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Fareed Zakaria GPS

Interview with Andriy Yermak; Interview with Ayman Safadi; Interview With Award-Winning Actor And Producer Michael Douglas; Interview With U.S. Ambassador To Japan Rahm Emanuel. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired April 21, 2024 - 10:00   ET



FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN ANCHOR: This is GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria coming to you live.

We'll begin today's program with the war in Ukraine and the American Congress' ability to affect it. Yesterday, the House passed a bill that will send much needed aid there. How will it change Kyiv's fortunes? I'll talk to President Zelenskyy's key aide, Andriy Yermak.

Then, is the tit-for-tat between Israel and Iran over at least for now? And what happens to Gaza after the war? The foreign minister of Jordan will be my guest.

Also the great actor Michael Douglas joins me to talk about his latest starring role. Playing America's first diplomat, Benjamin Franklin.

But first, here's my take. Bill Maher recently set on his show that the 2024 election was going to be fought over two issues. Immigration and abortion. The party that best navigates these cultural battlefields is likely to prevail in November.

Each party has an advantage, the Democrats on abortion and the Republicans on immigration. Roe v. Wade energized generations of conservative voters who felt deeply on the issue and were also outraged that courts had taken the question out of the democratic process. Now, it's abortion rights voters who are energized, fueled by states like Arizona that are putting in place draconian restrictions on abortion.

With the margins small in many swing states, abortion could be the issue that brings out suburban women who could tilt those states blue in November. On the other hand, the Republican Party is now led by Donald Trump, who on this issue as on many others is supremely opportunistic. Trump, of course, proudly supported abortion rights for years until he started floating with the political career with the Republican Party. At which point he reversed course fully.

Now that he sees it as politically problematic, he is shifting his stance once again. He has criticized Arizona's abortion ban and has pledged not to sign a national abortion ban if reelected. It might seem hard for him to backtrack. He's loudly and repeatedly taken credit for the repeal of Roe v. Wade and touted his anti-abortion credentials. But Donald Trump seems to be able to say anything and even do anything without losing the cult-like following he has with Republican voters.

He can appeal to the middle ground, certain that his base will stay with him. Joe Biden on the other hand does not have the fanatical following that Trump does. He has constructed a coalition carefully appealing to different groups with specific policies. If he loses one of these groups, his team fears that the math will not add up come election day.

But he needs to risk it and get tougher on immigration. It has become a proxy for all kinds of issues where people feel that elites simply don't get the concerns of average people, and their concerns are rooted in real facts on the ground. America has taken in huge numbers of immigrants over the last five decades.

In 1970, foreign born people made up 5.7 percent of the country. As of 2020, that number is 15.3 percent. And it's not just America. In Sweden, that number went from 6.6 percent in 1970 to 19.8 percent in 2020. In the U.K. from 5.3 percent to 13.8 percent.

As I note in my new book, "Age of Revolutions," the Western world has seen a wave of unprecedented migration. Considering the numbers and the cultural differences of the immigrants, people have actually been remarkably tolerant. What has changed recently is the sense that immigration is now happening without any legitimate process, with the system being gamed and laws being broken.

When Syrian migration engulfed Europe in 2015 Angela Merkel arbitrarily waived the usual procedures and Germany alone took in about 900,000 asylum seekers from several countries.


It is not a coincidence that the influx was followed by Brexit and the rise of right-wing populist in many European countries. In both the E.U. and the United States, gangs and cartels have recognized that they can game the asylum system by bringing in economic migrants who claim asylum and thus get the right to stay, have legal hearings, and eventually work.

Last fiscal year, nearly a million people applied for asylum in the U.S. In the E.U. last year, that number was more than 1.1 million. The waves of recent migrants have produced problems as anyone on the ground can confirm from New York City to El Paso to Stockholm. Sweden, today's home to one of the highest gun crime death rates in Europe, and it's not a coincidence that its second largest political party now is one that traces its roots to World War II era fascism.

The Biden administration has made the case that it has put in place a set of well-crafted policies to limit asylum seekers, that it needs congressional action to do more, and that Republicans want this problem to fester so they can reap its electoral benefits. All true but Biden must show that he can fight. He should declare a national security emergency, send the National Guard to the border, work with Congress to suspend the asylum process entirely and propose a new one that basically makes it impossible to get asylum if you just show up at the border.

