'm right (inaudible) back here.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

RYE: I don't have a monitor, I can't see. So I'll just tell you this.

BLACKWELL: Yes. RYE: Andrew wants to go get every voter turnover every -- he is the resident evangelist. You said they're going to Black church tomorrow, he will be our resident pastor then. Because Andrew believes in going to the highways and the byways and everywhere else. I do too, but I do think it is so frustrating, Victor, I'll tell you, Leonard (ph) and I were on a panel in Austin, and, you know, way earlier this year, talking about this, every time we go on air, people want to talk to us about what's going on with Black voters? What's going on with you all?

Like, just on us. It's an entire democracy that needs to be saved.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

RYE: What's going on with Brown voters? Brown women and Brown men. What's going on with Asian voters? Asian men and Asian women, including those who sue to dismantle affirmative action.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

RYE: Right? That is not everybody. We are -- none of us are monolithic. The voter interests and what we care about are broad, but we all need to speak -- be speaking to each other with conviction about what is going on and what is needed in this moment. And I think it is patently unfair for folks who overwhelmingly show out, disproportionately so, for the Democratic Party to be saying, well, what happens if democracy is at risk?

It's you all's fault. No, it's not either, you need to be looking at each other. It's nice that it's a handful of Republicans that have come to stand behind Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, but what about everyone else?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Tiffany, there was a moment yesterday former President Trump went into, and I listened to the most recent episode, and that's why I'm bringing this to you. He went into a barber shop in the Bronx, and I know you have a concern about the media when they're going to find Black men going only to a barber shop, the breadth of our community and views. Let me play a bit of the moment and then I want to hear more your thoughts on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: You guys are the same as me. It's the same stuff. We were born the same way. I grew up in Queens and all of that. I mean, you know, it's -- I had a great father.

I had a father who was a great guy. He was tough, but good, big heart. Big, big heart. And he was a construction guy, pretty much, and a real estate guy. And I learned a lot from him.

He was great. But I know you people so well. Without knowing you, I know you so well. When I walked in here, I said, this is home territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: I know you people so well. What did you hear there? And I do want to hear your thoughts about when the media, when we go out and we say, we want to talk to Black people, often the assignment is, go to the -- go to the barber shop, go to the soul food restaurant, and you'll get Black thoughts and Black views. What's your thought about what you heard in that approach?

[08:10:04]

CROSS: Well, first of all, Victor, you've been to the barbershop and you know good and well Donald Trump does not see us for our humanity at all. One of our friends -- Angela and I had a group chat, and one of our friends texted this morning that Donald Trump is worried about his freedom, Vice President Harris is worried about yours. He has no interest in our humanity at all.

But I want to be clear, I completely understand and respect the sanctity of space, safe spaces for Black people, and certainly barbershops and hair salons are that. My challenge to the media is the same way that White voters have cute little colloquial nicknames, we say things like soccer moms and NASCAR dads, so too can names be applied to Black voters. And so, when you want to talk to Black people it is not -- it should not just be barbershops and beauty salons, but there's HBCU campuses. HU, Howard University's homecoming is this weekend. This is the Vice President's alma mater.

Certainly folks there, of all walks of life, of all socioeconomic backgrounds, have something to contribute. And then there are also spaces for Black voters. Yes, churches count as well, but so often you see people going to diners in the middle of nowhere, what they call flyover states. Well, there are places like Detroit that's in a quote, unquote, "flyover state." There's Cleveland, Ohio, that's in a flyover state. So there are different spaces I would challenge the media to explore and afford us the same depth and nuance that you have when you give to White voters.

And I just want to piggyback on what Angela said when it comes to this broad coalition of voters. So somehow so many -- and racism is bipartisan. Don't get me wrong, none of us are mouthpieces for the Democratic Party. We've always voted for harm reduction, but there are so many pockets of voters. The Asian-American demographic is the fastest growing demographic in this country.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CROSS: Latino voters, for the first time, have eclipsed Black voters when it comes to eligible voters, not registered voters. So there's a broad coalition of voters. And really what this fight is about that some people would rather see this country burn to the ground before they see somebody who looks like us running and we just refuse. It is time for America to bend to the changing demographic. And if it doesn't, we all know what happens to things that don't bend.

