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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Chilling Effect: Making Foreign Students Fearful Of Deportation; Attorneys For Student Activist Targeted By ICE Call Out Feds; Threats To Deport STudent Activist Sparks Free Speech Debate; Wisconsin Supreme Court Race A Litmus Test For Elon Musk's Political Power; Actor Explains Call To Identify As "Non-White" And Not "Black." Aired 8-9a ET

Aired March 29, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:56]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first of all, maybe making foreign fearful and wonder am I next is the point. The State Department says it has their eye on visa holders and visa applicants to see who might have said or done anything the government would interpret as supporting groups like Hamas. Now the case of Turkish student Rumeysa Ozturk this week showed us that it might not take much for the government to make that connection. You've seen the video.

She's the tough student who was arrested in broad daylight in Boston by plain-clothed agents wearing masks. She's still at a facility in Louisiana. The government claims that she supports Hamas, but as far as we know publicly, all she did was share a byline of an opinion piece in the Tufts newspaper a year ago. In it, she calls out her school for not divesting from Israel during its war in Gaza.

Her case is similar to another that we've covered, the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil. He was detained near his home, too, and he, too was sent to Louisiana at a detention facility for being involved with the protest at Columbia last spring.

Well, now the government is fighting to detain and deport Cornell University student Momodou Taal. This week, a judge denied a bid to immediately stop the government from arresting him. Taal is a PhD student in Africana studies and a citizen of the United Kingdom and the Gambia. His visa was revoked over his participation in campus demonstrations. The government alleges he was involved in, quote, disruptive protests and played a part in creating a hostile environment for Jewish students.

Eric Lee is an attorney for Momodou Taal and co-counsel is Chris Godshall-Bennett, who is also legal director at the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with me. And Eric, let me start with you and the expectation of what's next. Does your client believe that he is days away from being taken into custody?

CHRIS GODSHALL-BENNETT, ATTORNEY FOR MOMODOU TAAL: Well, it's entirely possible. And the federal courts are the branch of government that gets to decide constitutionally that must decide the legality of the actions of the executive branch. We are continuing to exercise our rights to pursue relief through the federal courts. But the real issue here is that the American people have to understand that if the government can deport Momodou Taal for attending a protest, it's going to be doing the same to you, regardless of whether you agree with Mr. Taal's speech on Palestine or not.

This is an unprecedented attack on freedom of speech. The conflation of attending a protest with terrorist activity is straight out of Pinochet's playbook, and the American people should reject it entirely.

BLACKWELL: So let's talk about the threshold here, because we heard from the Secretary of State who has the authority to revoke these visas, at least he claims it, under the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. And, Chris, this is for you. Let's play what Secretary Rubio says and then get your reaction to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: If you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student, and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States is not just because you want to write op eds, but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, creating a ruckus, we're not going to give you a visa. Every time I find one of these lunatics, I take away their visa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: What's your reaction to that? Because he didn't say anything there about support for Hamas. It's about the disruption. What's your take?

GODSHALL-BENNETT: Yes, I mean, I think it's. What he's describing is a form of collective punishment, right? I think that there's a bit of a sleight of hand where Secretary Rubio casts a rather wide net in terms of, like, who is responsible for the issues that he is concerned about. But let's take a step back, right? Like, non-citizens present in the United States have First Amendment rights. They have the right to protest, they have the right to speak out. They have the right to criticize the government or the government of the state of Israel.

[08:05:10]

So whether they're involved in a protest, there's a bunch of leaps, I think, between concerns with the disruption of a protest and holding a particular person responsible for any particular issue that they have with it, while at the same time respecting their rights to free speech. I think it's a complete pretext. And even on its face, it is, you know, utterly violative of the First Amendment. BLACKWELL: CNN spoke with your client Momodou Taal in November of

2023. This was just a few weeks into the war. This is the very beginning of the protest that we saw last into the spring and summer. Let's play some of that. Oh, we don't have that -- we don't have that clip.