Many will scream and it will be challenged in court. But it will signal that Joe Biden is taking the problem really seriously. Bill Clinton often says that the American people don't always need you to succeed. But they want to catch you trying. Joe Biden needs to be caught trying to solve the immigration crisis.

Go to to read my column this week and com/Fareed for a link to buy my new book, "Age of Revolutions," which I very much hope you will get, and let's get started.


REP. MARC MOLINARO (R-NY): The bill was passed. One voting present.


ZAKARIA: Cheers from the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives as it handed Ukraine a lifeline by passing a bill that allocates more than $60 billion in aid to the fight against Russia. The Senate is expected to pass it this week before President Biden signs it into law. It is the first major aid package for Ukraine in well over a year and it comes at a vital time as Moscow inches forward in the east and Kyiv's forces appear outmanned and outgunned.

Last night, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the funding would be used to bring a just end to this war, a war that Putin must lose.

Joining me from Kyiv is Andriy Yermak. He is a key member of President Zelenskyy's inner circle and heads the president's office.

Andriy, pleasure to have you on. First, let me ask you, now that this aid has passed, do you expect to see results in the -- on the field very quickly? I know you were on the frontlines yesterday.

ANDRIY YERMAK, HEAD, OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Hello, Fareed. I'm happy to be today in your show, and yes, of course, thank you very much for these questions and I'd like to start to express the words of gratitude for the Congress, for the House of Representatives, for the yesterday historical decisions. We're also gratitude to the American people, to the President Biden and his administration.

It's significant for us. And of course no doubt that it's increased our odds to defeat the aggressors, especially now that we are listened and see that the Russia preparing for the new counteroffensive. And of course now the questions and we are looking that in Senate it will (INAUDIBLE) as quick as possible beginning of next week. And of course after will be signed by President Biden and delivery of the so important weapons will be very quick because I can repeat that it's really momentum and it's really very urgent.

ZAKARIA: Thank you so much, Andriy. What are the weapons you need the most and are they new ones like the long-range ATACAMs? And mostly do you still need planes because you still -- the great challenge Ukraine has you do not have control of the air. YERMAK: You're absolutely right. And we -- I can -- to list it, what is urgent we need. We need 155 ammunitions, we need ATACAMs missiles, we need drones, we need electronic warfares. We are really have the problems in our sky. And -- more air defense, especially missiles for the Patriots and the Patriot system itself because we unfortunately can't protect our city, and protect our people. You know that we have the attack practically every day and every night in such city like Zaporizhzhia, like Kharkiv, like Kherson, like Mykolaiv, like Odessa. And of course this is what we need and need very quick because it's cost lives of our people.

ZAKARIA: The Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Kharkiv is next. Are you expecting a Russian attack on Kharkiv, and are you prepared for it?

YERMAK: You know, these people from Kremlin, a lot of said during these two years. But Ukraine never be occupied, I mean, fully Ukraine never be occupied by Russian aggressors. It's impossible. And first of all, it's impossible because our great nation has continued to fighting, and now after yesterday's decision of the House of Representatives of course it's helped us to be more strong, and of course, our heroes in the frontlines and the people in many cities of Ukraine is continue to fight -- to fighting.

And of course, yes, we know about that Russia not stop to planning to continue their aggressive policy against Ukraine. They still not recognized our sovereignty and they not recognize, and not be ready to accept the existence of Ukrainian nation. And what more -- increase and back to the Soviet Union period of the influence. It's mean that he won't negotiate, he wants dominate, but he will not receive this and not yet this goal because Ukrainians saw during these two years together with the partners that it's impossible. Democracy will win. Ukraine will win, I'm sure about it.

ZAKARIA: Andriy Yermak, pleasure to have you on as always. Thank you, sir.

YERMAK: Thank you, Fareed. Thank you very much. And thank you, America.

ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, the foreign minister of Jordan will talk to me about the tit-for-tat between Iran and Israel and the war in Gaza. We'll be back with that in a moment.



According to a U.S. official, Israel carried out a strike on Iran on Friday morning. The attack near a military base in the province of Isfahan was the latest salvo in a dangerous tit-for-tat between the two of our enemies. The limited scope, though, appears to have cool tensions instead of further escalating them.

Meanwhile, the war in Gaza rages on. The Health Ministry there said Sunday that 48 people had been killed in the previous 24 hours. Joining me to discuss it all is the Deputy Prime Minister of Jordan and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ayman Safadi.

