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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Desperate Search For Thousands Missing After Devastating Flood; Family Seeks Info On American Anil Goel, Missing After Hiking; Lawsuit Challenges Mamdani's City-Run Grocery Store Plan; Trump Appeals Latest Decision Blocking Mail Voting Changes; Trump Administration Removes Painting By Famed Obama Portrait Artist. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired August 29, 2026 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:00:07]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: First of all, my thoughts are with the South Asian community as we all hope that the catastrophe in Nepal does not grow worse than it already is.

More than 600 people have been killed by this devastating flood that hit Nepal's border with China. Roughly 3,000 people are still missing on both sides of the border. That includes dozens of U.S. citizens. And last check with the State Department they know of 90 missing Americans.

Now, the rush to find the missing is already urgent. But this weekend there's also concern about a possible new flood. More rain is expected in that area and two entirely new lakes have formed in the flood zone. There have been survivors found, including Americans. But the consensus from rescue crews and leaders there is that time is running out to find more.

One of the missing Americans is Anil Goel from Virginia. Anil planned a multiday trip to hike Mount Kailash near the Nepal border with China. His family says he's an avid hiker. He was with a tour group. But his family says they have not heard from him since the day before the disaster.

Anurag Goel is here with me now. Thank you for being with me. I can't imagine what it's been like these last couple of days. Talk to me about how it's been day to day waiting for information, trying to get information about your father in that hiking group.

ANURAG GOEL, AFTHER ANIL DURAG MISSING IN NEPAL WITH TOUR GROUP: Hi, Good morning, Victor. Thank you for the opportunity to share my perspective on what my family is experiencing along with other American families.

Yes, each day has been very difficult. There's been a large lag in communication between what's happening in the region, specifically near the Gyirong Crossing area between Tibet and Nepal where my father and his group was. And, you know, that area also appears to be the area that got hit the hardest.

So it's been really challenging just dealing with the uncertainty and dealing with lack of communication and the sheer vastness of the disaster.

BLACKWELL: You have the benefit of some time stamps videos he posted. Border crossing. So where was he last in comparison to when that disaster happened on the 26th?

GOEL: Yes, he was along with the rest of his group. They were known to last be at the Nepal side of the Nepal and Tibet border. That's called Gyirong Crossing. And that was they were last known to have received their departure stamp on their passports around 8:35 a.m. to depart Nepal entered Tibet.

And there were also some messages through WhatsApp exchanged around that time. So that was roughly 45 minutes before the flooding took place in that area.

BLACKWELL: Are you just waiting for a call or is there anything that you're able to do proactively? Are there resources? Are there offices that you can call in Nepal?

GOEL: We're trying our best to communicate with anyone and everyone to understand how -- one understand the scope of the rescue and recovery effort at the Gyirong Crossing. Again, that was the area that got hit the hardest, from my understanding. So we've been working closely with any institutions or any agencies that are in that area, the Nepal police, the Chinese police, the Chinese military, Nepal military, just indirectly trying to understand the scope of the rescue effort.

And then also we're trying to -- what's been really helpful is communicating with other families that are also impacted, that are missing loved ones in the region and understanding what these other families are doing. Resources they're utilizing to just have more real time communication with activities in the space, specifically as people are being rescued, recovered, helping identify those people.

I understand in the last day alone maybe there were several hundred people recovered, but it's impossible to know how we can go about identifying people that are being recovered, rescued from that region. That's been a real challenge.

[08:05:06]

BLACKWELL: Anurag, when you saw the video of the water and the mud and the rock rushing in, take me to that moment. What did you think? What did you feel?

GOEL: I just -- it was hard to watch. I mean that video was just represents so much sheer destruction. And yes, that video just kind of really visualizes the sheer magnitude of how powerful this disaster was and really puts things in perspective. And having watched that video and then understanding, kind of piecing together the timeline of where many -- where my father, many other Americans have been had been and at what time it kind of just, you know, it was really difficult to watch.

BLACKWELL: Your father maintains a YouTube page where he posts --

GOEL: Right.