All right, so let me describe what he said. He was asked about some of his rhetoric online in which he said glory to the resistance on October 7th. He'd used the phrasing from the river to the sea as well. We know that a group called Baytar (ph), it's a pro-Israel group labeled as extremist by the Anti-Defamation League, put his name on a list of deportation priorities, in part because of that rhetoric. They say they sent it to the administration and are taking credit for his now being a target of ICE.

What role do you see their focus on your client as playing into his potential deportation? Chris, same give that to you?

GODSHALL-BENNETT: Yes, I mean, I think that there has been over the last year a lot of these sort of third-party efforts to intimidate students who are speaking out against the genocide in Gaza. You know, I think Baytar is one particular example that after the inauguration really accelerated their advocacy for particular students that they identified as, you know, problematic to them to advocate for their removal. It's in the same line as the efforts to docs. And you know, last year during the protest, there were those trucks that went around with people's faces on them, calling them, you know, anti-Semitics, et cetera.

So, I'm not surprised by it. I think that I don't give them credit for it. I don't think they, you know, I think that they're involved. But at the end of the day, this effort to suppress both Momodou's and the others that are ensnared in this program of what do they call it, catch and revoke are, the responsibility is with the government and the Trump administration, regardless of what Bayt Har has advocated.

BLACKWELL: Eric, to you've spoken about the partisan overlap here and a dissatisfaction with specifically the Democratic Party's advocacy for some of these students. What are you expecting? What do you want to see that you're not seeing?

ERIC LEE, ATTORNEY FOR MOMODOU TAAL: Well, I don't expect anything from the Democratic Party. The Biden administration paved the way for the Trump administration's assault on pro-Palestinian speech. The framework of the war on terror which has developed over the last quarter century, was an entirely bipartisan, reactionary, anti- democratic project. It doesn't surprise me that the Democratic Party is totally silent when it comes to the defense of the most basic democratic rights of the entire population.

Even self-proclaimed left-wing politicians like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez haven't spoken up in defense of Mr. Taal, though he's a resident of the state that she represents in Congress. Our appeal is to the population that we will do everything that we possibly can to defend democracy in the courts. But the real defense of democracy has to come from the people, and that's the appeal that we make to you. This is not just about the speech that Mr. Taal wishes to engage in.

If the U.S. government can go around the streets of this country, pick people up, throw them into the back of vans, and drive them to detention centers thousand miles away, that's it, that's the end of democracy.

This is where the line has to be drawn. The response of the population, not the response of the political establishment, is going to depend whether we have a democracy or whether we have a dictatorship in this country.

BLACKWELL: Eric Lee, Chris Godshall-Bennett, thank you both for the conversation.

LEE: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: The President says that he wants to remove improper ideology from our nation's top historical and cultural institution. A Pulitzer Prize-winning historian of African American history is with us with a warning. Plus, Malik Yoba is here to defend his idea for fighting back against the purge of DEI, which he says is taking heat from people who misunderstood the point.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALIK YOBA, AMERICAN ACTOR: Decided there are no longer a Black man, no longer a person of color. (Inaudible) none of that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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[08:14:47]

BLACKWELL: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." That's a quote from writer George Santayana and also the title from this painting from Belgian artist Rene Magritte. That painting is currently part of the Smithsonian Museum's collection, the same Smithsonian that President Donald Trump thinks is not reminding us of the past that he would like it to.

[08:15:11]

In an executive order titled Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History, the President claims that the Smithsonian Institution has, in recent years, come under the influence of a divisive race centered ideology. Vice President J.D. Vance is now in charge of blocking federal funds for exhibits or programs that degrade shared American values, divide Americans based on race, or promote programs or ideologies inconsistent with federal law and policy. And instead, the order says that the president wants historic sites to remind Americans of our extraordinary heritage, consistent progress toward becoming a more perfect union, an unmatched record of advancing liberty, prosperity, and human flourishing.

