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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Why Was Sheriff's Office In FL Making Crack Cocaine; Advocacy Group: White House Initiative Is "Too Little, Too Late"; Rhetoric Escalates Over Deportations As Dems Vow Resistance; White House Releases Strategy To Fight Anti-Islam, Anti-Arab Hate; New Report Shows Fewer Minorities Are Choosing To Become Teachers; Remembering Acclaimed Poet And Activist Nikki Giovanni. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired December 14, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Up in the legal system because of it. And later, the Biden administration has just released their plan to fight Islamophobia. But there are some groups that this is meant to protect who are not happy with this. We're going to speak with the leader of one advocacy organization that says, listen, it's five weeks left in the administration. It's too little, too late.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Looking forward to it. We'll be watching.

BLACKWELL: Thank you very much. Let's start the show.

First of all, we are still, what, five weeks, as I said, from Inauguration Day. And we've already seen the start of our first big political and legal battle. President-Elect Trump's plans to go hard on immigration as soon as he takes office. And the tension between the incoming administration and some Democratic leaders is already escalating around mass deportations. It kicked off this week with these comments from Trump's border czar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM HOMAN, INCOMING TRUMP "BORDER CZAR": It all (inaudible) in January 21st. And we're going to start right here in Chicago, Illinois.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: That's Tom Homan. He's putting the city of Chicago on notice. And now the Chicago mayor and Illinois governor are responding. Listen now to Governor JB Pritzker on Homan's authority.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. JB PRITZKER, (D) ILLINOIS: I'm open to a dialogue with him. I will say that he is not a -- he does not have the authority to do the things that he's talked about. Being a border czar is not an official position in the government and will be up to the president of the United States and up to the leaders of the Customs and Border Patrol to make decisions about how we'll manage the border. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Congresswoman Delia Ramirez, whom we've had on this show to talk about immigration posted on X, "Tom Holman, the next time you come to Illinois third, a district made stronger and more powerful by immigrants, you better be ready to face the resistance. You may think that Chicago needs to get out of the way of Trump's plans for mass deportation, but we plan to get all up in your way." Homan told Fox News, "Game on." But he's focusing his ire on Chicago's mayor. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOMAN: What's my authority? Look, I'm not a prosecutor. I won't be prosecuting the case. Probably a bad choice of words. A U.S. Attorney will prosecute the case. ICE will file the charges. And what the mayor's not speaking about is the two things I said. He can step aside and not help the men and women, ICE. But if he knowingly impedes us, that's a violation of federal law. If he conceals an illegal alien from ICE, that's a violation law and we got a strong AG coming in, Pam, bonding. And we're not going to allow that to happen.

He cannot assist us. That's his decision. But he's not going to prevent us from enforcing laws enacted by Congress and signed by President. We're going to do this job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson is with us now. This is his first national interview responding to Trump's border czar.

Mr. Mayor, good to have you back on the show. Let's start here. Your reaction to Homan saying he's going to come after you if you stand in his way?

MAYOR BRANDON JOHNSON, (D) CHICAGO: Well, you know, unfortunately, first of all, good morning and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays and Happy New Year to the people of the globe. Look, the President-elect and the former President of the United States of America Trump has demonstrated an incredible disdain for people. And my responsibility as mayor of the city of Chicago is to invest in people, to protect people and connect them to the resources that are ultimately needed in order to build not just a better, stronger, safer Chicago, but to build an economy that's sustainable. You know, this president has shown disdain towards not just immigrants, but lovers of public education. He is dead set on abolishing the entire Education Department.

As a former public school teacher, as a product of public education, as someone who sends my children to public schools, working people around this country want public education to work. He has shown an incredible animus towards public housing. Public housing has been the way in which families have found true stability, their ability to experience a human right. He has demonstrated a contempt towards vouchers, which would ultimately make it hard for families to access affordable homes. We've built 3,600 affordable homes in the city of Chicago since I've been in office. He's also shown a great deal of just evilness towards the Department

of the Environment. He doesn't believe in science. 20 percent of the world's fresh water is right here in the city of Chicago. We can build a green, blue economy to create real, sustainable opportunities for people. And so he has not just shown animus towards immigrants. He has shown a great deal of animus towards working people across the city of Chicago. And it is my responsibility and is my joy to protect all residents of this beloved city.

