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Glenn Beck
Former CIA Agent Weighs in on Destroyed Tapes; Is Waterboarding Torture?; Making Sense of Tragic Shooting; Environmentalist Proposes Tax on Babies
Aired December 11, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE PAGLIARULO, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the CIA on the hot seat for taping, then erasing a tough interrogation. But where`s the line when it comes to our nation`s security?
Plus, Mitt Romney counters a surging Mike Huckabee with a new campaign ad. Will the mudslinging make a difference?
And light at the end of the cell block for political prisoners Ramos and Compean. Why these border agents, jailed for shooting a drug dealer, could get their prison time reduced.
All of this and more tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO: Hello, America. I`m Joe Pagliarulo, Joe Pags, filling in for Glenn Beck, who`s on the road for his Christmas stage tour.
Tonight, cries of "what did he know and who did he know it" are once again being heard from Democrats as CIA director Michael Hayden appeared in a closed session on Capitol Hill today to answer questions about the destruction of CIA interrogation tapes back in 2005.
Those tapes, which the CIA says were destroyed to protect the identity of their operatives, reportedly show the interrogation of two high-value al Qaeda detainees.
Exactly what, shall we say, techniques those tapes contained isn`t known, but a former officer who participated in the questioning of one of those al Qaeda suspects says that waterboarding was not only used, but that it was also remarkably effective.
Although he never personally witnessed waterboarding himself, former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou claims that, in the case of the al Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah, it helped them quickly obtain information that disrupted several planned terror attacks. And it all happened, he says, in under one minute. John Kiriakou joins us now.
OK, John. Under one minute. So waterboarding, this whole hoopla about that, happens in how long?
JOHN KIRIAKOU, FORMER CIA OFFICER: It`s almost always under one minute.
PAGLIARULO: OK. Under one minute. I mean, you`re talking seconds here, and people are ready to tell everything they know?
KIRIAKOU: Yes. That`s how it worked with Abu Zubaydah. He lasted 30, maybe 35 seconds, which was a lot longer than the rest of us lasted when we tried it on each other.
PAGLIARULO: OK. So you`ve been waterboarded. I don`t want you to describe what it is, because I mean, that`s the big buzz thing on the presidential campaign right now.
We`re not going to say what this technique is, because then people can say, yes, it`s torture; no, it`s not torture. I`ll ask you, somebody who`s had this done to him, how long did you last and is it, in fact, torture?
KIRIAKOU: I lasted about five seconds.
PAGLIARULO: Five seconds.
KIRIAKOU: I couldn`t last any longer than five seconds.
PAGLIARULO: Now, I can hold my breath for about a minute and a half. I don`t know what waterboarding is. But honest to goodness, you thought you were going to die?
KIRIAKOU: I thought that I was going to drown. That`s what it feels like. Your body seizes up, it tenses up. Your muscles clench and you`re trying to writhe and get out of the way of the water. It`s really wholly uncomfortable.
PAGLIARULO: OK. So you -- you have this done. Other agents and operatives have this done. You know what it is. It is or is not torture, in your opinion?
KIRIAKOU: You know, in retrospect, I think it is torture. But that`s not to say that it was necessarily the wrong thing to do back in 2002.
PAGLIARULO: OK. So you say it`s remarkably effective, but the fact that you said back in 2002 that is important here, because your opinion has changed as to whether it should be used, right?
KIRIAKOU: It has changed. You know, in 2002, around the time we caught Abu Zubaydah, we were so obsessed with the idea that al Qaeda was planning another attack, a major attack on U.S. soil. We -- we thought that Abu Zubaydah had actionable intelligence, information that we -- that we needed in the immediate term to try to disrupt that terrorist attack.
PAGLIARULO: Were we safer because you guys were doing this technique?
KIRIAKOU: I`m sorry. Can you repeat that?
PAGLIARULO: Were we safer because you guys were doing this very technique?
KIRIAKOU: Absolutely. It`s because that technique was used on Abu Zubaydah that he gave us enough information that allowed us to disrupt a number of terrorist attacks.
PAGLIARULO: I`m going to have another guest on in a second here, John. He`s going to say not only isn`t it effective, that people can just lie their faces off and then this procedure will be stopped. Do you find that any of this happened or was the information that you got, by and large, good stuff?
KIRIAKOU: I can understand that perspective, but in the case of Abu Zubaydah, we were able to cooperate and vet the information that he provided, and it turned out to be completely true.
PAGLIARULO: OK. What do you think was on these tapes?
KIRIAKOU: I think that it was hours and hours of very boring conversations of two men sitting across the table from one another, one who happens to be handcuffed, talking about the minutia of al Qaeda and its leaders and its logistics.
PAGLIARULO: Why destroy it? I mean, I`ve been in the television business for a long time. We can mosaic faces; we can black out faces. Why destroy it? I mean, their identity could have been saved.
KIRIAKOU: Yes, I think destroying them was a mistake. I think that, at the very least for their historical value, even if they had been kept classified and locked in a safe somewhere in headquarters, that was the way to go.
PAGLIARULO: All right. John, thank you very much. Appreciate the knowledge.
Now, what was actually on those CIA tapes is probably irrelevant because at this point, once Washington catches even the faintest whiff of a scandal, they attack like rabid dogs. Forget passing a budget or tax reform. It`s crazy.