One of the museums called out by name is the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture. The Smithsonian's current leader, Lonnie Bunch, took on the job after helping establish that museum in D.C. At the dedication ceremony in 2016, he made this point that feeling pride is not possible if we ignore the parts of our history that make us feel shame.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LONNIE BUNCH, FOUNDING DIRECTOR, NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY AND CULTURE: We remember so we can ponder the pain of slavery, segregation, and second-class citizenry. But we also find the resiliency, the faith, the hope, the joy that is so much a part of the African American community. We remember to draw sustenance, inspiration, courage from a people's commitment to help America, to challenge America to live up to its stated ideals.

We remember not out of nostalgia, but out of a country's need, especially today, for the contextualization and contemporary clarity that comes from understanding an unvarnished history. And maybe, just maybe, that understanding can help America find a bit of healing and reconciliation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: A lot of historians are worried about what this moment means. That includes David Blight. He is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and author of Frederick Douglass Profit of Freedom.

Professor, thank you for being with me. We've seen this applied as it relates to the Department of Defense and the pulling down of webpages and videos and pictures. I wonder, as you look at the Smithsonian, the museums, the zoo, what do you believe this means in this context?

DAVID W. BLIGHT, AUTHOR, "FREDERICK DOUGLASS: PROPHET OF FREEDOM: Well, good morning, Victor. This is in effect a political declaration of war by the Trump administration on the historian's profession and on the Smithsonian. I'm so glad you played that clip by Lonnie Bunch, a dear old friend of mine and essentially a heroic figure in the museum world. And I can only hope that Vice President Vance and the two other people that Trump has appointed to the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian will have to sit across a table from Lonnie and I hope he humiliates them back, because what they've done here is insulted the basic training and integrity of historians and insulted the millions of people who read history and go visit our treasured museums like the Smithsonian. This is an attempt by the executive branch of government to take over the nature and substance of the presentation of American history. It's nothing less than that.

BLACKWELL: It's interesting. I've read an interview with Secretary Bunch in the Smithsonian Magazine in which he made the case for expertise and that expertise matters and that it's a balance of expertise with historians and the application. One of the persons that the President has charged with saving the Smithsonian. quote, is Lindsey Halligan, who in her professional career is an insurance attorney.

Can you in this administration tell the fuller truth based on what you read from this executive order?

BLIGHT: Well, we have to. We can't back away from the basic training and instincts we have as historians. Most Americans can take it. Most Americans want to know a depth of American history. They want to see the conflicts. They want to see the redemptions. They're not afraid of it. Our students are not afraid of it. The millions who go to the Smithsonian museums from the U.S. and from abroad are not afraid of it.

[08:20:01]

The millions who go to the Smithsonian museums from the U.S. and from abroad are not afraid of it. But what this is an attempt now to mute us, to nullify what we do, to chill us, to make us careful and self- censoring about how we approach the past, researching it and writing it. And we cannot do that.

Now the trouble here is that historians are not a wealthy, large lobby we're up against here, a massive machine run by the Heritage Foundation, which has moved into the White House. And indeed you mentioned Hallie, I'm sorry, Lindsey Halligan, an insurance lawyer in her mid-30s with absolutely no expertise for this. But the people behind this executive order are the education policy division of the Heritage Foundation. That's why these things are being written.

And they have been working for years to thwart this multiethnic, multicultural American history that we've been writing now for, oh, three generations and more. And they now believe they have the power to stop it. If this be war over the nature and crafting and researching of American history, well, then so be it. All we can do is fight back.

BLACKWELL: I don't have a lot of time left, but I do want to get your thoughts on this criticism from the president in this order that the Smithsonian fosters, quote, this sense of shame. A lot of your work focuses on slavery and the abolitionist movement. What do you make of this framework that the study or discussion of those parts of American history should be defunded in that context of shame?

BLIGHT: Yes, we've been accused in this order, we being historians profession of writing history in the service of national shame. That's ridiculous. But it's in a long line now of essentially big lies. This is the playbook. You put an idea out there often enough, widespread enough, and pretty soon a lot of people may actually start learning it may actually start believing it.

