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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Lawmakers Avoid Shutdown, But Not Cuts Or Dem Frustration; Vote Avoid Government Shutdown Divides Trump Resistance; Some Senate Dems Join Republicans In Vote To Avert Gov't Shutdown; Iowa school Cancels African American Read-In; DOJ Ends Prosecution Of Petrochemical Plant For Polluting Carcinogen; A New Lawsuit Challenges DOGE Cuts At Haskell University; Baltimore Center Stage Sticks Up For Diversity Despite Federal Funding Risk. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired March 15, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:01:02]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first of all, you do only a matter of time before the federal agency with the word minority in it got targeted for cuts. Well late last night, we learned that President Trump signed a new executive order scaling back staff and functions at seven government entities. One of them is the Minority Business Development Agency. It was established during the Nixon administration. Enshrined into federal law in 2021. It is one of the only federal agencies focused exclusively on developing and advocating for minority owned businesses.

Also impacted the Community Development Financial Institutions Fund. It helps underserved communities across the country access funding. That order mandates that these agencies, quote, "reduce the performance of their statutory functions and associated personnel to the minimum presence and function required by law."

I want to highlight that because it's an example of the sort of cuts Democratic leaders in the Senate seem to argue is easier to prevent the administration from making by supporting the Republican bill to keep the government open. Here's how Senator Chuck Schumer explained his rationale.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) MINORITY LEADER: A government shutdown would be far worse. A government shutdown gives Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and DOGE almost complete power as to what to close down because they can decide what is an essential service. We all know that Musk, and DOGE, and Trump want to decimate the federal government and letting them shut down the government, allowing them to shut down the government, they would have done it.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLACKWELL: Only one Democrat voted yes in the House. Asked about his

fellow Democratic leader, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries said this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you lost confidence in him? The fact that you guys see this so differently.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D) MINORITY LEADER: Next question.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Next question. Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn joins us from his home state of South Carolina. Congressman, good to have you back.

Last time you were on, it was right at after an averted shutdown. You supported that one. You voted against this bill in the House. Let me start with this question. Chuck Schumer says that it was bad. It would have been worse to shut down the government. Do you agree with that?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN, (D) SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, thank you very much for having me, Victor. Well, I do. There are the degrees to everything. This is a bad bill, a very bad bill. And I voted against it. All but one Democrat from the House side voted against it. And quite frankly, we do feel that the Senate Democrats should have held the line.

Now, we all have various views on what is best in this particular instance both are bad. And I just think allowing them to go forward is the worst of the worst.

BLACKWELL: So you say that the Senate Democrats should have held the line. I want to play for you what Leader Schumer, minority leader there in the Senate said of the criticism he's receiving from now, you, and other House Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHUMER: It's a lot different in the House. You could have voted against this CR and still not shut down the government. The Senate because of the 60-vote rule, you would have had to shut down the government and that was far worse an outcome.

The Senate and House are different. I respect what the House members did. I'm glad all of them voted against it. But as I say, it is much different in the Senate where if you would have voted against the bill and the bill would have gone down, the whole government would have shut down from one end to the other, creating dramatic and huge hardship for tens of millions of Americans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Right at the top of that, he pulled himself back from saying it's easier in the House and said it's different in the House. I'm sure you picked that up. Do you believe that it was worth it to shut down the government?

[08:05:06]

CLYBURN: Well, you never know about these things, Victor. You just have to work through them. I do believe, as I said, that this bill is so bad until I was willing to take a chance on the government shutdown. Now, just remember, we do not have a majority vote in either place.

And so, it will take votes of Republicans to set the government down no matter what. We just would not be giving them aid and comfort as we're doing in this instance. And so we can debate these things. I have no idea what the other vote would have led to, but I was willing to take a chance because I think it's so. This building is so bad.

BLACKWELL: What is your answer to the question that Minority Leader Jeffries passed on? What's your degree of confidence in the leadership of Chuck Schumer?