[08:05:09]

BLACKWELL: Mr. Mayor, I want to keep the scope of this conversation on immigration, and let me hear some more here from Tom Holman. Control room, let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOMAN: I don't want them to be immigration officers. I want them when they arrest an illegal alien for a serious crime. I'm just asking to find them. I don't want you to hold them a minute more than you have to hold them under your charges. But just work with us and take these public safety threats not only off the streets but out of the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: So let me ask you specifically if you have someone in CPD takes custody of someone who fits that scenario, that profile, accused of a violent crime in the country illegally, does local law allow you to inform ICE and will you do that?

JOHNSON: Here's what the local law does. First of all, you know, as a sanctuary city, you know this ordinance was birthed by the first black mayor in the history of Chicago, Mayor Harold Washington. He understood during the Reagan administration, as foreign policies disrupted Central and South America, he made it very clear that the city of Chicago will serve as refuge for people around the globe. And so there's a strong black liberation presentation that comes out of the city of Chicago as it relates to being a sanctuary city.

Look, the law is very clear. Local police officers are not federal agents. That is clear. This so-called border czar seems to be getting educated more and more throughout, you know, his, I guess, his speaking tour. It's unfortunate though, that there is an abominable ignorance that exists within the Trump administration that continues to displace and cause chaos. If they're really serious about reforming the immigration policies in this country, President-elect Donald Trump has control over the Senate, the House as well as the judicial branch of government.

President Biden put together a bipartisan bill to strengthen the border, to create more judges so that we can move asylum seekers through the process faster. Donald Trump intentionally blocked that piece of legislation. Immigration reform policy is something that everyone in this country wants to see happen.

BLACKWELL: Sure. JOHNSON: We have not seen any substantive laws change in over 30

years. Use the power that he has to actually bring about transformation. Once they get serious about this, I think there are many people who are willing to work with --

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about what this administration. Let's talk about what this administration says they will do and then what you will do. Back to that scenario. If you have someone who is in CPD's custody, who is undocumented in this country, accused of a serious crime you will not inform ICE because the law does not allow it or because you are choosing not to.

JOHNSON: The ordinance is very clear. Local police officers are not federal agents.

BLACKWELL: That's a -- go ahead.

JOHNSON: If there is someone here who was committed -- if there is someone here who has committed a violent crime, that's not someone you have to look for. Once they're arrested and they are in custody, then the law, of course, is fully prepared to prosecute. This is not about immigration reform. This is about an administration --

BLACKWELL: Sure, but that's not answer to the question.

JOHNSON: -- who's determine -- don't fear into the people of this country.

BLACKWELL: Mr. Mayor, that's not answer to the question. And listen, I'm not passing judgment on whichever decision you make, but I'd like a specific answer to the question. You are choosing not to do it or the law will not allow it. You've said several times that Chicago officials.

JOHNSON: I'll be absolutely clear. Thank you for the question. I'll be absolutely clear. What the Trump administration has called for is for local police departments around the country to behave as ICE agents in sanctuary cities that is not permissible. If there is someone here in this country that commits a violent crime and they are undocumented, they are in the hands of the law. That is clear. So this is why -- this is actually, I think, a waste of exercise, quite frankly, because here we have, in this country, working people who are struggling every single day to make ends meet. Whether you are looking for a publicly funded education system, affordable homes, creating opportunities for our young people here in Chicago, our enrollment in our community colleges have gone up to 4 people.

BLACKWELL: Mr. Mayor, hold on for a second, please. Again, I do want to keep this scope of the conversation. I said to the top of the exchange between the incoming border czar and with you. One other question here on. You said that your role here is to protect the people in your city. Trump has said that this is a presidential priority. If they decide to go into schools or they want to execute stings at workplaces or churches, in the next administration, will CPD stand in their way, prevent ICE from going into these places to look for undocumented migrants? [08:10:24]

JOHNSON: Chicago Police Department will not participate in ICE raids. It isn't against the ordinance.

BLACKWELL: Different question. Different question. Will they stand in the way? Will they they work to prevent those executions?