BLACKWELL: -- video and he posted a video the day before the flood. Now, I was going to play it, but I don't -- I don't know if that's something that you're watching right now. Are you watching the YouTube videos? Do they bring you comfort? Do they bring you anxiety.

GOEL: Sometimes. Yes. It reminds me of how happy he is, why he does what he does and it's a great way to remain hopeful in the fact that he is still out there and, you know, he was out there in the first place because of how much joy it brings him. And it reminds me of also just to share amount of beauty in that region.

So I do try to, you know, look at those videos and get more perspective on why it's such a beloved area for many.

BLACKWELL: And are you confident that your father's coming home?

GOEL: That's all I can be is to remain confident and work with anyone and everyone, especially other families involved. Encourage you to reach out to me through socials. We can work together and bring our loved ones back. Understand there's many other Americans missing family members.

So yes, I remain very hopeful and confident and will continue my best along with, you know, the other families involved.

BLACKWELL: Anurag Goel, thank you so much for spending some time sharing your story and of course we hope that you and your family have some good news very soon.

Now for more information about how you can help Nepal flood victims, go to CNN.com/impact. You can also text flood to 707070.

Coming up, if you know New York, you know bodegas, those small businesses, the livelihood for many minority communities in the city. Well, some owners of those stores are now suing the city over a Mamdani plan that they say could put them out of business. We'll speak to one store owner next.

Plus, listen to this. A candidate in Texas says he's no longer running as a Republican, but rather as a write in candidate after he was asked by a party official about training his dog to bite Muslims.

The local chair of the GOP is not denying the question was asked. In fact, he's calling out the candidate for making it public. We'll break that down, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:13:23]

BLACKWELL: So think of the symbols of New York City life. A few icons come to mind. You got the Statue of Liberty, your yellow taxis. You know those blue and white coffee cups. And there's also the humble corner bodega. Grab yourself a bacon, egg and cheese. A few groceries. Pet the cat on your way out.

Bodegas in small grocery stores have been part of the fabric of the city's boroughs for decades and an economic lifeline for immigrant entrepreneurs. But a new program has some store owners worried about their future. Mayor Zohran Mamdani's key focus since getting into office has been affordability and one plan to help cut costs build five government owned grocery stores, one for each borough. Here's the mayor explaining how this would work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK CITY: Today, I am proud to announce a collection of essential staples that will be predictably 30 percent cheaper at all 5 of our city run grocery stores. This core set of goods will include all fresh produce, meat and seafood, along with 20 other essential items like cheese, milk, and bread. Here's how it will work.

Once a month, our five-city run grocery stores will set prices for this core set of goods at 30 percent below typical retail prices. No exceptions, no gimmicks. The savings will last for the entire month.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: While a lot of New Yorkers support the plan, some owners of other small stores do not. A nonprofit representing them sued the mayor and the city this week. They argue they cannot afford to match those discounts and that city officials chose those sites arbitrarily without studying neighborhood needs.

[08:15:05]

But the mayor says other similar markets have been successful without affecting neighboring businesses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAMDANI: We're also talking about delivering five-city run grocery stores in a city of eight and a half million people that has more than a thousand grocery stores. And we've seen, in fact with Essex Street Market in Manhattan as well as Moore Street Market in Brooklyn, a model where the city has subsidized groceries and it has not had a negative effect on bodegas around them or on grocery stores around them. And I'm confident both in the legality of this, that it will stand up in court and in the importance of delivering it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining me now is Carlos Collado. He owns supermarkets in the Bronx and Manhattan. He's also the VP of the city's bodega and small business group. Carlos, good morning to you. Thanks for being with me. So you heard the mayor there. He says it's five stores. The market is

broad enough to accommodate to endure these five stores, just a couple dozen discounted items. You say what to them?

CARLOS COLLADO, OWNS SUPERMARKETS IN BRONX AND MANHATTAN: First of all, good morning. But that sounds to us like us just assaults to injury, right, insult to injury that they're weaponizing our tax dollars to compete against us.

BLACKWELL: All right, looks like we're having an audio issue there with Carlos.

