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Glenn Beck

Encore Presentation: Interview With Al Sharpton

Aired December 27, 2006 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GLENN BECK, HOST (voice-over): Where the Reverend Al Sharpton goes, so too, goes the media.

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Black clergymen, black elected officials and black activists will be there.

BECK: Be it a rally for the underserved African-American, or joining forces with Cindy Sheehan against the war in Iraq...

CINDY SHEEHAN, ANTIWAR PROTESTOR: I love you.

BECK: ... the Reverend Al has a way of being in the center of some of the most heated and racially charged stories of our time.

SHARPTON: No justice!

BECK: In `99, he organized a massive demonstration after the death of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed man shot by police as he reached for his wallet.

He`s also given politics a shot. Through the years, he`s run for mayor, senator, and in 2003, president of the United States.

He`s been arrested during protests, even survived an assassination attempt. The Reverend Al Sharpton remains one of the most prominent black leaders in America today.

He joins me now for a no-holds-barred, politically incorrect full hour.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BECK: All right. Welcome to the program.

All right, one of the biggest complaints that we have on this show that I do with the regular show during the week, is that I don`t have enough time with a guest. And I wanted to take our Fridays and make them just a little bit different and spend an hour with somebody that I find fascinating. Sometimes I`ll agree with them; sometimes I won`t.

Tonight we have an interesting guy. You know him, Reverend Al Sharpton.

First of all, welcome, Reverend. How are you, sir?

SHARPTON: Thank you, Glenn. Good to be here.

BECK: And are we -- I had you on, I don`t know, a month ago, two months ago, maybe even three months ago? And I -- right in the middle of - - we were in the middle of talking about -- I don`t know what it was -- politics or something.

And I stopped in the middle, and I said, you know, we can continue this or I can ask you some honest questions. And I was so impressed and got so much mail from people who don`t generally agree with you. They said they saw you as not the spokesperson, but a human being for the first time. And they were fascinated, as was I, that we had a genuine conversation. And I don`t think that happens enough.

SHARPTON: I agree. I mean, you know, I think you having been in public for a while, we know you from radio and now television. People know me from activism and politics. We already know where we stand for them. Sometimes we just need to talk because we don`t have to sell images. Just let people know how we really feel.

BECK: It is -- it`s hard, though, to talk to you. It`s hard to -- and I`m being -- I want to make this really clear on the outset...

SHARPTON: Right.

BECK: ... that I`m not here to pin you to a wall. I`m not here to bash with you or anything. I want to really understand.

I`m the whitest white guy you`ve ever met. I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I swear to you, I remember the first time I saw an African- American. I must have been 6 and my father said to me, "Don`t stare." And I had never seen a black man in real life before. So I come from a different place where we didn`t have the strife between the races.

And so I see -- I see racism and I don`t -- I don`t even begin to even understand it. And we have created such a culture where -- I`ve been thinking about this all day.

Sitting down with you, I am going to have two conversations in my head all hour. And that is, I want to have a real conversation, but gee, what is that going to sound like? I don`t want to sound racist. Do you know what I mean?

SHARPTON: I do. But see, I think that all of us have two conversations. You know, W.E.B. Dubois, he was a black scholar, probably the black scholar of the 20th Century, said blacks have to live double lives. We have to live the life where that we work in or that we go to school in, and then we have to live our lives.

So you think you have two questions. Imagine people that have to live in a broader culture all day and in many ways take things and not say things and not do because they want to feed their families or they want to survive.

And then at home they are somebody else. In church they`re somebody else.

Imagine my mother and father, who grew up in the back of the bus, who took that because they wanted to feed us. But he wanted to be a man when he got home. So this duality has caused a problem for whites and blacks.

BECK: I`m not -- I`m not saying that it hasn`t. I understand. I think I understand the fear that African-Americans have lived under for a long time, because I think, and many whites feel this way now because they`re afraid to say anything. They`re afraid of somebody wheeling around saying, "Oh, yes, Mr. Racist?" And so you`re afraid to say anything.

But isn`t that the barrier that you`re trying to destroy? And yet we`re creating that barrier because we`re afraid to talk to each other.

SHARPTON: I think that it is something that we have to deal with, how we talk to each other without playing "Gotcha." But I think at the same time, we`ve got to deal with the reality that there are some people that needs to be got. And they may not be the people in the conversation.

BECK: Absolutely true. Absolutely true. We`re going to get into -- we had a controversy on this program earlier, having a real conversation about language that should just not be a part of language or words that shouldn`t be a part of our language. The "N" word was one of them. We were censored by our own network in an intellectual conversation.

