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Glenn Beck

Should Jessica Lunsford Killer Get Death Penalty if Convicted?; Which Gaffe is Worse: Ann Coulter`s or Bill Maher`s?; Veterans Discuss Conditions at Walter Reed

Aired March 06, 2007 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

GLENN BECK, HOST: Coming up, Scooter Libby. Guilty.
Plus, the latest developments in the Jessica -- Jessica Lunsford case. This is a 9-year-old girl who was tragically kidnapped, raped and killed.

And who`s worse, Bill Maher or Ann Coulter? That and more, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight`s episode is brought to you by the new motion picture, Walter Reed`s Hospital of Horror, now in 3-D. Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I will tell you that Walter Reed hospital thing is despicable, and we`ll have more on that coming up in just a little while.

And every other talk show tonight probably leading with the verdict of the Scooter Libby trial today. Quite frankly, here`s really all you need to know. Politics, politics, politics. Blah, blah, blah. Scooter Libby, found guilty on four of the five counts of obstructing of -- obstructing justice and lying to the feds. Really, that`s it.

You know, oh, wait, there is one more thing. When will people in Washington ever learn it`s not the crime, it`s the cover-up?

This doesn`t affect anybody`s life. Well, Scooter Libby`s. But it doesn`t affect mine, doesn`t affect yours. If you`re a politician, it affects your life.

Now, legal expert Jeffrey Toobin will be here a little later to give it to me that I`m wrong, which is a good possibility, but we`re moving on.

Here`s a trial that really does affect you. Prosecutors rested today in the trial of John Couey. This is the guy who was charged with the kidnapping and the rape of the 9-year-old girl, Jessica Lunsford, that he killed and buried alive.

Here`s the point tonight. In the coming days, you are going to hear a lot of reasons why we should feel sympathy for a child molester. All of it will be a load of B.S. He raped and killed and buried her alive. A monster like this deserves a lifetime of punishment, not sympathy.

Here`s how I got there. John Couey has spent the bulk of the jury selection sitting at the defense table coloring in a dinosaur coloring book with a pack of crayons. Isn`t that sweet? Look, he`s mentally challenged. How could someone like that do something so terrible? There`s got to be a reason he did this, right? Wrong.

If the guy has a low enough I.Q, then we don`t execute the mentally retarded. But I don`t believe this guy is mentally retarded. He`s a sick and deranged man.

The journey to that place, grant it, is tragic. That is why all decent people will pray for him. But we never, ever forget what he`s done. It`s a heinous crime. That`s the thing that matters. Not necessarily how these people got there.

As you may know, I have -- I`m not a journalist, nor am I a liberal, surprisingly enough. I am a conservative, but I`m a conservative that is against the death penalty. I believe we don`t need to be dolling out the ultimate judgment on our fellow man. I`m going to let Jesus do that.

I`m trying to stay consistent on the, when it`s OK to kill people thing. If you threaten the lives of me or my family, and I`m armed, ah, you lose, quite frankly. But it`s really hard to stick to my anti-death penalty position with a dirt bag like John Couey. If anybody can make a case in favor of the death penalty, it`s this guy.

So here`s what I know tonight. Justice for a sick piece of scum like John Couey should be swift, severe, and never ending. That`s why I like being Christian so much, because the never-ending punishment thing will happen to him.

Couey may have had a bad childhood. But I did, too. I mean, not as bad as this guy, but there`s a lot of people that did that never buried anybody alive. You know, I might have wanted to bury my sisters from time to time for picking on me, but I knew it was wrong and I didn`t do it.

You put Couey away for at least forever.

Here`s what I don`t know. I don`t know if the people who are arguing against the concept of the death penalty are just trying to make you feel bad for John Couey. Those are two separate arguments. If you`re anti- death penalty, in all cases, that`s cool. Just, you know, make that case.

But if you start saying, well, you shouldn`t execute this guy because he was so sad and lonely before he raped and murdered Jessica, you`re not getting any sympathy from me. Make the case against the death penalty.

Now, joining me is Wendy Murphy. She`s a former prosecutor from the New England School of Law. And from Court TV, Ashley Banfield.

Ashley, let me start with you. You were the person that brought this up to me last week that he`s coloring in coloring books.

ASHLEY BANFIELD, COURT TV: He had coloring books and tracing pencils in his holding cell. So this isn`t an act. This is really the John Couey that doctors have already testified to as being borderline -- not even borderline, slightly retarded mentally retarded, psychotic and delusional.