COLLADO: Government monitor pricing, the constitutionality of the government competing with private enterprise, the fact that they haven't done a formal study of or analysis of any type, they just decide, pick a load location arbitrarily and without realizing how many stores there are a block away.

And I can tell you I've already walked these locations and in every direction you go a block away there's a supermarket and a half a block there's a bodega and another block there's another one. And what's going to happen to all of the employees of those locations as well?

There's no way that with a deep pocket like the taxpayer's pocket. Right. And we shouldn't be the only ones concerned. The taxpayers should be extremely concerned about this situation because this is going to become a money pit in perpetuality.

BLACKWELL: Carlos, I just want to check audio. Can you still hear me?

COLLADO: I can hear you.

BLACKWELL: OK, good. We had a little issue there with the audio and your shot. So there were two lawsuits filed. One I described already. There's one that claims that this is discrimination. Two causes of action. Both claim a violation of civil rights of members of a protected class. Let me read from the lawsuit.

Plaintiffs have been denied equal protection where the plaintiffs, small, immigrant and minority owned grocery stores are unable to discount products and are being duly denied equal protection of the subsidized municipal grocery stores. You with me? Can you hear me, Carlos?

COLLADO: I can hear you. Yes.

BLACKWELL: OK. All right, so explain more because this claims that this is a discrimination of members of a protected class. What's the intersection, even if it's not intended, of the impact of race in this?

COLLADO: Right. Well, the argument is that the majority of these small businesses, the majority of the owners, especially in the confines of where they wish to build these stores, are minority owned businesses. We have the Hispanics, the Arabs, the Asians, you know, minority owned businesses. And that it's going to disproportionately hurt this group. Why are they not opening these locations in the popularized political sound bite of food deserts? Why don't they go there into a true food desert?

BLACKWELL: When the mayor says that they won't sell hot food, they won't sell alcohol, they won't sell lottery tickets, so it won't compete with bodegas and small stores on that, does that give you or the members of your group any comfort?

COLLADO: Oh, please. They've given us that song and dance and some of the other organizations of which I'm a member, we have met with them and we have explained to them that this shows how naive and how little they know about our business. Lotto, you don't make anything, literally. Cigarettes, most of us don't even sell them because of such a hassle with the permitting and the inspectors.

Beers is the only thing we sell. And if they knew how to run, if they knew anything about this business, that is not a profit sector. In fact, that's one of the lowest. So it clearly shows their lack of knowledge for this business.

[08:20:05]

BLACKWELL: All right, Carlos Collado, a local store owner there supporting this lawsuit against Mayor Mamdani and this new effort to open five government owned grocery stores. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation this morning.

Question here is President Trump using the postal service to restrict voting by mail? We'll discuss the voting rights fight over the new rules which keep getting paused and then unpaused by the courts.

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[08:25:00]

BLACKWELL: We're coming up on two months now until the midterm election and a legal fight impacting one way a lot of Americans vote is still unresolved. The White House says they will appeal a federal judge's ruling that pauses new U.S. Postal Service rules that could limit mail-in voting.

Now states would have to submit lists of people who vote by mail to the Postal Service, and USPS would only carry ballots that are in envelopes that have specific barcodes unique to each voter to facilitate automated tracking. The state officials say that they would not be able to get that done in time for November.

But the larger push to preserve voting rights was a focus of Friday's March on Washington, which also marched the marked the 63rd anniversary of Dr. King's speech there at the March on Washington. Here for the conversation, Janelle King, conservative commentator and Republican member of Georgia's election board, senior editor at BOSSIP, Jason "Jah" Lee and Edward Ahmed Mitchell, a civil rights attorney, former journalist and deputy director of the Council on American Islamic Relations. Welcome to you all. I said former journalist, but I think once you're a journalist, you're

always a journalist.

EDWARD AHMED MITCHELL, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: I like to think so.

BLACKWELL: I'm going to give you that still. All right, so let's start here, Janelle, as an election official here in the state of Georgia, there are state officials who said that to fulfill this mandate, they would have to reprint millions of ballots. Could Georgia have gotten it done in time?