Mr. Minister, pleasure to have you on. So let me first ask you whether you agree with the assessment that Iran versus Israel, the tensions are de-escalating, or do you still worry that things could spiral back out of control?

AYMAN SAFADI, JORDANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Good day to you, sir, and thank you for having me. But for now, the latest round seems to have been contained. Everybody has done a lot of work to make sure that this does not spiral off into major regional confrontation.

That said, I think we all have to do a lot of work to make sure that we address the whole sort of ecosystem, all the causes of tension in the region, and particularly the focus should remain on Gaza, where you just said that the killing continues and the conflict doesn't seem to offer any horizon for ending. So that needs to be the focus, and that's where all of us need to be concentrating right now.

ZAKARIA: But do you believe that Israel is going to be content with, you know, allowing the status quo as it is? As you know there are people in Israel who say they should settle scores with Hezbollah, that they need to deliver a blow up north. A lot of Israelis, almost 100,000, have left their homes in the north. Is there a danger that that dynamic starts up now?

SAFADI: Absolutely. I mean, the one to benefit most from the latest escalation with Iran was Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, because it did help divert attention away from Gaza and from the aggression that continues to rage on. The reality is that the tension remains high, and unless we're able to bring it into the war on Gaza and create a political horizon that would take us towards a once-and-for-all solution on the basis of the two-state solution, danger of escalation remains there by intention or by miscalculation.

Israelis are saying a lot of things. I mean, the Israeli government. But what have -- what they've been doing and saying gotten us other than more conflict, more tension, hatred, dehumanization, and a destruction of the whole Palestinian community in Gaza.

ZAKARIA: You point out that Bibi Netanyahu does benefit when -- when the war goes in another direction. Do you believe that Bibi Netanyahu will try to keep this war going because it keeps him in office and keeps, you know, avoids certain political and maybe legal problems he has?

SAFADI: All indications point to that conclusion. He has said publicly that he's going to continue with the war on Gaza, despite advice even from his biggest supporter, which is the United States, voices from Europe, from the region. We're all saying, stop this war. Let's create a political path that will address the root cause of the issue, that will guarantee peace and security for Palestinians and Israelis.

Unfortunately, the Israeli Prime Minister continues to -- with the war on Gaza, endangering not just the Palestinians, endangering the whole region and hurting the long interest of Israel itself, because the war is going to have to end and the dust will settle. And once that happens, we're all going to have to grapple with the reality where we've lost 30 years of effort to normalize the idea of peace.

So this is the challenge. And we cannot have Netanyahu doom the future of the region to more conflict, nor can we allow him to continue with this war that is, again, producing nothing but war, destruction, killing and harming the interest of all, including the U.S., including Europe, including all of us over the region.

ZAKARIA: What are you hearing with regard to the Israeli attack on Rafah? Is it going to happen? Is Bibi listening to the Biden administration and many others who have cautioned him not to do it? Or is he just going to do it anyway?

SAFADI: I mean, first of all, let me emphasize this attack should be prevented no matter what. It will produce nothing but a massacre, giving the concentration of the people and giving the already miserable reality that the war on Gaza has created.

Unfortunately, again, all the statements coming out from Israel is indicating that Netanyahu is going to go ahead with that war. He's not listened to the U.S. on even less significant issues pertaining to allowing more aid into Gaza and the siege of Gaza and the use of weapon as starving the Palestinians. So it looks like Netanyahu is sending all signals that he's going to attack Rafah. All of us should weigh down heavily on the Israeli government not to do that, because, again, that will just drag us more into the mud. And this madness will manifest itself in even more dangerous ways than we have seen thus far.

ZAKARIA: How -- what is the situation, meanwhile, on the West Bank? Because Jordan monitors that piece of this very carefully because, of course, you are joining it. Is it your sense that things are pretty tense there with the -- between Palestinians and Israelis?

SAFADI: Facts speak for themselves there. We've seen over the last 24 hours a major attack in Tulkarm (ph), resulting in the killing and wounding of tens of Palestinians. We've seen settler terrorism continuing. In the past few days, we've seen multiple settler attacks resulting, again, in death and injuries. We see continuation of land confiscation. We see only yesterday announcement of legalizing more outposts.