BECK: Do you know his I.Q.?

BANFIELD: Very low. I think at one point, at one of his testing points, it was in the low 70s.

BECK: OK. I think 65 is actually retarded. But...

BANFIELD: They`re saying he`s on the high end of those who are mentally retarded. It means he can function in society but he`s clearly retarded.

BECK: OK. And then the -- well, he`s kind of proved that he can`t function in society.

BANFIELD: You got that right.

BECK: But he also had severe problems as a kid, right?

BANFIELD: He was horrifically abused by one of his mother`s boyfriends. At least one piece of testimony came in saying that one of these boyfriends put his head in the door jamb at the age of 3 because he wet the bed and then repeatedly slammed his head.

So whether any of his mental deficiencies come physically from the abuse he suffered, or just mentally. I don`t know that it matters either one. This man was terribly abused as a child.

BECK: OK. America is about on the edge of tears. So I want -- I want Wendy to bring America back.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, Glenn, it`s not funny, but I have to laugh to hear the characterization of this guy as suffering and mentally retarded and drawing with crayons, because you asked an important question, did he have the coloring book and crayons in his trailer where he kidnapped the child, brutally raped her and buried her alive? Answer, no. He just managed to get them when he was in his holding cell, which means this charade was starting early on. But a charade, nevertheless.

Look, an awful lot of people have low I.Q.`s. They don`t do what this guy did. And by the way, as dumb as he may be, he sure managed to cover the damn crime up for a while and lie to police when they were conducting the investigation.

I could go on about how smart he happened to be when he was brutalizing this child, then burying her alive.

But look, make no mistake about it. When the case against you is really strong and you have no defense, you can find a hired gun who will sell their soul and testify about anything in our courtrooms. That`s an embarrassing reality. That`s why he`s doing this nonsense in front of the jury.

And it`s not the first guy we`ve seen do this. Remember Michael Jackson? Showing up to court in his pajamas, doing the Thorazine shuffle like a mental patient with his hair all crooked? Tell me that wasn`t also designed to suggest falsely to the jury and to the court of public opinion that he has some mental problems.

You know what -- you know what this really means, Glenn? It`s all about something very important. We just can`t believe that human beings are evil and can do horrible things to children. And because we`re so uncomfortable believing that reality, we are altogether too happy to latch onto the only excuse we can tolerate, which is that they must be a little mentally ill. It`s not real, but it works.

BECK: Well, I have to tell you -- I tell you, Wendy, you`re not normal. You`re not -- you are mentally ill if you do this to a child, but that doesn`t mean...

MURPHY: You can be evil.

BECK: But that doesn`t mean that you don`t -- you don`t get punished for it.

This guy, Ashley, is a repeat offender. I mean, this is not the first time -- I mean, it`s the first time he killed a child, but it`s not the first time he molested a child. He has also been arrested for assault and burglary. He`s got a long criminal history here.

BANFIELD: He`s a monster. I mean, look, any way you slice it, he`s a monster.

And let me tell you, something happened today, Glenn, in court that I think a lot of Americans will probably be very happy about. We`ve been told that his confession to the police officers would not be admissible in court because he invoked his rights to counsel. And yet, the interrogation continued.

Well, fine. They said they had a lot of evidence against him and today that was meted out, because jail guards came in, took the stand and told the court everything Couey had told them. He recounted in detail what he`d done to her. He recounted in detail what he thought of her. He apologized and said he`d see her in heaven one day.

He even said for a 9-year-old, she sure knew a lot more about sex than she should have. It was absolutely despicable stuff. So it kind of ends up being an open and shut case.

And here`s where I differ from Wendy. You can invoke all the invective you want about this kind of person, but in the end, we all want to know that one question as to how something like this could happen. Why? Why? Why?

And in a case like Joe Smith who brutalized Carlie Brucia who wasn`t necessarily retarded but was just a bad man, it`s easy for us to hate him and it`s easy for us to say, "Fine, you`re a perfect death penalty case."

But in a case like this man, John Couey, if you go through all the evidence and you listen to all the testimony, as I have, and you also listen to his confession and the manner in which he speaks, it`s a little different. This is a very troubled soul.

And I don`t feel sorry for him, Wendy. Don`t get me wrong. I don`t feel sorry. But I at least have a little closure as to how something like this could happen. And I think we need to know these things.

MURPHY: But Ashley, Ashley, I am not suggesting we shouldn`t want to understand how and why he did it. But there`s a big difference between wanting to understand how and why he did it and producing any level of compassion in the name of justice that gives this guy a discount because of some mental problems he has.