Historians don't sit down every day to write in the service of national shame. They sit down to write in the service of the evidence they find and the narratives they can build from it. We're not about creating a story of national shame. We're about creating a story of the complexity of this amazingly pluralistic country. And it's nowhere better exhibited in the 21 museums of the Smithsonian.

BLACKWELL: David Blight, I appreciate the conversation you were the right person to have for this conversation with. Thank you so much, and enjoy the Saturday. BLIGHT: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: So there's a lot of money and a lot at stake in Wisconsin race next week that's getting national attention again. Black and Latino voters, especially will hold a lot of sway. Two organizers on opposite sides of the aisle are here to share what they're doing to get their voters to the polls.

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[08:27:56]

BLACKWELL: Wisconsin State supreme court race shattered a nationwide record, and it's not even election day yet. The election is the costliest state judicial race in history, mostly fueled by outside money. Elon Musk is traveling to Wisconsin this weekend, a stump for Republicans and promising money to anyone who signed a petition to oppose, quote, activist judges, high-profile Democratic donors have dumped millions into the race, too. And this race between Susan Crawford and Brad Schimmel is seen by many as a true test of the power since the presidential election. Whoever wins decides the balance of the court, which is staring down decisions on abortion and voting rules and congressional district boundaries. This race could give a first sign since November of whether Democrats can get a win or if the White House backing will win out.

The answer may lie really in who is voting because yet again, black and Latino voters are critical in this election. Wisconsin, key swing state, saw the biggest drop in black voter turnout in the country from 2012 to 2020. Hispanic turnout jumped 16 percent in that time, that's according to U.S. Census data. And President Trump's Republican Party is getting more and more popular among those voters.

Hilario Deleon is the chairman of the Republican Party of Milwaukee County. Angela Lang is a community organizer in Milwaukee and executive director of Black Leaders Organizing Communities. Thank you to you both.

Angela, let me start with you and give you a little more of these stats. White voter turnout, 2012 to 2020, up 2 percent. Latino voter turnout up 16 percent. Black voter turnout down 36 percent, 2012 to 2020. That's according to U.S. Census data.

How are you combating what appears to be strong disengagement from black voters?

ANGELA LANG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BLOC (BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING COMMUNITIES: Yes, thanks for having me. I think it's important to make sure that we're having a year-round focus in talking to black voters. So, at our organization, Black Leaders Organizing for Communities, we're the only organization in the state of Wisconsin with a dedicated year-round field presence in the black community. And that means we're able to have conversations on a year round basis in addition to elections.

But also kind of lean into hearing if there's any frustrations in being able to have longer discussions and also be able to plug people in locally, be able to provide context that may not be seen in some of these ads. And so for us, our bread and butter is our face to face door conversations.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Hilario should say that this is a nonpartisan race, but Democrats seem to prefer Crawford, Republican, Schimmel. And Hilario, this weekend, Democrats are making their first ad buy and they are featuring Elon Musk in seven newspaper ads across the state. He's dumped tens of millions of dollars into that race.

Most Americans have an unfavorable view of Musk, 53 percent unfavorable to 35 percent when it comes to people of color, Musk is 35 points underwater. Is he a net negative influence on this race?

HILARIO DELEON, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN PARTY OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY: In my opinion, I think that it's about the turnout game. You know, this is a numbers game. Who's going, which base is going or which group is going to get their base the most in this election. For us in Milwaukee, it's the lose by less mentality. We have our initiative called Operation Connecting Milwaukee and there's numbers of third party groups that are out knocking doors in the state of Wisconsin right now. You know, from each county to county.

I think, you know, the President and Elon Musk and others who are conservative influencers, bringing attention to this election is one of the most important things because historically we've seen that these spring elections are low turnout elections for Republicans. And the conservative lost in 2023 by 203,000 votes. I mean, so it's about getting the message out.