JANELLE KING, CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I do think that the conversation around timing is one thing and then the conversation around need is another thing, and we have to weigh it. What's most important? Do we need this or do we have to be concerned about the timing of it?

And I will say that overall, and I kind of like to kind of calibrate where I am, I believe that we all agree that noncitizens should not be voting in our elections, correct? I think we're all on the same page.

BLACKWELL: I don't know you're getting any disagreement here.

KING: OK. OK. Right. So if we're all on the same page, then we have to look at the need of this. The fact of the matter is, particularly in Georgia, we have found about 3,000 noncitizens on our election or our voter rolls. And then we also have counties that are over 100 percent register on the voter rolls, which means there's more people registered than actually live in the county.

So we have to ask ourselves, how are we going to fix this and when are we going to fix it? Because as elections continue to happen, we are having local elections that are being determined by a handful of people. And if we don't know who those handful of people are, they then we are in a situation where we have to make some drastic decisions.

BLACKWELL: Edward, let me come to you. Black Voters Matter is one of the plaintiffs in this suit that led to the judge issuing this two- week pause. The founders said that this is voter suppression repackaged as voter protection. This is not about making democracy more secure. It's about reshaping who can fully participate in it.

What do you think about this move by the administration as it relates to mail in voting?

MITCHELL: Look, the president's order is a bad solution to a problem that does not exist. Mail-in voting is safe. The president uses mail- in voting to cast his ballots in Florida. It has been used for years without any significant problems. This is about trying to suppress the vote to make it harder for people to vote by mail. It's wrong. It's unconstitutional. And that is why this judge has blocked the order.

Now, I think it's important to note that the Supreme Court's decision was a procedural one. It is quite possible they will not allow this to go forward. And that is my hope. Because at the end of the day, the goal of the President, I believe, is to make it harder for people, in particular minority voters, to cast their votes by mail. They should be able to do so without any interference from the federal government.

BLACKWELL: Jah.

JASON "JAH" LEE, SENIOR EDITOR, BOSSIP: I mean, this is a -- the states control the elections. That is the law. And I don't see any to your point about a solution that's looking for a problem. I'm almost surprised that this problem isn't like on milk cartons or we haven't gotten Amber alerts about this issue that doesn't seem to be a thing.

There's been so many studies done on this. Even before Trump got into office in 2014, there was a Washington Post study done on this and there's very little voter fraud that has ever been found. So I guess my question is, is this a thing that we're just using to kind of gin people up to speak to Republicans and conservative people that want to harp on this issue?

Because in 2016 when Trump was running, I didn't hear much of this about this issue when he won. And to your point, he used mail-in ballot as well. So.

KING: I have to jump in because I mean, my number one question is always who's -- how are we oppressing? Are we oppressing people who are shouldn't be voting? I mean, this is not about slowing down or interfering in the process of those who are legal and legally can vote. And then on the other hand, this was a pressing issue. We just didn't know about it. We found out about it after several elections, and now that we know about it, we have to address it.

BLACKWELL: Well, let me say this. The Bipartisan Policy Center analyzed data from MIT's Data and Science Lab found that as it relates to the need for proof of citizenship to vote, about 12 percent of registered voters do not have ready access to the types of documentation most likely to satisfy the Save American Act.

[08:30:10]

I listened to the Janelle King Show and you talked about some of those documents necessary, such as passport or birth certificate paired with a photo ID. That's 28.4 million people in this country who are voting age who don't have those documents. So that is a barrier for them, is it not?

KING: Well, I think that it's a barrier for the country. If we have individuals that can't obtain legal documents that solidifies their citizenship then we need to look at some of these agencies and look at some of these policies around how you can obtain these documents. So I think that's a whole other conversation.

