Return to Transcripts main page

Glenn Beck

Who Should McCain, Obama Choose as VP? What Role for Hillary?; Ben Stein Offers Retirement Tips

Aired June 13, 2008 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE PAGLIARULO, HOST: Hello, America. I`m Joe Pagliarulo, Joe Pags, sitting in one last day for Glenn Beck while he wraps up his summer stage tour.

If you haven`t yet noticed, we in the media just love to speculate. So now that the likely presidential nominees are on the search for a vice president, we are practically drooling. Sorry about that.

Tonight let`s start with GOP presumptive nominee Senator John McCain and his options for vice president. With me once again tonight is Amy Holmes, former speech writer for Bill Frist while he was the Senate majority leader and current CNN political contributor.

And Amy, listen, we have been talking about this for the past couple of days now. And it`s very, very interesting. Yes, we love to speculate. But I really do believe that this time, more so than any other time, people who are going to vote will look very closely at the vice-presidential nominee. You agree?

AMY HOLMES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think that is absolutely crucial who John McCain picks as his vice -- vice president. On Wednesday, you know, we talked with Ralph Reed and to one of our producers. We asked him the question how important is it that John McCain choose a VP that evangelicals are going to like? And he said it was crucial. He has to do that.

Because we know that John McCain still had pretty squishy support in the evangelical community. If he chooses someone that they don`t like, then they may just stay home.

PAGLIARULO: Who jumps out at you right now, then, knowing that? Because I`ve got to tell you, other than Mike Huckabee, there`s nobody I think is a darling of the -- of the evangelicals right now.

HOLMES: Mike Huckabee, he has real problems with the -- sort of the inside-the-beltway insiders and economic conservatives that didn`t really like his populist message when it came to the economy.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: People are throwing out the name Tim Pawlenty. Even Governor Jindal in Louisiana is being thrown out there. I think he`s still a little bit too young, 37. I don`t know if he passes the commander in chief to step into John McCain`s shoes test.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: But you know, this is going to be an interesting consideration for them.

PAGLIARULO: And he`s completely unknown right now, too.

HOLMES: Yes.

PAGLIARULO: I mean, we`re starting to find out more about Bobby Jindal.

HOLMES: He`s totally new to the American people.

PAGLIARULO: OK. Let`s bring in our panel. We`ve got Republican strategist Kevin Madden, formerly the national press secretary for Mitt Romney`s campaign. John Ridley, is a political commentator for NPR and contributed to "Esquire" magazine. And Leslie Sanchez, a CNN political contributor and Republican strategist.

Welcome to all of you.

Kevin, I`ve got to start with you. Obviously, your guy, Mitt Romney, he was my -- my presidential nominee. He was the candidate -- I told everybody, nobody listened to me. Does he end up on this ticket or is the negative rhetoric that he and McCain went after each other with, is that going to stop him from getting that option?

KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think on the last couple of weeks you`ve seen that John McCain and Mitt Romney actually building a stronger personal relationship.

I always think the nature of primaries is that people focus on the differences, and when you come together in a general election, it`s a great opportunity to focus on a lot of what you care about, your mutual concerns.

So look, I think Mitt Romney is the strongest candidate in the field out there, because he has a regional -- a broad regional appeal beyond just Massachusetts. And he has his home state roots in Michigan. He also did very well in places like Colorado and Nevada, which are going to be crucial battleground states in the general election.

And better than anything, he can go after the Democrats on issues like the economy and health care and he can do it with a smile. Those are important, you know -- those are important considerations to take into account when you`re looking at a VP process.

HOLMES: Well, Leslie, when you look down the list at potential VP picks for John McCain, who jumps out at you? What`s the biggest consideration you`re looking at? Are you looking at the Electoral College map, geography or demography, constituents, evangelicals? What`s important to you?

LESLIE SANCHEZ, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: It`s interesting. History will tell you, as we all know, that geographically tends to be where a lot of these picks come from. They`re looking for strategic executive management skills, which is why you turn to governors.

You know, it`s an interesting thing about Mitt Romney. I`m definitely a fan. I know a lot of folks know Mitt know money.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, right.

