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Fareed Zakaria GPS

Strike on Hezbollah Leader Shakes Middle East; Interview with Iran's President Masoud Pezeshkian. Interview With Iranian President Masoud Pezeshkian; Interview With Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Aired 10-11a

Aired September 29, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:43]

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN ANCHOR: This is GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria coming to you live from New York.

Today on the program, I bring you interviews with Iran's new president, Masoud Pezeshkian, and with the former British prime minister, Tony Blair.

We'll skip the take this week. There are simply too much breaking news. We'll get straight to it.

The crisis in the Middle East, it is in unchartered territory. On Friday, Israel killed longtime Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, in a massive strike in the southern suburbs of Beirut. The attack is part of a recent major escalation of Israeli air strikes against the Iranian proxy group in Lebanon. More than 1,000 people have been killed since the uptick last week, and hundreds of thousands of Lebanese have been displaced.

The attack on Nasrallah was a triumph for Israeli intelligence, but it also raises many questions.

Joining me now from Tel Aviv is Ronen Bergman, staff writer for "The New York Times" magazine.

Ronen, welcome. You are fantastic at reporting on these kinds of issues. How did Israel's intelligence figure out when Nasrallah was -- explain this operation because it seems like they've been trying to do this for years. How did they succeed?

RONEN BERGMAN, STAFF WRITER, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: They were deterred from doing that because they were very much afraid of an all- out war with Hezbollah and were afraid of the gloomiest consequences as the war between the IDF and Hezbollah like in 2006. But they were preparing for this moment. And this is a 15-years long operations to be deeply penetrating the inner circle of secrets of Hezbollah. And just to give an example, on October 10, the IDF brought a plan to kill Nasrallah in a bunker in Beirut.

This was not executed because of American pressure for Mr. Netanyahu didn't want that, but Nasrallah has been moved to a much secure bunker later that year and the Israelis knew that he is there, that the whole ballroom was moved to that place and knew when he's going to come, when he's going to chair this meeting of the jihad council, not just he was killed but many of his lieutenants and Iranian generals were killed as well.

The Israelis dropped 83 bombs, some of them bunker-busters in order to verify that everybody are dead.

ZAKARIA: So, it does feel to me like, you're right, that they've had the capacity and capability. This is the war they've been planning as opposed to the Gaza one that took them by surprise. And what the Hezbollah seems to have miscalculated on, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, is that Israel was frustrated by this idea of having this -- you know, this low-grade war in the north where its people, 60,000 Israelis displaced, they couldn't get back.

They already have a low-grade war in Gaza where they can't, you know, they're finding themselves mired. And so here what Israel decided was, we're going to do something very aggressive to break this dynamic and, you know, take advantage of all this intelligence we have. Does that -- is that a fundamental shift in Israeli thinking that they're willing now to take risks they were not?

BERGMAN: Well, Fareed, you know, sometimes in history things just happen by coincidence. In that case, the operation of selling Hezbollah 45,000 booby-trapped pagers was just about to be discovered, exposed by Hezbollah. Someone got suspicious.

[10:05:04]

And the chief of Mossad came to Prime Minister Netanyahu and said, if we do not pull the trigger a few days this will be revealed and probably because this is exposed they will look in anything they bought from foreign companies, any communication, and they will expose the other operation that preceded that. One of the walkie-talkie. And one thing led to another. But it's also a deep miscalculation by secretary -- the late secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah.

And amazingly, it's the same miscalculation he did in 2006. In 2006 he continuously tried to kidnap Israeli soldiers to exchange them for Hezbollah prisoners and Israeli prisons. And he didn't listen to any kind of warning that there will be a critical mass after which Israel will go to an all-out war. This time for a year. He launched an unprovoked war against Israel on low intensity.

He believed, and the Iranians believed, that Israel will be very hesitant and will never go to all-out war because the Israelis are afraid of the toll this will take on Israeli cities and critical infrastructure. He was right for a year but at the end he got it totally wrong. There was that critical mass after which Israel just went into the offense. And as you said, Fareed, the war that Israel has been planning for 18 years, that's the war they wanted to fight.

