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Fareed Zakaria GPS

Interview With Saudi Foreign Minister Faisal Bin Farhan Al- Saud; Interview With Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian; Interview With Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba; Ukrainian Soldiers On Why They Keep Fighting; Interview With Primatologist And Conservationist Jane Goodall. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired January 21, 2024 - 10:00   ET



FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: This is GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria coming to you from Davos, Switzerland.


ZAKARIA: As world leaders and titans of industry gather here for the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum, today on the program, my talk with the foreign ministers of two of the most powerful nations in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

We'll discuss the war in Gaza, the threat of a broader war, and the prospects for peace.

Then on to the other major war in Ukraine. This one has been disrupting the region and the world for almost two years now. I'll talk to two of Ukraine's brave soldiers about what it's like to be on the frontlines pushing back against Putin's invaders.

I also had the great pleasure of sitting down with that gift of humanity and animals, Jane Goodall. She's still going strong at almost 90 and you won't want to miss my conversation with her.


ZAKARIA: But first, here's "My Take."

The conversations swirling around the chilly mountain air of Davos this week keep returning to one issue. Carl Bildt, former prime minister of Sweden, said to me, 2024 is the year of 50 or so elections around the world but there is only one election we're all talking about. The one in America.

When abroad, Americans can often be parochially attentive to their own politics, boring their foreign counterparts with long discussions of party politics in the Senate or the prospects of a new governor. But this time, I find it's the Americans who are weary of their country's political drama while foreigners are panicking about what might happen in November. The American election is taking place at a crucial moment. Around the

world, we're seeing several challenges to the rules-based international order that has served humanity well for decades.

In Europe, the bloodiest war the continent has seen since World War II threatens to upend its security system. In the Middle East, Iran and its allies, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and others, are testing their ability to disrupt the balance of power in the region. And in Asia, the rise of China remains the large long-term disruption, to which one must add, North Korea's accelerating arms buildup and increasingly belligerent rhetoric.

All of these have become test of wills for the U.S. which is scrambling to mobilize its allies in Europe, Asia and the Middle East, to help deter these threats and resolve crises. But many allies worry that in November, America could decide it has had enough, that these many problems perhaps do not centrally threaten American security and are therefore not worth confronting.

Much of the rhetoric of Donald Trump and some of his closest ideological soul mates, from Tucker Carlson to Vivek Ramaswamy, feeds into this fear. So if Trump were to win the election and practice what he preaches, what happens to American allies that have stuck their necks out to partner with Washington?

Sweden's Bildt told me, consider my country and Finland. We have taken a huge step in joining NATO. One that puts us in a confrontational pose against Russia. We did this under the assumption that we had the backing of the armed forces of the United States. What happens if Trump wins and decides to pull out of NATO? We would be left exposed and have to think long and hard about our options.

Finland, for its part, abandoned the policy of neutrality that had served it well for more than 70 years, and it could find itself deeply vulnerable to Russian attacks along its 830-mile border with that country. Its capital Helsinki is less than 200 miles from St. Petersburg.

I detected similar concerns while I was in Australia a few weeks ago. On the surface, Australian officials and analysts were bullish about their newly strengthened alliance with America, and proud that they would now be trusted by Washington with nuclear submarines, a technology that so far the U.S. has shared only with Britain.


But underneath the bravado, there is an unease. In recent years, Australia has moved decisively to ally itself with Washington and in the process enraged China, its largest economic partner. This is a balancing act that makes some strategist nervous.

Sam Roggeveen is a scholar at the Lowy Institute, Australia's leading think tank on international affairs. He has written a book, "The Echidna Strategy," that best articulates this nervousness. That Australia is making a major mistake by relying on the U.S. to be there for it over the next few decades. He believes that the Americans will over time conclude it's just not worth the enormous and sustained cost to confront China and Asia, that its security does not require it and it will scale back its foreign commitments.