CLYBURN: Well, Chuck and I served together in the House. He was in the House for a long time. And I've always admired his dedication to the craft and that's what I call the art of politics. But you can disagree on things, and I disagree with him on this.

But you know, Victor, I often tell people I stayed married to the same woman for 58 years, so I know what disagreement is all about.

BLACKWELL: Yes, but you took a vow. You didn't take a vow to Chuck Schumer. So, do you believe in his leadership? I mean, in the minority, to hold the line, as you call it, you've got to have a leader on the other side who's going to do that. Midweek it sounded like Chuck Schumer was leading that hold of the line. Do you at the end of the week have that, that confidence that of the next time he will?

CLYBURN: Yes, I do. I have confidence in Chuck. No question about that. I just disagree with it on this particular issue. It's not the first time I've disagreed with Chuck Schumer. Believe me, it's not.

BLACKWELL: Let me read for you something that Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez posted on Blue Sky. "Among the material devastation to everyday people, Senate Dems have now blown a hole in their ability to work with the House. We had an agreed-upon plan. House took immense risk. Then Senate turned around midway and destroyed it with a fear- based inexplicable abdication. They own what happens next."

Do you agree with that the Senate Dems blew a hole in the ability to work with House Dems?

CLYBURN: Well, a hole. I don't know how big the hole is. No question about that. The next time around. You know, there are times when we are working with the Senate on things like this, and they will ask us to hold the line on something, and we try to do it, and when we don't, it ruptures that relationship. So, in this instance, he has blown a hole in that relationship. I'm not saying the hole is so big that it cannot be mended. We've got

to. We've got to get beyond our disagreements and do the things that are best for the American people. And every bill that comes before the House or the Senate will have things in it that we may like or not like. But we cannot allow for our pursuit towards a more perfect union to be ruptured by any one vote.

It may be a time to check on what the next step may be, and that's what the time seems to be today. So we'll have to check on things, but we cannot allow ourselves to become the story going forward. It's got to stay focused on what's best for the American people. And that means sometimes we'll have to step outside of our comfort zones to do so.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about what Leader Jeffries has said is coming next. Tuesday is supposed to be some day of action, March 18. There are some Democrats who are saying the action was supposed to happen this week. The action was supposed to defend against what he has called in his statement, the destruction from Republicans. Those are his words. Pushback against Republicans.

What's a day of action across? Are those rallies when people look to the members of Congress to take the action.

CLYBURN: I would call them rallies. Some of them will be rallies. There'll be different kinds of actions. I will not be having a rally, but I will be taking action throughout my congressional district, not just Tuesday, but Wednesday, Monday, and Wednesday as well.

[08:10:13]

But people will be doing different things. In order to get through my rural district, I do a combination of virtual stuff in order to be more effective. But we'll be taking action that will be defined differently in different places and so that is what I think he means by that.

BLACKWELL: Congressman Clyburn, always good to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

BLACKWELL: All right. For the first time, we're seeing the moment that pro-Palestinian protester Mahmoud Khalil was detained by law enforcement. And the Trump administration vows a broader crackdown on more Columbia University protesters. A member of Khalil's legal team joins me live.

Plus, I speak to a Pulitzer Prize winner who is stepping up to host a read-in today for kids whose Black History Month book event was canceled because of vague DEI rules.

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[08:15:48]

BLACKWELL: Today marks one week since Columbia graduate Mahmoud Khalil was detained, and we still don't know on what charges, but he was involved in campus protests against the war in Gaza. And for the first time, we are now seeing video of the arrest taken by his wife, who is a U.S. Citizen and eight months pregnant.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? You're going to be under arrest, so turn around. Turn around, turn around. Turn around. Turn around.

NOOR ABDALLA, MAHMOUD KHALIL'S WIFE: Okay, okay. Let's -- let's not. Okay, okay. He's not resisting. He's giving me his phone. Okay. He's not. I -- I understand. He's not resisting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to have to come with us.

MAHMOUD KHALIL: Yes, I'm going with you. Don't worry.