JOHNSON: I'm telling you what they're going to do. I'm telling you what the law permits them to do. They are not ICE agents. And particularly as you talk about this moral argument that is being put forth in this moment, look, there are people all over this country who are going to celebrate this holiday season, the birth of Jesus Christ, who flee political and religious oppression as a refugee, as an asylum seeker. I find it to be absolutely reprehensible that we have an administration that doesn't believe in the basic public accommodations and human rights that my people have fought for, whether it's education, whether it's immigration.

You know, my people have been a part of the great migration throughout this entire country. And we had federal entities that worked to not only prevent us from integrating but made it impossible for us to access public accommodations. This is about an administration that's coming in that has an incredible disdain towards working people in this country, whether you're black, brown, white, Asian. We want to make sure that the people of Chicago are protected and invested in. His threat is far greater than his attack against migrants and immigrants.

BLACKWELL: One more question on immigration.

JOHNSON: It's a (inaudible) are against the sensibility of the people of this city in this country. And I'm going to stand firm in my moral position to protect people.

BLACKWELL: Okay, I'm glad you said that. Because the president's team is threatening to withhold federal funds from cities that stand in the way of their mass deportation effort. Are you willing to risk those federal dollars? Of course, if they try to hold back federal monies, the city will sue, the state will sue. But that delay may cost the people of Chicago in resources for as long as it's litigated. Are you willing to risk that federal money to impede, if you will, their deportation efforts?

JOHNSON: Look, no one is going to harbor or protect criminals. Whether you have come here as an immigrant or undocumented or otherwise. The threat that this president has demonstrated that he's willing to execute across this country, the threat against environmental justice, education, housing, these threats are real. As a city and as a country, we have to demand that the federal government does its job by investing in people. It's the same spirit that was invoked in the 60s when federal administrations refused to invest in education and housing.

BLACKWELL: I'm asking a different question, Mr. Mayor. Are you willing to risk federal money? JOHNSON: The risk is when you have a president who is not committed to

investing in people. The real threat is the president-elect who is coming in. And as a country, we have to stay on our moral conviction.

BLACKWELL: One more time, Mr. Mayor. One more time, Mr. Mayor. Are you willing to risk, with the administration withholding federal dollars, billions of dollars, part of your budget for 2025, if they decide to hold that money back because you will impede in their mass deportation? Are you willing to take that risk?

JOHNSON: I'm willing to stand up for our democracy and for the people of Chicago. Any administration that would threaten to keep black folks, brown folks, white families, Asian families from accessing education, housing, growing our small businesses. As a country, we have to defend the rights of people across this country. And the city of Chicago has been front and center of standing up for democracy, and we will continue to do that. This is about investing in people, protecting people, and connecting people to the resources that they deserve. And any administration that would look to disrupt the sensibility of public accommodations, consider them a threat to our democracy.

It is the right of every single resident in this city, in this country, to have access to education, housing, health care, quality food, and an environment. And any administration that will threaten those sensibilities, as a nation, we have to rise up and speak. And certainly, Chicago will be front and center in that regard.

BLACKWELL: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, I thank you for your time this morning. Enjoy the Saturday.

JOHNSON: I will. And Merry Christmas, everyone.

BLACKWELL: You too. So in the 80s and 90s, law enforcement in South Florida made crack cocaine to sell as part of drug stings. And now a prosecutor is fighting to undo the convictions of people who got caught up trying to buy it. He joins me next.

Plus, a new report shows a crucial widening gap between students and teachers, how teachers are less like their classes, and what it means for those students.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:03]

BLACKWELL: A state prosecutor in Florida is working to vacate the convictions of people who bought crack cocaine made by the Broward County Sheriff's Office in Florida. Yes, crack made by the cops. So here's the story.

Between 1988 and 1990, the sheriff's office made its own crack to sell on the streets so the deputies could then arrest the people for buying it. The Florida Supreme Court described it as outrageous. And now, 30 years later, as many as 2,600 people still have those arrests and convictions on their record. And Broward County State Attorney Harold Pryor wants to bring justice to those people, and he joins me now.

Mr. State Attorney, thank you for being with me. First question, why was Broward County making crack? I imagine that they seized crack in some of their stings. If they had to use it as part of this, why were they making their own?