But your ability to obtain them and then your need to have them in order to vote are two separate conversations. So I believe that we need to look at the agencies, make it easier for people to obtain these documents if there are hindrances there. But we have to have them. BLACKWELL: Edward, let me come to you on this story from our CNN affiliate KAUZ in Young County, Texas. A candidate for Justice of the Peace, Joshua Gallardo, met with local Republican Party committee members there as he was looking for a nomination for Justice of the Peace there through the party. He has experience as a K9 handler with the county sheriff's office. Here's what the party chairman you're going to hear from Lane Burgess here says came up in that meeting with the Republican Party in Young County.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LANE BURGESS, CHAIRMAN, YOUNG COUNTY, TEXAS GOP: One of my precinct chairs made the comment, well, do you think that dog could be trained on some of these Muslims and bite them? Or at that time of that meeting, he definitely was not offended. And if the man had any character and was concerned about that comment, that Mr. Gallardo should have made a comment during that interview.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: So he also is not disclosing which member of the committee said that because he said, oh, it was a mistake and is calling out the candidate for now making it public. What's your reaction to what you're hearing there?

MITCHELL: None of this is surprising. Anti-Muslim hate is out of control in our country. In particular in Texas, the governor there is an anti-Muslim extremist. He has tried to block funding to Muslim private schools, tried to shut down mosques, tried to shut down my civil rights organization, Texas.

And that sort of hate filters down and it's going across the country. Earlier this summer, two white supremacists walked into a mosque in San Diego and killed three members of the American Muslim community. And when you look at their manifesto, very similar rhetoric to what you hear from politicians. Muslims are taking over. Muslims are a threat. Sharia law, this and that. This is all nonsense.

And it's being fueled by bigots in power who want to use Muslims as a political football to win elections or scare voters away from Muslim candidates. And it has real life consequences. So I'm not surprised at all by what we just heard about biting Muslims. It is par for the course. We get members of Congress who are calling for banning Muslims, destroying Muslims. And that's being tolerated in our public discourse.

BLACKWELL: And there has been an increase that's reported by the Washington Post, at least on social media since Abdul El-Sayed won the Democratic nomination in Michigan for Senate. We've got more to talk about on this topic and others. So everybody stay with me. Janelle, Jah, Edward, more to come.

Coming up, a Native American tribe is in a standoff with the federal government in Arizona. They say armed agents entered their sovereign land along with contractors to build a border wall that the tribe does not want. The leader of that tribe joins us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:12]

BLACKWELL: A Native American tribe is standing up to a new push by the Trump administration to build a wall at the border with Mexico. The Tohono O'odham Nation says this week contractors working on the wall were spotted on their land with masked, armed federal agents. The tribe has said the wall and immigration agents are not welcome on their land in Arizona.

The Tohono O'odham Nation has also sued over construction. Now, earlier this month, a judge ruled against them, saying that the work would take place on federal land, something the tribe disputes.

For more, let's bring in now the chairman of the Tohono O'odham Nation, Verlon Jose. Mr. Chairman, thank you for being with me. So first, let's just set the stakes here of what you believe is in jeopardy for the Tohono O'odham Nation.

What's the irreparable harm that you claim that this wall will do?

VERLON JOSE, CHAIRMAN, TOHONO O'ODHAM NATION: The irreparable harm that will be caused to the Tohono O'odham Nation is the complete destruction of archaeological sacred sites, holy sites, places of worship, places where people pray before the border, where these places were already there.

And so the irreparable harm that will be done which is being caused right now is just a total devastation on our people. And the devastation that some people don't see right now that's hard to measure, is the mental, emotional, and just psychological effects that it has on our people.

BLACKWELL: So, as I said, you sued to try to stop this. This month, the federal judge denied the tribe's attempt to block the building of the wall. Judge Leon wrote, the government's interest in securing the border, enforcing immigration laws, and ensuring public safety outweigh any surviving irreparable harm.

[08:40:09]

So what do you say that to that assertion that national security and safety are paramount?

JOSE: National security has always been at the forefront, even before the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. The Tohono O'odham are homeland security. We've been homeland security to protect. One of our basic directions is to protect the land and protect the people.

And we've been doing that. We've been working with Homeland Security since they were even before Department of Homeland Security was formed. And security working together has indicated by their own numbers that apprehensions of immigrants and drugs is down by 95 percent. And if you even look to their websites, it talks about that. BLACKWELL: And so now you have these armed masked agents protecting contractors on your sovereign land. I read a letter from the leadership there in the nation saying that people should use their First Amendment rights, stay vigilant. What you expect will happen next? What's your next move?