That would leave Australia in a terrible place. Having angered and alienated the Chinese but without America's security umbrella to show for it. He advocates turning Australia into an echidna, an Australian version of a porcupine, hard to attack, even harder to digest.

Ever since World War II Washington on a bipartisan basis has adopted an expansive vision of its own security, one that recognized it alone could help undergird stability in the key regions of the world. That global role has helped create what historians called the long peace and the open global economy.

If Trump wins in November and rejects that broader view of America in the world, a retreat could create power vacuums, leave allies exposed, and tempt adversaries to accelerate their attacks and heighten their ambitions, and that is why this time around, it is foreigners nervously watching and obsessing about the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary.

Go to for a link to my "Washington Post" column this week.

After the break, a rare interview with one of the most important players in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia's foreign minister. Is the region spiraling out of control? What will it take for the kingdom to establish relations with Israel?



ZAKARIA: In the midst of the Gaza war these days, Saudi Arabia, the leading Arab state, finds itself in a quandary. On the one hand it is of course naturally suspicious of its rival Iran. On the other hand it supports the Palestinian cause and it does not yet have relations with Israel.

I spoke with Saudi Arabia's foreign minister, Faisal bin Farhan Al- Saud, on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum's annual meeting in Davos.


ZAKARIA: Foreign Minister, pleasure to have you on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be here.

ZAKARIA: Let me begin with the crisis at hand, which is these Houthi attacks on ships, the American retaliation. How worried are you that this could spiral out of control?

FAISAL BIN FARHAN AL-SAUD, SAUDI FOREIGN MINISTER: I mean, of course we are very worried. We are in a very difficult and dangerous time in the region. That's why we are calling for de-escalation. You know, we of course believe very much in the freedom of navigation and that's something that needs to be protected, but we also need to protect the security and the stability of the region so we are very focused on de- escalating the situation as much as possible.

ZAKARIA: And let me ask you about the other area where people are worried, Lebanon and Hezbollah. What are you seeing and what would be the key to de-escalation there?

AL-SAUD: I mean, the key to de-escalation in general right now, I think, is ending the conflict in Gaza because that's feeding all of this instability in the region. You know, we were already at the very unstable region unfortunately before but this continuing conflict and the continuing carnage that we're seeing, we're now at 30,000 civilian dead in Gaza, we have to find a way to stop this crisis. We have to stop the killing in Gaza and that will lay the ground I believe stabilizing other situations in the neighborhood.

ZAKARIA: Now there are people who think that the Saudi Arabian government has no love for Hamas. You have always regarded it as part of the Muslim Brotherhood kind of organization that is, you know, a kind of an opponent to regimes like Saudi Arabia. So you're not too unhappy that the Israelis are crushing Hamas. You just wish they'd do it a little bit quicker and faster and not have so many collateral casualty.

AL-SAUD: Fareed, unfortunately to what we're seeing is the Israelis are crushing Gaza. They are crushing the civilian population of Gaza. This is completely unnecessary. It's completely unacceptable and has to stop. We have to find a way to stop the killing of civilians, we have to find a way to allow for humanitarian access.

ZAKARIA: Do you have -- you have had indirect contacts with Israel over the years. I'm wondering when you put this message out, which you have been putting out very consistently, are you getting any signs from the Israelis that things are going to change soon?

AL-SAUD: I mean, what we see certainly in the media, what we see on the ground, unfortunately, is not indicative of a change. You know, what's most disturbing is I don't see any real strategic direction, any real clear strategy. And this is very, very dangerous. The innocent civilians of Gaza are paying the price. But it's not just the civilians of Gaza, it is the stability of the region.


We are seeing extraordinary levels of anger and upset because of the images of these civilians being killed. And so we need to find a way to stop the fighting. We need to find a way to address these issues through dialogue, through a political process. That's the priority.