And I`ll get into it in a second, because as I talked about it on the radio, I got an amazing call from somebody that expressed the situation they were put in by just being near a conversation where the "N" word wasn`t used, but the phrase "the `N` word" was. And it is -- it`s remarkable. We`ll get onto that in a second.

Do you believe -- do you believe that there are times when the race card should not be played?

SHARPTON: I think that the race card shouldn`t be played if it`s being used just as a race card, as something to advance something other than fairness and equality and justice.

The problem, though, is it takes real judgment to decide when that is. Because with some of us, the deck is racial. So whatever cards you pull, it`s going to be racial.

When you look at the fact, Glenn -- and again, you may not have had to deal with this in your reality -- that today in `06, not `66, `06, the life of blacks are still very much different than the life of whites in this country.

BECK: Oh, yes.

SHARPTON: We`re still doubly unemployed, still can`t get bank loans by 3 percent, still go to jail charged with the same crime, the same criminal background. So if you have a race deck, almost any card you pull may end up being a race card by someone`s perception.

BECK: OK. I`ll give you that. But you do believe that people are intentionally separating themselves in a way? For instance, why -- why not just American? Why is it African-American? I`m not a German-American; I`m an American.

SHARPTON: Because you`ve never been denied being an American. You have to remember, a lot of people say...

BECK: Wouldn`t that make -- wouldn`t that make it more important to say, "Dammit, I`m an American. I`m finally allowed to be called an American"?

SHARPTON: Well, You must remember, we are the only people in America that, by law in the Constitution at one point, we were deemed 3/5 of a man. And we were belittled and denied identity without race. So it was important for those that were disavowed to affirm who they are.

BECK: Right. Correct.

SHARPTON: So you didn`t need a James Brown sing racial pride to you. You didn`t need it, because that was destroyed for us.

BECK: I get it. But you weren`t denied -- you weren`t called 3/5 of America. You were called 3/5 of a person by a person.

SHARPTON: By the American Constitution.

BECK: Wait, wait, wait.

SHARPTON: It was the law.

BECK: I understand that, but there are so many whites that were standing up. Franklin Roosevelt -- not Franklin Roosevelt. Benjamin Franklin stood up in Congress. They called him a senile old man. He almost destroyed his reputation.

SHARPTON: And he was a hero for doing it. But think of the fact that the majority was calling him senile.

BECK: Wait, wait, wait.

SHARPTON: Look at the whites who died in the civil rights movement. But look at the majority of whites that looked the other way.

BECK: Yes.

SHARPTON: So to have to go up against that -- do you know what it is to grow up and you can`t call the cops when the robbers are coming after you?

BECK: No.

SHARPTON: When someone in the days of Reconstruction -- you talk about Ben Franklin days? If somebody raped your wife, a boss raped your wife, you call the cops. They arrest you for making the call?

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: It was against the law for black men to even defend their wives?

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: So in that culture you need a lot of self-affirmation to reelect.

BECK: Then maybe -- then maybe it`s this direction. Maybe it is -- why is there -- there`s the constant, it seems, separation, the constant barriers between us, and instead of tearing them down by saying, "Wait a minute. This group of people over here are standing for us, are pitching for us.

Instead, what I see is a white man as I see, you know, your -- you know, the Founding Fathers were racist. Well, there were a few great Founding Fathers that weren`t. And how come we`re not celebrating the great accomplishments? We`re only just concentrating on the flaws?

SHARPTON: You know, I think that there were some Founding Father who did make some great statements and great -- and stood up. There were people like William Lloyd Garrison who started the abolitionist movement.

And I think -- you know, I do a syndicated radio show, "Keeping it Real". I keep it real.

BECK: Yes.

SHARPTON: And there were a lot of times you talk about there were whites that even marched with Dr. King when blacks wouldn`t.

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: I remember, as you know, I grew up under the post-`60 era. I grew up under Jesse Jackson who mentored me. Jesse Jackson`s always said to me -- this is where the rainbow concept came. You`ve got to remember there were some whites sacrificing when there were blacks that weren`t in front.

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: That is true. But I think that all people need to have more of an understanding. Because a lot of people think we get up ever morning looking for a problem. A lot of times we get up in the middle of a problem.

BECK: And I think -- with that being said, I think there are also a lot of people that do do that. There are a lot of whites who stand up, and there are a lot of blacks that stand up and look for a problem.

We have to take a break. More with Reverend Al Sharpton in just a second. Stand by.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: You said the Republican Party was the party of Lincoln and Frederick Douglas. It is true that Mr. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, after which there was a commitment to give 40 acres and a mule. That`s where the argument to this reparations starts. We never got the 40 acres.