And Elon Musk, you know, even compared to those numbers, he has one of the largest followings on social media with X, since he owns X. And the fact that he's playing a crucial role within the administration. A lot of people are paying attention to what's going on with the administration.

So, I think it could be a net positive for rural areas that are really fired up. They're still excited. They're still hyped up from the wind from 2024. And we're seeing that turnout in these rural areas. We're outperforming our numbers that we did in 2023.

BLACKWELL: Angela, let me put that question to you Democrats investing money in highlighting and featuring Elon Musk in this judicial race in Wisconsin, how potent do you think he is for Democrats?

LANG: Yes, I mean that is something that we are hearing on doors. People are seeing the through line connection to the Trump agenda with Elon Musk trying to buy our state's highest courts. And with a lot of folks saying that's a state issue, let the states decide.

Well, what does that look like when you have a member of the Trump administration trying to buy our state's highest courts? And whether you're a Democrat or Republican, I've heard both say that it is an attack on the voting rights and the voices of Wisconsinites to have someone trying to play an influence in our elections versus the actual voters of the state being able to decide who our justice should be.

BLACKWELL: Hilario, I see you shaking your head here. Let me put this to you Wisconsinites in the president election, their most important issue was the economy. And of the about 35 percent who put that at the top of the list, nearly 8 out of 10 voted for President Trump. And we got the consumer confidence numbers just yesterday and they're at the lowest level in many years.

How much do you think these anxieties play into a judicial race? I mean, we're talking about the issues that will come before the court, but there is a malaise is the wrong word and has a political context, but there's a dissatisfaction that people have. How much do you think that plays into this race?

DELEON: I don't think that's going to play a factor in this race because people have to understand how the Supreme Court actually works. And I think it's kind of hypocritical for people on the other side to say that Elon Musk is trying to buy this election because at the end of the day, 80 something percent of the money that is coming into Susan Crawford's campaign is out of state donors. And the three biggest ones are Reid Hoffman, George Soros and the governor of Illinois.

So Wisconsinites don't want to see Wisconsin turn into Illinois. And I think at the end of the day they don't want activist justices to be on the Supreme Court.

[08:35:00]

That's one of the main reasons why Brad Schimmel got into this race and is running for to be a Justice on the Supreme Court because at the end of the day in 2023, we had a candidate that openly talked about where they were going to stand and vote on certain issues that would come before the Supreme Court. The way that the Supreme Court is supposed to work in this republic, it's supposed to be a checks and balances and ensure and interpret the law as written.

Not to put their personal feelings or anything that the Dems like big donors say what they want them to stand for, whether it's voter ID or Act 10 or many issues.

BLACKWELL: We should also talk about out of state money coming in from the Democrats. Elon Musk is literally coming to Wisconsin to hand out million dollar checks to people who have signed petitions. So we should include that element in this conversation as well. Angela Lang, Hilario Deleon thank you both.

Malik Yoba is getting a lot of attention for a post saying he's no longer calling himself a black man. The actor is here to explain the deeper message he says that a lot of people are missing. That's next.

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[08:40:51]

BLACKWELL: The purging of DEI from government and corporate America is testing their commit to diversity. Many companies and public institutions are scrapping programs and canceling events or scrubbing websites. But there are also groups finding ways to defy the trend. This week, actor and entrepreneur Malik Yoba weighed in with an idea that got a lot of attention when he shared a video that started with this statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALIK YOBA, ACTOR: I decided that I'm no longer a black man, no longer a person of color, bipoc. None of this. What I am is a non-white man. I think we should all just start calling ourselves non-white now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: The video goes on from there, but outlets have grabbed onto the headline Malik Yoba no longer identifies as black. There was actually one that just started with the word blasphemy. People have missed his real purpose for this post and Malik Yoba is with us now to explain. Malik, good morning to you.

YOBA: Good morning, brother.