So, to put it short, the situation in the West Bank is boiling. We're at the edge. And, again, if the West Bank explodes, we're talking about a different nightmare here, a bigger nightmare, and not just the killing of the political horizon, but the actual measures on the ground are pushing the situation towards explosion. And that is, again, something that needs to be avoided, working very closely with the U.S., with the Europeans. And we're communicating to the Israelis directly. And we're coordinating with the Palestinian Authority to make sure we do not get to that dangerous point. But, unfortunately, again, Netanyahu is not listening. Radicals in his government continue with pushing the agenda towards more conflict, towards more incitement. And the danger is still real. And if that danger hits us, then, again, it's going to involve us more in yet more catastrophic conditions in the region.

ZAKARIA: I only have a little bit of time left. But, Minister, I do want to ask you, Jordan is 50% roughly, Palestinian. You feel these pressures most strongly. People are radicalized. Is there a possibility that Jordan will break relations with Israel on its operations in Gaza?

SAFADI: We will do whatever we believe will help in this war, will help put us on a track towards peace. We did recall our ambassador from Israel. But I think what we keep focused on here in Jordan is do what we've always done, which is try to work for a just and lasting peace that will fulfill the Palestinians' legitimate right to freedom and statehood and guarantee the security of Israel.

If we believe anything that we believe will help, we will do. We don't believe ending the peace treaty is going to be helpful. I think that will only benefit radicals on the Israeli side and the Israeli government. That will just make the situation more tense. What we want is peace. What we want is security for all.

And you've seen the amount of pressure we've come under during the latest escalation between Israel and Iran. And our message to both parties was --

ZAKARIA: That was -- I thank the Foreign Minister. I think we froze.

We will be back with a fascinating conversation with Michael Douglas playing Benjamin Franklin.



ZAKARIA: What do an idealistic American president, a wicked Wall Street investor and Liberace have in common? Well, these roles have all been brilliantly played on screen by my next guest, the Oscar award-winning actor and producer Michael Douglas. Michael won an Academy award for best actor for his role as Gordon Gekko in the 1987 film "Wall Street."


MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING ACTOR AND PRODUCER: Greed, for a lack of a better word, is good.


ZAKARIA: His rich career in film and theater spans nearly 60 years. He is now adding America's first diplomat to his list of roles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What on earth are you meant to be?

DOUGLAS: An American.


ZAKARIA: Michael is currently staring as Benjamin Franklin in the Apple TV plus series "Franklin." Welcome, sir.

DOUGLAS: Fareed, it is an honor to be here. I'm a big, big fan of your show, so thank you for having me.

ZAKARIA: Thank you. Now, it feels very appropriate because what you are portraying is not just Franklin, but Franklin at a moment of -- it is one of the great moments of diplomacy in history. You know, tell us about that.

DOUGLAS: Well, it is and it's one that people don't seem to know that much about Franklin. I didn't. And I think we all have from our sixth- grade education, we know the Franklin had hardly any schooling at all, but two years of schooling, left at 12. We know him as a publisher, a great, great writer, University of Pennsylvania, libraries, post offices, and all his inventions.

But when he was 70, right after they declared independence, they signed it in July 4th of 1776. Six weeks after that, the founding fathers get together and said, Ben, we need you to go to France because General Washington is suffering. We've been fighting the British now for more than a year. We're in bad shape, rag-tag army, have no ships. We want you to go to France and woo Louis XVI, the largest, you know, monarchy in the world to support this little tiny democracy that America has just been formed.

And so, he went over there and ended up spending eight years trying to woo and cajole with all of the complications that existed with spies and backstabbers and all that to get France to support America. And the truth be told if it was not for France's support, we would not have had America. It would have been a British colony for, I don't know, how much longer.

ZAKARIA: And he had no background in diplomacy?

DOUGLAS: None. I mean, he was -- I think they probably picked him because he was a bit of a rock star. He was very famous in France, particularly because of his experiments with electricity. And he was probably a bit of a seducer. You know, he's quite a philanderer in his day. I wouldn't want to been his wife, and would imbibe, it had this vast knowledge, but was just incredibly effective going over there.


ZAKARIA: When you portray powerful people, you portrayed Gordon Gekko the, you know, great Wall Street tycoon. You portrayed these other characters, the American president in "The American President." Do you think that there is some common trait that power -- you know, is there something you say to yourself, I've got a puff up my -- you know, is there something you do?

DOUGLAS: Actually, it's the opposite, Fareed, because with powerful people, the audience or the other people already know all about you. So, with like Ben Franklin he has this incredible resume. You know, Gordon Gekko had this great resume. President Andrew Shepherd, were president.