We went all the way to Herbert Hoover, and we never got the 40 acres. We didn`t get the mule. So we decided we`d ride this don donkey as far as it would take us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: Reverend Al Sharpton is our guest for the whole hour.

Reverend, I -- we had two experiences thus week, and they both revolve around the "N" word. And I can`t figure them out for the life of me. And maybe you can help me out.

First of all, having a serious discussion earlier this week with John C. McGinnis. He`s -- he`s an actor on the TV show "Scrubs". And he said that one word in the language really bothers him. And this is what happened, and I`m going to show it as it ran on air. And you`ll notice what`s bleeped and what wasn`t.

Go ahead, run it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN C. MCGINLEY, ACTOR: God forbid you call an African-American a (expletive deleted) or a Jewish person a kike or an Italian person a guinea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: So the "N" word was bleeped by this network. However, the just as offensive word "kike" was not. Any idea why that would happen?

SHARPTON: That`s interesting. Because in pop radio, the opposite happens. The "N" word is being used almost like it`s a term of endearment.

And I remember Michael Jackson had a record that they took an offensive, and they should have, a word out that was offensive to Jews.

What bothers me is when we have people now going to court charged with hate crimes that just happened in New York and in Colorado, where they had been a hate attack. Young man in Howard Beach section of New York last year. Called National Action Network, our organization. We defended him.

And the defense in court was, "Yes, we beat him with bats and used the `N` word. It`s term of endearment. It`s hip-hop." So now it`s like decriminalized.

BECK: But you know what? Hang on a second. Whose fault is that? I was -- the second experience I had was Jay-Z. I do my radio show out of Radio City. And we have satellite studios that people come in and they do radio shows all around the country.

Jay-Z was in with his -- with his posse. And there were like eight of them. And my guys were trying to work. It was some of the most foul language. Finally, one of my guys was on the phone with a theater in Salt Lake, because we`re putting on a Christmas show.

He had to cover the phone, and he turned around and said, "Guys, can you please stop using the language?"

They immediately got aggressive. Then it was -- it was, you know, sing the "N" word back and forth to each other. He was offended.

SHARPTON: Well, let me say this. And again, now Jay-Z I think has done a lot of good things. But those that use the "N" word, if they`re black, white, whatever, are wrong. And a lot of us have used it in private. It`s wrong. To pass it down to our children is wrong. We cannot, in any way, try and romanticize or sanitize a word that is absolutely racist.

BECK: Why is it?

SHARPTON: I think that there was some school of thought, which I think was wrong, that we can take a negative and make a positive and be defiant.

BECK: You know what? I`ve wondered if that was how it is. I said earlier today, I call myself an evil conservative because everyone else always says conservatives are trying to starve little children and everything else. No, we`re not. But if you`re going to call me an evil conservative, I`m going to wear it as a badge of honor.

However, if you called me an evil conservative, I wouldn`t come after you.

Watch this clip. This came from the radio show today. When I talked about, on the radio show. There was an ad that was on. We were going to have an honest conversation. I was going to ask you about the "N" word. So about an hour later somebody called in and said this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: I`ve got to say listening to your radio show can be kind of dangerous.

BECK: What do you mean?

CALLER: Well, this morning I was at a light, and you mentioned that you were going to be talking to Al Sharpton.

BECK: Yes.

CALLER: And you had a couple of questions for him.

BECK: Yes.

CALLER: Well, my window was down. And you mentioned that you were going to ask him about the "N" word.

BECK: Yes, I am.

CALLER: Well, you said that really loud and clear. And next to me there was a car. And in the car there was a black guy. Well, as soon as you said that, the guy`s head turned sharply. This car sped up to me, and the guy started yelling at me.

BECK: You`re kidding me?

CALLER: No.

BECK: What did he say?

CALLER: Well, he first called out at me. And I looked at him and shrugged and looked in the car and said, what? And he responded and said, "You know what I`m talking about, `MF`."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BECK: It is -- it was offensive to somebody who was black for me to say -- for a guy who`s sitting in a car listening to a radio show, where I said I`m going to have Al Sharpton. I`m going to ask him about the "N" word. How come blacks can use it, but whites can`t? What is -- what is that? And he was so offended he actually chased the guy.

SHARPTON: I think that none of us should use it. I think that we need to be very clear.

And again, many of us have used it. I have in private. And we`ve got to stop. I think we cannot have anywhere in society with any word that is self-denigrating or that is -- it is set up to be an offensive term based on race or sex in our language. We just can`t have it.

BECK: I saw a -- I saw an article. I think I first saw it maybe in "The Post" last week. It was -- and excuse the language, but it`s NiggaSpace.com.

SHARPTON: Right.

BECK: And it was -- are you familiar with this?

SHARPTON: I`ve heard about it.