ABDALLA: You guys really don't need to be doing all of that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Well, Khalil is still in ICE custody in Louisiana, and the government is vowing to broaden its crackdown on Khalil's fellow protesters. The deputy Attorney General announced Friday that the Justice Department is now also investigating whether those involved in last year's protests at Colombia violated federal anti-terrorism laws.

A key member of Khalil's legal team is with us, Ramzi Kassem. He was at the first hearing in this case earlier this week. He's a co- founder, and he's the founder and co-director, I should say, of CLEAR. It's a legal nonprofit and clinic and a law professor at City University of New York.

Ramsey, good morning to you. Let me start here by playing something from Secretary of State Marco Rubio. This is Friday. In the context of your client's arrest. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: In the days to come, you should expect more visas will be revoked as we identify people that we should never have allowed in because they lied to us. When they said they were coming here to be students, they didn't say they were coming here to occupy university buildings and vandalize them and tear them apart and hold campuses hostage. If they had told us that, we would never have given them a student visa. Now that they've done it. We will revoke those visas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: What's your reaction to that framework from Secretary Rubio?

RAMZI KASSEM, ATTORNEY FOR MAHMOUD KHALIL: Well, it's a deliberately misleading framework, Victor. I mean, these cases, starting with Mr. Khalil's case, are fundamentally about speech. And, you know, if America is still a country where speech is free, then nothing like what happened to Mr. Khalil and his wife would be conceivable. This is an American family that's been ripped apart.

As you mentioned, his wife is a U.S. Citizen who's eight months pregnant. He himself is a US Person. He's a legal permanent resident of the United States. He had every reason to expect to be able to remain together, to welcome their first child next month, not to be taken in the night by government agents.

BLACKWELL: The question that so many journalists have been trying to get the answer to is what is the specific charge on which you are holding Mahmoud Khalil?

Michelle Martin spoke with Troy Edgar. She's at NPR. He's the deputy secretary of the Department of Homeland Security about specific conduct that Khalil engaged in that merit's removal. It goes on for maybe three minutes or so. We're going to play just a portion of their conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE MARTIN, NPR HOST: Is protesting a deportable offense?

TROY EDGAR, U.S. DEPUTY SEC. OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Like I said, you're focused on protest. I'm focused on as a visa process. He went through a legal process, came into the county and --

MARTIN: Are you saying that he lied on his application? He's a lawful permanent resident married to an American citizen.

EDGAR: I think if he would have declared he's a terrorist, we would have never let him in.

MARTIN: And what indeed he engaged in that constitutes terrorist activity?

EDGAR: I mean, Michelle, have you watched it on tv? It's pretty clear.

MARTIN: No, it isn't. Well, explain it to those of us who have not, or perhaps others have not. What exactly did you do?

EDGAR: Well, I think it's clear or we shouldn't be talking about it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: And again, that goes on for three minutes, and at the end, it just. There's no answer specifically what the charge is. What clarity do you have around that question?

KASSEM: Well, Victor, I'm really glad you're a colleague that such an outstanding job, you know, holding that official's feet to the fire and asking the right questions. Fundamentally, this is a case about speech. All Mr. Khalil has done is stand up for the human rights of Palestinians and the dignity and lives of Palestinians. He mediated between student protesters and the university. And so, as far as we can tell, based on the few documents that the government has released, the Secretary of State is -- the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio is invoking a rarely used provision in immigration law that basically allows him to put someone in removal proceedings if he, Rubio, believes that the person, their presence, their activities in the United States constitutes some kind of danger to U.S. Foreign policy interests.

[08:20:29]

So it's extremely vague. It's been very rarely used, and it certainly has never been used to punish speech. That was not the intention, you know, behind Congress when it made this law. And so, again, that just brings us back to the fundamental fact that the government here is very transparently retaliating against Mr. Khalil for his exercise of his First Amendment rights.

BLACKWELL: In the last 48 hours, Colombia announced that it suspended, expelled, or revoked the degrees of students who took part in that Hamilton Hall takeover 11 months ago. Mahmoud Khalil was not involved in that. But he's completed his coursework. He's expected to graduate in the spring. Has he been notified? Have you been notified about any potential that he might not receive that degree now?