BANFIELD: I don`t think anyone is suggesting compassion in the name of justice here. I`ve already guessed about a one-hour maximum for a guilty verdict, and I think the penalty case may be even shorter.

BECK: Wendy...

BANFIELD: What I`m suggesting -- what I am suggesting is that in this case we`re getting an answer as to why.

BECK: Wendy, actually, we`ve got to run. But thank you very much. A great discussion. And you know, the compassion part comes in all of us, forgiving but not forgetting. Justice should be served here.

Coming up, outrageous statements by Bill Maher and Ann Coulter have put them both on the hot seat. Who`s worse? My answer may tick you off.

Also, Scooter Libby found guilty of obstruction. I`ll tell you why he`s also guilty of stupidity. That`s tonight`s "Real Story".

And "The Apprentice" gets the ax. Carolyn Kepcher is fired by the Donald. She has a lot to say. She`ll join me for an interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: Jeff, by the way, is on our station in Dallas, KLAF. And Jeff, you have made several trips over to the Middle East. You`re in Iraq now. What are you seeing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baghdad is portrayed on the -- in media very differently than it is on the ground. I will tell you that on the ground, when you talk to citizens from Baghdad, what they tell you is our economy is growing, we`re getting back on our feet, we`re rebuilding our infrastructure. And by the way, we`ve got a significant security problem we have to solve.

Baghdad residents, to a person that I have talked to, have said this is not going to be a failed state and it`s not nearly, nearly as miserable as western media is reporting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: All right. Let`s take a break from the show and play a little game. I`m going to show you two clips of people saying things that have gotten them into a lot of trouble lately.

One statement -- remember I`m the conservative -- I find totally inappropriate. The other, I find defensible. I want you to take a look at these clips and guess which is which. It will be fun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANN COULTER, AUTHOR/COLUMNIST: I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards. But it turns out that you have to go into rehab if you use the word (expletive deleted). So...

BILL MAHER, TV HOST: I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn`t be dying needlessly tomorrow. I`m just saying that if he did die, other people -- more people would live. That`s a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: Here to play along is David Horowitz. He`s the editor of FrontPageMag.com and author of "Indoctrination".

David, which clip out of those two do you find unacceptable?

DAVID HOROWITZ, AUTHOR, "INDOCTRINATION": Well, I`m a big free expression person, so I find Bill Maher`s far more reprehensible, but I support the right of both of them.

BECK: How do you find that one -- for those of you playing the game at home, I find Bill Maher absolutely defensible. I can`t find the joke even in Ann Coulter. I mean, you`re doing, you know, comedy, I don`t even understand the joke.

HOROWITZ: Well, I think it was a fairly lame joke. But the idea was that...

BECK: What was she going for?

HOROWITZ: We live in a totalitarian culture which has been created by liberals so that if you use certain words, the ones that offend them, you have to go into rehab.

You know, like she was referring to the Michael Richards incident. Who goes to a comedy club and doesn`t expect to be offended?

BECK: NO, I get that. But what did that have to do with...

HOROWITZ: Well, it was a lame joke. She was going to refer to -- I can`t use that "F" word?

BECK: No, no, no.

HOROWITZ: There we go. She was going to refer to John Edwards by the "F" word...

BECK: Why?

HOROWITZ: Because she thinks he`s a wuss. That`s the idea. She thinks that that word does not describe gay people but describes people who are sissies. And obviously, you know, it`s a stereotype of homosexuals.

BECK: Sure, I get it. And look, I`m with you on the fact that I`m a free speech guy and if you can`t -- if you`re doing comedy, you`re doing entertainment or if you`re having a serious discussion, we can`t -- we can`t ban language.

We can, however, say you know, language -- this language shouldn`t be used. This language shouldn`t be used. But you`ve got to be able to, you know, not -- not put people in rehab whenever they use language...

HOROWITZ: Exactly. And of course, it`s a one-way street. If you`re black in our culture these days, you can say anything. You get away with absolutely anything. If you`re female and a leftist, you can get away with an awful lot.

BECK: OK. I have to tell you...

HOROWITZ: If you`re conservative, you don`t -- they nail you every time.

BECK: I get that. And here`s where I stand on Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter, a joke I don`t even understand. I mean, it was just so bad, me personally, offensive because it was tied to John Edwards.

And beyond that, if you`re a conservative, you should be mad at Ann Coulter, because she took all of the spotlight and put it on herself just to sell some books and the message of the conference didn`t get out on who`s the next president, according to these people, for the conservatives. Nobody hears...