SANCHEZ: You know, and they still have the signs in the yard. You know, talk about passionate Obama supporters. I don`t think people really understand the passionate Romney supporters. And I think he earned his mettle in terms of bowing down, you know, magnanimously, putting his support and resources.

And you can never discount that organizational campaign. You have somebody who really understood grassroots, and he built it from two years out from the primary. So there`s a lot to be said there.

I like Governor Crist in Florida, a critical state, because it`s so diverse. You have a lot of social conservatives in the northern part of the state. Need that strong appeal. And with Hillary Clinton off -- out on the hemisphere now, the Hispanic vote can be a little more crucial and more competitive in that state.

PAGLIARULO: I don`t want to harp on Mitt Romney, but John, I got to bring you in here. Wondering, can Mitt Romney deliver Michigan? Can he deliver Massachusetts, two historically blue states, at least in recent times? And if he can, wouldn`t John McCain just be remiss not to take a very long look at him?

JOHN RIDLEY, COMMENTATOR, NPR: I think, look, there are positives to all these individuals. Mitt Romney certainly has got a two-state strategy going for him.

I think more than anything John McCain needs excitement, though. I mean, you look at the numbers of people that Obama and Clinton were able to pull out of the primaries.

PAGLIARULO: It`s a good point.

RIDLEY: Something`s got to happen with John McCain that excites people. And I don`t mean just youthful excitement. Whatever it is with that base. Whether it`s evangelical, whether it`s economic, whether it`s from military strategy, people have got to get excited about John McCain`s campaign. I don`t know that they`re excited right now.

HOLMES: So following on that point, you know, there`s some analysis. Some critics say that John McCain, he actually can`t afford to pick someone too far to the right, because he needs to get those all-important independents and moderates. What about a Joe Lieberman? Would that be risking way too much?

PAGLIARULO: No, no!

RIDLEY: For me, my perspective, it would be tough. I don`t know that enough Republicans like him. I know there are probably a lot of independents who are centrists, probably don`t like him. I think that`s a -- it`s a bold choice, Amy, but I don`t know if it`s the right choice.

SANCHEZ: yes. No, not at all. I think you`d have a -- like a cry against that ticket, definitely, from a lot of conservatives, economic and social on that part.

You know, what`s interesting, even though we have to bring back the point, VP picks, even though people want to say this is a different type of year, tend not to be what people make their ultimate decision on. It`s going to come out to that big contrast that`s at the top of the ticket.

PAGLIARULO: Kevin, I want to bring you back in here. I don`t -- I don`t know that John McCain does something silly and crazy as grabbing Hillary Clinton for his vice-presidential nominee, although some people have said that. But how about the name Tom Ridge?

You draw Tom Ridge, he`s got executive experience. He`s also pro- choice, so maybe that appeals to some of the 18 million that voted for Hillary Clinton, right?

MADDEN: Well, look, Tom Ridge would be a double down on national security and homeland security.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

MADDEN: And he would bring, you know, a lot of regional appeal in a very important state like Pennsylvania and have an ability to reach out to those Democrats.

But I agree with -- you know, Leslie made the point about social and economic conservatives being key coalitions to any victory in November for John McCain. I would worry that with a pro-choice VP pick that there would be a stampede of social conservatives away from the party. A lot of people would stay home.

So it`s still a possibility. But I think it would be a big risk for John McCain.

HOLMES: So Leslie -- Leslie, what about the youth factor? We know that they`re going to be turning out in droves. Obama did so well with that. Does John McCain stand a chance? Does he need to pick someone who can appeal to that generation? Another point being that the first president that people vote for can really stick in people`s voting patterns.

SANCHEZ: Do you know, you make a great point, Amy. I think there`s an interesting poll that`s in the field now that I`ve had a chance to look at dealing with these millennials, these voters under 30.

I think this is going to be the first generational election. There`s exactly one generation, 25 years, between these two. And it`s probably going split the way the country does. Probably anybody 45 and older, probably you know, lean toward John McCain, and under that will go toward Barack Obama.