HAROLD PRYOR, BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: Well, first and foremost, good morning, Victor. Happy holiday to you and the team over there at CNN. This was an extremely disturbing situation that came to my attention. As you know, during the 80s and early 90s. That was at the height of the crack epidemic in this country. And so how this all came to be, at a Greyhound bus station, in a locker, there was about a kilo of cocaine powder cocaine that was found. It was abandoned, and it wasn't pursuant to any type of vet investigation that was in Broward County at that time.

And so the Broward County Sheriff's Department sees that, and pursuant to the department's policy, they were supposed to destroy the powder cocaine or the kilos of cocaine that was found in that locker. Rather than destroy that abandoned evidence, they decided to go to their crime lab and submit it to a chemist and cook up crack cocaine to then distribute in a reverse sting in primarily black and brown neighborhoods and also advantageously, within a thousand feet of certain schools and certain buildings that are prohibited by statute.

BLACKWELL: And so now you are working to vacate those convictions. Listen, it's been 30, in some cases more than 35 years. Why now and why and what does it take to make that happen for these people?

PRYOR: Yes, look, I mean, when I looked at it, I was two years old at the time, right when all of this happened. And the reason why it's important to me, and I think it's important to so many in our surrounding community and the United States as a whole. We lived during the crack epidemic. I grew up in a generation, or I was a part of a generation of youth that were negatively impacted by the crack epidemic, whether it be by the violence that was exhibited in our communities or the addiction that my loved ones and close friends and family members had due to the drug, but also the failed policies by decision makers that negatively impacted our communities for the worse.

And so it was important for me, once this was brought to my attention, that we do the right thing. Look, these files are in our archives department, our archives storage unit. Old boxes with dust tucked away in a storage unit. And so we were in the process of following through with our statutory permissible retention schedules, where we could destroy certain records past a certain period. This was brought to my attention by my archives department and attorneys in my office who had worked here during that time period. And it was unsettling to them at the time when all of this was going on. And when I read it, quite frankly, Victor, I thought it was from a bad episode of The Wire. I thought it was a script that they were. They wasn't going to use it anymore. And I was. I was unsettled by that.

And actually, it disturbed my spirit. It shocked my conscience when I read these files to think that a law enforcement agency would cook up a drug, would manufacture a drug, and then distribute it to communities.

BLACKWELL: And let me add this, because I went back and read the ruling from this Florida state Supreme Court decision in '93, and this section jumped off the page. In addition to the manufacturing of the crack, this is a quote, "The state conceded an oral argument that some of the crack cocaine was lost during the reverse sting operations. This lack of strict inventory control over the crack cocaine resulted in an undetermined amount of the dangerous drug escaping into the community." And again, they did this within a thousand feet of a school.

The damage here, not only to the people who were caught up in this, but to the people who potentially were addicted after this government crack got into the community, is immeasurable.

PRYOR: It is. It is. And, you know, I say this all the time. You know, it's never too late to do the right thing, and it isn't. However, there's nothing I can do that can give those people, those individuals, their time back, those that may be suffering from addiction, those that have been negatively impacted, because now they have a criminal record. And it probably set them down a path that they didn't want to go down. And so it's important for me and my office to volunteer our time.

[08:25:06]

We're dedicated, we're committed. I have attorneys and support staff members who are going to volunteer their time on top of their already busy work schedules to try to look through these files. And eventually, we plan to seal and expunge those records if they're eligible. After we vacate those pleas and file the appropriate motions to vacate and clear them off on the docket and then move to have their records sealed or expunged.

[08:25:30]

And those who may not be eligible because of the level or the degree of the offense. We're committed to working with community-based organizations that have a legal arm to petition our state government to at least have their cases put before the clemency board and have those records removed. We're dedicated. We want to see this thing through.

BLACKWELL: Broward State Attorney Harold Pryor, thank you for your time this morning. Thank you for the work you're doing. Listen, some of these people are probably long dead as well. It's been 30, 35 years. But I know this means something to their families, too. Thank you for being with me and sharing this story.

PRYOR: Victor, if I may, can I share information? If there's anyone out there that may have been affected by this, they can go to our website. They can send us an email at casereviewrordsao.com. We also have a dedicated hotline, which is 954-831-6513. That's 954-831-6543. If you've been impacted cases from 1988 to 1990.