BECK: OK. It`s set up for a MySpace. Not even a parody. The kid that set it up, 17, his name it Tyrone. He says he set it up as a space for African-Americans to be comfortable. Now I don`t know if this kid is really black or white, but does it even matter?

SHARPTON: You know, my point is this. You know, I speak to a lot of young people. I have a lot of young people in our organization. I speak to a lot of people on my radio show every day that are young.

And you know, I said, "Young people, the contribution to this generation -- we`ve got a lot of problems, some which I outline from health care to unemployment. We`ve already talked about, touched on." The contribution of this generation can`t be that we`re going to sanitize the "N" word. Is this what this generation -- we want to fight for the right to feel comfortable by being defiant about a negative word?

I mean, there`s a whole lot more issues with real gravity than to try to sanitize something that will never be anything other than an offensive word. I think that it is absolutely ridiculous for any term, racist term, whether it be used against Jews, Italians, Irish or blacks, even if it`s used against ourselves, to ourselves.

I think that we`re internalizing something that we should be using that energy to try to empower and liberate people, not try to -- try to play a cute, flip, psychotic game or psychological game where I`m going to be defiant with the term. Really, at the end of the day, what does that mean?

BECK: OK. Reverend Al Sharpton, more in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: Back with our special guest for the entire hour, Reverend Al Sharpton.

We started this last week, where we -- where we talked to somebody that has an awful lot to say for a whole hour. And this time we`re honored to have Reverend Al Sharpton.

SHARPTON: Well, somebody you have a lot to say to.

BECK: What does that mean?

Chris Rock. His mom in a Cracker Barrel. You just stood up with her. Tell me in a nutshell the story.

SHARPTON: She went into a Cracker Barrel. People that went in behind her, white, were served. She was not served. She felt she was discriminated against.

She called the South Carolina Human Affairs Department and five months later had not gotten anything. She called National Action Network, and I responded.

The reason we responded is Cracker Barrel, the company, just settled a year and a half ago, a Justice Department complaint -- a Justice Department under this administration, an administration I don`t clearly feel is aggressive on civil rights.

BECK: No.

SHARPTON: Even this Justice Department cited them with discrimination on service, segregating people when they come in.

BECK: Got it.

SHARPTON: Discrimination in terms of their waitresses. And so I said...

BECK: It is called Cracker Barrel.

SHARPTON: And they have a track record. But the problem with it is this, they get tax abatements. County where taxpayers help to subsidize their business. You cannot operate in a discriminatory way and remain in public.

BECK: OK. Now here is my point in bringing this up. I got this e- mail from somebody. It says, "Dear Glenn, my husband and I (a Caucasian couple) stopped at Cracker Barrel in Virginia. We waited 45 minutes. Our order was taken, never again seeing our waitress or our food. The waitress notably was African-American, as was most of the visible staff. We never considered the poor service to be race related. Should we have?"

SHARPTON: Well, again, if there was a track record. And even you started joking with the name. But if there had not been a track record here...

BECK: Yes.

SHARPTON: ... a Justice Department settlement, this same company cited, maybe one could say Mrs. Rock overreacted. Or here goes Al Sharpton again. That`s the easy way.

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: But then how you do explain the Bush administration`s Justice Department...

BECK: Because the Bush administration actually cares.

SHARPTON: Oh, and I suppose I don`t, and Mrs. Rock just wanted to do something because she had nothing else to do?

BECK: Well, you`re just -- wait a minute. Hang on. You`re assuming that George Bush doesn`t.

SHARPTON: No, I`m saying that they`ve been less than aggressive...

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: ... in civil rights matters. So it must have been pretty blatant...

BECK: OK.

SHARPTON: ... to get a rather docile civil rights division of the Justice Department for the last six years to go there.

BECK: How you do -- all right. If you don`t have the Justice Department there, how do you differentiate between racist and jerk?

SHARPTON: To be very honest? It`s hard. And I tell you what, we get hundreds of calls every day in National Action Network. And so does other civil rights organization organizations. People see the cases we come out with. They don`t see the cases that we say that one has no merit. That one is ridiculous. This one`s a conspiracy theorist.

BECK: I would love to see what you do.

SHARPTON: I invite you to come one day...

BECK: I will be there. I want to see them.

SHARPTON: One of the things that is not glorious is to live the life of civil rights activists. As you said, I`ve been stabbed. I get up in pain every morning.

I mean, you get up every morning and you read stuff in tabloids and say, "Oh, my God, I hope my kids are not reading this."

I mean, it`s not like you get a whole lot of applause for confronting the system.

BECK: Right.