No hostages around and they were ready. And the consequences that they were much more ready than Hezbollah. ZAKARIA: It's fascinating what you say, Ronen, about the happenstance

of it because it does seem like the trigger was the fact that these pagers and cell phones were going to be discovered and then they decided, well, if we're going to use these it seems that they said we might as well go through with the plan we had, which was -- you know, because this was stage one, it kills all communications. It allows for phase two, which is destroy the weapons caches and the minor commanders, and then they went for phase three.

But what is the next phase in your view? So Israel has achieved this extraordinary success, really decimated Hezbollah. Now what do they do to keep it decimated? You know, in other words, this has always been part of what deterred them. They don't want to go back into southern Lebanon and occupied which they did for years and years and left after a deep frustration. What is the thinking about what Israel's next step is?

BERGMAN: There is a debate. One commander, the chief commander of the northern front of his lieutenants in favor of going only with ground maneuver. Other officers are saying, look, we have been failing in doing that for twice in the past in '82 and then in 2006, we should not go into this death trap. We, Israel, they say, is able to take down Hezbollah on its knees just using air power and special operations.

The question is, by the way, and I presented that question to many of the decision-makers leaders of the military, the intelligence, the political level, Israel has promised just two weeks ago, just before all of this new wave of attacks, the changing of the focus to the northern front leaving behind the southern front. This ongoing gloomy, destructive war and the hostages that Prime Minister Netanyahu has put on a very low priority, preferring the integrity of his coalition.

Now Israel has put a very clear target on -- a new target on the goals of the war, which is to bring back the 100,000 refugees that left their homes in the villages and the cities and the kibbitzes in the north, let them go back and live there safely and quietly for many, many years. And I'm not sure that there is a clear line connecting these very successful military raids and sophisticated special operations and the James Bond-Fauda-Tehran style booby trapped pagers operation with how exactly Israel is going to make sure that those 100,000, that suffered unbelievable misery during the last year will be able to continue the lives across the -- along the border between Israel and Lebanon.

[10:10:08]

And I'm not sure that Israel has a strategy, has an exit strategy how to translate those significant successes. As we said they decimated Hezbollah and they will continue to do that in the next day. They're assassinating people all the time. And they are trying to take down as much of the reserves of Hezbollah, started this war with 150,000 rockets and missiles but between this and a political solution, there's still a very long road and Israeli official saying, we need a mature grown-up basically. We need the U.S. government, but the U.S. government administration is

now dealing mainly, they believe, with the elections and so not necessarily an honest broker that would be investing all of its time and resources is to be found at least for now.

ZAKARIA: And very quickly and finally, Ronen, what does this mean for the next steps for Bibi Netanyahu? The feeling was that he was under pressure, he was under siege, he had to try and -- you know, there was concerns about him being held accountable for October 7th. He has, you know, his trial is going on. Has he once again found another life because his approval ratings are up? People sort this mission. Has Bibi outwit all his opponents one more time?

BERGMAN: I'm very bad with assessing the future. But this week has been I'm sure that Netanyahu concludes the last 11 days of attacking the north is good for his political career and he seems to be very much concerned with that future, with his career, with the integrity of his coalition. And I'm sure that the next polls of the Israeli public will show an increase in the support of Netanyahu and Likud Party that he's leading.

But at the end of the day, there are serious challenges to Israel, to the Israeli economy, to the Israeli military that were not solved when they exploded those pagers. They are 100 --

ZAKARIA: I got to let you go. I'm so sorry, Ronen, I got to let you go. We are going to come back to you for sure in the coming weeks to help us understand all this. Thank you.

BERGMAN: Thank you, Fareed.

ZAKARIA: What will Iran do next? I asked the president of Iran, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:17:23]

ZAKARIA: What will Iran do? Because Iran is of course the main backer of Hezbollah. In the wake of Nasrallah's death, Iran's supreme leader warned Israel that crushing blows would be coming. Iran's newly elected president, Masoud Pezeshkian, said that the militant had achieved his longstanding dream of martyrdom. Pezeshkian often regarded as a moderate saved some of his harshest words for the U.S. saying the order for this terrorist attack was issued from New York and the Americans cannot absolve themselves of complicity with the Zionists.

Well, I sat down with him in New York this week before the killing of Nasrallah. It was his first interview with Western media. I want to show you the interview because it really offers important insights into the mind of a man who is atop Iran's government.