BLACKWELL: Andrew Gillum is with us now. We got that technical issue solved. Let me ask you, you're in Detroit for this bring it home tour, 17 days left.

ANDREW GILLUM, CO-HOST, "NATIVE LAND POD": Yes.

BLACKWELL: Is this the sprint to the end? Is it just getting out the vote? Or does the Vice President still have some convincing to do?

GILLUM: Yes, it's a good question. I'm glad to join you, and I heard my sisters before I was able to join. Victor, we'll have to follow up on this growing coalition --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GILLUM: -- conversation and where White women fit in it. But at this point, I think the Vice President is making her closing argument. But I'm not so convinced that there's so many available voters out there that still need to be gotten. Her job at this point I believe, and our job is about turnout. Maximizing the folks, who we know, if they show up, will make the right decision for our future and for themselves.

But she's had to get out there, be everywhere. Politics is the math of addition and not subtraction. And of the two candidates in this race, there's only been one focus on growing their coalition, one focus on speaking to as many Americans as they can reach, and that's been Vice President Kamala Harris. And at this stage, our job now is to turn out every single person that we believe will get to the ballot box and make the right decision, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right. One more for you before we go. The Trump campaign and allies have spent $21 million in ads attacking Harris on her past support for gender affirming care. They're rolling it out during NFL games. They're doing it during the college football games, obviously targeting men in swing states.

They think she's vulnerable there. Do you think she is, Andrew?

GILLUM: I mean, first of all, what a low blow for Republicans at this stage to be focused on what is, I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I would argue maybe less than 2 percent of the country identify as transgender, and democracies are supposed to be here to protect the voices of the minority. And you've got a Republican Party right now who have taken target aim practice at some of the most vulnerable people in our community, vulnerable to suicide, vulnerable to assault, vulnerable to discrimination.

You see, this is in part, what underlies the major differences between these two candidates, one who is for protecting and expanding the voices of people, protecting the voices of the minority to make sure that they're heard. The other one is spending the final days of the campaign not making an argument for the overwhelming majority of Americans about jobs, economy, including issues that the trans community would very much will find interesting themselves. They're focused on how it is that we demonize --

[08:15:03]

BLACKWELL: Yes. GILLUM: -- and separate and other eyes (ph) people. And I just think it's a terrible distraction. They'll pay the price for that eventually. But I think this is not an argument for the American people to consider at this stage.

BLACKWELL: Andrew Gillum, Angela Rye, Tiffany Cross, got a wrap it there. Thank you all for coming on the show, and we'll do it again. Appreciate you.

GILLUM: Look forward to it, man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Al right, Vice President Kamala Harris, will face voters and take their most pressing questions next week here on CNN. Anderson Cooper moderates the CNN presidential town Hall, Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

Now, with all the focus on the vice president's pitch for Black men and Black voters, what is the Trump agenda for Black Americans? We'll ask someone working to grow Trump support among Black men.

But first, a search is happening right now for a missing Broadway dancer named Zelig Williams. He vanished more than two weeks ago. Zelig's mother, cousin and close friend are all with us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:40]

BLACKWELL: A family in South Carolina is waiting to hear any word of where their missing loved one is. Zelig Williams is 28 years old. He's a dancer who has appeared in some of Broadway's biggest chose, including "Hamilton," "MJ the Musical." He returned home to Columbia recently to teach a dance workshop for teenagers. Days later, he left home and has not been seen or heard from since.

His family says he left home in Columbia just before 10:00 a.m. 16 days ago. At 10-10, three friends in New York say they got an emergency notification of a crash from his phone. They contacted William's mother. A witness reported seeing Zelig near the Palmetto Trail. Later that day, the family filed a missing persons report.

The next day, police found his car more than 20 miles from his home. Showed no signs of an accident. His belongings were still inside.

Authorities are asking for your help. And the family has hired a private investigator.

With me now, Zelig's mother, Kathy Williams, along with his cousin, Mieoki Corbett-Jacobs. Thank you both for being with me.

Ms. Williams, let me first start on that morning, just before 10:00 a.m. the last time you saw your son. Tell me about that morning.