There`s an investigation to do. So where do we go from here and, more importantly, are we going to be spending all of 2008 talking about it?
Ivan Eland is a senior fellow at the Independent Institute and author of "The Empire has No Clothes: U.S. Foreign Policy, Exposed."
Ivan, thanks for taking the time. Just spoke with a former CIA agent who says waterboarding or other forms of -- of pushing people to tell us what they know about impending attacks, unbelievably successful in 2002/2003. Where are you on this?
IVAN ELAND, AUTHOR, "THE EMPIRE HAS NO CLOTHES: Well, I think actually the previous statement that this produced some information but -- and he thought it might have made a difference in preventing attacks is a bit tentative. We don`t know what information these people give us, because it`s very highly classified.
And in the case of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, many former and current CIA officials have said that he -- torture actually caused them to give him bad information. Torture usually results in people telling the interrogator whatever they want to hear to relieve the pain. So...
PAGLIARULO: Well, I could understand that perspective, but the only thing I would interject is this. Abu Zubaydah actually gave us very, very good information. And he was waterboarded, according to this former CIA agent.
And when this guy gives us very good information that we can look back three, four, five years ago and say, oh, yes, that was very good, this really isn`t a discussion point. There`s no debate here. It actually happened.
ELAND: Well, I`d like to see, you know, for them to pinpoint exactly what happened. The -- Kiriakou was very tentative in saying that this may have produced some information that prevented attacks.
PAGLIARULO: OK.
ELAND: And I think it might. And of course, as I mentioned, all of this is highly classified. So we don`t know. I mean, that`s the CIA telling us that.
If you -- if you consult FBI agents, they have a diametrically opposed view on torture. They say it`s very ineffective.
And I also think there`s some larger issues here. What do we stand for as a republic? I mean, waterboarding has been prosecuted in the United States historically, and it`s against international law and the Geneva Conventions.
And the other in this, are we getting -- even if we do get, let`s say in the best case, we get information out of Abu Zubaydah. Does this drive the jihadists crazy and create more terrorists?
PAGLIARULO: I don`t care about that. I`m not going to worry about creating more terrorists, because terrorists -- because terrorism is bad to begin with and to end with. I`m not -- if we`re creating them, that means that there`s a situation where they happen to live and where they`re coming from that`s -- that`s certainly, you know, helping to fertilize that situation from happening.
I want to ask specifically about these tapes. I think it`s ridiculous that they ever erased them. To say they had to do it erase them because the identities of the agents would be exposed, I`ve been in television a long time, as I mentioned before. And we can mosaic people`s faces, change their identities. That -- you and I will probably agree on that.
The fact that waterboarding or whatever other means were used in 2002 or 2003 right after the attacks of 9/11 makes sense to me, and that`s where you and I separate. Go specifically on the erasure of these tapes and what that tells you.
ELAND: Well, I think it tells me that the Bush administration was repeatedly asked by the CIA to come down on this. And they purposefully evaded it.
I think they hoped that the CIA would get rid of these tapes, because as you know as a broadcast journalist, pictures are worth 1,000 words. You know, what if Abu Ghraib, the shenanigans of Abu Ghraib have just been described. No, we saw it. The whole world saw it. And that also created jihadists. And I`m afraid, you know, they -- we do create jihadists by some of the things we do.
PAGLIARULO: You and I will never agree that we create jihadists no matter what we do here. They`re created because of a -- a system of bringing people up under a certain regime that hates others who aren`t like them.
And that`s where it comes from. If that isn`t -- isn`t what`s happening at home, then nothing we do is going to make people killers. Nothing you say or do is going to make me a killer. Nothing I say or do is going to do that to you. So to suggest our actions are applying to what`s happening over there I think is a little bit outlandish.
But Ivan, I appreciate your opinion, and we`ll talk again soon, I`m sure.
Up next, the very latest on 24-year-old Matthew Murray, the Colorado gunman who killed four people. What drove him to murder, and is there an all-out attack on Christianity that the media is ignoring?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: Coming up in just a bit, a new poll shows GOP candidates aren`t really connecting with the voters. Does this mean Hillary has got a clearer path to the White House? Details ahead.
But first, as two Colorado communities continue to heal from the tragedies they faced over the weekend, authorities focus on connecting the dots as to what may have motivated Matthew Murray to walk into two religious centers, kill four people and wound several more before being shot himself by the brave actions of one alert security guard.
Murray once worked for Youth With a Mission where the first shooting occurred, but reportedly was kicked out just before one of their mission trips to Bosnia. Investigators say he sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence to the organization in the wake of that decision.
Authorities also believe Murray posted anti-Christian writings on a Web site just hours before his rampage.
According to KUSA-TV in Denver, Murray wrote, "You Christians brought this on yourselves, and all I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can, especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world. Terrifying." Terrifying, tragic, scary stuff.
Tonight, joining me is Paul Filidis. He is one -- he is the director of communications for Youth With a Mission.
Paul, tell me how the community is pulling together, is dealing with this, knowing that a guy who used to be part of an organization ends up being the one who did this.
PAUL FILIDIS, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, YOUTH WITH A MISSION: Well, we`ve been very privileged, and we`re very grateful for the support we have in the community in Arvada.