So I don`t necessarily -- you`ll have some cross pollination, but I think in cohorts, in groups, they`ll tend to vote that way.

HOLMES: So you don`t think John McCain really has the chance with those younger voters?

SANCHEZ: He certainly is going to peal them off. If you look at Georgetown University, they`ve got this great John McCain campaign. And they had it way before any of the other candidates kind of fell out.

He has strong appeal on campuses. And especially with young economic conservatives who are concerned about the bottom line and taxes. Those are going to be strong appeals to young families.

PAGLIARULO: John, does he have to grab somebody like Mike Huckabee, who`s got the business sense of a Carly Fiorina? I mean, does he have to get somebody who`s got both of that? Is there a candidate like that, because, look, we`ve been talking about evangelicals over and over.

RIDLEY: Yes.

PAGLIARULO: A block of 16 to 18 million voters that are either going to stay home, like Kevin said, or they`re going to vote for the most conservative out there.

Again, if he goes moderate, if he goes centrist, he`s going to lose a really big block of that. He`s got to go young. He`s got to get excited. He`s got to get economics. He`s got a real big problem here.

RIDLEY: I think you really hit the nail on the head there. What is that base he`s going to go for? Who`s he going to try to bring? Is it going to be the conservatives? Is he going to try to go younger? Personally, I think that might be a mistake to try to go younger. I don`t think he`s going to...

PAGLIARULO: He`s not going to beat Barack Obama, is he?

RIDLEY: He`s not going to -- he`s not going to out-enthusiasm -- with enthusiasm try to get these people in.

You bring up Carly. I think she would be very interesting. People are always saying if you want some people who are outside of politics, outside of politics. She blunts what McCain has said about himself, that he doesn`t know much about the economy and about business. She`s a fund- raiser out on the West Coast. I think she`d be very interesting, and that would be a bold choice. Obviously, also bridging that gender gap.

HOLMES: So quick question for Kevin, though. How important is it that his VP pick pass that commander in chief test? Like Carly Fiorina, she has that executive experience. I think people might raise their eyebrows. Is she ready to be in the Oval Office?

MADDEN: Well, I think it all depends on how Carly Fiorina, if she were to be the pick, were to answer that.

But I do think you hit on something very important, and it`s going to be a consideration that the McCain camp looks at very closely as they go through the process, which is the readiness threshold.

The readiness threshold is a lot higher for John McCain, because there are going to be continuing lingering questions about his age. So he`s going to have to look for somebody also youthful but also can take that -- can pass that readiness test.

SANCHEZ: You`re exactly right. I would say Carly is a dynamic person who belongs in the Republican Party. She`s a tremendous asset. I`d like to see her as governor. I`d like to see her as commerce secretary. I`d like to see more experience there. And then, you know, building her into that type of leadership. I think that`s what a lot of people...

MADDEN: There`s no doubt that Carly Fiorina has a very promising political future if she wants one.

PAGLIARULO: All right, Kevin, John, Leslie, thank you so much for the knowledge. We really appreciate that.

Up next, now that we`ve gone over running mate options for John McCain, it`s time to take a look at his opponent. Who`s the best VP candidate for Barack Obama? Find out after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAGLIARULO: The speculation about Hillary Clinton becoming Barack Obama`s running mate began well before she`s ever hinted at her decision to suspend her campaign for the top spot on the ticket. But will she get the No. 2 job so easily?

There are plenty of other qualified contenders that Obama might opt for over Clinton: governors, military men and women who are not married to the loose canon that is Bill Clinton.

Amy, what do you think Obama should look for here in a vice- presidential candidate?

HOLMES: Well, you know, I think there are two things. I think he needs to be looking for a candidate with real foreign policy experience.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: With real gravitas to bring that to the ticket and to reassure the American voters.

I also think he needs a candidate that can appeal to those blue-collar voters that he didn`t do well with in the Democratic primary. And, you know, looking at the Electoral College map, he`s got to turn one of those red states blue.

So that being said, someone who I really like is Mark Warner. He doesn`t have the foreign policy experience.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, Warner.