KATHY WILLIAMS, MOTHER OF ZELIG WILLIAMS: That morning, Thursday -- excuse me, Thursday morning that Zelig came out side. I was sitting outside on the porch, and he came out and he said, as he was going down the steps, he said, good morning, Mama. He said, how you slept last night? I slept good. And I asked him, I said, good morning to you.

I said, how you slept? And he said, great. I said, OK. And then he just went on to the car, to the SUV, and got in. and I asked him, I said, can I look at your photo shot?

And he mum something to me I didn't understand, and he just got in the car and cranked it up, warm it up, and took off.

BLACKWELL: Nothing out of the ordinary that morning?

WILLIAMS No, sir.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Mieoki, they found his car 20 miles from home in this state park. Was this a place that he was known to visit?

MIEOKI CORBETT-JACOBS, ZELIG WILLIAM'S COUSIN: Not necessarily known to visit, but a place he might go walking, like one thing about our family is we love a good walking trail. We even had a visual for him at one of the parks where we would walk. So not known to myself, I've never been to that trail, but I do believe he might have been possibly once or twice, not sure.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Mieoki, the sheriff there has said that they've used, in Richland County, used all manner of manpower and technology to find Zelig, but nothing. Your family has hired a private investigator. Have there been any clues, anything in addition to the county's investigation?

CORBETT-JACOBS: Not yet. They continue to get leads, and they follow those leads. And recently, someone sent us pictures, even to the family, and someone who looked like Zelig, but it was not Zelig. They're continuing to work through different things in order to get additional leads. But as a family, we've been searching.

We've searched that area and -- ourselves on foot more than once, and now we're looking to expand our search, because the rural area, so we're going to expand our search out both ways of where that trail is, they lead to major roads --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CORBETT-JACOBS: -- links to what they start searching there now.

BLACKWELL: Ms. Williams, do you believe your son is in danger?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BLACKWELL: I understand that you are a mother of three, but your daughters you lost in a car crash many years ago, and that your son, Zelig, honors his sisters through his dance. Can you tell me how? [08:25:00]

WILLIAMS: He told me when he danced, he feel his sisters with him. And he is a awesome dancer, amazing dancer. And that what he loved doing, so that keep him going.

BLACKWELL: And Mieoki, if Zelig can see this, and I'll ask this of both of you, what would you like to say to him?

CORBETT-JACOBS: I would tell Zelig, and we'll tell Zelig to hold on. Hold on to God, hold on to your faith and find your way home. We will not stop looking for you until we bring you home.

WILLIAMS: True.

BLACKWELL: Ms. Williams, same thing. If you can speak to your son right now and he can see this, what do you want to tell him?

WILLIAMS: I tell Z, Z, I love you. I want you back home, safe, sound. I just -- I mean, just love on him more and more and more because he's my last one, and I want him home.

BLACKWELL: Kathy Williams --

WILLIAMS: I want him home with me.

BLACKWELL: Kathy Williams, Mieoki Corbett-Jacobs --

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BLACKWELL: -- thank you for being with me this morning. And I'd like all of you back when Zelig comes home, I'd like to talk with you again.

CORBETT-JACOBS: Thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you. And if you have information, call the Richland County Sheriff's Department. We hope Zelig is found safe soon.

Coming up, more on the race for president, does Donald Trump have concrete, specific plans targeted at Black voters? Does he have concepts of a plan? I'll ask an advisor to the campaign, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:14]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Vice President Harris is out with her opportunity agenda for black men. The plan laid out this week includes fully forgivable loans of up to $20,000 for entrepreneurs. National Health Initiative focused on illnesses that disproportionately impact black men. Legalization of recreational marijuana.

Former President Trump touts his accomplishments for black Americans and what he did when he was president. Now the question is, what will he do with another four years for black men? Bruce LaVelle is here. He's a member of the Black Men for Trump Advisory Board. Bruce, good morning to you. So the Vice President laid out an agenda specifically targeted toward black men. Does the former president have an agenda specifically for black men?

BRUCE LAVELLE, BLACK MEN FOR TRUMP ADVISORY BOARD MEMBER: Well, thanks for having me, Victor. Happy Saturday. Well, I'm not sure how that's going to pass legally what Vice President Kamala Harris is, you know, pitching at the very final hour, had many years to put something in place to help a lot of these communities, especially, yes, the black community.