I myself am with the Youth With a Mission communications office in Colorado Springs, where the shooting at the New Life Church occurred. We`ve had church support. We`ve had community support in Arvada. The mayor spoke out, and we were able to move everyone who -- you know, the police moved everybody out right away -- people were barefoot because they were still sleeping in their PJs -- to another facility that we had a half an hour away.
PAGLIARULO: Paul, I`ve got to tell you. I`m a family man; I`m a Christian. I feel horribly for what happened to you guys. My heart goes out to you.
FILIDIS: Thank you.
PAGLIARULO: I`ve got to -- I`ve got to ask. This guy, when he was sending correspondence, when he was threatening, did you inform the police at all about that? Did the police know that this man was, in fact, a threat to you and your organization and your church?
FILIDIS: You know, that is a totally new part of the story that emerged yesterday. I talked to the directors in Arvada of the Youth With a Mission training center. They are not aware of any e-mail that has been coming of a threatening nature lately.
PAGLIARULO: This is something where he wrote things on Web sites, so on and so forth.
FILIDIS: Right.
PAGLIARULO: He hated Christians. He wanted to kill Christians. Did you feel as though running this organization, a Christian organization in a church community, do you feel as though you`ve got to watch your back now simply was you`re a Christian?
FILIDIS: I -- I hope not. I mean...
PAGLIARULO: I hope not, too, but is it reality now?
FILIDIS: No. No. We will continue to love and welcome anybody. I mean, you know, Christ sat with the good guys and the bad guys. And we will not judge and make distinctions. We will continue -- I mean, you can never guarantee safety in this fallen world.
PAGLIARULO: OK. Paul, thank you very much. Again, my heart goes out to you and your organization.
So, who was Matthew Murray? What was he like? Let`s speak to someone who knew this guy. On the phone is Richard Werner, who shared a room with Murray in 2002 at the Youth With a Mission Center.
Richard, when you heard about this shooting, when you heard about this happening, where you used to be -- where you`d go and serve, what did you think first?
RICHARD WERNER, FORMER ROOMMATE OF MATTHEW MURRAY: The first thing I did -- I was with my wife, and I said, "Unfortunately, I know who -- I think I know who did it." You know, because it was something that -- at the time, you can never imagine, but after it happens with something so obvious.
And when the news came out that was really him, he was just like -- it just crushed my heart, you know.
PAGLIARULO: OK. What you`re saying is you almost made an immediate assumption, you know. I wonder if this guy did it.
WERNER: It wasn`t almost. I did. You know, I was sure about it.
PAGLIARULO: All right. Now, there was some sort of a stage place, some sort of a musical, some sort of a play, something that happened when you were there with this guy? He acted oddly in what way?
WERNER: We had our Christmas festival, December 14, 2002. And a lot of the kids just play Christmas songs and play just funny stuff. And then he just went up and he -- he played two songs, one by Linkin Park. It was "One Step Closer" that goes, "I`m one step closer to the edge, and I`m about to break." And the other one was "Sweet Dreams Are Made of This," and then he did this in this Smigel voice, you know, like from "Lord of the Rings," in a very, very bizarre way.
PAGLIARULO: It sounds -- it sounds bizarre. You said that, while you were bunking with this guy, he was in the -- in the top bunk and talking to somebody. There was nobody there, right?
WERNER: Exactly. And then I woke up one night. It was like 5 a.m. in the morning. And I was like, "Matthew, what are you doing? Why are you making so many noises?"
And he was like, "Dude, I`m just talking to myself."
And I was like, "You`re talking to yourself?"
And he goes, "NO, I`m talking to my voices."
And I go, like, "You`re kidding, right?"
He goes, "Don`t worry, Richard. You don`t have to worry because you`re a nice guy. And the voices, they like you."
PAGLIARULO: The voices liked you. Well, that`s great.
WERNER: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: Richard, I`m sorry that, you know, that you`re hearing about this from a place that you used to be a part of. Thank you for taking the time with us today.
I want to talk about Jeanne Assam. She is the name of the brave security guard who said it was her faith that kept her hands steady as she shot Matthew Murray, preventing what many believe could have been an even greater loss of life. She`s being held as a hero. I saw one news report that suggested she might have saved 100 lives.
But as often happens in the wake of such tragic events, the gun control debate is once again -- is once again at the forefront. Should churches have armed security?
Jeff Beatty is a security consultant who has worked with the CIA, the FBI, Delta Force.
Jeff, authorities now believe Murray may have died by a self-inflicted gunshot wound, but if Jeanne had not been there and had not taken that first shot, this could have been a lot worse, right?
JEFF BEATTY, SECURITY CONSULTANT: Well, it certainly could have been. And she`s to be credited and so is the church, insofar as they took the threat seriously. After they`d had the incident some 12 hours earlier and 80 miles away, as a precaution, they decided to put armed security -- I think they had six security officers, three armed, three unarmed...
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BEATTY: ... into the church. Now, if they hadn`t done it, can you imagine, Joe, what it would have been like, if they had only had unarmed security there?
PAGLIARULO: No, no. It would have been horrible. Unarmed security, honest to goodness, is just there for a show of force and can`t really do anything against the gun.
BEATTY: Now one interesting thing I think will probably come out, is clearly, he did not want to shoot outside of the church.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BEATTY: He wanted to get into that church where he could take as many casualties as he possibly could. But I think -- I infer from what we know so far that the Works family, the two young ladies who were lost outside, and their father is still in the hospital, he fired upon them in the parking lot.