I want you to hear what he told me about Hezbollah's military capabilities.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MASOUD PEZESHKIAN, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Hezbollah alone cannot stand against the country that is armed to the teeth with all the capacities it has at its disposal. Now if there is a need Islamic countries must convene a meeting in order to formulate a reaction to what is occurring.

What can Hezbollah do alone? The Islamic and regional countries must first sit together. And we must not allow Israel to create another Gaza in Lebanon. This will not come from Hezbollah's hands alone. Hezbollah cannot stand alone against a country that is being backed by the United States and the Europeans.

ZAKARIA: The government of Israel would of course say that the reason they are retaliating against Hezbollah is Hezbollah has been raining rockets in northern Israel, has driven 60,000, 70,000 people out of their homes. These are men, women, and children. These are civilians. And that that Israeli response is a response to that, those Hezbollah rocket attacks.

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): Do you believe that? In Gaza, this same Israel. How many people have they murdered? They have killed more than 41,000 people. What have they done to the Israelis for them to deserve to have their hospitals, their schools, men, women, children, old and young, bombarded? How many Israelis have even died that they are massacring this many people there?

[10:20:03]

Did the children kill people? Did the women murder people? The greatest existing terrorist in the world is the country of Israel. Look at the figures on how many people Israel is terrorizing every day with missiles, drones, and their people. And tell me how they are. In Iran itself, when I was being inaugurated as president, they came and struck Ismail Haniyeh that night.

What international law justifies this? And the world is seeing this and regretfully defending them. The powers are defending them. The powers that speak of human rights. It is shameful.

ZAKARIA: You have said that Iran reserves the right to respond and the time manner and place of its choosing to the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh. Are you saying that you will for sure respond in some way to that assassination?

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): If international organizations cannot make Israel sit down, and allow someone who has the means and power to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and no one stops them, then naturally we will give the appropriate response.

ZAKARIA: Mr. President, do you say that you wish to restart the nuclear talks with the United States in order to return, I presume, to some version of the nuclear deal. The United States has said that they do not see that as likely to happen soon. What is your strategy if the Americans are not willing? PEZESHKIAN (through translator): America, since the beginning, tore up

this accord. We wish to communicate to the world that we are not seeking nuclear weapons. America is lying that we are doing such a thing. America is pumping out incorrect information about us to the world. We accepted the JCPOA and were adhering to it. If we were seeking the nuclear bombs that they tell the world we seek we would not have accepted the JCPOA.

If the United States of America is seeking peace in the region, we seek peace. We have no eyes on any other people's territory. Iran has never invaded any other country. Look at the past two centuries in history. We are not seeking to invade any other country. If we produce weapons, if we produce missiles, it is to defend ourselves.

When Iraq's Saddam Hussein attacked us, and was raining down missiles, and chemical bombs on our cities, the Americans and the European countries were all defending them. We were defenseless, but we reached the conclusion that we must be able to defend ourselves.

Now, I understand that on this planet earth, in this vast galaxy in which we exist, we are meaningless. It really is not worth it for humans in this very brief journey to tear each other apart. Man is above this. If we understood this, we wouldn't be tearing each other apart. We would help one another. So we can enjoy this brief time that God and existence had permitted us to be on this planet earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: Coming up next on GPS, two years after the mass protests that was sparked by the death of the 22-year-old Mahsa Amini at the hands of the country's morality police, I'll ask Iranian President Pezeshkian about the state of women's rights in Iran.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:28:27]

ZAKARIA: It's been more than two years now since the death of Mahsa Amini in Iran. Amini was a 22-year-old woman who died after the country's morality police arrested her, allegedly for not wearing her hijab job correctly. Her death sparked months of protests, which the government responded to with violence killing more than 500 people.

When my guests, Masoud Pezeshkian, ran for president this year, one of his campaign platforms was a pledge to stop the harassment of women by the morality police. That put him at odds with the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who holds ultimate power in Iran, who has said that removing the head covering is forbidden.

More now with President Pezeshkian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: You said so that you want Iran to behave in a way that respects all the rights and behaves in a way that becomes a role model. You've also said that you'd want the, what we call the morality police to stop bothering people. So I want to understand because a lot of what they would bother people about in Iran is they would bother women who were not wearing a complete veil or chador.