HOLMES: But former governor of Virginia, self-made man, entrepreneur, millions of dollars, very impressive guy. And he`s running for the Senate.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: So he would have to be taking him off of that campaign. But seeing those two guys on stage, I thought they were pretty daunting together, actually.

PAGLIARULO: I, like you, would like to avoid Hillary Clinton if we can. But we can`t.

During the campaign it was talked about many, many times by Clinton more than it was ever Obama that, "Hey, you know, we`re not looking past the dream ticket. That could still happen." Now, she, of course, thought she`d be on top and he would be on the bottom.

He said, "I don`t know why we`re talking about this. We shouldn`t be talking about this."

We had Nancy Pelosi saying, "I don`t think you`re going to see a dream ticket."

We can`t avoid that the American electorate is not going to forget Hillary Clinton and her 18 million votes. Is it a viable possibility that he goes Hillary Clinton here? She`ll take it. She`s made that clear.

HOLMES: No. And I think for this reason, that Hillary Clinton, she revs up those conservatives. There`s nobody more that they would like to run against.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: So to put her on the ticket could be incredibly polarizing. I think he can get those 18 million voters with her blessing and with a different candidate. So Hillary is much too much of a mixed bag.

And let`s not forget, if you were to be in the White House...

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: She would be down the hall with Bill Clinton, scheming for four years.

PAGLIARULO: Let`s bring in our panel now. Peter Fenn, Democratic strategist and former Gore advisor. And Jenny Backus. Thank you so much, both of you for joining us.

Amy says -- and I think she`s right about this -- that Clinton would be a bad choice for Barack Obama. You say what?

PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think it`s a controversial choice; there`s no doubt about it. The key thing about this is how do you ignite the Democratic Party?

If you get those 18 million votes, as Amy said, you`re golden. I mean, basically, because there`s a 13-point spread between Democrats and Republicans, it is all up to the Democrats in this one. So the question is how does that all come together?

I do think there are a lot of other good candidates out there who can help unify this ticket, too. And I -- you know, I hate to always agree with Amy here.

HOLMES: That`s a good thing.

FENN: We were talking about this earlier. I think Mark Warner is an extraordinarily strong candidate. You know, a moderate Democrat, a guy who`s been a superb governor. They love him in Virginia. And he`s a business guy.

So you know, this is a nightmare for all you Republicans. I don`t know how you...

PAGLIARULO: Yes, you Republicans.

HOLMES: Jenny, when you`re looking down the list, who jumps out for you that really has every single element that Barack needs in a VP?

JENNY BACKUS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think it`s more going to be about who he personally connects with and how they can move this change message forward.

So there`s a couple of candidates out there that I think are really interesting. I actually really like the idea of a unity ticket and someone like Senator Chuck Hagel. I think he`ll stay on the list till the end. He`s a Republican, but he strongly agrees with Barack Obama`s solution, both on the war and on the economy. And...

PAGLIARULO: So he`s a Democrat.

BACKUS: No, no. I mean, unfortunately, you guys are going to be sad, but there`s a lot of Republicans, including some of my own family, who are really opposed to where George Bush has led the country on the war and really disappointed with where with we are right now in the economy.

PAGLIARULO: I want to throw a name at you, Jenny and Peter, both of you: Wesley Clark. If I`m a Democrat, I like Wesley Clark a lot.

The reason is he does did very well when it came to campaigning very, very little last time around. Had he jumped in earlier, he might have had a really good chance of doing something against George W. Bush.

And this guy, military experience. Come on, if nothing else, Barack Obama talks the -- he talks the talk about getting out of Iraq. But the comment he made about Pakistan and possibly attacking there, the comments that he`s made about foreign policy, do have him -- it`s a huge shortcoming.

Wesley Clark, I think, solidifies this ticket big time. If I`m a Democrat like you two, I love this choice.

BACKUS: I think Wesley Clark`s a good candidate. I think he`s not necessarily -- there`s other generals, I think, who`s names are ahead.

PAGLIARULO: Really?

BACKUS: Jim Jones right now. Yes, there`s General Jim Jones. There`s other generals that are out there.