HOROWITZ: Right, the big message of the conference was, because it`s a very conservative conference, was that Rudolph Giuliani is going to win the nomination...

BECK: Well, everybody is talking about Ann Coulter and let`s go buy some more books.

HOROWITZ: Well, I agree, but you know, all...

BECK: She did that intentionally.

HOROWITZ: ... that audience probably had several thousand college students who are harassed daily in their classes.

BECK: I get it. I get it.

Wait, wait. Let`s -- let`s make sure we`re consistent here as conservatives. This guy, Bill Maher, was not making a joke. He was making a political point.

Now I disagree with everything Bill Maher said except like that ten- minute period when he actually said that George Bush was right on Iraq, but he wasn`t calling for the president -- the vice president`s death.

He said the first time around, he was like look, if he wasn`t in office, less people would die. A point I disagree with. But if you are Bill Maher, that`s consistent with his point of view. What`s wrong with that?

HOROWITZ: You know, Glenn, if you remember he made a comment after 9/11 that the terrorists weren`t cowards, but people who bomb from 30,000 feet...

BECK: I get it. That was after 9/11.

HOROWITZ: I defended his right to say that, and I got tremendous flak, you know, from my fans for doing it. He paid me back by being particularly nasty to me on the show. But I would do it again.

BECK: David, here`s the thing. As conservatives, I think we need to be consistent. You know, as conservatives, let`s just be consistent. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech, and no matter which side says it, let`s not torch them because they`re presenting a political view that may be distasteful.

David, thanks a lot. We got to run.

Believe it or not, this week the most annoying sound bite category, the winner does not go to Ann Coulter or Bill Maher, because it was up against some pretty stiff competition. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And now, the fake accent of the week.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I come too far, from where I started from. Nobody told me that the road would be easy.

ANNOUNCER: And that was the fake accent of the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: Soldiers make the ultimate commitment. In return, the very least they deserve is our care for them when they return home from duty.

Sadly, it`s not always the case. Those who looked to the Army`s Walter Reed Medical Center got stuck in, I mean, it`s an understatement to say shoddy housing. They were forced to battle excessive red tape. Only the government knows how to do this. Just to get simple treatment.

It`s a situation the military brass and those in Congress, is -- they`re not beginning to wonder is Walter Reed the worst offender or is this just the first?

Brian McGough is an Iraq war veteran, also former Walter Reed patient and Kayla Williams is his wife. Also an Iraqi war veteran.

Let me start with this, both of you, thank you very much for your service. And Brian, what was the experience at Walter Reed that you went through?

BRIAN MCGOUGH, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: My experience with Walter Reed was, I got injured in Iraq in October 2003, got medevaced to Germany and then to Walter Reed. While I was an in patient at Walter Reed, it was great. They took very good care of me. They made sure I was all right. Nurses were always coming around, checking on me. Doctors always in the room making sure I was all right.

But as soon as I became an outpatient, I was on my own. There was an attitude of, we fixed you. Now it`s your responsibility to figure out who the doctors are, who you have to see. Sorry.

BECK: Kayla, what was the worst experience as a wife?

KAYLA WILLIAMS, ARMY WAR VETERAN: For me, what I thought was most horrifying was that when they released him from Walter Reed, they just sent him back to his unit at Ft. Campbell, and he was still in the very early stages of recovery. He had a traumatic brain injury, so there were a lot of things he just couldn`t manage on his own.

They sent him back to his regular unit, who couldn`t take care of him. So his unit told him to stay home and he just self-medicated with alcohol for 10 months while he just languished and had no treatment, no sort of recovery, no rehabilitation. And that was horrifying to watch.

BECK: They`re also -- they`re sending people to where they are being watched by other patients. True or not?

MCGOUGH: That is true. And if you`re a leader in a leadership position before you got hurt, when you get sent to the hospital, you`re still that same rank. So when you`re in the medical holding company, they figure hey, you`re here, you`re a leader, we can make you watch our soldiers.

BECK: Isn`t that -- let me play devil`s advocate. In a way, I`ve seen many reports where they say, you know, the patients that are there at Walter Reed say it is the same camaraderie. We are still a team. We`re still a unit, and they`re still helping each other. Can you make the case that that`s a good thing in any way?

MCGOUGH: It`s a good thing if that`s not your main responsibility. Your main responsibility while you`re at the hospital is to get better so you can go back to your own unit and be a leader. You`re not supposed to be a leader -- you`re supposed to be healing yourself so you can be a leader somewhere else.