You know, I believe this of a change in our national psyche, Joe. It`s we`re no longer the victims we were before 9/11. It`s like the people on United 93.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BEATTY: I believe what will come out is that these people saw him approaching the church with a weapon. They either were going to go call the alarm, or they were going to physically try to stop him themselves, maybe get in the car and go after him, run him down.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BEATTY: Who knows? But I believe that their tripwire alerted Jeanne Assam, inside the sanctuary, to take cover, to understand that the threat was about to come through the door. And I think that we`re going to find that Jeanne is not the only hero in this situation.
PAGLIARULO: Well, listen, I think that -- I think that it`s being ignored, by and large, by the national media. I think there`s a full-out onslaught against Christianity. As a security expert, would you suggest that Christian churches or all places of worship need to step up the security, maybe get an armed security guard outside the church that could have stopped him before he got in?
BEATTY: Well, I think, you know, I would give the church an "A" for what they did. But to get an A-plus, they would have had to have some of their security officers outside. You want early warning.
Now, I know a lot of churches think about the decision to hire off- duty police, to do parking or sheriff`s personnel to do parking and make sure people can get across the street. I would urge them, let`s guard against copycats. Let`s be a little cautious for a while. And if you were on the bubble about doing that, I would urge them to do it. Because that deterrent value can`t be underestimated.
PAGLIARULO: You know, there always are -- there always seem to be copycats. Somebody shoots up a mall. Suddenly, we have somebody shooting up a church. This morning, I heard there might have been another shooting at a school in Florida.
This is something to where, if they didn`t step up after hearing about the first shooting, a lot more people would have died. Do you think people should continue to be vigilant until this dies down a bit?
BEATTY: Well, they absolutely must be.
PAGLIARULO: OK.
BEATTY: And we can also roll the clock back to the Nebraska mall shootings.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BEATTY: Even though the police got there in six minutes, what would it have been like in there if there were another person like Jeanne Assam who had a weapon legally, and maybe only one or two people would have gotten hurt, instead of eight killed.
PAGLIARULO: Right. And that`s another story for another day, because it was a gun-free zone. So on and so forth.
Jeff, we`ll talk to you again.
BEATTY: Right.
PAGLIARULO: I appreciate you taking the time.
BEATTY: Thank you.
PAGLIARULO: There are all sorts of wild ideas out there on how to save the planet from global warming. Now one guy has proposed that we tax babies. I`ll explain this lunacy in a second.
Then, Mike Huckabee is surging in the polls, and his fellow GOP candidates aren`t too happy. See what one is doing to stop the former Arkansas governor`s momentum.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: Well, just when you thought Al Gore and his posse couldn`t push the envelope on global warming any further, along comes Barry Walters, a professor in Australia who is proposing -- get this -- a baby tax to help save the planet.
The professor wants to charge parents 5,000 Australian dollars -- that`s a little over $4,000 U.S. -- for every child after their second and about $700 U.S. every year for life. Better yet, under his plan, couples who get sterilized would be eligible for carbon credits. Yay.
Joining me now from Pittsburgh is the host of this very show and the author of "An Inconvenient Book," Glenn Beck.
Glenn, I have three kids. You have four. You know, we`ve got a little something extra now. If our kids are acting up, we can say, "We had you even though we know we were killing the planet."
GLENN BECK, HOST: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: This guy is out of his mind. No?
BECK: Yes. This is insane. And a lot of these environmentalists absolutely hate people.
There is a story that I gave on the radio show a couple of weeks ago about a woman who was sterilized, had an abortion because she was hurting the planet. And her, I believe he`s now her husband, gives her a card every year on the anniversary of the abortion, saying, "Congratulations, you helped the planet."
A lot of these people just hate people. And I`ve got to tell you, wouldn`t this place be perfect if just all the people were dead?
PAGLIARULO: It would be so much better. The birds could sing.
BECK: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: The trees could flourish, the cows could fart all they wanted. I mean, it would be fine.
BECK: You know, people don`t understand. Humans are part of the circle of life. You know, it`s the same kind of environmentalists that took the wolves out of Yellowstone Park and said, "Oh, it would be so much better without the wolves." Well, they shipped them up to Canada. Now they had to put them back into the wildlife...
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BECK: ... because it`s part of the circle of life. We are animals ourselves.
PAGLIARULO: Well, it`s all a pretty good design. Right, Glenn? I mean, I`m not sure why these people -- honestly, I do understand why they think that more people would hurt the planet. Why not off themselves? I`m not suggesting suicide to anybody, but I mean, come on.
BECK: NO, look, here`s the thing. This is all -- you notice, it`s taxes. You know, it`s about penalizing people with taxes.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BECK: This is -- and I talk about it in the book. The first chapter, in 21 pages I can tell you exactly what the global warming thing is really all about. And it boils down to this. Internationalism, loss of sovereignty and taxes. Period. It is a redistribution of wealth.
If you really care about the planet, stop having yourself sterilized. You`re a freak. And actually, you, maybe you should get yourself sterilized if you think that`s what it`s going to take.
If you really want to change the planet, stop talking to me about taxes and moving wealth from one place to another. And do yourself a favor. Become a vegan. If you really want to save the planet, look at the IPCC report. Become a vegan.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BECK: That`s the -- that`s the thing you can do that would have the most impact. But they`re not doing that.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
BECK: Because this isn`t really about saving the planet. This is all about redistribution of wealth.