KASSEM: No. We have no reason to believe that Mr. Khalil has completed the requirements for his degree. And I just want to add a little historical perspective.

Every generation of Columbia students, on every issue that you can think of, has taken over Hamilton Hall. The fact that the university is revoking degrees for that is really unusual. And it's a sign of complicity with what this administration is doing to student protesters.

You have to remember, in the civil rights movements, students at Columbia took over Hamilton Hall. In the anti-Vietnam War movement, students at Columbia took over Hamilton Hall. In the anti-apartheid movement, students at Columbia took over Hamilton Hall. And so, for the university now to revoke degrees on the basis of protest, that's not unprecedented at Columbia. That is a tradition of Columbia, right? That's a sign of complicity, and it's troubling.

BLACKWELL: Ramzi Kassem, thank you. So during Black History Month, the school district in Iowa backed away from an African-American read-in. They were concerned about losing funding, maybe because of anti-DEI rules. Well, today, an event in Waterloo. We'll try to make up for that. We'll talk with the organizer who stepped up for her hometown Pulitzer Prize winner Nikole Hannah-Jones of the 1619 Project. Stay with us.

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[08:27:02]

BLACKWELL: In Iowa today, the anti-DEI Crusade is making reading an act of resistance. For 19 years now, the University of Northern Iowa has hosted an African-American read-in for first graders. Well, this year, thousands of Iowa students again got the chance to read a best- selling book with an author and draw along with an illustrator during Black History Month. But not in Waterloo, Iowa. First graders there were left out.

Waterloo Community Schools say that they had to cancel participation in the reading because of the book "All Because You Matter". Now, it might be easy to guess why at this point. They cited uncertainty around federal diversity, equity, and inclusion rules.

Last month, the District Superintendent, Jared Smith, told the Waterloo Cedar Falls Courier newspaper, "our legal counsel is saying err on the side of caution. What we've heard is you're bucking the system. You can risk losing federal funding."

Here's the thing. According to the university, no other district pulled out. Waterloo's decision is also notable because the majority of district students are minorities. In a statement, author Tami Charles told us, "Part love letter, part anthem, I wrote all because you matter to remind young readers of their importance in this world, that their kindness, their effort and the legacy from which they come matters." She goes on to say, "In the face of adversity, I will continue to write and hope that my stories reach the readers who need it most."

Now part of that effort to keep reaching readers will happen today thanks to Waterloo's own Nikole Hannah-Jones. She set up her own African-American read-in her hometown. She's the founder of the 1619 Freedom School and the Pulitzer Prize winning creator of the 1619 Project.

She joins me now from Waterloo. Nikole, good morning to you. Before we talk about what you've planned today, let me ask about the decision to pull out. I read a letter to the editor on a local site quote from this pastor. "Pulling out of this event under the guise of protecting funding demonstrates a failure of leadership and a misalignment of values." He called it, "institutionalized timidity".

More than 70 other schools participated. Do you think Waterloo should have withdrawn?

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, WATERLOO NATIVE WHO ORGANIZED READ-IN: Well, no, I don't think that Waterloo should have withdrawn, but I can understand because of the climate we're in, how they came to that decision. But my understanding is someone actually complained about the book.

And so, as you know, the Trump administration has a tip line. They're asking people to report on school districts and other organizations that they don't think are complying with their anti-diversity directives. So, I can understand why a district would do that because we are seeing, you know, Columbia University, Johns Hopkins Universities, other K12 public school systems actually losing funding. And districts can't afford to lose millions of dollars in funding, especially a district like Waterloo which serves a very high-need population.

BLACKWELL: So tell me what you have planned today.

HANNAH-JONES: Yes, so when I found out that the district was withdrawing, I actually got really angry. You know, one, we do have achievement gap problem in this district and of course, all over the country, but also our children. It sends a message when, because the book is affirming of black children's existence, that would be a reason that they weren't allowed to participate in this read in.