But Victor, let me just make it clear. You know, President Trump, his agenda is to finish, as I say, the unfinished business what we had in the previous administration. We had the record low black unemployment since 1972, recorded my lifetime. You saw the opportunity zones trying to go in and put some economic development in some underserved communities, which is a life support and building back generational wealth.

And listen, I know Vice President Harris is 17 days, Victor. She -- it's -- it's a desperation trying to just throw something out there to try to get black folks. I don't think any -- any culture should be taken for granted and say, well, you're going to vote this way for the next 60, 70 years.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

LAVELLE: And black Americans are waking up and trending more on voting Republican. And they're going to and -- and, Victor, I'll say it right here on your show. This will be historic. It'll be a record voter turnout for black Americans for Trump, November 5th.

BLACKWELL: OK. Let me -- let me ask you this on the question of, if there is a specific agenda for black men, is that a no?

LAVELLE: Well, I just -- I just explained it to you. There is an agenda. There is an for all Americans that fit all. And Victor, let me just make it clear here.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

LAVELLE: We have millions of undocumented -- we don't even know who's in this country, millions. And we know everyone knows that the money has been circumvented around, yes, the American citizens, taxpayers, especially in black underserved communities, putting illegal immigrants, you know, in Chicago, Oakland, and -- and in some cases, I just found out here in San Antonio and other -- and other places.

So that right there just -- just defending the Constitution for all Americans, helps all Americans lower taxes, you know, putting stronger law enforcement and communities, that right there is a fix all. There's no specific, you know, you know, let's just throw something against the wall, like Vice President Kamala. And you all know that is not going to stick taking a specific route, say, we're going to give you this. We're going to give you this.

BLACKWELL: But let me say this --

LAVELLE: That is -- that is desperation, Victor.

BLACKWELL: -- let me say this, Bruce. The campaign cares enough about black men to have an advisory board of black men to get him elected but you say that it's a catch all for the voters, that there is no requisite policy focus on black men. And on your point about employment and unemployment, black unemployment did get down to 5.3 under Trump, it got down to 4.8 under Biden, just as you said, it was the lowest in your lifetime. It was lower in the Biden administration.

You talked about black people not being beholden to any specific party and being able to choose, and that's 100 percent true. Let me play what former President Trump said in Atlanta this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Any African American or Hispanic and you know how well I'm doing there, that votes for Kamala, you got to have your head examined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:35:09]

BLACKWELL: How do you reconcile that with -- with the -- the tolerance of political differences that you say that -- that people should have when it comes to black people choosing the party they want to support?

LAVELLE: Well, listen, I think it's humorous. There's going to be a lot of that back and forth, Victor, you know that all the way to 17 days to November 5th. But there's one thing that stands out, historically, the Democrat Party has put the worst policies in the nation's history that affect black communities, true. That is true, historically.

Look at the record. Look at our communities. What's wrong with saying as President Trump said, Victor, come on now, I said on your show years ago, what the heck you have to lose? You've been voting the same way, 30, 40, 50 years. Look around. Are you happy with what you have? Absolutely not. So yes, that's the reason why President Trump is trending as the highest black voter turnout in any Republican candidate, let alone presidential in the history, since Nixon and Lincoln.

And why -- and I'm telling you, watch November 5th, you're going to be like, OK, we're going to be 15 plus percent guaranteed, 100 percent. This -- this game is over, of taking black folk for granted, thinking that, oh, well, that's -- you're just going to have to vote Democrat. It's being challenged. And they know it. And it's desperation. That's why you're seeing this desperation by Vice President -- President Kamala, which I don't know how constitutionally, she's even going to be able to pass any of these line 91 specific culture throwing out free, free, free, free, free. BLACKWELL: Yes.

LAVELLE: That's not going to work, and we know that. And then black folk know that. They're tired of the pandering, Victor, all due respect.

BLACKWELL: Bruce LaVelle, thank you. I mean, I don't -- I don't know how you compare his turnout and support among black voters in 2024 to elections in the 1860s when black people didn't have the right to vote for Abraham Lincoln. But I appreciate you coming on.

LAVELLE: And I understand -- and I understand, Victor, I understand bro.

BLACKWELL: You -- you said black supporters since Abraham Lincoln, I'm just pointing out.