BECK: Kayla, did you actually have to bring pictures in to prove that Brian served in Iraq?

WILLIAMS: No, we never had to do that, but it was extremely frustrating while he was at Ft. Campbell that nobody seemed interested in trying to help or able to help. And then once he was returned to Walter Reed, because it was obvious that he wasn`t getting the proper care, to be told, "Oh, we lost his paperwork. Oh, sorry. We lost his paperwork. Can you fill that form out again? Can you fill that form out again?" Over and over.

BECK: I don`t know about anybody else, but it makes me want to enjoy the wonders that is government health care and universal health care. They`ve made a lot of changes. They`re talking about it now in Congress. Do you think this be fixed?

MCGOUGH: Only -- it`s only going to be fixed if they don`t do the one or two-person thing. They have to look at all the leadership.

BECK: OK. Brian, Kayla, thank you very much.

"The Real Story" is up next. And you don`t want to miss it tonight. Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: Welcome to "The Real Story."

The verdict is finally in on that Scooter Libby case. I know, I`ve been on the edge of my seat for months. The big question isn`t whether or not he`s going to jail; it`s if anyone even cares. CNN legal expert Jeffrey Toobin will be here in a couple of minutes to make the case that, you know, maybe we should.

But first, something I definitely care about: illegal immigration. Ted Kennedy reportedly met today on Capitol Hill with Cardinal Mahoney -- he`s the archbishop of Los Angeles -- to talk about immigration reform. The cardinal said the reform is necessary to, quote, "keep families together and give children the opportunity to live happy lives and grow to achieve their dreams without fear."

Well, Cardinal, thank you very much for the guilt trip. I appreciate the implication that those of us who don`t support Ted Kennedy`s reforms want families to be ripped apart and children to live in fear. Thanks, Cardinal, I appreciate it.

The real story is that Cardinal Mahoney, just like everybody else in this country, is simply looking to court Latinos to help their organization grow. In this case, it just so happens that his organization is the Catholic Church.

Mark Krikorian, he is with the Center for Immigration Studies. Mark, is this a recruiting trip, really?

MARK KRIKORIAN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: I mean, that`s what it ends up being. I`m not quite cynical to think that Cardinal Mahoney`s only thinking about filling the pews. I think he really thinks this is a good idea. But the result is the same thing. It`s a way of importing more people, most of whom end up being Catholic. There`s no question about that.

BECK: I mean, how do people not see -- you want to talk about slavery? We are enslaving people. We are bringing them in, because it`s cheap labor. Now, we may not be whipping them, but we are definitely chaining them, because we are chaining them to a life where they cannot get education, they`re not going to be able to really fully live the American dream. How do people not see that?

KRIKORIAN: Well, I think some people, like Ted Kennedy and Cardinal Mahoney, and, frankly, John McCain and others, think, well, if we only amnesty all the illegals, all their problems go away, when, in fact, if they`re uneducated, their 19th-century workers in a 21st-century society, even getting amnesty isn`t going to improve things, because they`re not fit for the economy that they`re in now.

BECK: I was talking to a friend of mine who just moved to Arizona. He moved from Texas, and he thought he would find the same kind of situation in Arizona. And I called him just the other day when I saw that it was Kennedy-McCain on this bill. And I said, "What is he thinking? How is this going over in Arizona?"

He said different world in Arizona. He said the illegal immigration people have really got Arizona by the throat right now, and it is totally different than Texas. Do you find that to be true?

KRIKORIAN: Well, I mean, it`s clear that in Arizona the sentiment for tighter borders and tighter control is a lot stronger. Just in November, Arizona voters passed several initiatives, ballot initiatives, that were really very tough on illegal immigration. So, yes, it`s definitely not the kind of state that you would think, given how supportive of amnesty John McCain is.

BECK: Yes. This is really the same thing that happened with Ronald Reagan in the `80s, isn`t it, putting the cart before the horse? Those in Congress, he said, look, we`ve got to nail these companies, we`ve got to give them a million-dollar fine if they are caught hiring illegal aliens, and Congress said, "Sure, sure, sure. But let`s do the amnesty thing first." He gave it to them. We never got the million-dollar fine.

KRIKORIAN: And there was an excuse for it in the `80s. We just started it, but the Russian saying is, "Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice, shame on me." We shouldn`t try the same failed policy again.