The only problem with Clark is it goes to the point I was making. Obama is looking forward. Any names that sort of evoke the past, it makes it harder for him to make that contrast message with McCain.

And I disagree with you on the Pakistan comment. I thought that sounded tough. I think Barack Obama is not against American military force being used overseas to stop al Qaeda. It just has to be in a place where they are, which is Afghanistan and Pakistan.

HOLMES: So Peter, here`s another question. Does it matter? You know, you hear a lot of analysis, the great Washington parlor game, the veepstakes. Do voters care really who`s the No. 2 on the ticket?

FENN: Not so much. I mean, that`s the key question, really, Amy. Is that -- looking at it on the Republican side, as well. They`re voting for a president here. They`re not really voting for a vice president.

And what you want to do is do no harm. You don`t want anybody who`s going to mess things up.

Dan Quayle was a problem. Republican strategists said, "He probably cost us 2 or 3 percentage points in that election." You don`t want that in a tight race.

But I think, you know, the point here is it has to go along with the message. It has to be about change. It has to be about -- about turning the page and doing something different.

Also, though, you want someone in there who is experienced who could step into that job as president the very next day.

PAGLIARULO: Wait. Wait a second. You`re going find this strange, Peter, but I could not disagree with you more.

When it comes to John McCain, I`ve said this on my radio shows constantly, I am not backing John McCain right now. John McCain has got to make the right vice-presidential choice for me, a conservative guy, to vote for him. Otherwise, I`m writing in my mother`s name. My mother would be a better president than John McCain right now unless he picks the right guy.

But having said that, I mean...

FENN: Why would you say that? Because look, your vote...

PAGLIARULO: My mother`s a very smart woman. How dare you cut down my mother?

FENN: I would never -- never even touch your mother. Don`t even go there.

My point on this only is that this guy is going to be president of the United States in a very critical time. And if you don`t like him, you shouldn`t vote for him.

HOLMES: Well, maybe I...

BACKUS: Look at Obama.

HOLMES: Unfortunately, we have to wrap this up. I believe that Joe`s mother is a very smart woman.

PAGLIARULO: She rocks. Great pasta, too.

HOLMES: And I don`t plan to vote for Barack Obama, but if that`s our only choice, perhaps she could be a VP.

PAGLIARULO: All right. Well, let`s break it down. My mother aside, who`s great pasta and would be great on foreign policy, by the way. There are some really viable candidates here for the Democrats, viable candidates that I think would actually grab some Republican eyes and ears, if they made the right choice.

But you made a statement earlier, and I wonder if you could at least expand upon this. I actually said this part. I think that how you look does matter in 2008 America. I think that when you`re out there, if you`re really, really ugly -- I`m going to be honest here. And I don`t think either one of these guys are ugly. Barack Obama is a great looking guy. If he get somebody, you know, as a VP who was also very good looking, you said that you thought John Edwards standing next to him, that was dynamite looking.

HOLMES: Yes. They look like two "GQ" models.

PAGLIARULO: Policy-wise, they`re pretty close together. Is he a viable candidate?

HOLMES: I don`t know if John Edwards is on the short list. He`s not someone who`s being talked about. But when you look at that electoral map, really getting down to it...

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: ... this might be getting down to Ohio, Florida. We`re looking at states that always seem to come up every election. He needs a VP who can help him in those places.

We know that Governor Strickland, he said no way, no how, governor of Ohio. But maybe one of these choices that you brought up, Wes Clark, for example. Another name that`s being floated is Tom Daschle.

PAGLIARULO: That`s a bad choice.

HOLMES: He went down in defeat in South Dakota.

PAGLIARULO: A lot of negatives here.

HOLMES: Yes.

PAGLIARULO: A lot of negatives here. Kathleen Sebelius is being talked about a lot, the Kansas governor. Why is she so looked at? Why -- she`s a family in politics, right? Her name extends over generations.

HOLMES: And also Kansas. You`re talking again about a red state.

PAGLIARULO: Red state.

HOLMES: May be able to turn that red state blue. And also a woman. You have those women that supported Hillary Clinton that would like to see a woman on the ticket. So if not Hillary, possibly Kathleen. I don`t know how the voters feel about it, but they might be able to switch their loyalty.