BLACKWELL: All right, thank you, sir. So the White House is finally out with a plan to fight Islamophobia. But one Muslim advocacy group says five weeks left in the administration is too little too late.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:08]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: This week the Biden-Harris administration released the first national strategy to combat Islamophobia and anti-Arab hate. The White House says the strategy has four priorities. Increase awareness of hatred against Muslims and Arabs and broaden recognition of these communities' heritages. Improve safety and security for Muslims and Arabs. Tackle discrimination against Muslims and Arabs and appropriately accommodate their religious practices. And continue to build cross community solidarity and collective action to counter hate.

Now, the Council on American Islamic Relations says it's too little too late and the strategy, quote, fails to promise any changes to federal programs that perpetuate anti-Muslim discrimination on a massive scale. CAIR's National Deputy Director Edward Ahmed Mitchell is here with us. Good to have you back.

EDWARD AHMED MITCHELL, NATIONAL DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CAIR: Yes.

BLACKWELL: I want to talk about those federal programs in just a moment, but I understand that CAIR's count of anti-Muslim incidents over 2023 was above 8,000, the highest number in the nearly 30 years that you've been keeping count. So what does this mean now?

MITCHELL: So first, anti-Muslim bigotry and the interconnected problem of anti-Arab racism are out of control. It's always been a problem in America for decades, but the past it's exploded. We've seen horrific hate crimes, employment discrimination, attacks on college students. It's very bad out there.

And so normally we would celebrate a White House strategy to combat Islamophobia. But the problem is, they've released it with a month left, so it can't have any real impact. It doesn't address government driven Islamophobia like the watch list. And it doesn't address the elephant in the room, which is Gaza, and the impact that's having on Islamophobia. So there are positive things in this strategy, but it's too little too late.

BLACKWELL: Talk to me more about these federal programs that you say perpetuate anti-Muslim hate.

MITCHELL: Yes. So the watch list, for example, this is a program set up by the FBI during the Bush administration and it's a -- a list of Muslims, essentially over 2 million names, most of them are Muslim names, many of them Americans. And you get put on this list if the FBI thinks there's something suspicious about you. And you're not told that you're on the list. And this can have impact on your ability to open a bank account, to travel, to get a job, because the list is distributed -- distributed across the country.

And so I'll give you one example. We had an American-Muslim who was an army veteran who would get pulled over all the time by the police in Oklahoma and didn't know why. And they'd pull him over at gunpoint, and for no reason. And eventually found out he was on the watch list. So we've had to sue the Biden administration to stop misusing this list. And they fought us.

We went all the way to the Supreme Court and we won, a nine zero verdict earlier this year. But the Biden administration fought us on that. And this strategy does not commit to changing the watch list at all.

BLACKWELL: So the administration says that of the more than 100 actions and initiatives that most of them have already been implemented, the rest they plan to release on Inauguration Day. As we're going into the, I see the deep exhale here, into the Trump administration. As we know, Trump has used Palestinian as a slur. He called for a ban on non-American-Muslims, instituted a travel ban of mostly Muslim countries, suggested surveillance of American-Muslims, has said that Islam, quote, hates us. But he also courted Arab- Americans and Muslims during the campaign. Where does this go, do you think, if they release it on the day that he becomes president?

MITCHELL: Look, this is the problem with the timing, right? The White House did not prioritize this issue the way they should have. To release it now, it's the worst timing ever. Number one, because the war on Gaza is driving the increased anti-Muslim bigotry in America. So President Biden wants to reduce Islamophobia. He should stop that war, and that will help calm things down.

But then with President Trump coming into office a month from now, what good is the strategy going to do? We'll see whether or not he decides to adopt any of it, implement any of it. He has had a softened tone towards Muslims in the past few months. But many of the people around him are anti-Muslim extremists, are anti-Muslim bigots. So I have no expectation that the good things in this strategy will be implemented in the next four years. We'll push for it.

[08:35:15]

But the bottom line is President Biden dropped the ball here. He should have done this earlier. He should have put more teeth behind the strategy and he should have addressed the root cause of the increase in Islamophobia, which is the war on Gaza.