BECK: We are going to do a story, I believe it`s tomorrow, on kind of a follow-up on what`s been happening with Bank of America. They`re not changing their ways, but this story actually started before 9/11. Can you give me a little bit of this?

KRIKORIAN: Well, sure. After 9/11 what happened was that Mexico saw it wasn`t going to get its amnesty right away, so what they did is they decided to make an end run around Congress and try to have the local and state governments OK this illegal alien I.D. card that they started issuing. And the Treasury Department told banks it was OK to do it.

So this Bank of America credit-cards-for-illegals thing has actually been brewing five or more years, and it`s the logical result of what our government and the Mexican government have been doing for a number of years.

BECK: OK, we`ll give you that story in "The Real Story" here in the next couple of days. Mark, thanks a lot.

KRIKORIAN: Thank you.

BECK: So now the Scooter Libby verdict has come in today, couldn`t be less excited, really. He was convicted on four counts and acquitted on one. But even though this has been a big story for the media, really didn`t have the drama of the O.J. verdict, at least for me.

In fact, I`m going to be honest. I believe the real story is, I`m not alone saying that. No, I`m not the only one saying that nobody really cares. I may be the only guy in the media that is, but nobody really cares.

I mean, maybe the left-wing bloggers care just a bit, because they feel, "We finally got somebody who`s connected to the vice president." But, really, on both sides of the aisle, do you know any Democrat or any Republican that sat around the dinner table talking about it with their family every night? I didn`t. Get a life, if you did.

In fact, I`ll bet you nine out of 10 people don`t even know who Scooter Libby is, and I bet you even more that, if his name wasn`t Scooter, that would be 10 out of 10.

CNN legal expert Jeffrey Toobin joins us now -- Jeffrey?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That`s Scooter Toobin.

BECK: That`s why anybody knows -- you say, you know, do you know Scooter Libby? What do you think? They`re like, "Scooter Libby, Scooter Libby," they`ve heard the name, but they only remember it because it`s scooter.

TOOBIN: It`s a good name.

BECK: Yes, sure, it is. I actually know how he got that name. I`m more interested in that than the actual case.

TOOBIN: I bet you are.

BECK: Come on. Really, you`re not?

TOOBIN: No, I mean, it`s a really significant case, Glenn. I mean, here we have the top aide to the vice president of the United States, one of the architects of the Iraq war, and now he`s a convicted felon. That is not important or interesting to you?

BECK: No, not really. And, you know, and here`s why. Here`s why. I don`t think any of these guys are clean. I don`t think -- I don`t care if it`s a Republican or Democrat, I don`t think they`re clean at all. And they just never learn the lesson. It`s not the crime; it`s the cover-up.

TOOBIN: Well, I think you`re right about that, that that seems to be the pattern in Washington scandals. But the idea that everybody in Washington is equal to a convicted felon, that if you looked at anyone, you could find something like this, I think that`s preposterous, Glenn. I`m not that cynical. I`ve covered Washington. I don`t think that they`re a bunch of felons running around there.

BECK: Look at you. I can remember when I was naive like you.

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: That`s why they call me Scooter. It`s a cute name.

BECK: Jeffrey, I don`t believe that everybody is akin to, you know, a convicted felon in Washington. But it`s starting -- you know where I lost it, and I think most Americans did, is this whole story about outing somebody that was in the "Who`s Who in America." It was a -- it started as a political story.

Where it got important, I guess, for the legal system and for politicians to learn a lesson, don`t screw with us, we`ll put you in jail, where it got interesting for that reason is on the obstruction.

TOOBIN: Well, and I think you`re right about that. I mean, one of the real peculiarities here is that, you know, the Democrats claimed that this was a conspiracy to out a critic of the Bush administration by supporters of the Iraq war.

Well, it turns out that the person who really did out her first was Richard Armitage, who was actually an opponent of the Gulf War -- of the Iraq war, sorry about that. And if Scooter Libby had simply gone into the grand jury and told the truth, this whole thing would have been long over.

But, instead, he goes in there, and invents this total fairy tale, imaginary conversation with Tim Russert, which quite obviously never happens, and thus gets convicted of a crime. I don`t think you can blame the legal system or even politicians for Libby`s crazy decision just to start making stuff up in the grand jury.

BECK: No, I agree with you on that. I`m talking about the interest level of the American people on this. You know what? You know, the adultery thing with Clinton, whatever, whatever, I get him, you know what - - to me, perjury was important, and it`s the same thing here.