ZAKARIA: What do you think is the most plausible next step? Would Saudi Arabia be willing to be part of an Arab force that goes into to replace the Israelis and stabilize Gaza?

AL-SAUD: I think what we need to focus on is solution for the Palestinian issue. Not just for Gaza. I think all of the Arab states have indicated that they are willing to talk about a resolution or a solution that includes how we manage the situation in Gaza as long as it's part of a bigger picture, and what we feel is necessary is some form of credible, irreversible path to Palestinian state. That will give legitimacy to any Arab country and, you know, us as a collective group addressing the issue holistically including of course Gaza and the government of Gaza.

ZAKARIA: So you're not ruling out the possibility of Saudi troops going in?

AL-SAUD: Saudi troops, I think that's something, you know, hypothetical it's hard to address and Arab troops even I don't think what type of force on the ground is the issue. It's because if we offer real hope to the Palestinians, I think it will be very much within the capacity of the Palestinian people, the Palestinian Authority, to take that responsibility.

ZAKARIA: Same question with reconstruction. You know that, you know, that is one of the areas people are hoping that Saudi Arabia will play a large role because of your immense wealth. Is Saudi Arabia willing to finance the reconstruction of Gaza?

AL-SAUD: There is no point in talking about the reconstruction of Gaza if we're not going to talk about first ending the killing. Again, as long as we're able to find a pathway towards a solution, a resolution, a pathway that means that we're not going to be here again in a year or two, then we can talk about anything. But if we're just re-setting to the status quo before October 7th, in a way that sets us up for another round of this as we have seen in the past. We're not interested in that conversation.

ZAKARIA: So let's talk about that political path. Is what you're saying, that you would be willing to be part of the solution regarding the Palestinians, and I think you've said in the past publicly that you would be willing to continue to move toward discussions with Israel about normalization. If and only if there was, as you put it, an irreversible path to Palestinian statehood, in other words, not just conversations, talks, but a plan that to you seems irreversible.

AL-SAUD: Absolutely. And I think, Fareed, that's the consensus of all -- of everybody in the international community. When I talk to the Europeans, even when I, you know, what I hear from the Americans, everybody agrees that the only way to get out of the cycle of violence is to inevitably be on this path to a Palestinian state and that's absolutely necessary and that's what we're focused on.

ZAKARIA: So you've seen the news reports I'm sure that Prime Minister Netanyahu told his coalition that the reason he was going to be able to stay in power is -- it's something to the effect, I am the only person who will prevent the creation of a Palestinian state. How can that prime minister be your interlocutor as you've been trying to normalize relations with Israel?

AL-SAUD: I mean, it's up to the Israeli people to decide who the prime minister is. I'm not going to get into that discussion. I will just say that in order for the region to see true peace, to see (INAUDIBLE), real integration that delivers economic and social benefits for all of us, including Israel, is through peace, through a credible irreversible process through a Palestinian state. We are fully really, not just as Saudi Arabia but as Arab countries to engage in that conversation. I would hope that the Israelis would be as well. But it's up to them to make that decision.

ZAKARIA: But are you saying unequivocally that if there is not a credible and irreversible path to a Palestinian state, there will not be normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel?

AL-SAUD: That's the only way we're going to get a benefit, so yes. Because we need stability and only stability will come through resolving the Palestinian issue.

ZAKARIA: That is a very frank and direct answer to a question for a diplomat, and so I will use that as the opportunity to thank you, Foreign Minister, for a very productive discussion.

AL-SAUD: Thank you very much.


ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, I will talk to the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia's biggest rival in the region, Iran.



ZAKARIA: The conflict in the Middle East is growing wider by the minute. This week saw a stunning and potentially dangerous turn of events as Iran launched strikes against both Pakistan and Iraq, saying it was targeting terror in both countries. Then Pakistan struck back against Iran. And this of course was after more rounds of U.S. strikes on the Iran-backed Houthis in Yemen. And Israel and Hezbollah, the rebel group operating out of Lebanon, with the support of Iran, have been trading cross-border fire since Israel's invasion of Gaza.