Are you saying that women in Iran are permitted now to not cover their head completely?

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): Without respecting or disrespecting this job, you do know that any change takes time. The same way change would take a certain amount of time elsewhere. Behavior modification from both the side of the government or the ones operating outside of their norms, all of this naturally takes time.

We must allow them the time to behave properly in an acceptable manner. Those who are displaying inappropriate behavior in the government or those who are members of the society at large and are confronting a set of beliefs and culture, what is of utmost importance to us is respect for people's cultures. That is a sign of development to us.

Humans can do whatever they wish when they're by themselves. But when they're members of society, they must behave in such a way that their behaviors are accepted by the society at large. Otherwise, conflict will show in that society.

ZAKARIA: Would you say that if there were another such set of protests you would make sure that the authorities would not brutally crack down on unarmed women protesting?

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): Naturally, we have no right to confront the people with violence. We have problems and challenges but those are not justifiable excuses.

In order for us to take out our frustrations on our citizens, on our people, it is our responsibility and duty to serve them diligently and sincerely. And we will not fall short to this effort.

So, it doesn't matter. We must not even behave in such a way that would make people take to the streets. It is our actions and type of behavior that makes these events occur. So, the more we are able to better ourselves, the more we are going to positively impact the behavior of society at large, that's what we seek.

ZAKARIA: Mr. President, people describe you as a moderate. Do you think you are a moderate or a reformer? Would you use those words?

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): I have a principle. The principle that I firmly believe in is justice and fairness. I am not a normal civilian. I am an academic. So, I judge everything and accept everything based on scientific evidence, on social science-based evidence.

If we are to realize this fairness and justice, whether in our country, the region, or the world we need reforms. Meaning, we cannot keep behaving and talking and being in the same way while expecting changes in the society. There are certain rights being trampled upon in the land upon which we live. Justice is lacking in many places. So, if we can ultimately create this world that we seek, it will be a good world. And war and bloodshed will be ended. It is wanting too much and wanting everything that has unleashed humanity against itself.

ZAKARIA: Mr. President, again, thank you for appearing on our program.

PEZESHKIAN (through translator): My pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, I talked to Britain's former prime minister, Tony Blair, about what sort of leadership is needed in these very troubled times.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:38:21]

ZAKARIA: The race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump is exceptionally close and America could end up with a populist president for the second time in 10 years. In Europe, populism continues to surge from the Netherlands, to Germany, to Italy. It is a trend being watched very closely by Tony Blair, who governed the U.K. from 1997 to 2007 as the Labour Party's longest serving prime minister. He has a brand-new book out called "On Leadership."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: Tony Blair, welcome.

TONY BLAIR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.

ZAKARIA: I'm so glad that I'm getting a chance to talk to you, and this book is terrific. But it does pose this very interesting challenge. You came into power and Clinton came into power. When it felt like the winds of global change were moving in the direction of, you know, democratization and liberalization of markets and global -- even governance. I mean, you know, the U.S. and the U.K. were working together on so many issues where you could get the Russians and the Chinese to agree in the 90s.

It feels like all these trends are moving in a different direction, mainly the opposite direction. This huge backlash, populism. And so, in that circumstance, isn't it much harder to be a leader?

BLAIR: I think it is harder, but I think the principles are still the same. And actually, the reason for writing the book was, you know, the odd thing about politics is that you can come to this position of extraordinary power, where you're taking decisions that intimately affect people's lives and you've got billions and billions of dollars that you're in charge of as it were, and there's -- there's no kind of guide to it.

[10:40:04] You know, in any other walk of life, if you're appointed a CEO of a company or a coach of a football team, you know, they got a long pedigree, a lot of experience, a lot of things to draw on, but not for leaders. So, this is -- the book is really an attempt to say whatever the circumstances there are certain clear lessons of leadership and governance that you can learn from looking at what's happening around the world.

Now you're right. Today is a much, much tougher environment. But I think the lessons are still the same about how you lead, about having clarity of direction, about being prepared to do the things that are difficult, not necessarily popular, about assembling the right team around you. But those things that we were thinking were part of the natural order of things back as we approached the millennium and the early part of this century they're contested today, but that makes it all the more important in my view that you stand up for them.