So, you can actually play against that because you're going to be the humble -- oh, look at him, for Gekko's case, but in Ben Franklin and everything, because the audience knows so much about you, you don't have to push. So, in a strange way, it's a -- you become a little more passively and let them come to you.

ZAKARIA: Did you find that there was something about Ben Franklin? You know, actors sometimes say there's a trick, there's something that made me understand his personality either a gesture or a voice or something. What do you -- was there something that was at the core of Ben Franklin?

DOUGLAS: His curiosity. He had an immense curiosity and he had the mindset to try to be able to complete a whole picture. I mean, the way I think of it is when we all have ideas, but it's very few, we can take our ideas and link them together to a full -- a full consensus.

And in this era, he reminds me a bit of Elon Musk. You know, he had that same kind of wild imagination about taking things that were impossible, a good self-deprecating sense of humor and all that. Some differences, of course.

ZAKARIA: You are -- you also have great curiosity. And you have often I've noticed taking something from your roles and applied it to your real life. So, very famously you're a very -- you're very active on nuclear non-proliferation and all that came out of "The China Syndrome," right?

DOUGLAS: Correct.

ZAKARIA: I read somewhere that you have taken from Ben Franklin his love of Marcus Aurelius.

DOUGLAS: I have. I have -- I have become a stoic. I've started doing a lot of reading about stoicism and I'm very impressed and do thank -- do thank Benjamin Franklin for giving me that.

ZAKARIA: What does it mean to you to be a stoic?

DOUGLAS: Well, it's something -- somewhere between the Protestant (ph) ethic and my own Judeo roots. But it basically involves being the best you could be every single day. Not reaching necessarily outside of yourself, but nurturing what is inside of yourself, and drawing the best from everybody that you're around and giving the best that you can give.

In the Jewish faith, they have an expression called tikkun olam, which means to repair the world to make it a better place. And I -- we have to remember that stoicism, 300 years B.C., was -- that was it. That was the major, major faith. And Christianity seemed to push it to the side. But there's a lot of qualities that I've find very helpful now.

ZAKARIA: So, a Jewish stoic?

DOUGLAS: Yes, a Jewish stoic. Exactly.

ZAKARIA: When we come back, I'll ask Michael Douglas what he thinks about an 81-year-old president entering his second term.



ZAKARIA: And we are back with Michael Douglas talking about his new series "Franklin" on Apple TV plus. Let's talk about age. You're about President Biden's age. You're doing fantastically. You look like a million bucks.

DOUGLAS: Thank you.

ZAKARIA: Why don't you run for president?

DOUGLAS: I did the movie once, you know, but I knew how --

ZAKARIA: Did it ever tempt you?

DOUGLAS: Well, I knew -- I had the ending. So, the difference to the happy ending. No, they asked me to run for governor a couple of times in California, an earlier time. And I remember saying, well, where do you want me -- they said, well, we need a man who can finance his own campaign.

So, yes. You know, who has a credibility, notoriety, who is well-known around and everything. And I remember saying, are you sure you're not looking for a kamikaze pilot? I said, I don't think so.

ZAKARIA: So, you and Biden are about the same age. Do you think -- you know, are you one of those people who wished he had bowed out, let the field choose somebody else? How do you -- how do you think about that?

DOUGLAS: Well, I think -- I think that I walk a little similar to him. And the people that I've talked to and everybody that I have say, he's as sharp as a tack. He's fine.

We all have an issue with memories. As we get older, we forget names, something. He has overcome a stutter in his life, sometimes he might. But let's just say that his entire cabinet, including his vice president, everybody says cabinet, would be more than happy to work with him again in the next term.


I cannot say that about the other candidate running because nobody in his -- in his cabinet from 2016 wants to be involved with him.

ZAKARIA: Do you -- do you think when you -- you know, everyone says, yes, he is OK now, but -- you know, what's it going to be like the next four or five years? But you're -- you're going to work for the next four or five years. You're not retiring.

DOUGLAS: Well, I'm not. However, I will say we did "Franklin" in 2022. And after 165 days of shooting, for seven months, I haven't worked since. So, I took '23 off and we're going into '24. And I must say I'm enjoying the time off. And I think he'll be fine. Thank you very much.