PAGLIARULO: I wish more people would become vegans, because then there would be more meat for me.
Listen, we are actually being out-birthed. I mean, you look at -- you talk about this a lot. We`re not having enough babies. Now we`ve got nut jobs who allegedly on the western world, who say don`t have any babies.
BECK: Look, I`ve got to tell you, we are killing ourselves. We are - - we are -- some day historians will look back and say, "Look at the demise of the west. And look how they brought it upon themselves."
We are facing a perfect storm. One of them -- read about it in Mark Steyn`s book, "America Alone." The population numbers alone, we are erasing Europe, and we`re erasing America. Have more babies, not fewer.
PAGLIARULO: All right, Glenn. Glenn Beck, host of this very program, thank you, Glenn, for everything you`ve done for me.
"An Inconvenient Book" is the book. Go and get it.
Up next, GOP candidates are breaking out the mud in a bid to slow Mike Huckabee`s momentum. I`ll have that story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: There is a new push in Congress to get border guards Ramos and Compean out of prison before Christmas. I`ll tell you whether this resolution has a chance of succeeding in just a bit.
But first, some good news. Just three weeks to go before the Iowa Caucuses. Unfortunately, with the good news always comes some bad. It seems undecided voters remain that way as this volatile and seemingly never-ending primary race continues its painfully slow finish.
And the polls, well, they generally reflect that unflattering picture as well. The latest New York Times poll, the most grim for the GOP contenders, respondents there say they remain uninspired by the Republican field. Not one of those candidates garnering favorable ratings. Not one from even half of their party`s electorate.
That may explain in part the recent and rapid rise of former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, now in a statistical dead heat with the lead nationally along with fellow frontrunner Rudy Giuliani. Now that`s according to the latest CNN polling.
Huckabee has been beefing up his stance on the border, highlighting his support for a no-tolerance policy and a border fence in his latest ad, and today even garnering the endorsement of Jim Gilchrist, he from the Minutemen organization.
Well, that position naturally called into question by his rivals, particularly Mitt Romney now, who began running an attack ad in Iowa this week slamming Huckabee on his immigration record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mitt Romney stood up and vetoed in-state tuition for illegal aliens, opposed driver`s licenses for illegals. Mike Huckabee supported in-state tuition benefits for illegal immigrants. Huckabee even supported taxpayer-funded scholarships for illegal aliens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAGLIARULO: Not easy to be on top, is it, Mike? OK. Lots to get to in the world of politics. And joining me to parse it all out, senior political writer for the Politico, Jonathan Martin. GOP strategist Michael Reagan also with us. And Democratic strategist Peter Fenn.
Gentlemen, we appreciate your time. Welcome. OK. I just said it. I`ll start with you, Peter. You guys -- I mean, on the lib side, on the Democrat side, they just must be loving this. Huckabee is on top. Giuliani is second (INAUDIBLE) nationally. They`re fighting it out independently in Iowa. Mitt Romney and his religion. I mean, the Democrats have to be just sort of licking their chops, going, all right.
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, we`ve been a little quiet lately on all of this. You know, the interesting thing about this poll is it shows Hillary with a 68 percent positive. It shows Obama with a 54 percent positive. The highest on the Republican side is Rudy at 41.
So that`s a 27-point difference between Hillary and Rudy. It`s a none-of-the-above going on out there I think for a while. First of all, they thought that Fred Thompson would come in, he would be the savior, and now they`re looking upon Huckabee to generate the enthusiasm.
PAGLIARULO: Well, you know, Peter, I`ve got to tell you, I don`t think Fred Thompson he has awakened yet. I mean, the guy is like half asleep. So we`ve got to get him going on that.
Hey, Michael, I`m wondering, when you watch what`s going on on the Republican side of things, kind of a good thing for conservatives and Republicans, let them fight it out now and they we can focus our attention on issues later?
MICHAEL REAGAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, you only have two different issues going on. You have one like Peter is talking about, is the national issues. Nobody cares about national right now. It really doesn`t matter where Huckabee is, where Giuliani is, where anybody is on a national basis. We`re not having a national election. We`re having state- wide caucuses and elections.
Where are they standing in Iowa? Where are they standing in New Hampshire? Where are they standing in Florida? Where are they standing in Michigan? Because based on how they do there, the national polls will completely change.
So because people haven`t made their final decision three, four weeks out from the election is nothing new. They won`t firm up until right after Christmas because right now everybody is Christmas shopping. Right after Christmas they`ll start firming this thing up. They`ll go to the caucuses on January 3rd. They will make their decision and move on from there.
PAGLIARULO: Hey, Jonathan, but I think Michael makes a great point. I mean, this isn`t a national election yet, but when we see Huckabee is, he is making such in-roads in Iowa that the national polls, he`s blowing up there. It`s kind of all relative, isn`t it?
JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO.COM: Well, Michael makes a very, very smart point. And that is that these news polls showing Huckabee surge point out why national polls aren`t worth a whole lot, at least right now. Because it demonstrates just how tenuous Giuliani`s lead has been where Huckabee can come basically out of nowhere and pull into a tie with him.
What matters right now is what happens in those traditional first states, Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan, South Carolina. And if it`s a muddy, unclear scenario and you have multiple winners in those states, that`s helpful to Giuliani.