PAGLIARULO: As Glenn likes to say, you can`t recover until you hit bottom. Well, that`s bad news for the GOP as former House majority leader, Tom DeLay says his party isn`t there yet. Is the road ahead a long one for the Republicans?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAGLIARULO: Hi, welcome back. Joe Pags along with Amy Holmes.

And you know, we want to talk about the GOP. The Republican structure has just crumbled, and you and I were talking about this before the show, Amy. The reason why this happened is because so many people believed the PR from the Democrat side. That`s my opinion anyway.

The Democrats went after the Republicans: "This is a problem, this is no good. Things aren`t good. Is you`re life good? Your life isn`t any -- even if your life is good, you know, trying to convince you that you it wasn`t.

And that PR campaign worked big time in the 2006 midterm elections. Now going into 2008 general election, Republicans have a major problem here. Tom DeLay is out in front. Tom DeLay, who I think is partially to blame for the GOP structure breaking down.

Where are you on this? What do you think happened to the Republicans? And can the Republicans rebuild it?

HOLMES: Well, Republicans helped Democrats when they were spending like drunken sailors. So for Tom DeLay to be saying that the GOP is falling apart, I think he needs to take his share of the blame there.

I think Republicans, they need to get back to core conservative values. They can`t be Democrat light, because if you want a Democrat, you`ll vote for a Democrat.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: They have to offer a real contrast, a real alternative. They need to get back to smaller government, individual liberty, protecting individual property. They need to get back to why we are for smaller government that whole message. And I think they`ll do a lot better. Maybe not this time around. Not looking good.

PAGLIARULO: Yes. I think it`s looking good for the presidential election, to be honest with you. But as far as -- as far as Congress, I don`t think so. I think you`re right about that. What`s interesting is you mentioned drunken sailors. They were spending money like it was never going to end.

And they became very much like Democrats. Now they`re acting like Democrats. And when the Democrats get in, people think there`s going to be a change, when in reality it`s going to be much of the same times eight.

HOLMES: Well, I think another place where you talk about the PR, Republicans have not been good at reminding the American people and the voter who has been in charge of the House and the Senate for the past two years.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: It`s been Democratic leadership. And they haven`t gotten done -- we`re still dealing with these gas prices. Nothing has been done there.

You have Democrats, you know, going off on these wild chases with oil executives and not really bringing down the price of gas. So Republicans need to drive that point home.

But you know what else? Let`s face it. There is an unpopular president sitting in the White House. And the public blames him for a lot of what`s going on right now.

PAGLIARULO: And unpopular president who has ties to oil who people want to blame for the oil, although he didn`t do it. You`re right: the Congress has been Democratic, and gas prices two years ago were what? They weren`t $4.50 a gallon.

HOLMES: What`s fascinating about that, too, is that approval ratings of the Congress, I mean, those`re hitting the rock bottom.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: But for some reason, the public doesn`t blame Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. They blame the Republicans.

PAGLIARULO: And they`re believing -- they`re believing what they hear over and over. I`ll use this as an example.

Barack Obama right now is running on what? Four more years of Bush. If you, in fact, elect John McCain, you get four more years of Bush, which, by the way if you had a gun to my head today and said Barack Obama or George W. Bush, I`d give him another term. And I honestly do.

So -- but he`s going to keep on pounding that, pounding that, pounding that until people say, "Oh, man, I just don`t want four more years of Bush."

People call my radio shows and say, "Please don`t give me four more years of Bush," only because Barack Obama is saying it. How is it that the era of Reagan, the Republicans were the great PR people. They were the great people who could really make you believe where they came from and stand behind their words.

How did the Democrats get that away from them?

HOLMES: Well, I think you have a lot of help with the media being about to -- excuse me, advancing. The media advancing, advancing this three more years of Bush line.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: But, you know, I`ve been in Washington a long time. And I`ve heard Republicans complain, complain that Democrats, they out-PR them, out- media them every day. And where they have their strength is with their people on the ground, their troops, evangelicals, all those constituency bases, constituencies that overwhelm the media message.