SHARPTON: You`ve got to believe in it. At the end of the day some of us believe you`ve got to try to make a difference. And if it takes me to do it, I might be battered and bruised, but if I can score, I feel like that`s what my life`s calling is.

BECK: Back with Al Sharpton after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECK (voice-over): You`re watching my special in-depth interview with Reverend Al Sharpton. Al Sharpton has spent most of his life at the forefront of the civil rights movement...

SHARPTON: No justice, no justice!

BECK: ... and has stood up at the center of the most heated and racially charged events in modern history. The Reverend Al Sharpton, one of the most prominent black leaders in America, and he`s our guest today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I can tell you already, we`re going to need about another 45 minutes. We`re halfway through, and I`ve got -- I just have so much to talk to you about.

SHARPTON: And both of us are going to get beat up. People over on my side are going to get mad that I was next to you...

(LAUGHTER)

BECK: Oh, we`re going to -- Yes, yes.

SHARPTON: ... and people on your side that you were nice to me.

BECK: I know. OK, let me then score one for my team and ask a tough question. Do you -- no offense -- do you really want to solve the race problem? Because it keeps you in business. There are people that want to keep us divided.

SHARPTON: You know something? I do a talk show on the radio. I do a talk show on television. And I`ve been accused, even by you, of being a relatively good speaker. I could live a very, very comfortable life doing radio, television and speaking, build a big mega-church. I happen to honestly believe in what I`m doing.

I started preaching when I was a kid. I started -- my first sermon, I was 4 years old. I did it when I was 10. I tried a million times to tell myself, "OK, you`ve done enough. Do something else."

It`s in me. I believe in this. I believe that you`ve got to solve the race question if this country can ever be what it can be. And some of us have to sacrifice to do it.

Like I said, Reverend Jackson is my mentor. This guy could have been anything he wanted to be. People think that you...

BECK: Well, not president.

SHARPTON: Well...

BECK: Ooh.

SHARPTON: ... I think that he could have been a great president, but I think that he could have lived a far more lucrative life.

BECK: Yes, absolutely.

SHARPTON: People don`t look at the fact that the only reason you would do this is -- I mean, people far less gifted have made far more comfortable lives.

BECK: Yes.

SHARPTON: What makes people do that? You have to really believe it. I believe there are some conservatives -- one of the reasons I agreed to do this show -- and I know you and I don`t agree on the weather -- is I happen to believe that you believe this.

There are some people on your side that I think are acting. They`re shtick, as you call it, that`s what they do. You believe it.

BECK: Can I tell you something?

SHARPTON: And I respect people that believe in what they`re doing. I think something`s wrong with you, but you believe it.

BECK: I`ve got to tell you, that`s why we invited you back, because you are a genuine -- you know what? There is no problem questioning each other, having honest questions back and forth, but it`s honesty. And I believe you believe it.

SHARPTON: And I believe this: I`ve never done that in all my life. I`ve been in the civil rights movement, as we call it, and I believe you believe what you`re doing.

BECK: So then me ask you this. Why can`t we throw lifelines to each other and say -- because this drives me out of my mind, when I hear people talking about reparations. What the hell are you talking about reparations for, for slavery that happened 150 years ago? Wait a minute. Why don`t we band together and stop slavery in Africa today?

SHARPTON: Why don`t we do both? The fact of the matter is, we should deal with slavery in Africa today. I`ve been to Sudan. I`ve raised this issue over and over again and disappointed that, on this particular case, some of the people on my side have not dramatized the issue.

But at the same time, we`re not talking about this reparations from slavery. My mother -- my mother -- could not help me with my homework growing up because she couldn`t finish school because of segregation.

BECK: But wait a minute. Look at her son.

SHARPTON: We`re talking about repairing damages done in our lifetime.

BECK: Wait, wait, wait, let`s do this. Let`s do this. I`m going to do this. You do it with me.

SHARPTON: All right.

BECK: OK, right now. OK, now the other one. That`s a Rolex.

SHARPTON: Yes?

BECK: That`s an $18,000 presidential watch.

SHARPTON: And if I have paid for it -- and this happened to be a birthday gift.

BECK: You can`t -- wait a minute. You cannot tell me that you`re not an American dream. You`re an American success story.

SHARPTON: But, OK, let`s do it this way. Let`s do it this way. Whatever success I achieved, I achieved against odds...

BECK: Amen. Amen.

SHARPTON: ... that people my age, my background, of a different community didn`t have to face those odds. And I`m one of how many that did not make it in my same generation?

BECK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. How about -- let me see if I can find this guy`s name. He is just going to be doing a - - his name is Chris Gardner. He was on our show a couple of months ago.

SHARPTON: I know him very well.

BECK: You know him. What a great story. Here is a guy who was homeless, here was a guy who was completely indigent, lived in his car, I think...