BLACKWELL: We should also say that the strategy to fight anti-Semitism was released in May of 2023, long before this one came out. One more thing happening today, 12-year-old from Gaza will arrive in Atlanta, first child to arrive in the city through this U.S. based nonprofit dedicated to medical assistance. Several members of her family were killed. She had some cranial damages, burns across her body. President-elect says there will be no refugees coming in from Gaza. Do you expect that in five weeks to also mean girls like Habiba who are here for humanitarian purposes?

MITCHELL: Yes. Look, sadly, under President Biden and President Trump, I don't expect any real difference because you have not seen a bunch of refugees coming here for healing under President Biden and President Trump has made it clear he doesn't want any refugees coming. So sadly, there are many people like her who are dying at this very moment in Gaza, many people like her who want to get out of Gaza and they're not able to because president Biden has not changed his policy.

I'm so happy this young girl is going to get out and get the treatment she needs, God willing. But there are so many more who need it. And the key thing is to stop the war. That is the thing that needs to happen so people can get out whether going to Europe, Egypt, America to get treatment, that's fine. But the war has to stop for that to happen.

BLACKWELL: Edward Ahmed Mitchell, deputy director of CAIR, thank you so much.

MITCHELL: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: So what happens when the diversity of teachers does not keep up with the diversity of the students? Well, ask an expert who is concerned about a new report looking into who is not joining the profession.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:39]

BLACKWELL: There's a new report that shows that fewer college graduates are going now into the teaching profession. The National Council on Teacher Quality Study finds that only 21 percent of teachers now are from historically disadvantaged racial groups. That's compared to 49 percent of the students. That is a massive gap that is continuing to widen.

Let's talk about this now with Dr. Tequilla Brownie. She's the CEO of TNTP, formerly the New Teacher Project, an education nonprofit. It's one of several groups backing a campaign to add 1 million teachers of color to the workforce by 2031. Dr. Brownie, thank you for being with me. I think most people, let's start here, understand the value and virtue of diverse teacher workforce and having that reflect the students. But is it measurable? Are the outcomes better if the -- the teaching staff looks more like the students?

DR. TEQUILLA BROWNIE, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, TNTP: Well, good morning, Victor, and thank you so much for having me on the show this morning. And your question is absolutely the fundamental question. And that question is what all needs to be true for all students to thrive in the -- in their educational experience as well as in careers and in life. And it's no one thing. We know that multiple interventions are needed to help our young people gain the way that they need to academically.

And we also know that the research is clear. A more diverse teacher workforce does lead to improved academic outcomes for all students, including and particularly for students of color.

BLACKWELL: And so why is this happening? There are teachers, increasing numbers of -- of minority teachers, but it's not keeping up with the pace of the percentage of the classroom that is from these groups.

BROWNIE: That's exactly right. At TNTP, we actually co-founded a campaign in 2021 called the One Million Teachers of Color. When we did the calculation, we found that we would need to add 1 million new educators of color by the year 2030 if we wanted to close that gap, the diversity gap that you mentioned. And so we've been collaborating with policymakers, with elected officials, with leaders in all sectors, across national levels, state levels and local levels to actually do the work to increase that number. We know some of the things that would turn that number around and we need to make sure that we're implementing those.

BLACKWELL: And it's -- not only the number of new teachers who are from these groups entering the classroom. There's also a disparity as it relates to turnover nationally, according to the report, annual turnover is 19 percent for teachers of color, 15 percent for white teachers. The racial wealth gap and -- and student loan debt, we know that those are realities for a lot of minorities to a greater extent than they are for -- for white teachers. Is it purely economic?

[08:45:00]

BROWNIE: So -- so economics is absolutely one of the variables. It certainly is not the only one. Many teachers like myself are first gen college students. And when first gen co -- when first gen students enter their professions, to your point, do the math, is it logical to go into a profession that's not going to have the return on your investment?

Now, unfortunately, the path to getting to teaching does include several financial hurdles. There is also the work of once you get into the profession, what are the working conditions? And what we find is that between the barriers to entry, financial seat time and otherwise, and then once teachers of color get into the field, we're not doing enough to retain them. So it's not an either or. We have to do more both to increase the number of teachers through recruitment, but also elevate the profession to make sure it's actually a meaningful, worthwhile and tenable job and then do the work to retain our strong, effective, diverse teachers.