LAVELLE: And Nixon and the --

BLACKWELL: OK.

LAVELLE: -- and the highest turnout in black culture in the history. That's what I said, Victor, come on now.

BLACKWELL: Bru -- Bru -- Bruce LaVelle --

LAVELLE: Let's go. I see you November 5th.

BLACKWELL: All right, listen, you're welcome to come on before then. Bruce LaVelle, joining us, Black Men Advisory Council to Trump, thanks so much.

Coming up, a Muslim woman in Tennessee is suing the Sheriff's Office says she forced -- she was forced, rather, to remove hijab for a mugshot and then publish that photograph. That woman and her attorney are here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:16]

BLACKWELL: A Sheriff's Department in Tennessee faces a lawsuit from a woman who says their handling of her mugshot violated her religious rights. Layla Soliz was arrested in May during pro-Palestinian protests in Knoxville. She's Muslim and wears a hijab every day. Now, Solis says a booking photo was taken of her with her hijab, but she says she was also forced to take one without her hijab.

Her lawsuit cites police policy stating the photo should have been stored and not posted publicly. But the photo without the hijab was posted publicly. We reached out to the Knox County Sheriff's Office. We were referred to the Knox County Law Director's Office that told us they do not comment on pending litigation and added our response to the lawsuit will be filed in court.

Layla Soliz is with us now, along with her attorney, Daniel Horwitz. Thank you both for being with me. Layla, let me start with you, because I -- I think most people understand that your hijab is part of your faith. But for those of us who do not have the appropriate understanding, can you explain the seriousness, the severity of an observant Muslim woman being seen by men outside of her family without her hijab?

LAYLA SOLIZ, FILED LAWSUIT OVER RELEASE OF MUGSHOT WITHOUT HIJAB: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much again for having me this morning. So I would say the closest comparison I could draw to be having a picture of me posted without my hijab is someone having a picture posted of them against their will, topless or pantless.

You know it's -- it's a form of nakedness to be exposed to the world, particularly, as you mentioned to men outside of my family without hijab. So it's extremely upsetting.

BLACKWELL: You were taken into custody on a misdemeanor related to this protest in Knox County, as I said, there was one photo taken with the hijab, one without, de -- describe the exchange with this deputy about what you were told about the photo of you without the hijab.

SOLIZ: Sure. I'd like to just highlight that the protest that I was arrested at was actually a peaceful vigil commemorating the 76th Anniversary of the Nakba. We were calling for an end to the genocide, for an end to violence, and I was walking on my alma mater's campus. I graduated from that campus. And UT Administration called on UT police to come and arrest us. So I just want to highlight that.

It was not only my religious freedoms that were, you know, infringed upon that naive also freedom of speech. You know, we -- we grew up learning that we should be able to implement freedom of speech, particularly to call on people to exercise their community and for our country to stop using our tax dollars to fund a genocide in Gaza. So just want to highlight that.

[08:45:06]

BLACKWELL: Yes.

SOLIZ: Once we did get into the -- the detention facility, UT police turned us over to local law enforcement. And I was taken in for my booking photo, two female officers accompanied me. They informed me I would have to take a photo. They first took my photo with my hijab, and then they said I would also have to take one without it.

And I expressed my discomfort with that, knowing that especially across the country in the past year, and even prior to this past year, we've seen a lot of instances of Muslim women having their photos posted without their hijab. So I know -- I knew to be on the lookout for that.

And so I said, do I have to remove the hijab? They said, it is our policy. You -- you do have to remove it. But they assured me, when I asked them that it would not be visible to male officers --

BLACKWELL: Yes. SOLIZ: Nor would it be posted anywhere public. They, you know, very clearly stated that would not happen. In addition, I found out later that I had advocates in the -- in the office upstairs reminding the personnel --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

SOLIZ: -- there to not post my hijab, my picture without hijab.

BLACKWELL: And that -- and that actually is the -- the county policy, a photo is taken with your hijab and without, and the photo without by same gender deputy. Let me get your attorney here, Daniel, the -- the policy I just read was reportedly added after a federal case in which a woman was threatened with indefinite jail time if she did not remove her hijab, that's according to a federal lawsuit. So this has happened with this -- this department before.