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: ... and is a multimillionaire driving a Ferrari.

SHARPTON: But, Glenn, you know why he`s a story? Because he is one in many. I fight for the day...

BECK: He`s -- wait a minute. It doesn`t matter if he`s white or black.

SHARPTON: I fight for the day, Glenn -- but, Glenn, the reason he`s a story, the reason why you quote him, the reason they`re doing a movie on him, is because he`s a unique black story. I fight for the day where everybody can be a Chris Gardner or everybody can be an Al Sharpton. The fact that it is odd makes my point. Because you know the majority of us don`t end up succeeding like that.

BECK: You know what? You know what? I make more money now than I probably -- then my family made in generations. I was the first to go get a formal education in college. And you know how long I spent in college? One semester, before I couldn`t afford it anymore.

You can succeed if you just never, ever give up. And the problem is...

SHARPTON: Let me tell you.

BECK: ... wait a minute -- the problem is, I hear from the African- American leaders, if you will, that it`s always somebody or something in your way. Damn it, it`s not! Focus. Do it. Value education. Look at how Bill -- I know Bill Cosby is a friend of yours.

SHARPTON: Oh, I love Bill Cosby. But let me say...

BECK: Look at what he`s saying, pull yourself up.

SHARPTON: Let me say this. Let me say this. First of all, you and many like you may be the first in your families to go to college. And that`s...

BECK: I`m not comparing it to -- I`m...

SHARPTON: No, but that`s admirable. And I may be the first to go in my family.

BECK: Yes.

SHARPTON: But your family wasn`t barred by race...

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: I agree with you.

SHARPTON: ... their class, either their race...

BECK: I agree with you.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: I also say that we are not telling people to imagine road blocks that are not there, but we`re also not telling them to let them inhibit them. We say to people, even if it`s unfair, that`s no excuse to surrender and succumb.

I don`t preach victimization, but I don`t preach delusion, either. There are unfair qualities still left in this country.

BECK: I agree with you. You know what...

SHARPTON: You`ve got to deal with it.

BECK: I told you at the beginning of the show, I grew up in Seattle. I actually -- I grew 90 miles north of Seattle, so it`s this white, Holland tulip area. And you couldn`t get any more removed than my childhood.

With that being said, I went down to -- I think it was Memphis. And I was talking to a group of people, and they said -- we were talking about, "OK, is this going to start on time?" And they said, "Oh, you`re on colored standard time." I said, "Pardon me?"

It didn`t even occur to me that were saying "colored" like "colored." And I said, "What is that?" And they said, "You`re on colored standard. All the coloreds here are late." I could -- it was like -- all of a sudden, I`m in a Carroll O`Connor movie.

SHARPTON: But it wasn`t the movie.

BECK: And there is real racism. No, it wasn`t. There is real racism, compared to bogus racism, where you pull yourself up. Everybody has trials. And then there`s real racism. You can connect with people like me to conquer real racism.

SHARPTON: And I think that we need to connect and conquer real racism, but we need to have a reality check that we`re not talking about things 100 years ago. We`re talking about right now.

BECK: I agree with you.

SHARPTON: We`re talking about today, America is still uneven.

BECK: More with Al Sharpton and some of the e-mail that has come in and your answers...

SHARPTON: All right.

BECK: ... in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: We are back with Reverend Al Sharpton. And you know this is -- I mean, this is going to be a moment of shame for both of us, this whole experience with us walking out of the studio actually liking each other.

SHARPTON: We`re still on different sides, but we`re cordial.

BECK: Yes, yes. I talked to Condoleezza Rice today. And she`s an amazing woman, absolutely amazing. How is she possibly an Uncle Tom?

SHARPTON: I think that the policy she has represented is bad for the country, not only bad for blacks, bad for everybody. The war was a mistake.

BECK: Wait, wait, but that is not the same as Uncle Tom. That is -- that`s not selling out your -- I get so many calls from people who are African-Americans and conservative. And they say, "I am completely isolated in my family. Nobody in my family wants to talk to me. I`m isolated in my church and with all my friends because I hold a different view." We should agree on principles and disagree on policies.

SHARPTON: All right. First of all, an Uncle Tom is one that says and does something to try and find favor with others, no matter what their principles. Somebody that disagrees just disagrees. You don`t necessarily have to be an Uncle Tom to be a conservative.

There were black Republicans, like Jackie Robinson was a black Republican, Arthur Fletcher, who founded affirmative action. But then there are different, those that say what they think, frankly, conservative whites want to hear.

BECK: You really think Condoleezza Rice, one of the brightest women on the planet today, is...