The Iranian foreign minister, Hossein Amir-Abdollahian, sat down with me in Davos on Wednesday where I pressed him on these developments.


ZAKARIA: And Minister, let me ask you. You came on my program and Bianna Golodryga, my colleague interviewed you on October 29th, and she asked you, do you want the war to spread and you said no, we do not want the war to spread, we do not want escalation. Since then, Hezbollah has launched attacks against Israel, the Houthis are attacking ships in the Red Sea, you have attacked Iraq, you have attacked Pakistan.

It certainly seems like the actions of Iran and its allies do not suggest that you are trying to keep this war from spreading. It seems as though you are encouraging an escalation.


HOSSEIN AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): I agree with you. The west of Asia right now, we are witnessing the enlargement of the crisis in the tensions. But these tensions are not rooted in what happened on the 7th of October. Hamas is a Palestinian liberation group that has been fighting against occupation to liberate the occupied territories of Palestine. They carried out an operation.

Of course, we never agree with or approve of the killing of women and children anywhere in the world. But I want to tell you that it is not rooted in what happened on the 7th of October. It is rooted in 75 years ago, when Palestine was occupied by the Israeli regime.

From the very beginning of the Israeli genocidal war in Gaza which followed the October operation, we gave warnings if the attacks, the war crimes and genocide against Gaza and the West Bank do not stop, the war will spread out. It will become larger. It doesn't mean that we wanted to play a role in this enlargement.

ZAKARIA: You felt Iran had the right to respond to what you described as terror attacks and terrorist groups that were attacking Iran by -- and you retaliated in Iraq and in Pakistan. Why does Israel not have the right to retaliate to the October 7th terrorist attack?

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): What we did against the Mossad base in Kurdistan, and also against Jaish Al-Adl, the terrorist group inside Pakistan, they have nothing to do with the situation in Gaza. But the Yemeni front --

ZAKARIA: No, but you're retaliating against terrorism and the Israelis said they're retaliating against a terror attack on them.

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): We don't consider Hamas a terrorist group. Hamas is a Palestinian liberation movement that has been formed against the Israeli occupation. We cannot erase history. For 75 years, we have had the occupation of Palestine. This is a reality. What about the rights of Palestine?

ZAKARIA: But it's also a reality that they did launch an attack on innocent women, elderly people, civilians, raped, used rape as an instrument of war. You say you condemn all this presumably because it is terrorist activity. Doesn't Israel have the right to respond?

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): What about Palestinians? Are they not human beings? What about their rights?

ZAKARIA: Let me ask you about the Red Sea and these ships. Is there a situation in which Iran would get involved and start blocking ships in the Straits of Hormuz?

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): First off, we do care about maritime security and shipping safety. Our exports, our oil exports are done by the sea, so the security of the Red Sea and the Oman Sea and the Persian Gulf are very, very important to us. We benefit from it. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to export our oil. ZAKARIA: You didn't answer whether you will -- will Iran start --

involve itself in blocking any ships? I think your answer is no?

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): We have always been on the positive side of the developments in the region. You should not forget that in the past years, in order to fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, and in the region, some of our best military attaches were killed and martyred. The security of the region is our own security.

ZAKARIA: What about Hezbollah? Do you believe that Hezbollah is going to get more involved in more attacks and counterattacks in Israel?

AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN (through translator): In the last 100 days, I held talks twice with Mr. Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah, the honorable secretary general of Hezbollah. I asked him, Mr. Secretary General, if Israel's attacks against Gaza stop, will Hezbollah's attack stop, too? He said, yes, because we got involved in this because we wanted to defend the people of Palestine and if they stop, we will stop, too.



ZAKARIA: Thanks to the Iranian foreign minister for that interview. Next on GPS, at a time when western support for Ukraine appears to be waning to some, a very important message from two of Ukraine's bravest. These soldiers will tell you why they fight and what's at stake.