So I decided to hold the read in myself as a big public event that we're hosting through the 1619 Freedom School. Tammy Charles is going to be there. So not only are the kids going to get access to her book, they're actually going to get access to her in real life and she's going to read that book live on the stage.

We also have, you know, the very acclaimed children's book author Jackie Woodson coming, as well as Derrick Barnes are all going to be on that stage. And so far we have more than 1,100 people who have registered. People are coming in, not just from across the state of Iowa, but from other states as well. Because I think people are really starting to get fed up with these regressive bans, these trying to strip black children and all children of all races of the freedom to learn.

BLACKWELL: Yeah. And so the school district pulled out of the program out of fear of non-compliance and a potential loss of funds. But correct me if I'm wrong, you're holding this at West High School, which is part of the district.

Does this event, or have you considered that this might also jeopardize that funding in a way that maybe just participating in the other event would not have?

I mean, we all know how much the president has highlighted you and the 1619 Project.

HANNAH-JONES: So the West High auditorium was -- West High is a public facility and the principal allows people to hold events there all of the time. And so the principal allowed us to, like any other member of the community, hold an event there.

So I don't think it should bring the district in jeopardy. But you don't know. I mean, that's kind of the point of how vague these directives are. Anything can be a violation. But what I also think is important is that communities do have to push back. They have to say that it is a society that is banning books, that is banning curriculum, that is trying to control how we can talk about members of our community in the classroom. That's not a free society.

And I think people, including many people in the district honestly are really excited about this opportunity to read as a communal act of resistance.

BLACKWELL: All right, Nikole Hannah-Jones, thanks so much for being with me and we'll be watching for pictures and videos of what happens today. Thanks so much. The residents of Cancer Alley let down again how a decision by the

Trump administration this week blocks a disease stricken community's fight for justice after exposure to pollution.

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[08:37:42]

BLACKWELL: This week, the Department of Justice dismissed a lawsuit they say will help in their goal to end diversity, equity and inclusion programs. But people in a vulnerable community say the decision could actually end up harming them.

LaPlace, Louisiana sits in the heart of what's called Cancer Alley, the town of just over 28,000 predominantly black residents that once had the highest risk in the country of developing cancer from air toxins. And attorneys say it's due to this plant owned by Denka, which makes a synthetic rubber found in wetsuits and electric insulations and other common products.

The factory emits a toxin called chloroprene, which was designated as a carcinogen by the Environmental Protection agency. Back in 2017, I visited LaPlace and spoke with some residents there affected by the toxins.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL (voice-over): The EPA tells us, 99 percent of the chloroprene that's emitted by facilities across the country comes from this plant.

In 2010, the EPA determined chloroprene as likely carcinogenic to humans, meaning study show, it likely causes cancer in humans. And the EPA says there are many other health problems associated with the exposure to chloroprene.

ROBERT TAYLOR III, RESIDENT NEAR A RUBBER FACTORY: I grew up with a chronic kidney disease all my life.

BLACKWELL (voice-over): Robert Taylor III says he grew up near the plant and that he was in and out of hospitals for most of his childhood. He moved away after high school and had no problems for more than 20 years. Then, just six months after moving back, Taylor says his kidneys failed. And Taylor says cancer diagnoses are common in his neighborhood.

TAYLOR: Husband and wife died from cancer across the street. Husband over here died from cancer, both of his sons got cancer. Where all these cancers coming from? These people filling us up with this poison.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Well, now the Justice Department under Trump is ending its case against the petrochemical plan and what the administration says helps dismantle radical DEI programs. But what is a case against a factory over air pollution have to do with DEI?

According to the administration, the dismissal reflects the department's renewed commitment to enforce environmental laws as Congress intended, consistently, fairly and without regard to race.

[08:40:00]

Lawsuit was originally brought by former President Joe Biden's EPA in their efforts to improve conditions in areas disproportionately harmed by decades of industrial pollution. Danka said the dismissal was long overdue and ends litigation they argue lacked legal merit.