BLACKWELL: You know, I -- I thought back to some of those black male teachers I had when I was in elementary school. Clarence Jones stands out in my na -- in my head and kind of the things we expected from him, the engagement we had from him that we didn't have from some of the -- the white teachers, and this is something actually that I didn't consider, is that may be one of the reasons that there's this disparity. Black teachers, minority teachers, asked to mentor students, discipline students, translate for families, that invisible tax for which they're not compensated for those roles.

BROWNIE: That's exactly right. And I mean, to your point about our own experience, I grew up in rural Arkansas. My school district, River Crest, was a great educational experience for me. The good news is that I did have teachers that looked like me. You know, the research shows that if a young person has multiple teachers, at least two that look like them, they're more likely to graduate from co -- from high school, more likely to go on and graduate from college.

And so fortunately, those were experiences that I had. And sounds like you, but we're not doing increasing the number of teachers of color --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BROWNIE: -- at the pace as you see that the diversity of the student population is changing.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Tequilla Brownie, thank you so much for having this conversation with us and we will continue to follow your campaign.

Poetry is art. And coming up, we'll remember one of the greats, Nikki Giovanni, with the help of someone who collaborated with the iconic poet, activist and academic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

[08:52:18]

BLACKWELL: "Before I Let Go," a classic. Now, the song is also a certified platinum classic. The milestone the Recording Industry Association of America gives to songs that sell a million units. The song was released back on January 9th, 1981, nearly 44 years ago. But the new milestone comes just three months after Frankie Beverly passed at the age of 77. His band Maze described the song as the unofficial theme of summer and any gathering of people who have come to party. That is the truth.

Art offers sanctuary to everyone willing to open their hearts as well as their eyes. That's a line of a poem by Nikki Giovanni, who we lost this week at age 81. Nikki Giovanni was an acclaimed poet, an activist, an author, professor, an icon of the black arts and civil rights movement. She knew and worked with Rosa Parks, Aretha Franklin, James Baldwin, Nina Simone, Muhammad Ali, Tupac.

So for this latest edition of Art is Life, I spoke with Shinique Smith. She worked on an installation that featured Nikki -- Nikki Giovanni's poetry and voice. I asked Shinique to reflect on that project and what collaborating with such an influential figure was like.

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SHINIQUE SMITH, VISUAL ARTIST: I'm Shinique Smith. I'm in Los Angeles, California. And I am a visual artist. I grew up in Baltimore, Washington area. And I wrote graffiti as a teenager and was inspired by Japanese calligraphy. I take bits of poems, song lyrics, and mix, remix the language, cutting it, sculpting it, adding objects.

The images you're looking at are from an installation I created titled No Thief to Blame. It was installed in 2007 at the National Portrait Gallery, which was part of an early recognition of hip hop as an art form. Nikki agreed to write a poem or she submitted a poem and she read it. It was recorded. And her vocalization was piped on a speaker within my installation, which was created directly on the wall, she says, just out of yellow, so you'll just shadow with gray this time. And just shy of metallic blue, you will just fill in with electric orange.

She's talking about graffiti. She's talking about being an artist. The improvisation of hip hop, improvisation of graffiti, that is not just accidental. I got to do a piece riffing off the words of one of my idols. Being all of who she was, it was an example of how to stay to your truth. She found words for things that people couldn't say, whether they agreed with her or not.

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[08:55:18]

BLACKWELL: A new book of Giovanni's poetry titled "The Last Book" is scheduled to be published in fall 2025. Now if you want to see more of Shinique's work, she has two solo shows on view. One is called Parade at the Ringling Museum of Art in Sarasota that closes in January. The other is called Torque and it's on view at the Indianapolis Museum of Art at new fields until June 2025.

Now if you see something or someone I should see, tell me. I'm on Instagram, TikTok, X, and Bluesky. You can watch full episodes of our show at CNN.com/Victor-Blackwell-First-Of-All, or listen to our show wherever you get your podcast.

Thanks for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday. Smerconish is up after the break.

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