SHARPTON: I think Condoleezza Rice is a brilliant woman. I think that she is very well-educated, very well-polished. I just think she has used it to represent policies I disagree with.

BECK: And the same...

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: ... I respect her. I think she`s something that has made something of herself. I just wish she had done it for policies that were honest and better for America.

BECK: Yes, but that`s not an Uncle Tom.

SHARPTON: You said Uncle Tom. I didn`t say she was an Uncle Tom.

BECK: Oh, but you know that she has been called Uncle Tom. And you know that Colin Powell has been. People should be building schools named after these two with what they have accomplished.

SHARPTON: OK, but, again, because they have accomplished certain things in terms of personal merit, that is admirable, but it would even be more admirable if they used it for sound policies.

BECK: In your opinion. In your opinion.

SHARPTON: All right, but, Glenn, how would it sound if I said that I attack a white conservative with the same credentials, but I won`t attack Condoleezza? That would be racist.

BECK: No, no, no. It is...

SHARPTON: I have to disagree with her, just like I would disagree with a white...

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: There`s not a problem with disagreeing with someone.

SHARPTON: And I do.

BECK: It is calling them a traitor to their -- and I`m not saying that you have, but others have, called Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell a traitor to their race.

SHARPTON: I think that Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell have made great strides. I think that they make many of us proud of their personal achievements. I disagree with their policies.

BECK: That`s fine.

SHARPTON: I think Clarence Thomas is a traitor to his race. He`s actually voted against the interests of our communities.

BECK: Maybe he...

SHARPTON: There`s a difference between Condoleezza and Colin and Clarence Thomas. But I think Condoleezza and Colin have been wrong.

BECK: I can`t even name a white guy that I think is a traitor to his race. I would never even frame it that way. And you know that there are people that are white that would stand with you and fight for things that I would disagree with. I still wouldn`t call them a traitor to the race.

SHARPTON: They probably wouldn`t do it as traitors to their race. I`m talking about when you`ve got a guy that would vote against affirmative action and affirmative action helped get him where he is, that`s a traitor.

BECK: That`s being a hypocrite, not a traitor to your race.

SHARPTON: Well, that`s also being a traitor.

BECK: Affirmative action, there are a lot of black people that don`t agree with...

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: If you go through EEOC and then you get there and start talking about...

BECK: That`s a hypocrite.

SHARPTON: Well...

BECK: OK, let`s...

SHARPTON: ... I`m glad you called Clarence Thomas a hypocrite, because if the conservatives hear you say that...

BECK: In your opinion.

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: No, no, no, I`m not one. He is. You vote against -- you use it and then vote against it? You are.

OK, lots of e-mail coming in. "Glenn, ask the Reverend Al, what if they held a Million Man White March on Washington, would that be racist?"

SHARPTON: Well, if they held -- I think they`ve had many marches on Washington that had mostly whites. And if it was for affirming whites -- what were the Promise Keepers? They were white men. Black men could come.

BECK: Didn`t have to be.

SHARPTON: No, but...

BECK: And it wasn`t -- it wasn`t...

SHARPTON: It wasn`t exclusive. If whites wanted to come, they could have came. This was to address black men`s self-responsibility. We just did a whole segment where you wanted to see that done. What, did you get upset, because they got a million of them to do it?

BECK: No, no, no, no, it was -- oh, you are good. No, what I said about Bill Cosby -- and I`ve said this over and over and over again -- Bill, when you`re done given speeches in the black neighborhoods, would you please come to the white neighborhoods? I don`t think that that is a black speech that he is giving. That is a human speech.

The African-American, the family is just falling apart faster than it is in the white, but the white community family is falling apart, and it will catch up.

SHARPTON: I think the Million Man March fulfilled a need and fulfills a need that we needed to deal with, in terms of self-responsibility. And I think the same happens when Promise Keepers and others have done that. And they`re mostly white.

BECK: "Reverend, if you are a reverend, how can you possibly support gay marriage? Isn`t it contrary to the Bible`s teachings?"

SHARPTON: I support people`s right to choose. Everywhere in the Bible, it gives you a choice of Heaven and Hell. I think something you`re going to do will put you in Hell, but I`m going to fight for your right to get there.

BECK: So you`re a libertarian?

SHARPTON: No.

BECK: Oh, your side`s not going to like that.

SHARPTON: No, I am one -- no, I am one that believes that people have the right to choose. I don`t want a theocracy, because if the wrong religion gets in charge, they may tell me what I can practice.

BECK: You got it. So the next goes right to this question: "How you do balance being a political activist and an evangelist?"

SHARPTON: Very simple. I fight on the moral issues that I believe in, in the political arena. I think poverty`s a moral issue. I think no health insurance for 50 million Americans is a moral issue. I think discrimination is a moral issue. I don`t see the conflict at all.