We have -- this is probably the most important election of my lifetime. I share with my kids, to the Vietnam War, this is the most critical time in my lifetime, and I can remember where we're at right now. We need somebody in control, in power, who has some experience and knows how to work on a global situation. The world -- you can't ask for one side for us to be active globally, but then internally say we're just going to isolate. It doesn't work that way anymore.

I think this is a year also for us to really remind ourselves about local elections. And I figured if we're going to kind of adjust, we have to start from the bottom-up, not from the top-down. And so, I think all of us who vote for presidents should be actively involved in our local elections too.

ZAKARIA: Well, this is an honor and a pleasure. And what a career. I mean, we are all in all for you.

DOUGLAS: You're very kind, Fareed. Keep going, keep on it. I can't wait to see you again on Sunday.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, sir.

DOUGLAS: Thanks. Thanks very much.

ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, a Japanese company wants to take over an American institution that has been around since 1901. The White House doesn't like the idea. I'll tell you what's going on when we return.



ZAKARIA: And now for the last look. When Joe Biden hosted Japan's prime minister last week for a state visit, the president hailed the two countries' monumental alliance. But there has been friction over a bid by Japanese firm Nippon Steel to acquire the storied American company, U.S. Steel.

U.S. Steel formed in 1901, was involved in building major American bridges and iconic skyscrapers. It helped win World War II by supplying steel for ammunition and ships to land American forces. But over time, the lumbering giant struggled to compete with foreign rivals. It also fell behind domestic competitors who embrace innovation. The most recent figures put it at 27th among the world's steel producers.

In December, U.S. Steel agreed to a takeover by Nippon Steel, which offered to pay 40 percent over the stock price. Nippon would inject innovation and efficiency into the ailing American company but the deal is in jeopardy. The Steelworkers union is suspicious of the new management and opposes the acquisition. Prominent Republicans and Democrats have come out against it, including President Biden.

The deal could be blocked on national security grounds though it strains credulity to say that a takeover by one of America's closest allies, as President Biden keeps saying, poses a threat. In fact, I would argue the deal is good for national security because it would bring much needed investment and expertise to bolster American steel production.

With the merger, Nippon would become the world's second-largest steel producer able to compete with the industry's biggest players who are mostly Chinese. Well, I recently spoke to the U.S. ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel. And if you watched last week's show, you saw a portion of our conversation already.

But I also pressed him about the Biden administration's position on this issue, which we didn't have time to air. And I wanted to bring that to you now. Emanuel joined me from North Carolina where Toyota is building a factory to produce electric batteries. Here is our exchange.


ZAKARIA: Mr. Ambassador, you've talked about how Japan is the pivotal ally for America in Asia, about how it has had a revolution, it's rising again, it's making huge investments in the United States.

You're in North Carolina, celebrate some of those investments. So, why then is the Biden administration opposing a Japanese company buying, frankly, a foundering U.S. company, U.S. Steel, rescuing it, promising to retain all the workers and honor the labor contracts? Why is the Biden administration opposed to Nippon Steel's bid to take -- to buy U.S. Steel?

RAHM EMANUEL, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN: Well, first of all, the president made a commitment to the American workers and he's good for his word, and he also made a commitment to the alliance --


ZAKARIA: But those working are going to be -- but those workers are going to be retained. Nippon is making a commitment no American company makes when it buys another company.

EMANUEL: Fareed, this is the interview part, not the debate part. So, the interview part is, one, let's be very clear what the policies are here and what the investment is. Six weeks earlier the president United States and the United States government gave Mitsui Corporation the ability to build a new factory for creating cranes for all our ports, because we're getting Chinese cranes that are a strategic threat out of our ports.


Nothing says trusted ally more than that $20 billion contract. Number two, in 2021, Toshiba was being pursued by foreign investors and Japan said, not allowed, it can't happen on national security grounds. So, you know, that's where the relationship is.

And number three, for the last four years, Japan has been the number one foreign investor in the United States. It funds and creates jobs for a million Americans who are employed like it's going to happen at the E.V. factory that Toyota is putting up. And that won't stop and will continue to be a trusted partner. And America's relationship with Japan and Japan's relationship with the United States is not based on one commercial deal.

We have a difference on it. It will be worked through, but the relationship is deeper and stronger than a single commercial deal. We can still be good to the American workers and still be true to our alliance, and not in conflict.


ZAKARIA: I want to thank Ambassador Emanuel for that spirited debate. And thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week.