OLBERMANN: And there`s more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- if they would have stuck to them, but they didn`t stick to them on immigration, not on gas prices, not on small government, any of that.

HOLMES: Yes.

OLBERMANN: Very smart. I like hanging out with Amy.

HOLMES: Thank you. You`re not bad either.

OLBERMANN: Hey, thanks.

Coming up right here, Supreme Court Justice Hillary Clinton? Scary thought for sure. But you never know. Especially if Obama wins the White House. We`ll explain right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAGLIARULO: Coming up right here, as our nation`s economy continues to struggle, hard-working Americans are finding it harder and harder to save money, especially those living on a fixed income.

So how does one save for retirement on these tough times? Ben Stein stops by with his suggestions in just a bit.

But first, unless you`ve been living under a rock, you know that Senator Barack Obama has beaten Senator Hillary Clinton in the race to become the likely Democratic nominee for president. Now we get speculation about what role she`s going to play in an Obama administration.

Amy Holmes is back with me.

You know, Amy, this is interesting, because she`s got 18 million people who voted for her.

HOLMES: Indeed.

PAGLIARULO: That is a ton of people. He can`t turn his back on those people. My radio shows in Houston and San Antonio every day, I get callers calling to say, "I supported Hillary. I`m mad at what Barack Obama did to her. I am not going to vote for him. I`m going to vote for McCain."

How does he possibly rally those 18 million? He`s got to do something for her, right?

HOLMES: Well, they`ve got to be talking about something for her to do in his administration, whether that`s being a senator, staying in the Senate and leading health care reform, for example.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: You hear ideas floating around, Supreme Court justice, Senate majority leader. I don`t see either one of those things happening.

PAGLIARULO: Good. I hope you`re right.

HOLMES: I mean, is Harry Reid just going to step aside and say, "Oh, Hillary, I`m really sorry about that election. Here, take my job"?

PAGLIARULO: Yes. No.

HOLMES: I don`t think so. But something that strikes me about this is, you know, Democrats complain about Hillary`s entitlement mentality.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: Well, it`s Democrats who gave it to her. Who would have guessed that a first lady who had never won elected office would be encouraged to run for the Senate -- run for the Senate from a state she never lived in.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

HOLMES: And then from there to be running for president of the United States. We didn`t see John Kerry telling Democratic Party in 2004, you know, I got, what, over 55 million votes.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: I deserve to be a leader of this party. No. He lost and he...

PAGLIARULO: They shoved him aside. Yes.

HOLMES: They shoved him aside. I also think maybe Barack Obama is floating this around to keep her supporters on his camp or try to woo them.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, you know what? At the end of the day, he`s got to do something for her whether Supreme Court justice, please, no, vice presidential candidate, please, yes. Because then you`ll lose. He`s got to do something. I heard secretary of state. So have you. If he doesn`t do something, a real overture to her, that I`m propping up Hillary, I believe her, maybe he grabs a hold of one of her causes. You`ve heard this do, right?

HOLMES: He`s got to do it. I mean, those are 18 million voters. Let`s face it: They basically split the Democratic Party in half.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: And she even by her own calculation, she says that she won the popular vote in the Democratic primary. To keep the party together for the sake of unity and beating John McCain in November, he`s going to have to give her a fairly prominent role, both in the campaign and promise something when the campaign is over.

PAGLIARULO: Hold that thought. Joining us now again is our political panel, Kenneth Vogel, senior reporter for Politico; Laura Schwartz, a political analyst and former special assistant to the Clinton administration. Laura, I`m so sorry. And Chris Wilson, Republican strategist and CEO of Wilson Research Strategies.

Laura, you`re so easy to pick on because I like you that much. Look, 18 million voters here, 18 million votes for Hillary Clinton. And you know what? John McCain, if he`s got any intelligence at all, and he does, his people will go after these voters, because they are ripe for the picking right now. Do you agree or disagree that he can get them?

LAURA SCHWARTZ, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I don`t think he can get them. I`ll tell you why.