That`s not the part of the story that`s interesting for everybody, but that is the important part. It really -- those in the beltway need to finally learn -- you want an interesting story, you give me Sandy Berger, why the Bush administration is covering for him, why the Democrats won`t say anything about this. Sandy Berger, I mean, that`s the story.

TOOBIN: You`re talking about when he removed those documents from the 9/11 Commission and he apparently stuffed them in his socks and everything this?

BECK: Yes, and takes them out and hides them in a construction site.

TOOBIN: It`s deeply bizarre. He got away with just pleading guilty to a misdemeanor. And I think his lawyer, Lanny Breuer, is a very good lawyer. He got away with quite bizarre behavior.

BECK: Oh, absolutely.

TOOBIN: And I don`t understand that one, either.

BECK: And there is intrigue on both sides. This is both sides of the aisle. This is the Republicans and the Democrats.

TOOBIN: I`m not sure about that.

BECK: Oh, well.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I mean, on the day on which one of the architects of the Iraq war is convicted of a felony, and somehow you`re talking about Sandy Berger?

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: I don`t know why anybody watches this show, Jeffrey, I really don`t. Real quick, do you think that Bush will give him a pardon?

TOOBIN: Wow, that is really interesting, hard question. I think that Libby will be able to drag out his appeals process so that he will not be in prison by November `08, meaning that lame-duck period, when all the juicy pardons come, whether it`s the first President Bush in the Iran- Contra affair or Bill Clinton with Marc Rich, I think he`s got a pretty good shot at it, frankly.

BECK: Jeffrey, thanks. That`s "The Real Story" tonight. If you`d like to read more about this or if you`ve found a "Real Story" of your own, please tell us about it. Visit glennbeck.com and click on "The Real Story" button. Back in a flash.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: Hello, Luke, welcome to the program.

CALLER: You know, there`s nothing better to watch you on DVR first thing in the morning.

BECK: Oh, yes, there`s a lot better than that.

(CROSSTALK)

CALLER: ... and I watch you on TiVo. So what am I going to do? I really did like before that, though, how you completely mutilated the woman`s name.

BECK: Raquel Saraswati?

CALLER: That was great. It was almost like all the times you do on the radio. It was perfect.

BECK: Thanks a lot, Luke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: You jerk. It was the spring of 2004. "The Passion of the Christ" was number one at the box office. John Kerry was wind surfing in those disturbingly tight water shorts. I still can`t get that out of my head. And America was captivated by the first season of Donald Trump`s reality show, "The Apprentice."

Carolyn Kepcher made quite a name for herself as a no-nonsense businesswoman who was also the Donald`s right hand. I hate saying the Donald. She has since left the Trump organization after 11 years, and now she`s judging Microsoft`s Ultimate Challenge Competition, looking for the best new small business venture. Oh, and in her spare time, she`s also launching her own Web site and raising her two kids.

Carolyn, welcome to the program.

CAROLYN KEPCHER, CEO, CAROLYN AND CO.: Thank you very much. How are you?

BECK: So let`s start with the Microsoft thing and small business. Let`s talk about that. My dad was a small businessman. I`m a small businessman. I believe anyone in America can make it. Do you believe that`s true?

KEPCHER: I do believe that. That really is true. I think it takes a lot of passion, it takes a lot of hard work, and a lot of faith in yourself in order to go forward. But, yes, I definitely believe it`s true.

BECK: You know, I hear from so many people, because, you know, I do the radio show every day. And, you know, I just believe that if you believe you can do it, and so many people will call me up and say, "No, you can`t. You can`t. You can`t make it."

KEPCHER: Well, there`s two things. One, you have to be very passionate about what you`re doing and believe it in, and that`s kind of hard. At the same time, you know, trying to take that idea and sell it to people and try to sell yourself and raise that capital to do it, that`s kind of hard, as well.

BECK: So the Microsoft Challenge is looking for new small businesspeople?

KEPCHER: It is the best new idea in America, which is kind of cool.

BECK: And what is it?

KEPCHER: Well, we don`t know what the new idea is...

BECK: You`re going to have four of them, right? You have four of them?

KEPCHER: We have four finalists, that`s right.

BECK: And one of them is a wallpaper thing, where you can make your own wallpaper?

KEPCHER: A wallpaper thing, yes. Actually, a woman came up with a fantastic idea to create and design personalized wallpaper. And it`s kind of new. I think it will kind of...

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: My son does that for free. He`s 2 and he...

KEPCHER: And then he applies.

BECK: He has applied, and it`s great. And if you...