Now for the families in LaPlace, the dismissal could bring more harm to their community. They say that is already fighting for the right to clean air.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALDINE WATKINS, LAPLACE RESIDENT: Let me live whatever time I have left. Let it be decent. We need clean air. We need help to get this done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Geraldine Watkins was another resident there of Cancer Alley that I met back in 2017 and for now it looks like her community will not be getting that help that she begged for, at least anymore.

Cancel classes, overflowing trash. A new lawsuit lays out the impacts the Trump administration's cuts are having on federal run tribal schools that you may not be aware of. A lawyer helping students fight back joins us next.

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[08:45:34]

BLACKWELL: A loss is not stopping a college basketball team from celebrating. Two weeks ago today, we told you the story of the women's basketball team at Haskell Indian Nations University. The coach was leading the team despite no pay after Trump ordered cuts to federally run Native American schools.

Now, they went on to win the game and their conference championship, but their quest for a national championship did ultimately end last night with a loss. But they're still winners in their Kansas community.

This week, Coach Strom was among their employees who were reinstated to their jobs. But there's still some cuts in place, and tribal nations and students are fighting back now with a lawsuit. The complaint lays out the impacts at the two schools run by the government, Haskell and Southwestern Indian Polytechnic Institute.

At Haskell, the suit says that financial aid was delayed, with some students still not receiving aid as all but three custodial staff were laid off, resulting in restrooms with overflowing trash cans, no paper products, as well as unclean cafeterias and dining areas.

At Southwestern Indian Polytechnic Institute, power outages went unresolved for many hours due to lack of maintenance staff, sometimes causing classes to be canceled while water from taps is brown and unsafe repairs have been postponed indefinitely due to cuts.

The Bureau of Indian Education is among the agencies named in the lawsuit. We reached out for a statement. They told us the Department of Interior reaffirms its unwavering commitment to providing BIE students with a quality and culturally appropriate education in a safe, healthy and supportive environment while prioritizing fiscal responsibility for the American people. But department policy is not to comment on litigation.

Jacqueline De Leon is one of the lead attorneys behind the lawsuit. She's a senior staff attorney at the Native American Rights Fund. Jacqueline, welcome back. And let me start here. There are, as we've reported on these cuts in many government agencies, there's the threat of funding related to DEI at schools. That's different. But you allege that the decisions about these schools specifically cannot be made unilaterally. They cannot just come from the White House. What's the case?

JACQUELINE DE LEON, SENIOR STAFF ATTORNEY, NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS FUND: That's right. The federal government has treaty and trust responsibilities to tribal nations. These are bargains that were struck long ago. And the truth is the federal government owes Native Americans education. And central to that is the Native Americans, Tribal Nations have the right to consultation prior to any staffing changes.

They have the right to determine what their priorities are, where, if there are going to be cuts, those cuts would be made. And so there's a system in place to ensure that Native Americans have a say in the education of their children. And that's why we're bringing a lawsuit on behalf of tribes and impacted students.

BLACKWELL: Can you talk to me more about the impact? And we talked about kind of the campus life element, but the educational element of the reduction of the instructors and staff there.

DE LEON: Yes, unfortunately, the cuts were just done so without really consideration of how they were going to impact the students. And so we saw instructors ripped away, we saw maintenance and crews stripped away.

And as a result, there was really just kind of chaos initially. Right. Because students that were expecting an instructor in the morning simply didn't have one. And so the school had to scramble, have deans, other teachers, try and fill in classes that they were unfamiliar with. And really, what we're hearing from the students is that they were devastated and that they are fearful for their education in the future.

This week, a federal judge ordered that thousands of the probationary employees who were fired by the Trump administration be reinstated. I talked about Coach Strom and his reinstatement. Has that impacted other employees at these schools?

DE LEON: So, as of right now, we haven't heard them being rehired, but we're hopeful that in the coming weeks they will be in compliance with that court order.

[08:50:00]

Of course, there are different legal theories that we're advancing here. And so if for whatever reason, though, that case ends up being reversed, then we would still continue on with our case. But also, you know, we know that there are further reductions in force that are being contemplated. And so we're here to make sure that those reductions in force are being done completely compliant with the law.