ZAKARIA: So, you would -- you would stand up for them and push them? Because there are a lot of leaders, you know, who are pandering to what appears to be rising public sentiment. You know, they're tacking to the center or even to the right on some issues, cultural issues, immigration, you know, protectionism. You know, in a sense that I'm sure they look at you and say, yes, you don't have to win any elections anymore, Mr. Blair.

BLAIR: Yes, it is true. But I think the best way to win an election is to be absolutely clear where you stand and to set out a direction and a purpose and follow it.

So, I would distinguish also between an issue like immigration which is a huge issue all over western politics, where I don't think you can dismiss anxiety about immigration as just populism. And I will say about populists, they -- generally in my experience, they exploit a grievance, but they don't create it, right? The grievance is there. So, in my view unless you control immigration today, you're going have a big problem.

But when it comes to protectionism, for example, or anti-globalization sentiment, fine, you can go down that path if you want but you're going to find the cost of living goes up. You'll find it's much harder for businesses to operate. And one clear economic lesson of history is the more countries close in on themselves the less prosperous they become.

So, some of -- some of these things, I think, you have to say, OK, this is a new phenomenon. We have to deal with it. And that's different from the time that I was in office. But in other circumstances, you say, we've got to stand up for things.

So, when it comes to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, you got to stand up and be clear about where you stand with the -- with the Ukrainians.

ZAKARIA: The left in Europe, in particular, is doing very badly, right? If you look at the French left, the German social democrats, very bad shape. Even places like Sweden where the left was dominant for, you know, decades and decades is doing badly. Why do you think in an age of rising cultural anxiety -- why are -- why is the left doing badly and parts of the right doing well?

BLAIR: Yes, because first of all, on some of these issues that they're -- they're not creating a policy that gives people confidence. For example, on immigration it's not -- it's not wrong for people to worry about whether immigration is under control or not.

OK, you're going to get some people who are anti-immigrant. You're never going to persuade those. But others just worry there's no order in the system. And one thing I think about today is that people want some order. They look at the world and find it disordered. And they want -- you know, they want therefore rules, controls around immigration.

Now, if you have those controls, you can say, no, it's good for our country. You know, Britain has benefited hugely from immigration. American has benefited hugely from immigration. But people want to know that's a decision. And it's not simply an accident of someone wanting to come to a country. And if you don't get rules around immigration, you get prejudices. So that's one thing.

But the second thing which I think is a big point of discussion now, the progressive side of politics, it lacks an economic mission. Now, my view is that the single biggest thing that's going on in the world today is the technology revolution. That you literally -- if you're -- if you're backing government today, and you know my institute now works in over 40 different countries in the world, for all of those governments, the question is, how do you understand this revolution? How do you master it and how do you harness it?

And it could transform our health care systems. It could transform our education systems, transform the whole way government operates. But there are huge challenges with it as well, cyber security, disinformation.

But how we deal with that should -- is in my view the -- if you like the social democratic challenge for today's world. But a lot of politics on the center-left today, either then ignores those immigration questions or doesn't have an answer to them. Or has an economic message that's kind of loosely around the state doing more, but without really getting to grips with this massive change that's happening in the -- in the real world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[10:45:02]

ZAKARIA: When we come back, I asked Tony Blair for his take on the 2024 American presidential race and the leadership qualities of Kamala Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAKARIA: And we are back here on GPS with the former prime minister of Great Britain, Tony Blair, talking about his new book "On Leadership."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZAKARIA: Mr. Blair, you've written a fine book about leadership.

[10:50:00]

So, I'm going to I ask you, looking at Kamala Harris right now, how do you think she rates as -- what are the early signs of her leadership?

BLAIR: So, Fareed, the one thing that you also learn as a British prime minister and -- you know, I've been listening to the politics here in America these last few days, this is your decision. You, the Americans, you can decide that. And the job of the British prime minister, even the job of former British prime ministers, whoever you elect.

So, the moment I start -- you're getting -- is not my -- it will be completely disrespectful for me to start evaluating either Kamala Harris or indeed Donald Trump or anyone else in American politics.