JOSE: So in the letter we, because we do have many grassroots people, tribal members and others who would like to, and they don't say protest, but like to offer prayer. And we're telling them you have the right to exercise your First Amendment, but be vigilant, be careful and so forth.

And so we are exercising all our options available to the nation and also have the responsibility to ensure the safety and the well-being of all. And even that does include the contractors.

And so while they are violating -- while they are violating, not only tribal law, federal law, because they have no authority to diminish the nation, we still have a responsibility to protect them, protect the people. And they're not following tribal policy, tribal law and federal law.

BLACKWELL: Chairman Verlon Jose of the Tohono O'odham Nation. Thank you so much for being with me.

OK, look up at the screen. A Trump administration official describes this painting that's been hanging in a U.S. embassy as very woke and aesthetically terrifying. And now they're taking action against it.

Plus, activists say Target's apology for that minstrel like Halloween costume is not the end of the story. What they want from the company and is there a connection between the store's decision to ditch DEI and something like that being published? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:47:36]

BLACKWELL: So check out this painting. How do you feel looking at this? Do you feel at the very least just you see four young Dominican people against a colorful background, or do you see what this official in the Trump administration sees?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN SCAVINO, DIRECTOR OF ART IN EMBASSIES, STATE DEPARTMENT: Leah Campos, who's one of our great ambassadors, she had a piece of art in her embassy that we worked very hard to get taken down. It was very woke. It was by the gentleman who did Obama's portrait. And it was aesthetically terrifying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Aesthetically terrifying. Very woke. The Description comes from Erin Scavino. She runs the State Department's program that oversees the art placed in embassies around the world. The gentleman she was talking about is the renowned artist Kehinde Wiley. He's best known for his portrait of the former President Barack Obama, which is at the National Portrait Gallery.

His piece, young artist after CMSIS 1960, has been on display at the U.S. embassy in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Now, the ambassador there, Leah Campos, posted this video to social media. It shows the painting at one point covered by an American flag tarp and then taken down altogether. The time lapse is set to the song "We're Not Going to Take It."

Well, this week, CNN confirmed a New York Times report that the State Department is now looking to sell the painting. Janelle, Jah, and Edward are back.

Jah, let me start with you on this. There is this question of what is woke?

LEE: Well, I'm glad you brought that up first, because my first problem is that the bastardization of this word. I'm surprised I have any teeth left, because every time I hear conservatives say this word, I just cringe to the point of having no molars. What is woke about this? It's very telling that she calls it aesthetically terrifying.

What is terrifying about it? Brown people standing and sitting. The colors. Is that what's supposed to be aggressive? What does woke mean in this situation?

A lot of times it's just an avatar for black LGBTQ, some minority group that wants to have equal rights or equality.

BLACKWELL: Janelle, is this defensible here, that painting is just so woke and aesthetically terrifying that it had to come down?

KING: Well, I mean, I equate it to the same as when you have people that want to take down statues because they said it makes them feel inferior, it makes them feel offensive, offended.

BLACKWELL: OK.

KING: So it's all about feelings. Right.

BLACKWELL: But let's -- when you say statues, are you saying that painting is equivalent to a Confederate statue?

[08:50:05]

KING: No, no. I'm talking about the emotion behind it. Like, we can't tell people how to feel. Right. So some people may feel like this is terrifying or whatnot. When I saw the picture, I think it's a horrible picture. I'm going to tell you why my issue is because I think we're going through a -- particularly with black and brown people, I think we're going through a weird phase where there's an emasculation of men.

And so when I look at that picture and I see men sitting on the ground in almost in like a mermaid seated position, like a female position, and then women standing up with the fist, like, we're strong. To me, for me, when I look at it, it's sending a message that men should be sitting and women should be standing.

And for me, I believe, and I have a very traditional perspective of this, I believe that men are who lead your home. I believe that men are the ones who kind of set the foundation for the home. And particularly our black men are absent in the home. So we need to bring them back, and it needs to come with producing more confidence.