MARIIA NAZAROVA, UKRAINIAN COMBAT MEDIC: Justice will soon fly F-16s. Justice is an FPV drone assembled by Ukrainians volunteer at home. Justice is us. And if you're helping Ukraine, you're serving justice. So, thank you for doing that. And please don't ever stop because we did not stop.




ZAKARIA: In a month, Ukraine will mark two years since Russia's invasion. And today, Ukrainian officials are leading the fight on many fronts including the battle against war fatigue in the West.

Ukraine's leadership was in full force in Davos reminding other nations of the importance of defeating Russian aggression. I moderated a panel on Ukraine with top officials from that country and from around the world. I want you to hear the words of three Ukrainians. First the nation's foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, then two Ukrainian soldiers who will explain so eloquently why they fight. Listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZAKARIA: Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba. Dmytro, my question to you will be two parts. One, what is it specifically that Ukraine needs most urgently? Help us understand what is the need right now.

And secondly, you've now been at Davos, had back-to-back meetings. Are you coming out of this emboldened? Do you feel more confident? Do you feel more reassured? Or are you worried and is there a lot more work to be done?

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We are. We are encouraged. We are reassured by the meetings here in Davos and by the reception that was given to President Zelenskyy.

His address resonated very well in the audience because he addressed the issue that stems to the core of the discussion which is the concept of don't escalate. We've been hearing since day one, don't escalate here. We cannot do this because we don't want to escalate there. None of the prophecies, apocalyptic prophecies of Russian retaliation proved true.

Answering your first question, there are two elements which I would like to mention. The first one is obviously air defense. And air defense consists of planes, consists of missiles, consists of air defense platforms and interceptors, and electronic warfare. This is a complex -- and if we protect our sky, if we throw Russia from the sky, we will be in a much stronger position to define the time when this war ends, with the victory of Ukraine. The one who controls the sky controls the end of the war.

Second, frozen assets. If we take frozen assets, Russian assets frozen in only three countries, Britain, Luxembourg and Switzerland, we can repair all infrastructure damaged in Ukraine. Airports, bridges, roads, everything.

If we take the $180 billion assets stored in the Euroclear in Belgium, we can have a lot of weapons. We can have a lot of recovery. We can repair hospitals, schools. Russia must pay.

And we don't buy the arguments about legal constraints, about financial regulations. Guys, when you want to do something, when politicians say we need to do this, bankers and lawyers alike, they find solutions because this is what they are being paid for.

ZAKARIA: Let me transition to something slightly different which is I'd like to hear from two Ukrainians who have been in combat. Mariia Nazarova is a combat medic for the National Association of Emergency Medical Technicians, a tactical medical instructor. What would you like to say to this group?

NAZAROVA: Good morning. My name is Maria. I will be turning 28. And I joined the forces in 2014 when the war started when I was 18. And you may have some pity for that or thought that it could be some wasted youth, but it is not. I had all the normal things like any of you can relate. I had first love, learning how to drive, getting medical education and all with the army, in the army, and during the war. And it's not any wasted opportunity because I have been doing what I do best as a combat medic. And I have been doing what is best for my country.

I have been doing justice for generations of my people that have been tortured, killed, whose assets have been taken from them, who were starved, who were sent to concentration camps by empires, by communists, by Soviet Union.

Justice will soon fly F-16s. Justice is an FPV drone assembled by Ukrainians volunteer at home. Justice is us.


And if you're helping Ukraine, you're serving justice. So, thank you for doing that. And please don't ever stop because we did not stop through our whole youth, and we will not ever stop until the evil is defeated.

Thank you all. Slava Ukraini.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, Mariia. And let's now hear from Oleksandr Batalov who is a gunner-medic in the armed forces in Ukraine who is right here up front.