ZAKARIA: But let me ask you a more general question which is --

BLAIR: You're trying to get to the same point in a different way, I think.

ZAKARIA: No, no, no. You had -- when you ran for office, you had a very specific set of political ideas. You set out very clearly, I'm moving the Labour Party to its center. We are embracing aspects of the market.

We are -- you know, you had all these policy proposals in a fair degree of detail. I think it's fair to say both candidates now appeal -- are appealing more to the kind of -- you know, a kind of emotional sense of where the voter is.

Do you think that, you know -- there are a lot of people who say, look, people make their decisions about voting from the gut, not from the head. Don't appeal to them with fancy policy ideas.

BLAIR: I think people in the end -- you know, they vote for a variety of reasons, obviously. But at the end, I think what's in the interests of myself and my family.

Look, I think, probably both candidates would say they have policies by the way whether you agree or disagree with them. But no, I think, in the end -- one thing as I say in the book is the toughest thing you learn in government is how hard policy is.

And this is why -- what's fascinating about politics is at one level it's a -- it's a crude business, right? You're shaking hands. You're kissing babies. You're making stump speeches. You're watching the opinion polls, the focus groups.

But when you got into government, you've got to switch to a modus operandi which is much more about how you run something. And now you become a CEO, not just a communicator. And that's where you -- you know, if you've tried to reform a health system or you've tried to, you know, create a better education system for your people, these are tough questions.

And I think, you know, whoever is in power today is why it's important to assemble a group of people in government who really understand the outside world. And one of the biggest risks that you have in politics today is where people -- because it's a rough business and because I think a lot of good people get deterred from going into it by how rough it is, if you're not careful -- you've got people who've spent their whole life in politics and really -- you know, I say this any young person who wants to go into politics, spend time outside of politics because I promise you the experience you get will make you a better politician when you finally enter.

ZAKARIA: When you look at Putin, you look at Xi, you know, those whole bunch of people who say, we're in an age of autocracy, that democratic leadership -- that this is the great crisis. Democratic leaders are not functioning well. Their populations are dissatisfied. You know, what is the answer to that?

BLAIR: The answer is for democracy to be effective. The challenge of democracy is efficacy. It is -- it is about actually the things I talked about in the book. It's how you move a country forward, is how you get things done.

And the reason why, you know, contrary to what I would have experienced 20 years ago, you go to countries now and they -- who aren't democratic and they say, democracy, I'm not sure, is because they think the politicians in the West are all about short-term, not long-term. They're all about easy answers, not deep answers.

And therefore, they think that we've created a political system that neither has in foreign policy staying power or in domestic policy real vision and understanding. But it's up to us to prove them wrong. Because -- by the way, you're saying about the autocrats, yes. Sure. But, you know, as a result of being an autocracy, no one challenge Putin.

I mean, he thought that he would literally go in and remove Zelenskyy and take the country over. And as I said to people, you don't need a great intelligence service. You just needed to go and talk to some young Ukrainians and realize that was never going to happen.

Likewise with President Xi -- OK. He was pursuing zero COVID. When the omicron variant comes along, it's clear that policy is not going to work, but no one is there to challenge him. So, China ends up tying itself to a policy that was clearly not going to work.

So, if the problem of democracy is efficacy, the problem of autocracy is it's not open to challenge. And when people aren't open to challenge, that's when bad things happen.

ZAKARIA: So, in a sense you're saying, you know, democracy's problem now is not -- the problem is not legitimacy, it's efficacy.

[10:55:04]

It's showing that you can actually get stuff done. BLAIR: Yes, exactly. And you will -- you will deal with a lot of this populism if you show you've got answers because the populists in the end ride the anger. They don't provide the answer. But you've got to provide the answer.

And what you can't do -- and I always say this to the leaders I talk with in Europe, just railing against the populist is not going to work. You've got to say, here is where we go. This is the answer.

Here's how we're going to control immigration, for example. Here's how we're going to deal with the new types of crime that are prevalent in our society. Here's how we're going to make sure that people who come into our country integrate with the values of our country.

If you're not having that conversation with people then you will find that reasonable people get drawn to the populist.

ZAKARIA: Tony Blair, always a pleasure.

BLAIR: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: Thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week.

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