BLACKWELL: There were some people who they thought you were being facetious. Some people thought it was sarcasm. Some people really took it as sincerity. What were you trying to say in that post? YOBA: I wasn't trying to. Your show's called first of All. So I'm

going to start with first of all. Thank you. First of all, I was on my way to a meeting and it was just stream of consciousness. It really wasn't that deep for me other than, you know, this thought that occurred to me the night before, like we are living in a world where in real time, you now, our history is being wiped away in front of us.

And all of the key words, black and bipoc and all those things, those are the words that we're told that are searched on using algorithms and AI to identify why Jackie Robinson's removed from the Department of Defense or Tuskegee. And so it was a call to action for diversity.

It's about all diverse people who don't identify as these labels that have been placed upon us because none of us are white or black or any of that. Right. I was raised to believe we're all human. And that's the work I've done my entire life around bringing people together of diverse backgrounds to work together, to find agency, to use their voice.

And so for me, you know, it's troubling. There's a lot of people hurting. You know, I have a lot of friends that work in the federal government, people who are contract workers, USAID, EPA, MBDA, HHS. And so, you know, it was an opportunity that I did not post on Instagram to go viral. You can't control that. But clearly it struck a chord.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it struck a chord. And what we saw from some of the comments on not just your post but other outlets that carried it, there was a degree of make them say it. Right.

YOBA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: That people attach themselves to beyond your statement about being a non-white person. Make them say it. And we featured here some of those key words.

YOBA: Yes. Call a thing a thing. You know, I mean, we live in a world where in real time, you know, it's like the Truman show or something. Right? Like don't believe with your eyes. Right. Don't believe what your eyes are telling you. And that's troubling.

Like I said, I mean, for me -- like I said, my commitment has always been to how do we bring people together. Look, I'm a black man, a man of African descent, right. Yoba means last of the slaves, a new generation. So I don't walk around even with a European name. Right.

And so my identity is my always -- this is always going to be how I identify. But beyond skin tone or someone's label, what my heart is about is how do we build people, places and things. And that's actually the slogan of Yoba Development. Right. Both my real estate development company as well as our foundation. So we're -- our commitment is builder of people, places and things. Right.

[08:45:00]

We do things. We have an activation coming up called Flip in the Hood, which you can go to our website, Yobadevelopment.com and get more information. But it's about how do we knowledge transfer so that everybody can win.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

YOBA: I've never seen the championship team. If we're the greatest country in the world, nobody should be on the bench.

BLACKWELL: You know, we had a conversation on Thursday about this and now knowing more about your childhood, your father, your family connections, the idea that you would one day grow up to be a man who says I'm no longer a black man just doesn't make sense. And a lot of people don't have that context though.

YOBA: Yes, yes. And I appreciate that. And you know, but I think people's response, right, really speaks to how they're feeling, right? How dare you? You're someone that we look to for leadership. Right? I've been in the public eye for three decades and you know, I'm here, funny enough, in Connecticut at a fan at 90s Con with the cool runnings cast, right?

And even if you think about that movie, right, were the non-white guys, right, in the Olympics trying to get a goal. And so whether it's New York on the COVID, right, I was the first Michael DeLorenzo and I the first black and Latino, like on a one hour drama in the history of television in 1994. Right. And so three years before I was born, you couldn't vote, right?

So, we were raised to leave the world better than it was when we found it. And so, there's a lot of context I shared with you how we grew up with the Shabazz family. I learned to ride a bike in Malcolm X's driveway grew up. My parents were friends.

And so there is a lot of context that people don't know because you only see the actor and you don't really pay attention to the work that I've been doing for 40 plus years. You know, we talked on the phone the other day. I visited, you know, the Montgomery, the bus station that was just up for sale, right, in Montgomery, Alabama.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

YOBA: In 1988 I went on the 25th anniversary of the Freedom Rides. I literally, with 150 young people, took buses from New York to Neshoba County, Mississippi. And I was a 20 year old wearing the SNCC (ph) uniform, wearing my white T-shirt and my overalls and my glasses, identifying with this history as a person born in 1967.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

YOBA: And so I think we all have a responsibility to democracy is a work in progress. And we're watching people be afraid, cower, get defensive and all. I'm interested in how do we come together, people of good conscience, right? Come together. Do your part to make sure that democracy works, which includes making sure that we are registered to vote, that we go out there, that we encourage the apathetic folk, the people -- BLACKWELL: Yes.