BECK: OK. I would be completely dishonest if I didn`t ask you a question that I think is, when it comes to you, is the number-one question that I hear. And that is: How can Al Sharpton -- how can I listen to anything he says if he doesn`t disavow Tawana Brawley?

SHARPTON: Why would I disavow something I believe? You know, I`ll give you an example, for people that don`t know. Twenty years ago, I represented a girl that said she was raped. A grand jury didn`t believe her. Her lawyers and I did.

A year after that, I stood up for young men, three young men accused of rape of a white female here in Central Park, New York. They went to jail for 13 years. Then they proved 13 years later they didn`t do the rape. One of them works for me today.

Suppose if I apologize for them guys. I believe you stand up for what you believe in.

BECK: So you are saying -- you are saying that...

SHARPTON: I believe something happened to her. I believe the grand jury was wrong, just like you may believe O.J. is guilty and that jury is wrong. Don`t I have the right...

BECK: Come on. Do you believe -- wait, wait...

SHARPTON: Do I have the right to disagree with a jury?

BECK: O.J....

SHARPTON: Do only you have the right to disagree with...

BECK: Wait, no, come on.

SHARPTON: Did a jury acquit O.J.?

BECK: You know...

SHARPTON: Did a jury acquit O.J.?

BECK: Did a jury acquit O.J.? Yes.

SHARPTON: And you disagree with it?

BECK: Oh...

SHARPTON: I disagree with the grand jury of Tawana Brawley.

BECK: Fair enough. You`re wrong, but fair enough.

SHARPTON: You`re wrong.

(LAUGHTER)

BECK: All right, after this -- like we haven`t seen the funny side of Al Sharpton yet -- the funny side of Al Sharpton, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Who are you supposed to be?

TRACY MORGAN, COMEDIAN: I`m you, fool, the old Al Sharpton. Don`t I look good?

SHARPTON: I never looked that bad.

MORGAN: Uh-uh, think again.

SHARPTON: OK, you got me. That`s the way I used to dress in the `70s.

MORGAN: What are you talking about? You wore this suit five years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I was hoping that you would come in -- we said dress down, and you`re still in pinstripes.

SHARPTON: You told me to dress down.

BECK: I was hoping that it would be the track suit.

(LAUGHTER)

SHARPTON: And then you pick on my little Rolex watch.

BECK: "My little Rolex watch."

SHARPTON: You kept yours in the dressing room. Go get it.

BECK: I mean, you do have a sense of humor. How much of a blessing has that been in your life? I really, truly believe you can make so much more ground if you have a spoonful -- to quote Mary Poppins -- a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.

SHARPTON: No, you know, I`ve learned young -- probably because I grew up preaching, so I grew up a public figure always in my community and abroad -- that none of it`s personal. If you can laugh through it and not take it personally, not only is it better for your communicating to others, it makes it what you understand. It`s really not all about you; it`s about what you`re trying to do. At the end of it, we`re all going to some cold, lonely grave, and you hope somebody remembers that you did something worthwhile, so don`t take it too seriously.

BECK: You`re a preacher. Don`t leave it at the grave, man.

SHARPTON: Well, your physical body is going to the grave. Your soul will go hopefully to heaven if you do right. I believe that.

BECK: I am so fascinated by this answer from you. Can there be a joke about race that`s not racist?

SHARPTON: Yes. There can be a joke about race that`s not racist.

BECK: Give me one.

SHARPTON: I think a joke that is racist is one that`s intended to denigrate somebody or demean somebody.

BECK: But aren`t all jokes...

SHARPTON: A joke about race -- I mean, I think some of the stuff that I`ve heard Chris Rock do or, in the older days, Richard Pryor or others do that talks about, that plays on stereotypes, that can be funny race-based without being racist.

BECK: OK. And a white guy can tell a joke about a black guy? And a black guy can tell a joke about a white guy?

SHARPTON: Oh, yes.

BECK: We only have 30 seconds.

SHARPTON: You just told a joke about cracker barrel. I don`t think that you...

BECK: That was white-on-white. No crime here. I`m clean.

SHARPTON: That`s true. It`s only crime if it`s black-on-black, right?

(LAUGHTER)

BECK: OK, real quick, what`s next for you?

SHARPTON: I am going to continue building National Action Network and I will continue my syndicated radio show. I`m going to see what happens in the elections. And we`ll see -- we want to straighten our tricks in `06 so we can get it straight in `08.

BECK: I hope to see you again, sir.

SHARPTON: Take care.

BECK: Pleasure.

SHARPTON: Thank you, Glenn.

BECK: All right.

END