OLEKSANDR BATALOV, UKRAINIAN GUNNER-MEDIC (through translator): Good morning, everyone. I'm Oleksandr Batalov. I'm a gunner-medic. I used to be a civilian. I was a masseur and I worked in a salon and I loved my work.

But when my country needed me, in order to ensure that we can protect our country, I joined the armed forces of Ukraine and I served honestly until I was wounded six months ago. I worked with my unit close to Bakhmut. And upon being wounded I stayed for six and a half hours on the field because I couldn't be medevac.

You should understand how difficult it is when you are lying under shelling for six and a half hours and nobody can help you. Nobody can salvage you from there. And the only thing that inspired me then was the thought of my wife and my family.

Our families, our wives, our parents, our children, give us the strength to stand tall, to move forward, to fight for every meter of our territory, not only to fight for freedom. Because freedom is not a word to us. It is being with our families in our cozy homes, walking in the street with our children and enjoying life.

I lost my leg but I haven't lost my dignity and my willingness to continue living. I will be hiking in the future. I am sure. I will be enjoying the summer with my sisters and brothers in arms and I will enjoy life.

Thank you very much. Stand with Ukraine. Glory to Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, I'll bring you my interview with the renowned primatologist and conservationist Jane Goodall. We talked about the lessons she learned when she did her pioneering work living among chimpanzees stretching back more than 60 years ago. She inspires me greatly. I am quite sure she will inspire you.



ZAKARIA: When Jane Goodall was just 26 years old, she left her home in England and traveled to Tanzania to live with and study chimpanzees in the wild. That was a radical idea at the time, more than 60 years ago, observing these little-known creatures in such proximity.

Goodall's discoveries fundamentally shifted the way we understand animals, human beings, and the relationship between the two. Her time in Tanzania also inspired a personal mission, to protect the natural world from the threats of human activity.

At nearly 90 years old, Goodall travels nearly 300 days a year raising awareness of the effects of climate change, training a new generation of conservationists, and spreading a message of hope. I had the honor of speaking with her on stage at the World Economic Forum this week.


ZAKARIA: Jane Goodall, it's a pleasure to be with you again.

JANE GOODALL, PRIMATOLOGIST AND CONSERVATIONIST: Fareed, it's wonderful to be back with you.

ZAKARIA: So, you're 90 this year.

GOODALL: Yes, I'm 90. Just imagine 90 years on planet Earth. What changes I've seen.

ZAKARIA: Let me take you back to the past and ask you when you went to Gombe and you started to live with the chimpanzees, what do you -- what are the lessons you learned from that? If you were to summarize, what -- that's such an unusual experience none of us have had it. Give us a sense of what you learned.

GOODALL: First of all, it was amazing and exciting because nobody had done it. I was the first one. And the first thing that emerged was, gosh, how like us they are.

I mean, we didn't even know then that we share 98.7 percent of our DNA. But watching them -- you know, two chimpanzees greeting, they'll embrace and kiss and hold hands and pet one another. A chimpanzee who is frightened and needs reassurance will go up to a dominant one and probably be embraced or gently pattered.

The lovely relationship between mothers and their growing offspring that can last to a life of up to 60 years in the wild. They use and make tools. That was the big observation that changed everything because it was thought humans and only humans use and made tools.

So sadly, they can show brutality. They can kill. They have a kind of primitive war. But also like us, they can show love and compassion and true altruism.

And although when I went, I haven't been to college. My mentor, Louis Leakey, decided I needed a degree and there was no time. He said, we can't mess with an undergraduate degree. I have got you a place in Cambridge University to do a PhD in ethology. I didn't even know what ethology was, a study of behavior.


Can you imagine how I felt when these erudite professors told me I've done everything wrong, chimps should be numbered, not named, you can't talk about personality, mind or emotion, those are unique to us? In other words, there's a sharp line with us humans on one side and all of the rest of the animals are nearly pointed that way. All the rest of the animals on the other side.