BLACKWELL: Yes. You've been on this show before. I've covered the challenges of Indian country since before this show debuted. I want you to fit this element into the larger context though, of the continued challenge between tribal nations and their trustee, the United States.

DE LEON: Yes. And thank you so much. You know, I think it's important for Americans to understand that the Bureau of Indian Education interior, the BIA has a long history of unfortunately not keeping the promises that Native Americans are owed.

And unfortunately, what we saw here was a continuation of that long history. We had seen a reversal in the last decade or so where the BIE and where Bureau of Indian Education had really just been dedicating themselves to increasing staff because what the sort of federal reports had said over and over again is that increased staffing is needed in order to address the many issues across these campuses. And so there had been a staffing up.

And so to see sort of this abrupt dismissal so many key personnel really runs contrary to the recommendations of the own of the agency itself and was really an abrupt shock for a lot of the students.

BLACKWELL: Jacqueline De Leon, thank you for your time and of course we will follow this case. If you take inclusion.

DE LEON: Than you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Jacqueline. If you take inclusion, if you take out diversity of the performing arts, what's left? Not a lot. According to the leaders of one theater that depends on federal funding, it is fighting back. You will hear from them next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:56:45]

BLACKWELL: So we've been committed on this show to covering how uncertainty around funding for DEI programs is impacting art. The vagueness of it all has performing arts organizations that depend on federal money asking if there's a play or a musical about a person of color or a gay person or disable or a woman is at a risk of getting cut.

Baltimore Center Stage says their strategy is just to keep on keeping on, even if that puts their federal funding at risk. For the latest edition of Art is Life, I spoke with theater's leaders about why keeping their commitment to diversity is worth it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM FRANK, MANAGING DIRECTOR, BALTIMORE CENTER STAGE: I'm Adam Frank in Baltimore, Maryland and I'm the managing director of Baltimore Center Stage.

STEVE WALKER-WEBB, ARTISTIC DIRECTOR, BALTIMORE CENTER STAGE: I'm Stevie Walker Webb. I'm the artistic director of Baltimore Center Stage.

It's always been a place that has celebrated diverse stories and celebrated uniqueness and authenticity and difference. It's always been a place that has been a forum for conversation. We had the world premiere of a play called "Mexodus" that looked at the Underground Railroad as it traveled south. The story situates around a Mexican citizen helping an enslaved black man get to freedom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Laurel, Mississippi, there lived a God fearing family named Johnson.

WALKER-WEBB: We opened up this season with a play called "Oh Happy Day" that looks at Christianity and faith through the lens of a black family, but with a queer character. At the center, we're covering a large cross section of who we are, not just as theater makers, but as humans.

FRANK: When the National Endowment for the Arts, after the inauguration, released its new guidelines, it beat. It became clear that to apply for federal funding for the arts, we would have to change who we are at a fundamental level.

WALKER-WEBB: That's not even an option. It wasn't an option for Adam. It's not an option for me. It's not an option for our board or for the patrons who support this theater.

FRANK: And so the first thought was, we can't do this. We would never do this. So the NEA grant for Baltimore Center Stage usually is in the range of about $30,000 a year, and that's not easy to replace. So since we've said publicly that we would say to federal funds, there's been a tremendous outpouring of support, both in ticket sales and in donations and in moral support.

WALKER-WEBB: We're a place that radically unites people, that radically create spaces of joy and places of dissension. Because we think it's fun, because we think it's more entertaining, homogeny is boring. And because we think that we're better together. We're better when we challenge ourselves in the ways that our programming does.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: And for more information on Baltimore Center Stage, check out centerstage.org. And if you see something or someone I should see, tell me. I'm on Instagram, TikTok, X and Bluesky. If you missed a conversation or story, check out clips on our show's website and you can listen to our show as a podcast.

Tonight, remember to tune in for an all new episode of "Have I Got News For You."

[09:00:00]

It's at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN. Thank you for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern.