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Glenn Beck

Republican Presidential Candidates Take Shots at Each Other During Debate; The Moore-Thompson Feud

Aired May 16, 2007 - 19:00   ET


GLENN BECK, HOST: Tonight, the Republican candidates finally took off the gloves.

RON PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Osama bin Laden has said, "I am glad you`re over on our sand."

RUDY GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don`t think I`ve ever heard that before. And I`ve heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11.

BECK: We have the debate highlights. Plus, I`ll tell you which candidate the evangelicals are playing will win the nomination.

And the feud heats up between heavyweights Michael Moore and Fred Thompson.

FRED THOMPSON, ACTOR: You`re no institution, Michael. I do something, you ought to think about it (ph).

BECK: All this and more tonight.


BECK: Believe it or not, politics was worth watching last night. The highlight of last night`s Republican presidential primary debate was clearly the exchange between America`s Mayor, Rudy Giuliani, and Congressman Ron Paul.

Paul actually suggested that our foreign policy was responsible for the terrorist attacks on 9/11. I can`t believe I actually have to say this to the Republicans, but here`s the point tonight.

Stop blaming America for Islamic terror. And here`s how I got there.

If you think I`m exaggerating, I want you to watch this clip from last night`s debate.


PAUL: I`m suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it. And they are delighted that we`re over there, because Osama bin Laden has said, "I am glad you`re over on our sand, because we can target you so much easier."

GIULIANI: That`s an extraordinary statement of someone who lived through the attack of September 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don`t think I`ve ever heard that before, and I`ve heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11.


BECK: I`ve got to tell you, my blood was shooting out of my eyes.

As someone who has worked hard to understand the Middle East over the last seven years, I can tell you, that`s not even a kindergartner`s understanding of what causes terror.

Look, did we make mistakes in the Middle East? Have we? Absolutely. Have we backed dictators? Uh-huh. Have we been seen as two-faced and duplicitous over in the Middle East? Absolutely again. But does all of that cause terrorism? No. What causes terrorism is when brutal ideologues hijack a religion for their own political goals. In a way, honestly, it`s no different than it is here.

To understand the Middle East, let me just break it down for you in about 30 seconds. If the Democrats didn`t have the Republicans and vice versa, if they couldn`t blame the other party, they`d have to come up with actual solutions to our problems.

But over in the Middle East, most countries only have one guy. The leader seems to need somebody to blame, because he`s a dictator, some reason to explain why their people are starving to death. They don`t have the Democrats or the Republicans. So the best way to keep people in line is to, one, use God and, two, find an enemy.

Remember, we`re talking about Dark Ages mentality here. And who makes a juicier religious enemy to them than us?

We don`t cause the madness, but we do help them make the case that we`re evil. I mean, come on, if you were over there and you just saw all the stuff that is spilling out of movie theaters around the world that came from us, what would you think? Look at what`s on TV every night.

And as Ron Paul should have said last night, we are in bed with terrible, awful dictators in the Middle East. Now, does that make us responsible for 9/11? Absolutely not. But we do make it easier for the terrorists to make us their enemy.

Still, I am shocked and saddened that some of our leaders don`t have a better idea of what`s really going on.

So here`s what I know tonight, I know that Ron Paul ain`t going to win. It`s too bad, actually, because some of his libertarian ideas are actually kind of good. Abolishing the IRS, who`s with me? The Department of Education. Bye-bye. Basically, get rid of most of the yahoos in Washington and pare the government down to a manageable size. Good idea.

But this is why libertarians always lose. They need to realize that 9/11 changed everything. If we don`t kill terrorists faster than they kill us, it is going to mean the end of our civilization.

So here`s what I don`t know. Does Ron Paul know that he doomed his chances last night? No, let me rephrase that. Did Ron Paul actually think he had a chance of winning until last night?

I invited him to come on the program today, and he accepted until scheduling conflicts made him back out at the last minute. But before I get to the candidates who are here, Jonathan Martin, the senior writer for the Politico, is with us. He was at last night`s debate.

Jonathan, who was the winner last night?

JONATHAN MILLER, SENIOR WRITER, POLITICO.COM: Well, look, I think certainly, Mayor Giuliani`s comment that you were just talking about, Glenn, regarding 9/11, catapulted him back onto much more safer terrain.

When Mayor Giuliani is talking about issues like national security and terrorism and especially 9/11, you know, he is somebody who is a very, very tough candidate.

When the conversation is about those thorny cultural issues like abortion, which has been sort of the topic of debate the past ten days, he`s not on as good a ground. So for him, it was good last night to get the conversation back onto national security.

BECK: Jonathan, how come I don`t hear -- it makes me feel like I`m just the dumbest guy in America. How come I`m the only one that`s saying, don`t you guys see it? Don`t you -- Rudy Giuliani, the only thing he really has going for them, his real appeal, is when he looks at people and says, "Back off. We`re going to crush these guys."

MILLER: Right.

BECK: When he does that, that`s when he connects with people. That says to me a ton about the psyche of the American people. We`re not losers. We want to win. We just need a leader to lead us to a win.

MILLER: No, absolutely. And he projects the kind of, you know, powerful optimism and, really, you know, tough guy machismo that appeals to a lot of Americans and especially a lot of Republicans.

BECK: Yes. Did you see any of the other candidates backstage? How was Romney last night?

MILLER: You know, I thought Romney didn`t have as good a night last night as he did in California, about ten days ago. But he still cuts a very impressive figure.

BECK: He seemed...

MILLER: Go ahead.

BECK: He seemed a little rattled or something. He just didn`t seem on his game last night.

MILLER: Well, he got five really tough questions, you know, that came his way. They were really adversarial sort of questions about his past conversions.

BECK: Yes. And then McCain? How did he do?

MILLER: I thought McCain actually did well last night. I thought, you know, McCain has had two sort of pretty good, but not great performances.

BECK: yes.

MILLER: But look, here`s the important thing to remember. When you`re one of those top guys, it`s better to have a good performance and not have a gaffe, because these guys have everything to lose and not a lot to gain in these first few debates.

BECK: Yes. I will tell you, first of all, I thought the FOX News Channel did a fantastic job. I mean, it was like they put actual journalists there to ask the questions. I could -- it was almost unwatchable on MSNBC. Last night I thought it was -- it was watchable and you got a lot, even out of the other people that, you know, are not on the first tier.

Did you feel at all that McCain -- I don`t know. He`s better in conversation. When you watch him, he just -- he seems tired. Not old, but tired.

MILLER: Right.

BECK: Is it me?

MILLER: Well -- well, I think his folks were pretty happy, because he was able to sort of get his message out, you know, which is, "I`m somebody who is ready to lead. I don`t need on-the-job training." And he was able to talk about issues of national security and government spending, which is really where he wants to keep the conversation.

BECK: All right. Thanks, Jonathan.

Now let`s go to Congressman Ron Paul from Texas, who -- oh, sorry, forgot. He canceled on us on -- at the last minute.

So, let`s go now to the man who was in the middle of the fireworks last night, Congressman Tom Tancredo.

Congressman, thank you for keeping your word and being with us today.


BECK: It was good last night. How frustrated were you, because I know you. You believe in the border. You are a man who says what you mean and mean what you say on the border. When you see these guys...

TANCREDO: I hope that`s the case with everything I say, but certainly it is, you`re right, on the issue.

BECK: I see these guys on the border, and they are flipping and flopping. And you think to yourself, you`re kidding me, right? You don`t actually mean this. How frustrating is it?

TANCREDO: Oh, man. When John McCain said, "I have never voted for an amnesty," I had -- it`s a good thing I had a podium in front of me so I wouldn`t collapse. Because honestly, it was just absolutely incredible.

It would be like me coming on that stage or on your show and saying, "You know, I`ve never really been against illegal aliens coming into this country. What gave you that idea, Glenn? What a strange thing to say."

BECK: You know, I will tell you, Congressman, I was frustrated as a viewer last night, because I`m really to a point where I`d like to see somebody with big vision.

I`d like to see somebody say, "Let`s get rid of the IRS. Let`s -- let`s build that border. In the first year I`m president, I`m going to have that border secure, and I`m going to build that fence."

I`m looking for somebody with big vision, and it`s a little sparse.

TANCREDO: Yes, absolutely. People always ask me, what`s the first thing you do on your first day? And I say, "Well, after I, of course, pardon Ramos and Compean, who I pray are not still in prison, I would send the Corps of Engineers down to the border and start building it." That is exactly what you need to do.

And you know, the bill that Mr. McCain actually introduced a year and a half ago or so had a provision in it, as I mentioned last night, that said if we had -- if we build a fence, we have to do it in consultation with Mexico. They`d have to agree with it.

BECK: You know, on Friday, we have Johnny Sutton on with us. We have a whole hour on immigration that you don`t want to miss.

Let me go to Ron Paul. How did you feel about -- oh, gosh darn it, I forgot again. Didn`t show up.

Congressman, how did you feel when Ron Paul blamed us for 9/11?

TANCREDO: Ron has really -- he`s been a good friend of mine for -- I say has been. I hope he still is. I`m not sure.

BECK: Does he believe this?

TANCREDO: I think so. I mean, Ron is truly a -- I guess you`d say an isolationist. He is a libertarian of the first order and is someone who is saying, look, we have absolutely no business anywhere else in the world.

And I wish he was right. Wouldn`t it be wonderful if we actually lived in a world where we didn`t have to worry about that, where we didn`t have to actually defend ourselves?

BECK: When we had -- when we had the oceans protecting us, we could. But the oceans don`t protect us anymore. We can`t just unplug from the world.

TANCREDO: Plus, there is this assumption, I think on the part of a lot of people, and certainly Ron, I think, is there, that if we had not done anything, if we had not been in the Middle East or especially if we hadn`t been friends with Israel, that all of a sudden we`d be living happily ever after in the United States.

But I believe there is, in fact, a radical Islamic element that wants to kill us...

BECK: Yes.

TANCREDO: ... that wants to establish a caliphate and impose Sharia law. And they don`t care whether or not we`re over there or if we exist.

BECK: They`ll kill us where we stand. Congressman, thank you so much, I appreciate.

Of course, Congressman Ron Paul, thanks. Oh, not so much I guess.

Coming up, more on last night`s debate as we turn our focus to religion. Christian conservatives have a huge political influence, but which candidate will they support?

Plus, did America`s toughest sheriff make Paris Hilton an offer she couldn`t refuse? I`ll tell you how she may be trading a jail cell in California for a tent in the desert.

And Fred Thompson fires back at Michael Moore. Thompson answers Moore`s ludicrous debate challenge. You do not want to miss it.


BECK: All right. Coming up in just a bit, he`s called the toughest sheriff in America. He`s got his sights now set on a new inmate. Sheriff Joe Arpaio has offered to let Paris Hilton serve her jail term in one of his city`s tent prisons. The details are coming up. You don`t want to miss this interview. He`s one of my favorite guests.

Also, last night`s presidential debate was held under the shadow of Jerry Falwell`s death. Christian conservatives became a political force under the guidance of Reverend Falwell. Did they see anybody last night that they can rally behind?

Each candidate seems, at least to me, has issues that might rankle the religious right. Richard Land is the author of "The Divided States of America". He is a key player in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Richard, did you see it last night? Did you watch it?


BECK: Let`s just go through all of the candidates, one by one. Mitt Romney, what did you think of him last night?

LAND: Well, Mitt, you know, he looks like he was sent from central casting to play a presidential candidate, and he`s very telegenic, and he`s -- he`s a very attractive candidate in many ways. I think he`s going to have to deal with his recent changes on some issues that are important to evangelicals and social conservatives.

BECK: You know, I have -- I`ve spoken to him personally about his flip-flop on abortion, and, you know, I`m a guy who looks at pivot points. What -- if you changed your mind, you tell me exactly when you made it. If you don`t know, it`s a flip-flop.

On that particular case, I believe he did really, truly change his mind. Does the abortion thing bother you with him?

LAND: It doesn`t with me. I`ve heard him give the explanation, as well. And it sounds sincere to me. And I know, literally, thousands of people like him, who used to be pro-choice who are now pro-life for a variety of reasons. So -- but I think he can make that case. But he`s going to have to make it.

BECK: Oh, yes. Now, Giuliani, I mean, he can`t get around abortion. I don`t -- I`m so confused. And in some ways, I respect him for just holding the line. This is what I believe. This is who I am, like it or not. This is it. But how does he get around the partial birth abortion thing?

LAND: Well, you know, I think the answer he gave this week was better than the answer he gave in the first debate, which made everybody mad, pro- choice and pro-life. And about one-third of potential voters in Republican primaries are pro-choice. And he`s got a monopoly on that group.

BECK: Yes.

LAND: The problem is, how does he get from 34 percent to 50 percent? That`s going to be tough.

BECK: Yes. I will tell you that, me personally -- and, you know, I`d love to hear your thoughts on this. I`m a one-issue kind of guy right now. I am -- it is the war on terror. We`ve got people that want a worldwide caliphate, and most people don`t even understand what a global Islamic government really is.

And so, I`m just looking for a guy who is really tough and really understands the war on terror. Do you think enough people are out there that understand what`s coming?

I mean, we don`t have to worry about, you know, the millions of babies that are unborn that are going to be killed in the next ten years, because a lot of us will be dead from the global caliphate if we don`t act on that. Is that naive?

LAND: No, I don`t think it`s naive. But I`m not willing to settle for somebody who`s going to give me one out of two issues. I`m still hopeful that someone is going to emerge who`s going to be tough on terror and understand the terror threat and the radical Islamic jihadist threat and also is going to stand up for the personhood of unborn babies.

BECK: Let`s see. Who might emerge? There`s Newt Gingrich, and there`s Fred Thompson. Both of them, you know and I know, they`re both going to get in. We`re too -- are you hoping for one of those guys?

LAND: Well, I don`t think they`re both going to get in. I think that maybe one will get in. And if one gets in, the other one won`t. And my -- if I were a betting man -- which, of course, as a Baptist, I`m not...

BECK: But do you dance?

LAND: It`s going to be Fred Thompson.

BECK: Fred Thompson. Yes. I think he`s going to get in. What do you think of -- what do you think of him?

LAND: I like Fred. He`s been -- he was my senator for eight years. He`s a stand-up guy. He`s a tantalizing combination of charisma, gravitas and electability.

BECK: Yes. We have the message, the video message that he made for Michael Moore yesterday in response. We have that coming up in just a little while. Boy, I`ll tell you, I saw that and I thought to myself, I want a guy -- and I think -- you know, I think America wants a guy who`s tough, who stands for something, who`s honest and also can deliver a message.

Can be a guy who can stand up for conservative values and sell it. And Fred Thompson really can do that.

LAND: He absolutely can.

BECK: So, why is it -- are you waiting for Fred Thompson or why is it you`re playing coy on who you are backing?

LAND: Well, I don`t endorse candidates. As the head of the Ethics and Religious Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, I don`t endorse candidates.

I vote my values, my beliefs, and my convictions. And I encourage all people of faith to do likewise. But I leave it to them to connect the dots, and I just don`t endorse candidates.

BECK: Yes. Good for you. Do you -- do you believe that if push comes to shove, you have somebody like Giuliani, who`s pro-abortion or Hillary Clinton, do you say go vote for a third party, or do you say you should probably go for the -- you know, somebody like Giuliani?

LAND: Well, what I say is that it`s a matter of individual conscience, and I can`t speak for anyone but myself. I -- if I were faced with the prospect of voting for Giuliani or Hillary Clinton, I personally would not vote in that race. I could not -- I could not bring myself to vote for a pro-choice candidate, period.

But I`m not going to condemn others who make the decision to vote for the lesser of two evils. I believe it truly is a matter of individual conscience.

BECK: Yes. Good for you. Richard, thanks a lot.

Coming up, Paris Hilton`s days as a free woman may be numbered, but where will she be spending that hard time? It`s still up for debate. I`ll explain here in a second.

Also, everybody has an opinion on how to solve the problem in Iraq. Not everyone is the former mayor of New York. I`m just saying. You know what I mean? Stick around.


BECK: Paris Hilton is scheduled to begin her jail sentence on June 5, and while I`m sure it`s not going to exactly be a walk in the park, if one sheriff has his way, she`ll be spending her days on an Arizona chain gang.

Joe Arpaio, he is the head of Arizona`s tent city jail and the Maricopa County Sheriff`s Department. He has offered to house the hotel heiress during her 45-day jail sentence at his beautiful tent city.

Joining me now is the man they call "the toughest sheriff in America." He`s one of my favorites. Joe Arpaio.

How are you doing, Sheriff?


BECK: Good. Any chance this could actually happen?

ARPAIO: Well, I talked to the sheriff himself two days ago and ahead of his jail system. I know they had a jail overcrowding problem. It`s not the sheriff`s fault. But I`m just saying, if you don`t have the room, bring her to me. I`ll be glad to keep her.

BECK: OK. Now, you are a guy that makes the inmates wear pink jump suits and also pink underwear. She might actually like that. She`s somebody that could make those things fashionable.

ARPAIO: Well, it`s really pink underwear and stripes. I`m sure she won`t like the stripes, because it will make her look fat. They are striped, black and white stripes.

BECK: Yes. They are horizontal, aren`t they?


BECK: And every woman knows -- so she actually would work on a chain gang if she were with you? You`re the only one that, in America, has a chain gang left, right?

ARPAIO: Well, we`re the only ones in the history of the world who put females on a chain gang. I`m an equal opportunity guy. So, we don`t treat women different because they`re in a jail system.

BECK: I`ve got to tell you, Sheriff -- and I mean this with all due respect, man. I love you. I`d vote for you. How did you get elected? Nobody says these things or does these things.

ARPAIO: Well, I -- I spent 30 years -- 30 years with the U.S. drug enforcement. What do you mean how -- you mean how do I keep getting reelected?

BECK: Yes. How do you keep your job in today`s America? How do you keep your job?

ARPAIO: Well, just use common sense. Not afraid to talk to you, or the media. Tell it like it is, and I`m elected. Who`s going to fire me?

BECK: OK. So now you have her working, possibly, on a chain gang. But is it true that she would also be burying dead bodies?

ARPAIO: My chain gang, men and women and juveniles, every Thursday they go to the county cemetery and bury the indigent, yes.

BECK: I have to tell you, man, I`m just -- I wouldn`t want to commit a crime in your neighborhood. I just don`t want to commit it.

So, how do you think she is going to fare in, you know, a regular jail? I think she`s going to use this thing as -- I mean, it will make her more famous.

ARPAIO: Well, I`m sure she`ll be treated properly in L.A. County. But I run a different jail system. Go ahead.

BECK: Let me ask you an honest question. I mean, do you really, seriously think that this was real? Or is this just a publicity thing for you?

ARPAIO: Well, no. I`m spreading the word that if you get caught, whether you`re rich or whatever, you should do the time. I`m trying to send a word to Maricopa County plus the country. I`m hoping that she does what she was sentenced and does the time. Just because she`s rich and famous, it doesn`t matter.

You know, I`ve talked to journalists from all over the world. I keep saying, this is not the Hilton hotel.

BECK: I don`t think you have to -- when you stay at the Hilton, generally you don`t have to bury the dead.

Sheriff, thanks a lot. Good talking to you. We`ll talk to you again.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

BECK: Up next, a new poll shows that some Democrats actually believe President Bush knew about 9/11 and did nothing about it. I`m going to have the incredible "Real Story" for you next.


BECK: A quick programming note. Tomorrow, a special hour-long conversation with Larry King. The guy is a legend. He`s talked to some amazing people during his 50-year career in broadcasting. I don`t want you to miss tomorrow`s program. Larry King, for the full hour.

First, time for "The Real Story." Now that the presidential candidates are debating, we`re hearing a lot about 9/11 and the attacks again. What did people know? And when did they know it? You`d think that rational people everywhere would have already figured that these were horrific attacks and that, you know, they were also a complete and utter surprise to everyone, including the president of the United States.

But "The Real Story" is, if you`re a Democrat, that`s not necessarily the case. A new poll shows that one-in-three Democrats actually believe that Bush had previous knowledge that the attacks were coming and that the majority of Democrats either believe that Bush knew about the attacks in advance or they can`t quite make up their minds whether or not he did or didn`t know.

Now, could this poll be wrong? I hope, but not completely, even if the numbers are inflated and the reality isn`t one in three, but maybe one in five, or one in 10. It`s terrifying to think that anybody actually believes that the president of the United States, no matter who he is, knew about the World Trade Center attacks in advance.

This isn`t about being a Republican or a Democrat. This is about being a rational, sensible American. How do you believe that about any president?

Jonah Goldberg, he wrote about this very subject for the "Los Angeles Times." Jonah, I got to tell you, I read your op-ed piece, and I love it. Thank you for saying it. I mean, on one hand, they say that Bush is a moron, and yet he pulled this off. He pulled off blowing up the levees, but yet he couldn`t plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

JONAH GOLDBERG, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Right, that is the sort of -- the general sort of see-saw, schizophrenic problem with complaints about Bush, and Karl Rove, and all these guys for the last five years. On the one hand, they`re the Keystone Kops, the gang who couldn`t shoot straight, who are just too stupid to be spell-checkers in an M&M factory, and on the other hand they are these James Bond villain, evil geniuses who get to pull off one brilliant thing after another, and yet they`re still in the low 30s in poll ratings. You can`t have both.

BECK: It`s absolutely insane that a rational person actually has taken the time to think this one through. You know, when you look at George Bush and Dick Cheney, especially, what do they say? They say that Dick Cheney is evil and all of these terrorist threats and everything else -- I mean, they even did it with the Fort Dix guys, that these terrorists that they picked up, they`re yahoos, they`re nobody. They`re just trying to deflect attention off of themselves. If that is true, why wouldn`t we have had more attacks? Dick Cheney, you know, he`d be running the world right now.

GOLDBERG: Right. I mean, the thing is, every time we raise the terror alert from yellow to orange or whatever, or magenta, or whatever the code is, we always hear, "Oh, they`re just doing this to scare people, to get people to support Bush and his policies."

Well, if Bush is willing to blow up the World Trade Center -- and, keep in mind, we didn`t -- you know, he wouldn`t have known that it was only 3,000 people who were going to die. He would have known that 20,000, or 30,000, or 40,000 people would have died, or could have died, and one of those planes was heading for either the White House or Capitol Hill, so you`re talking about taking out the entire legislative branch.

BECK: All right, let me play devil`s advocate here. When Clinton was in office, there were conservatives that said, "Oh, they killed Vince Foster."


BECK: So what`s the difference? Is there a difference?

GOLDBERG: I am not making the case that necessarily Republicans or conservatives are pure in all this kind of stuff. The paranoid style in American politics runs through left and right. We used to have people on the right who thought Eisenhower was a Communist. You know, Eisenhower wasn`t a Communist, went the famous phrase. He was a golfer.

And the same thing holds true on the right. We had it in the 1990s with angry white men, and Rush Limbaugh was supposed to be guilty for inciting the Oklahoma City bombing. The difference is, is that, back then, the media took it deadly seriously. "Oh, my God, these terrible, dangerous people at the fringe of the Republican Party, they are a threat to the republic. They`re a threat to democracy. There`s a whiff of fascism coming off of them."

When we had the exact same data showing that large chunks of the Democratic Party, probably not really 35 percent, but big chunks are as deranged and paranoid as any evidence said about the right, oh, this is dismissed. This gets swept under the rug. Until I wrote this column, you didn`t hear about this much on talk radio.

BECK: No, you didn`t. Jonah, thank you very much.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

BECK: Until now, there have been two prevailing notions on how to handle the future in Iraq. Some Republicans say fight it until the war is won and fight it like you`re really fighting to win. Democrats say cut and run as soon as possible.

The "Real Story" is, there is now a third way to handle the conflict, and it`s being suggested by former New York City Mayor Ed Koch, who is a Democrat. According to his op-ed piece today in the "New York Sun," Mayor Koch concedes that the war in Iraq is lost, but rather than abandoning the Iraqi people completely, he says we should say to the Arab and NATO allies: You know what? Put some boots on the ground. Lend some help that is so desperately needed. And if you don`t, well, then we`re out in 30 days.

Mayor Koch is here with us.

Hi, Mayor. How are you, sir?

FMR. MAYOR ED KOCH, NEW YORK: Thanks for inviting me.

BECK: You bet. I`ve got to tell you, I appreciate you, because you can look at something rationally and you can look at both sides. Party lines usually don`t make a difference to you.

KOCH: Well, I`m liberal with sanity.

BECK: Yes, that`s very rare. Anyway, I don`t believe that the war is lost. What is lost is a spine from anybody on either side. Win the war!

KOCH: Let me tell you what the problem is. The Bush administration - - and I supported President Bush and campaigned for him when he ran for re- election -- they`re sounded by incompetence. And I believe that they failed in their job when they allowed the Iraqi government to veto the entry of Turkish troops, which had been arranged by Colin Powell. This was told to me by an American general.

Now, if the Bush people said to the Iraqi government, "Unless you do the following, unless you allow other Arab countries to send in troops, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Turkey, and unless you provide the Sunni with a fair share of the oil receipts and allow them in government, we are getting out." That would be OK.

BECK: All right, but hang on just a second. Mayor, I know you. I`ve read enough of what you believe. You and I are not that far apart...

KOCH: I`m sure.

BECK: ... on what`s happening over in the Middle East. We can`t lose this. We can`t just -- it will be a blood bath, not only over there, but here.

KOCH: Oh, I believe that. I believe...

BECK: Is this a bluff that you`re suggesting?

KOCH: No, no. You cannot bluff here.

BECK: Thank you for that.

KOCH: You must get out if you say you`re going to get out. But I believe that we are not able to win by ourselves. Even the English will be leaving after Tony Blair packs it in, in June.

BECK: Something that you said in this op-ed piece today that I found very interesting, because, as a conservative, I think you`re exactly right. What are the Democrats thinking? They are in the dustbin for all time if we pull out, because so many...

KOCH: They will be blamed.

BECK: ... people will die.

KOCH: They will be blamed when, as John McCain quite correctly says, the terrorists will follow us here to the homeland. And that, obviously, is far worse than our fighting the terrorists in their homeland.

And I believe it was right to go into Iraq, based on the information then available, and it`s right to stay there now, if we could do the job. But we can`t do it alone. So, if our allies, NATO, regional Arab allies, don`t come in, I believe that we have to get out, but we should give them that ultimatum.

BECK: OK. Have you seen that there seems to be a possible change in the tide in Europe recently, especially with France, but they`re even taking on illegal immigration. There seems to be a change over in Europe. Do you think it`s too late for them?

KOCH: Yes, I don`t believe that the NATO allies will come and help us, because they didn`t come and help Great Britain when Great Britain had a resolution recently before the Security Council asking NATO allies to join in, demanding that Iran return the sailors. They refused to sign on.

BECK: Yes. Is there -- your prediction on what happens with Iran. I mean, they`re getting close to -- I mean, we`re getting close to crossing the line of the point of no return.

KOCH: I believe, as John McCain does, that while war is terrible, it`s even more terrible to allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb.

BECK: Prediction, what are we going to do?

KOCH: That we will somehow or other take them out.

BECK: Ed Koch, thanks. That`s "The Real Story" tonight.

Coming up, Michael Moore versus Fred Thompson. I`m going to have the details on this heavyweight feud, again an unfortunate twist of words there. Political power hitter versus a super-sized nut job, it is coming up next. Don`t miss it.



BECK: Corporate responsibility? You know what? Shut up about CBS! Shut up about corporate responsibility and shock jocks! Good God in Heaven. Our whole house is burning down, and you`re worried about shock jocks? How about this corporate responsibility? You don`t hire illegal aliens.


BECK: Michael Moore has opened his big, fat mouth -- see, now, I don`t mean to say that. That`s just unkind. I`m sorry. I didn`t mean big, fat mouth. I meant large, rotund mouth. He spouted off to actor and possible presidential candidate Fred Thompson, calling him a hypocrite for criticizing Moore`s anti-American pro-Cuban health care documentary.

Moore says that Thompson has received numerous contributions from the health care industry and isn`t bashful about enjoying a Cuban cigar. Moore challenged Thompson to a debate, and Thompson responded with a video, which aired on Breitbart TV. Watch this and savor every second.


FRED THOMPSON, ACTOR AND FORMER SENATOR: You know, I`ve been looking at my schedule, Michael, and I don`t think I have time for you. But I may be the least of your problems.

You know, the next time you`re down in Cuba visiting your buddy, Castro, you might ask him about another documentary filmmaker. His name is Nicolas Guillen. He did something Castro didn`t like, and they put him in a mental institution for several years, giving him devastating electroshock treatments. Mental institution, Michael. Might be something you ought to think about.


BECK: I love Breitbart. Thank you. And Fred Thompson, thank you.

The Cuban filmmaker that Thompson was just talking about was an award- winning documentary maker who made a movie that mocked Fidel Castro. Joining me now, Calixto Navarro from the Cuban Democratic Directorate and Dave Hardy. He`s the author of Michael Moore bio, "Big Fat Stupid White Man."

Calixto, let me start with you. The guy that Fred Thompson was talking about, tell me about him. What`s his story?

CALIXTO NAVARRO, CUBAN DEMOCRATIC DIRECTORATE: Well, he was a documentary -- he did documentaries. He was an artist. He passed away on the 22nd of July in 2003. But he was tortured, literally tortured in Cuba, for doing -- he was basically ridiculing Castro for deciding that he wanted to make this agricultural zone around the capital city of Havana. And he ordered -- Castro is not an agricultural -- or knows anything about agriculture, and he had everybody rip up all their traditional food, you know, plants that provided food to the city, and decided to make this agricultural area around the city.

It was a total disaster. And so Nicolas Guillen made this documentary about it. So anybody who criticized during that period in the `60s, that criticized Castro, you know what? You had to be crazy. So he was taken to the hospital, a psychiatric hospital, and given extreme numbers of electroshocks, because he had to be crazy.

BECK: For like 10 years, right?

NAVARRO: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. He was jailed, and then finally he left. He went into exile, and he resided in Miami where he died.

BECK: Dave, help me out. Why is it all of these -- you have Oliver Stone, you have Michael Moore -- all of Hollywood runs to these dictators like Castro, and embraces them, and says, "Oh, look at how great they are." What are they thinking?

DAVE HARDY, AUTHOR, "BIG FAT STUPID WHITE MAN": I think it`s just a love of the exotic. Anything which is non-American or, better yet, un- American is appealing to them. And so they have to run around and find that sort of thing. And if you`re looking for a Communist dictator in this world, there aren`t a whole lot of them left.

BECK: They do have -- and either of you guys that has an answer on this -- they do have this two-tiered health care system in Cuba. And, you know, this is what people like Michael Moore always rail about, "Oh, the poor can`t afford it." Well, the poor don`t get it in Cuba.