But look, you know, the one constant about this GOP race is that you can`t handicap it. It`s impossible to predict what`s going to happen.
PAGLIARULO: Hey, is Huckabee in trouble because of this immigration thing? Clearly he`s flip-flopping here.
FENN: I think he is in a little trouble. I wrote a little piece today, I think that actually was a brilliant ad that the Romney people put out. Not only did it drive the distinction on immigration, but it also at the beginning of the ad talked about where Huckabee and Romney agreed and that was on pro-life and pro-family, which of course, was the little zinger at Giuliani.
So you`ve got a situation here now where I think the guys are right. I mean, look, the -- even though the Democrats are more pleased with their field than the Republicans are with theirs, this is going to sort itself out in Iowa and New Hampshire and those early states.
REAGAN: Yes, it really will. And the ad that Mitt Romney put out is absolutely dead on. It`s not an attack ad. It`s, here where he stands, here`s where I stand on immigration. In Iowa, the big issue in Iowa happens to be immigration. So for Mitt Romney to point this out that there is a difference between him and Mike Huckabee is absolutely all right. Don`t call it an attack ad.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: Well, it`s funny, I do two radio shows in Texas. We have got an immigration problem there. Is there a border in Iowa that I wasn`t aware of?
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: You talk about the meat-packing plants in Iowa, all of that. Listen, I live in California, where it all started -- here in California. Hey, we are sending the illegals to the Midwest because we`re full up here.
PAGLIARULO: Yes. OK. Thanks, Michael. I appreciate that.
Hey, Jonathan, I`m wondering, Mitt Romney comes out, He talks about his religion. I thought that was kind of dumb. I don`t know what Hillary Rodham Clinton`s religion is. I know nothing about it. Why is this always an issue for the Republican side?
MARTIN: Well, I think in Romney`s case, clearly it`s hurting him in Iowa where you have the evangelical base of the party coalescing around Mike Huckabee. And so Romney is trying to do something about that. The problem is that you simply highlight the problem you have when you give a speech like that.
But, look, I just want to add, there`s no question that immigration is the preeminent issue among Iowa Republicans. If something -- if any kind of an issue can sink Huckabee -- and it`s a question as to whether any issue can sink somebody who has risen based on popularity, but if any issue can sink Huckabee, it is going to be immigration in Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: If I can jump in for a moment on this.
PAGLIARULO: Go ahead, go ahead.
REAGAN: In Iowa, about 40 percent of the electorate are Christian- based, and that is why Huckabee is doing so well in Iowa. That`s why Mitt Romney had to give this kind of a speech, to try and shake that group loose and bring them back over to Mitt Romney.
When he gets to New Hampshire, it`s completely different. You have all of the independents there. And it`s not so much the Christian community showing up in New Hampshire as they will show up in Iowa.
REAGAN: Hey, Peter, what is Hillary Rodham Clinton`s religion?
FENN: She`s -- I think she`s an.
MARTIN: She`s Methodist.
FENN: . Episcopalian -- Methodist.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: That`s my point here. I mean, it`s not like the Democrats back when Kennedy.
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: No, wait a minute, on Sunday she`s a Southern Baptist.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: . She`s a Southern Baptist -- when she was in Selma she was, yes.
FENN: But, you know, the interesting thing is that I think what we`re facing here, I mean, is a situation where Rudy Giuliani better hope that Huckabee beats Romney in Iowa. If Romney now comes back and does defeat -- and he has got all the money in the world to spend there. Huckabee has no money. He wins there. You know.
MARTIN: He`s the comeback kid.
FENN: Exactly. And he takes those into New Hampshire. And then Rudy, he`s waiting for Florida. He`s going to be waiting a long time.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: Hey, guys. I`ve got basically no time. Quick comment from all three of you, about five seconds, Oprah, helps or hurts Obama?
Go ahead, Peter.
FENN: Oh, definitely helps him, definitely.
PAGLIARULO: Michael?
REAGAN: Helps.
PAGLIARULO: OK. And Jonathan?
MARTIN: Helps. More names, more e-mails, more phone numbers.
PAGLIARULO: Very good. Michael, Peter, Jonathan, thank you much for the knowledge.
Border agents Ramos and Compean still behind bars today with Christmas fast approaching. Their crime? Doing their jobs. I`ll tell you whether a group of Congressmen have what it takes to get these heroes out of jail. We`ll do that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: The incarceration of former Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean has been politely called a miscarriage of justice. But I`m not so polite. I think it`s a bunch of crap. In case you`ve been under a rock, let me remind you, Ramos and Compean were sentenced to 11 years and 12 years in prison, respectively, for violating the civil rights of a drug smuggler they shot in the butt in 2005 after witnessing him trying to sneak across the border, probably with a bunch of drugs.
Now while they wait for a ruling on a recent appeal, several Congress members are trying a different approach here. They`re introducing a resolution asking the president to commute their sentences. Maybe, just maybe, sanity will prevail here and these brave men can get home to their families for the holidays. Texas Congressman John Culberson is a co- sponsor of the resolution. And Mike Cutler (ph) is a former special agent for the INS and is now a senior fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies.
Congressman, let me start with you. This isn`t the first time legislation has been proposed. Last time it hit a road block. The president won`t talk about it. Do you think it`s going to have a chance this time?