That picture, to me, does not show any type of confidence that we have in our black men. It looks like you need to be sitting on the ground bowing down to us, and women need to be standing strong, and we're the ones that's leading everything and leading our home.

LEE: You got all of that out of this?

KING: 100 percent. That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw.

BLACKWELL: But let me also say that as a painting that hangs in an embassy in Dominican Republic, those are actual Dominicans, live people who sat for that painting. So when you go into a country, America, and say that this is aesthetically terrifying, you are talking about people who are actually living in the country that you have a relationship with.

So you see emasculating of black and brown men. Art is about interpretation. And so that is yours.

LEE: Well, you know who else sat down? The college kids that did sit- ins. That sat down. Rosa Parks also sat down. Like, there are a lot of people who sit down who aren't weak or feeble or emasculated.

KING: It's not about sitting down. It's about the image. It was the totality of the image. It wasn't just about sitting down. I mean, there were several women before Rosa Parks who sat down, too. There's a lot of people who sit down. It's not that.

BLACKWELL: Can we talk about another image. And this image from Target of this Halloween costume that's supposed to be a clown, that the image a lot of people saw was reminiscent of 19th century minstrelsy. This kid's clown costume where you put both of them up. It's hard to deny the comparisons.

Well, Target apologized and now one of the founders of the Target boycott says that is not enough. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEKIMA LEVY ARMSTRONG, CO-FOUNDER, NATIONAL TARGET BOYCOTT: This wasn't one person's mistake. A product had to move through a corporate process before it reached Target's website. And guess what? Nobody stopped it.

Black people had to stop it from the outside, by raising awareness on social media and posting the imagery of the costume and showing how appalled our community has been that once again, we are being slapped in the face by a company that many of us once loved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Edward, weigh in here.

MITCHELL: Look, Target earlier this year, you know, decided in all of their diversity programs under pressure from the administration. And I think this is the result of that. The fact that no one in Target saw that image and said this is a bad idea, that it got all the way to being sold, indicates a failure within Target.

And that's why there is value in having diversity in corporations. There's value in having these programs to make sure you're understanding the sensitivities, because that unacceptable. When I read the headline, I thought, it's not going to be that bad. That was really bad. I mean, compared to the painting the administration so upset about nothing at all.

And so this is why there is value in having diverse employees, diverse programs in corporations, because they can catch offensive things like this in advance.

LEE: While I totally agree with everything you're saying, I'll also add that it's unfortunate that we even need diversity to catch this. White people have been taught and we've had a discourse about what's racist and what's inappropriate for a long, long, long time. They should know that this is inappropriate. It shouldn't even take someone brown or someone black or someone melanated to point out how racist and inappropriate this is. And they went through with it anyway.

And so it just begs the question, are you even trying? Are you even trying to understand the things that people point out that they say are offensive and racist? I know that they don't like the idea that anything can be racist. Nothing is racist nowadays. But it just begs the question, are you even trying to understand or are you just trying to stand in whatever principle you think is important?

BLACKWELL: Janelle, you think there's any correlation between devaluing inclusion, including different voices and life experiences in the rooms, in the editing, in the digital team that posted that and that getting to the consumer.

[08:55:00]

KING: Yes, I personally thought that was rage bait because I thought it was pretty obvious that was racist. And here's the thing. The part about it wasn't just the costume. It was the position that they had the boy in.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Yes.

KING: Right. So it tells me that you did do some research. You knew what you were doing. So I don't think there has to be black people in the room to know that this is wrong. But I do think there needs to be a conversation around are we trying to issue rage bait? Are we trying to get people inside it so that they can see it and we can create problem here? Or are we actually, you know, pretending like this is something that was possibly good?

BLACKWELL: And I saw that costume and I did not see clown. I have never seen a clown with that face.

MITCHELL: And that was aesthetically horrifying.

LEE: Yes, that's -- that is aesthetically horrifying.

BLACKWELL: All right.

KING: Using the darker kid.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

KING: I mean, there was things about that I felt was pretty obvious.

BLACKWELL: Janelle, Jah, Edward. Thank you all for being with me this morning. Thank you for joining me today. Smerconish is starting to after the break.

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