NAVARRO: Yes, and I would like to clarify. Medicine in Cuba is based on your loyalty to the government. If you are a military personnel, you go to a special hospital. If you are of the nomenclature, well, you get like the five-star treatment. You have all the best facilities. And I`m sure that that`s where Michael Moore went.

But I`m sure Michael Moore did not bother to visit where my family lives in Cuba and visit the hospital where they have to go, where there are no bed sheets, there`s no food, well, basically, food stuff for the prisoners. There`s really a tough, tough situation for the regular Cuban, the 11 million Cubans that are on the island.

And that is the part of Cuba that most Americans aren`t aware of. They say, "Free health care." It`s not free health care. They don`t have it. The only people that have it are the people of the nomenclature.

BECK: Hey, Dave, Michael Moore said that, not only is Elian Gonzalez back in Cuba than here, he actually said Elian Gonzalez`s mother would be better off in Cuba. Did he mean if she would have made it here alive or better in Cuba than dead?

HARDY: Lord only knows. I just know that he is basically, as you say, worshipping the Cuban establishment, because it`s the only anti- American establishment he could reach.

BECK: Do you think he believes this stuff, Dave? I mean, here he`s got these books out...


BECK: ... where he says you can`t make it in America, because everything is against you. And I think, here is a fat, ugly guy, with very -- and he comes from a very poor family, who`s flying around on a private jet. If he can make it, anybody can make it. Go ahead, Dave.

HARDY: He is all that he hates. Face it. He is all that he hates. He`s a very rich, white American male. He has a $1.9 million house in New York. He`s got a $1.2 million vacation place in Michigan, flies on private jets, at least on one occasion stayed in a $1,200 hotel room, goes to his documentary shoots in a limousine. He doesn`t travel with the film crew.

BECK: I`m sure he stopped traveling in the jets now just because of the C0-2 that he`s putting out. Gentlemen, thanks a lot. We`ll be back with your e-mail here in just a second.


BECK: All right, time for your letters and e-mails. A lot of people wrote in about the interview I did last night with the guy who claims to be Jesus Christ.

Rachel from Bakersfield wrote in, "Hey, Glenn, did you see Mr. Jesus` eyes? They looked like black holes. I thought any second he was going to jump through his screen and eat you. By the way, could you replay the look he gave you when you made that comment about him being arrested for theft?"

Rachel, you`re not kidding. And I thank God for satellite interviews. I mean, the real God, not the God that you`re referring to in this letter. In case you missed it, here`s what she wanted to see again.


BECK: But aren`t you Jesus?

JOSE LUIS DE JESUS, "THE APOSTLE": I am Jesus Christ man.

BECK: Oh, OK. And it`s weird, Jesus said he was going to come like a thief in the night, and you`ve been arrested for petty theft.


BECK: Plague of locusts coming my way. Hope he`s a forgiving Jesus.

Next letter from Danny in Toronto: "I often hear you use the word `snuck.` With greatest respect, I must tell you there is no such word as `snuck.` The word is actually `sneaked.` Danny in Toronto. P.S., if you`re ever hiring..."

Danny, first of all, snuck is a word. You want to know why? Because I use it all the time, and I`m on TV. You`re not. But thanks for the tip. And by the way, you know what? Today is really actually your lucky day. We are hiring. An opening on my staff has just come up. And you`d be perfect for it, except I don`t think I want someone working for me who would be constantly reminding me of which words are real and which words are not. Oh, well. Oopsy doozy.

Anywho, Jim writes in from Tucson. He says, "Did you happen to catch that awful flagrant foul on Steve Nash in game four of the Phoenix-San Antonio series? Of course, Horry deserves to be suspended. What do you think is fair? Do you think it`s fair that Stoudemire and Diaw will also have to sit out game five?"

I mean, I don`t know what the hell you`re even talking about, honestly. Maybe we should refer to the footage here. My producers have asked me to warn you that what you`re about to see is one of the most gruesome things you`ve probably seen in a long time. So now I`m interested in seeing it.

What the -- OK, see, this is a piece of artwork here that I -- I`m not even going to explain this. This is up for auction for the USO, and I can`t believe my staff has done this to me. I don`t really appreciate it. This is something that I did. It`s one of my first paintings that I`ve done in 12 years since I was sober. I should drink some more.

You can find how you can bid on it, and embarrass me, and humiliate me on national television, but it`s for a good cause, the USO. From New York, good night. Jeez.