REP. JOHN CULBERSON (R), TEXAS: I hope so. We have tried every legislative avenue available to us, Joe. I`m very proud of Chairman Delahunt. And he has filed this resolution along with me and a group of Republicans and Democrats asking the president to commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean.
The president needs to "Scooter-ize" Ramos and Compean, for the same reason he commuted the sentence of Scooter Libby. These agents.
PAGLIARULO: That`s a great term. I love that, "Scooter-ize." I`m going to use it on my radio shows. Are you kidding me?
CULBERSON: Please do, absolutely.
PAGLIARULO: To commute this guy -- Scooter Libby sentence made sense to a lot of us. Why won`t the president even answer? Can you get a one- on-one conversation with him, Congressman? Can you sit down and talk to him?
CULBERSON: No.
PAGLIARULO: (INAUDIBLE) through Dana Perino, how does this work? How do we get to him?
CULBERSON: We, all of us as a nation, need to continue the letters, the phone calls, the e-mails to the White House demanding that Ramos and Compean have their sentences commuted for the same reason Scooter Libby had his sentence commuted.
This case is a gross miscarriage of justice for these two agents. And it also symbolizes what`s wrong with our borders. The White House, the Border -- Homeland Security will not enforce the law. They`re not securing the border, which is insane when you`re at war with terrorists who we know are sneaking over that border.
And we will never win the war on terror until we have secured that border. And it`s the highest priority of my constituents. And in Texas, we understand how important a secure border is. And the Hispanic community supports the enforcement of the existing law.
PAGLIARULO: They absolutely do. We`ll talk about -- more about that in a second.
Mike, what is the impetus for anybody, anybody to go be an INS agent or ICE agent, or a Border Patrol agent knowing that there`s a good chance your government is not going to back you when you do your job?
MICHAEL CUTLER, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: You`re exactly right. I mean, boy oh boy, you have to wonder about the sanity of anybody who would take that job knowing that if they don`t get killed by the smugglers, that they`re going to be imprisoned by their own government.
And I want that to thank Congressman Culberson for his support for these agents and his support for securing the borders. Because you`re right, a country without secure borders can`t win a war on terror. It`s remarkable that Border Patrol agents, in fact, were sent to Iraq to secure the Iraqi border while our border remains a literal sieve.
PAGLIARULO: Right. I think that`s absolutely insane. When it comes to what happened last week, Congressman, you had Ramos and Compean had a great day in court. The U.S. attorney had to admit that their star witness is a big, fat, lying liar. That is the first thing.
The second thing was, the judge said, listen, you guys piled on. You charged them with a weapons charge. Isn`t that their job to carry a weapon? What can be made out of that? Will the appeal go forward? And why aren`t these guys out pending that appeal?
CULBERSON: The -- in fact, the trial judge denied an appeal bond, which is done for every low-life criminal in the country. They get an appeal bond, a chance to.
PAGLIARULO: Why?
CULBERSON: You know, who knows? So I am convinced that this prosecution was done, Joe, to placate the Mexican government, which adds to the outrage. I think these agents, our law enforcement officers on the border face the threat of being prosecuted at the request of the Mexican government, essentially. And it is just an outrage.
And in fact, the -- you`re right, the court of appeals oral argument was very encouraging. The judges recognized the government overreached and in fact there are interviews with three of the jurors in this case who said that if they`d known that this drug dealer was running other loads into the country while he was under this immunity agreement, they would have acquitted, they would have voted to have found Ramos and Compean not guilty.
And I think the court of appeals is going to zero in on the fact that drug dealer was a low-life and a liar. He was running loads under immunity. And he lied under oath and dismissed this conviction. And they need to be freed immediately, whether by the president or the court of appeals.
PAGLIARULO: Yes. Hey, Mike, so what is it that people who are on the border trying to protect our sovereignty here face the most? Is it the fact that the Mexican government will back up a Mexican national no matter if he`s a drug smuggler or a father trying to make a better life for his wife and kids?
CUTLER: Either way.
PAGLIARULO: What is it that they`re facing the most?
CUTLER: Well, either way, money is going back to Mexico. Look, last year $22 billion was wired. That`s the money that`s visible. You know what`s really remarkable though about Johnny Sutton, the prosecutor, he blames the Congress and says, well, you know, Congress needs to change the penalties when we convict people for these crimes.
PAGLIARULO: Well, he`s the one who trumped up the charges. He is the one that did it.
CUTLER: But -- right. And by the way, he had prosecutorial discretion. He didn`t have to bring those charges. We used to try to get cases accepted for prosecution for immigration law violations and very often, because of prosecutorial discretion, the U.S. Attorney`s Office in New York would not accept the case.
PAGLIARULO: Hey, Congressman, I`m wondering, when it comes to Johnny Sutton and what happened here, he admitted -- or his office admitted that this guy lied on the stand. They had to know what he was going to say on the stand, right? What are they hiding here? Is this some big cover-up that we don`t see?
CULBERSON: Listen, in fact, I think we should have an investigation on Johnny Sutton`s office and the way he has handled this prosecution. There was a deputy sheriff, Hernandez, from Rock Springs, Texas, Joe, who was prosecuted by Johnny Sutton for shooting at a vehicle that almost ran him over. And unknown to him, there were people in the back, and a bullet goes in the trunk and grazes a woman`s cheek. The Mexican government demands and got the prosecution by Johnny Sutton of this deputy sheriff, Hernandez.