DANIEL A. HORWITZ, ATTORNEY: Good morning. Thank you for having us. I think what you're referring to is a -- is a recent case out of Rutherford County. We happen to file that lawsuit as well, where they changed their -- their policy after a very similar situation happen there.

But the first thing that I want your viewers to understand is that when the government runs an institution like a jail, if it wants to burden someone's sincerely held religious beliefs, then it needs to have a compelling reason for doing so, and needs to do so in the least restrictive way possible.

There simply is no compelling governmental reason to publish a Muslim woman's uncovered booking photo under circumstances like this. As -- as you mentioned, this exact sheriff's office had a policy against doing so, as do other sheriff's offices in Tennessee and across the country, including in conservative places like Rutherford County now, including in Davidson County here in Nashville, where I am.

So because what happened here violated federal law, violated state law, and it violated the sheriff's office's own policy, we're suing to ensure that this doesn't happen to anyone else ever again.

BLACKWELL: All right. Daniel Horwitz, Layla Soliz, thank you both for being with me. We'll continue to follow your case. We'll be right back.

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[08:52:23]

BLACKWELL: Seeking and giving forgiveness is hard. Turns out, talking about it is tough, too. Artist Titus Kaphar took on the challenge for his first film, "Exhibiting Forgiveness." Now you've likely seen his art before, like the iconic cover of "The Time Magazine" from June of 2020 during that summer's protest. Now for this newest installment of artist life, Titus explained to me how exploring his relationship with his father revealed a universal story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TITUS KAPHAR, WRITER AND DIRECTOR, "EXHIBITING FORGIVENESS": My name is Titus Kaphar. I'm a painter, sculptor, filmmaker. And I am from Kalamazoo, Michigan. This film started as me trying to find a way to talk to my kids about how different my life is from their life.

ANDRE HOLLAND, ACTOR: Let's get it.

KAPHAR: And so it started as me trying to write a letter to my sons. And when I was finished, I shared it with a friend of mine, and it was clear to him that -- that it could go further.

HOLLAND: I ain't seen you for 15 years, but now you want to be somebody granddaddy. You somebody daddy? No.

ANDRA DAY, ACTRESS: I want him to hear this.

AUNJANUE ELLIS-TAYLOR, ACTRESS: Listen, I need you to speak to him.

HOLLAND: No.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: I need you to talk to him.

HOLLAND: No.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: He has changed.

HOLLAND: He ain't changed.

KAPHAR: I remember we streamed this film in Birmingham, Alabama, this white guy, at the end of the film, he says, I know our backgrounds are really different, but that's my story. And you had conversations in there that I've had with my father.

JOHN EARL JELKS, ACTOR: Man, you got flaws around. Yes, you got flaws.

HOLLAND: I'm not the same man you used to know before Terrell, that's what you said, right?

I forgive your father.

KAPHAR: And so for me to have taken a very, very personal story, I'm not trying to make anything but my experience and recognizing that by being that vulnerable and getting that personal, I was like connecting to something maybe -- maybe universal.

In the film, the paintings are actually used as windows into the mind of the main character. What we end up seeing in the film, the character's younger self, pushing the paintings into his consciousness. It's always symbolic and nuanced in the same way that I think people experience my paintings.

ELLIS-TAYLOR: If you don't forgive others of their past sins, then you can be forgiven.

KAPHAR: The kind of forgiveness that I was taught, honestly doesn't reflect my experience. So I was taught forgive and forget. And so the damages that hurt, those wounds that in some cases, physically scarred you, you have to pretend like that doesn't exist. I don't really believe in that kind of forgiveness. So this film is hopefully offering a kind of forgiveness that actually amplifies the experience of the victim in the situation and not necessarily the perpetrator.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:55:19]

BLACKWELL: Titus's latest exhibition is also titled "Exhibiting Forgiveness." It's currently on view through November 2nd at the Gagosian Beverly Hills Gallery there. Titus is also the founder of a nonprofit NXTHVN, which works with young black and brown artists. For more on that, and you should certainly go the website, check out NXTHVN.com. "Exhibiting Forgiveness" is in theaters now. Go see it.

And if you see something I should see, tell me about it. I'm at VictorBlackwell on the socials, Instagram, X and TikTok. Thank you for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish starts right now.

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