And, so, fortunately, when I was a child, I had a wonderful teacher, and he taught me, in this respect, these professors are wrong, and it was my dog. I mean, you can have a dog, a cat, a horse, a bird, I don't care, and not know we're not the only beings with personalities, minds and emotions. So now students can study those things and the chimps helped to break that barrier down. That was the most exciting.

ZAKARIA: The accounts in the film are vivid on this. You also saw violence. Describe the nature of that violence that you saw with chimpanzees?

GOODALL: Oh, it's horrifying. It's really horrifying. If they see a stranger from a neighboring community, they will give chase. And if they catch that unfortunate victim, they will attack and leave the individual to die of wounds inflicted. They all die when they are being attacked like that. So, you know, we seem to have inherited not only the nice side of chimp nature, but the nasty side too.

ZAKARIA: What do you think chimp domination rituals tell us?

GOODALL: Well, when two males are competing for dominance, they will try and look as big and aggressive as they possibly can. They stand upright. They swagger. They may shake their fists. They kind of make a scowly face. Can you think of male politicians behaving just like that?

ZAKARIA: So, in 2016 you said that Donald Trump's behavior reminded you of chimp domination rituals.

GOODALL: Well, it was particularly during the election with him against Hillary Clinton. And I've seen shots where he literally -- you know, it is not just Donald Trump, but there are many human male and female competing for dominance in various situations, and they behave like chimpanzees.

ZAKARIA: When you think about the problems you're trying to address, do you think that -- do they require very specific policy changes? Or is it something even deeper than that, a broader -- kind of a reconceptualization of our relationship with nature?

GOODALL: Yes, I think it's -- I think it's definitely. But also, a new understanding of our economic world today.

ZAKARIA: Meaning?

GOODALL: Even though people want -- say they want to acquire power and sometimes that means acquiring money. And so, think of the people that you've met who have so much more than they need. And it was Mahatma Gandhi who said, the world can provide for human need but not human greed.

And so, it's this mindlessness, really, of having so much more than you need, so much more. But you can be totally happy as long as you have enough to eat, as long as you can look after your family, as long as you have a roof over your head, and a way of keeping warm. What more do we really need?

ZAKARIA: And do you think as we become more urbanized, we are losing touch with the natural world?

GOODALL: We absolutely are and it's terrifying. You know, all the years I've spent in Gombe with the chimpanzees, I was out in the rain forest by myself, had this close spiritual connection with the natural world, and it has been proven now that we actually need the natural world physically and mentally.

And in Japan and Canada, doctors can prescribe time in nature. So, in our youth program, we try and get young people out into nature. And that's why it's so desperately important that we save the natural world.

We're destroying it so fast. We're destroying the forest. We're destroying the ocean.

ZAKARIA: Do you worry that there's increasingly so much nationalism in the world that we aren't collaborating as much as we should?

GOODALL: We are certainly are not collaborating as much as we should. And, you know, nature and -- it's the future of our children and grandchildren. It's the future of life as we know it on planet Earth, and that should not be superseded by differences in religion or differences in, you know, cultures and so forth.


The things that are dividing people now. And that is why -- because I understand that 40 countries are having elections this year. So, let's urge everybody to vote for those people who do care about the future, who do care about mitigating climate change, because that's the long- term. We seem to forget the decisions we make today will actually affect the future. We think only of here and now.

ZAKARIA: All right. This has been really -- something quite special and, you know, really unique for me as well. We spend a lot of time with, as you said, people -- at Davos with people who have lots of power and lots of money, but I suspect you are the happiest person I will meet this week. In the sense of being really doing -- you're fulfilling what your life's plan was. Thank you, Jane Goodall.


ZAKARIA: Thanks to the World Economic Forum for hosting us this week. Thanks to all of our terrific guests. And thanks to all of you for being part of our program this week. I will see you next week back in New York.