This prosecutor has gone way over the line. It looks like he is basically prosecuting U.S. law enforcement officers at the request of the Mexican government. We need to investigate. Congress needs to know what did Johnny Sutton know and when he did know it about this drug dealer lying and abusing this immunity agreement?
PAGLIARULO: Keep us updated. Congressman, Mike, thank you very much.
CULBERSON: We will never give up.
CUTLER: Thanks for having me.
PAGLIARULO: All right. Thank you.
It`s time now for tonight`s "Real America," bought to you this evening by CSX. Joe Piscopo, you all know him. Well, he knows how to make people laugh. But tonight we see a side of Piscopo that many don`t often see.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO (voice-over): He`s a comedian, best known for his celebrity impersonations, going back to his days on "Saturday Night Live." So why is Joe Piscopo talking about kids, guns, drugs and crime? Well, he says, because no one else is.
JOE PISCOPO, COMEDIAN: People don`t want to hear it. Someone is popped right on the street out here. They`re selling drugs two blocks away, $100 million a year, selling drugs, drug dealers paying off people just to keep their mouth shut.
You know what? You have got to look at yourself. Would you be in that situation?
How are you doing, good to see everybody. Hi, guys.
PAGLIARULO: Piscopo decided the best way he could help was to use his influence to shine a light on organizations reaching kids at risk. So he started the Positive Impact Foundation.
PISCOPO: Positive Impact Foundation creates positive media for at- risk children. That`s the way to reach the kids is to portray a positive message that will portray hope, that will teach self-esteem and character to these kids. Because when you put the camera on these kids, you say, you know, you`re doing good things.
PAGLIARULO: One organization Joe`s foundation supports is the United Community Center in Camden, New Jersey. Ranked as the fifth most dangerous city in the entire country, Camden has its problems, but when you step through these doors, you wouldn`t know it.
ROBERT DICKINSON, UNITED COMMUNITY CENTER: In 1983, myself, my wife, Wanda Dickinson (ph), we wanted to do something for the community here in Camden, New Jersey. We decided to start off programs that we believed that would draw the children and we thought the performing arts was the best.
We`ve been really -- a lot of great accomplishments that we have had in that area was due to the discipline courses or the martial arts, the cultural experience.
PAGLIARULO: Since 1984, Dickinson says that 10,000 children have come through the center and believes they have touched more than 30,000 kids through their work with churches, YMCAs, and the Boys and Girls Clubs.
PISCOPO: There`s crime all around them, yet they stay centered and take these kids in, in a storefront.
AYANNA DICKERSON, ATTENDS UNITED COMMUNITY CENTER: I lost a lot of friends to violence, guns, all sorts of things. So I`m thinking, like, that could have been me if I wasn`t in the community.
MUNIR GRIFFIN, ATTENDS UNITED COMMUNITY CENTER: I`d be on the street, like getting in trouble, selling drugs, probably getting shot, in a graveyard. It`s a savior.
PISCOPO: This is something that completely humbles me as a human being and gives you a purpose as a human being.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO: Tonight`s "Real America," sponsored by CSX, "How Tomorrow Moves."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: Time for today`s "Only in New York" moment. So what do you get when you combine four musical theater performers, a $10,000 contest prize, and a little exotic dancing? Well, you get a very interesting ride in the subway.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARISSA LUPP, DANCER: So we did not mean to cause a stir.
KEMBERLY RICHARDSON, WABC REPORTER (voice-over): The type of tension subway riders overwhelmingly want more of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had to pause for a second. I said, wow, Union Square? Whew!
RICHARDSON: They`re now four-star hits on YouTube. This group of friends who decided these back-breaking leg-bending moves done on the N train could win them first prize, $10,000 in an online pole-dancing contest. They were right.
LUPP: Honestly, I was the one that held back at first. But as you see the tape, I was the one that was like jumping all over everyone. Like legs over the top of my head.
RICHARDSON: That`s Marissa in the black and white top. Three of the four girls, all musical theater performers, met us at the scene of the scene.
JESSICA WU, DANCER: It`s not about us being like sexy or lewd or anything. It`s about people, about their reaction. Some people are like in complete disbelief. And a lot of people really loved it.
LAURA ANDERSON, DANCER: It just got really fun like playing with the people a little bit, kind of like ruffling some feathers in a sense just to kind of like break the tension.
RICHARDSON: Or create some. The MTA has pulled out its rules of conduct, saying riders are not allowed to engage in any non-transit activities on subway cars, use sound production devices, do anything that may annoy, alarm, or inconvenience anybody, adding, this is disorderly conduct.
Does he look agitated?
(on camera): So far transit has not filed a complaint. Police say unless that happens, and even if it does, the ladies will probably not receive summons.
(voice-over): Would you ever do it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Depending on the circumstances. I think it`s pretty cool.
RICHARDSON (voice-over): The ladies gave part of the prize money to charity. The rest went towards rent. And we did find one person that agreed with the MTA, this 10-year-old boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disgusting.
RICHARDSON: This is more his speed.
Kemberley Richardson, Channel 7 Eyewitness News.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO: Very upset those dancers completely stole my idea. I was going to go on the -- thanks a lot for watching. Joe Pagliarulo, Joe Pags in for Glenn Beck from New York. Good night.
END