YOBA: -- that feel like they have no connection. Everything is political, even when we aren't trying to be political, including an IG post.

BLACKWELL: We're certainly going to get into some of that in our next segment, Lisa France and how people, the resistance, as it's called, is looking different this time around for some. Malik Yoba, I appreciate the conversation. You got a lot of it.

YOBA: Thank you, brother.

BLACKWELL: This week and the clarity is important.

YOBA: Hopefully this clears some things up for some folks.

BLACKWELL: All right. Thank you. All right, you've heard the question. Where them fans at? Up next, we're going line dancing with Lisa France, who has the story of how finding connection in tough times calls for a little dancing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left, right, left hand lit it up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:56]

BLACKWELL: And so here's why we're playing that song this morning. Since the election, some black people, especially who voted for Vice President Kamala Harris and were disappointed by her loss, have simply embraced the phrase, get somebody else to do it. Y'all got it.

Now, that doesn't mean that people have crawled under their covers until the midterms. They're reclaiming their time and they are using it for self-care and line dancing. Lisa France is here.

LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Yours is so much better. I know.

BLACKWELL: I've been practicing.

FRANCE: You have been practicing.

BLACKWELL: And so this embrace of self-care and get somebody else to do it. You have some -- you have a new piece out today, actually. What'd you find?

FRANCE: What I found is that protests are looking a little different. They're looking like line dancing. I kept seeing all these memes where people were saying that, you know, the world is on fire and black people are learning new line dances. And that's actually what is happening.

You know, black women, there's a viral saying out right now that black women have decided to take off their capes and turn them into blankets. Because they say for the next four years they're resting, but they're also leaning into the joy that they felt.

Joy was a big part of Vice President Kamala Harris campaign. And so they're furthering that joy by learning line dancing and leaning into community and leaning into joy because there's a lot of despair right now. People feel like, you know, things are rolling backwards.

You know, we live in a world where people are more offended by being referred to as racist than they are by actual racism. And so folks are feeling like, you know what? We need to do something to come together and find that joy, find that sense of community and to really embrace it. And so line dancing is given all that.

BLACKWELL: And so there is the historical context, too --

FRANCE: Yes.

BLACKWELL: -- of black people, especially in these moments, going to this type of self-care.

[08:55:00]

FRANCE: Absolutely. Because I talked to fabulous Dr. Nassinga Burton, who tied it into just the history of, first of all, black people, very communal, you know, African American people. We always have turned to the arts and dance as a way of just like really feeling better but also coming together as a people. And as another one of my friends said that right now, joy feels subversive.

And so anything that people feel like they can do to find joy, it feels empowering. And so I went to a class here, in Atlanta, Jasmine King toured it. It was amazing. And people said to me, you know, look, we are out here and we are taking care of ourselves now. We're not out here focusing on politics. We're not out here focusing on trying to save the Democratic Party. We're out here focusing on saving ourselves and healing. Looks like dancing right now.

BLACKWELL: And so the reason we have these fans is because there's a part of the song of "Boots on the Ground" where there's a fan pop several times.

FRANCE: Yes.

BLACKWELL: And the Tamia line dance, which I still can't get.

FRANCE: Yes, I talked to Tamia.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

FRANCE: It took her a minute. Her and Grant Hill.

BLACKWELL: Oh, so they have it now. FRANCE: Yes. I interviewed Tamia about a song of hers that's almost 20

years old, "Can't Get Enough" --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

FRANCE: -- that was turned into a line dance. And she learned about it, and she learned the dance.

BLACKWELL: Lisa France, thanks so much, and thank you for joining us. I'll see you back here next Saturday. Smerconish is up next.

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