(CROSSTALK)

KEPCHER: Did he apply to the contest?

BECK: No, no, but he`s applied things to the wall. It`s been great. Which one do you think -- what have you been intrigued by?

KEPCHER: Well, I have to tell you, out of 5,000 applications that have been received, you know, we`re down to the final four. So that goes to show a lot.

And I think all of them showed a good amount of creativity, originality, and then they have to go into the financial backing. You have to go into the -- is it public interest? Are people really interested in this product? And I think what we brought down to the four finalists, I think they all hold those four criteria.

BECK: I was surprised today.

KEPCHER: Why?

BECK: Well, someone told me that Donald Trump is still on television and didn`t have any idea that that show was still going. I really didn`t. I honestly watched I think the first season and maybe part of the second season. You were my favorite.

KEPCHER: Thank you.

BECK: Loved you on it.

KEPCHER: Thank you.

BECK: Donald Trump I liked when I first started watching, you know. I mean, he`s just -- you know, and maybe part of it is moving to New York where everything is Donald Trump. But by the end of the first season, end of the second, I`m like, I don`t know if I like this guy, because he seems -- I mean, is he a balanced guy? I don`t mean this unstable. I mean, is he a balanced guy? Does he have a life other than building buildings and putting his name on it?

KEPCHER: Well, no, he does have a life. Obviously, he has his family. He has his passion, which I know was golf, because that`s where I was associated with him. He is a man of many things, and "The Apprentice" was one of the things in his day-to-day activities, I suppose. But he is somewhat normal, but, you know, he is larger than life. He enjoys his "Apprentice" days. He enjoys everything that he does.

BECK: You are -- you are kind.

KEPCHER: Thank you.

BECK: You are very kind. You also are launching a Web site on people leading balanced lives, women trying to lead a balanced life, is that right?

KEPCHER: Mostly women. It is CarolynandCo.com, which actually Carolyn Company. And I have created a Web site, along with many other women, who are there to lend a hand to the women who are really serious about their careers and looking to move forward. And I think that is a huge reason why I hooked up with Microsoft, because I love the idea that they want to take a young entrepreneur, take their idea, and help them move forward. It`s very difficult. You know that.

BECK: I got to tell you, you know, I don`t know if you know who Gary Crittenden is. He`s now with Citibank, American Express. He said to me that there`s no such thing as a balanced life. He said it`s just integrated.

KEPCHER: There`s no such thing as a perfect, balanced life. But I think what you have to do is you have to take where you are now, kind of where you want to be, and the goal is to try to take that life balance, where you are, and turn it into just where you want it to be. Your balance is going to be different from my balance, obviously. And it`s difficult to do, especially when you have a career that you`re passionate about, you have a family, and you have other priorities in your life. It`s not easy.

BECK: OK, Carolyn, thank you very much. We have the clip of the day now.

All right. Here`s the president at the White House playing host to the Miami Heat. I`m guessing that`s a basketball team. There`s Bush bouncing a ball. You`ve got to see this in slow-mo replay. It`s great. Watch this. Finally a guy who makes me look manly. Clip of the day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECK: All right, you`ve heard about the dirt bag and the dirt bag`s friends who were making a 2- and 5-year-old little boy smoke pot on video. Brilliant. Shockingly enough, they were caught when police raided their home in connection with a burglary investigation. Who would have guessed this wasn`t their first crime?

Well, perhaps even more bizarre than the video was the awful apology today by dirt bag number one, the uncle of the two little boys, Demetris McCoy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEMETRIS MCCOY, GAVE NEPHEW POT: (INAUDIBLE) man, it`s something that people do all the time, give their kids weed. You know, people get it (INAUDIBLE) some people give their kids alcohol (INAUDIBLE) I didn`t do nothing like that. At least I ain`t like some people give their kids, letting them smoke ice, methamphetamine. That`s going to kill them right there. Weed ain`t going to kill them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: Oh, well, there you go. At least we know he wasn`t going to kill them. You know, it`s that sort of quality babysitting that`s so hard to find these days. But he has more to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEMETRIS MCCOY: Them kids is going to smoke sooner or later, you know? So it`s going to eventually happen, whether I was the dude or what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: Hmm, OK. They were eventually going to do it anyway, so why not at 5 or 2, you know? They`re probably going to drive sometime in their life, as well, so can we get Alamo on the phone to see if we can get that kid a rent a car? He`d like a Kia, I bet.

We`ll see you tomorrow on the radio, you sick, twisted freak, then back here tomorrow night.

END