Just in the last week Barack Obama went from five points ahead of McCain among women in America to 13 points ahead of McCain in women. And that`s because the more these women get to know John McCain, they find out he`s anti-choice, he`s pro war. There are things on his agenda that simply do not match -- even those women in the Democratic Party that voted for Hillary Clinton.

Amy just mentioned, you know, 18 million voters. That`s a lot. And it almost split the Democratic Party in half. But they`re still Democrats.

And as Hillary Clinton said throughout, and I really praise her for this, that hey if you think there`s differences between me and Barack Obama, wait until the general campaign. There are for more differences with John McCain. I think that`s what we`re seeing.

Barack Obama has got to work at getting those voters hands down. When he`s out there this week and next in the coming weeks, all the way through November, he has got to reach out to their voters and talk to Hillary`s voters, whether they`re the white, the blue collar, the women, and really talk about what he`s going to do for them. He`s got to earn their vote.

HOLMES: I agree with you he has to earn their vote. But you`re picking a very specific statistic, and that is the female vote. What about those white working-class voters that he did so poorly with them and that have been open to the Republican message?

Let`s talk about those Reagan Democrats that Barack Obama -- he like looked down his nose at that when he made that statement in San Francisco, referring to guns and religion.

Now getting off -- taking off the talking points, you know, supporting the Democratic nominee if you were advising John McCain what would you tell him to do to try to get some of those potential McCain Democrats?

PAGLIARULO: She doesn`t advise John McCain. Come on.

SCHWARTZ: First of all, I`m independent, and I`m not the talking points girl, Amy. But I do believe that Barack Obama can get those women for the specific reasons I just said.

As far as blue collar workers, also said, he`s going to have to earn their vote. He`s dong a forum today on credit cards. He`s going to be talking about the economy in the sense that I believe both Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton can help him work at.

When you go into those smaller rural areas where Hillary did exceptionally well at. And she will be an advocate for him, an asset, both for the Barack Obama campaign and for her own political career.

PAGLIARULO: I got to jump in here. And I want to bring Chris in, because Chris is as independent as you are.

Hey, Chris, so if you`re in the John McCain camp and you`re taking a look at what`s going on with Hillary Clinton, first of all, you like that the Democrats were split down the middle just about. You got 18 million potential voters here. John McCain is more of a centrist, if not liberal Republican. And he`s got to be chomping at the bit, no?

CHRIS WILSON, WILSON RESEARCH STRATEGY: Well, he is. And there`s a few things here. To Laura`s point about the bounce Obama got, that`s to be expected. When a candidate wins a nominee, they get a bounce.

And in fact, if you look, historically, Obama`s bounce is actually less than you would have expected over time.

Second, you look at the Hillary Clinton voters coming out of these primaries. You have, for a minimum of 1 in 7 to as many as 40 percent in states like Kentucky and West Virginia said they would vote for John McCain over Barack Obama.

PAGLIARULO: Right.

WILSON: I mean, that`s a problem that he has not fixed. He has to have Hillary Clinton involved in this campaign to get it fixed. But I think you`re as likely to see that happen as you are to see Donald Trump and Rosie O`Donnell go do their own TV show.

HOLMES: I would...

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: ... those two folks. They might actually get together and do that show.

Ken, a question to you. What is the likelihood of Barack Obama putting Hillary Clinton on his ticket?

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: I think it`s a little bit more likely than Donald Trump and Rosie O`Donnell having a TV show.

PAGLIARULO: Only a little.

VOGEL: But not a whole lot more likely. And here`s why.

Though she would definitely bring the demographic appeal that Obama had trouble with -- you know, the white working-class voters, Hispanic, women -- she would also bring a tremendous sort of a polarizing influence that would put off moderates and independents.

Obama can find a vice-presidential nominee who would appeal to those same demographics without having that kind of baggage. And that`s what I think he`ll try to do.

HOLMES: And Ken, you know, reporting and hearing the scuttlebutt on the ground, would Obama really want the Clintons down the hall were he to arrive in the White House? Does he want the baggage parked in the vice president`s office?

VOGEL: Well, it`s not only that, you know, the theoretical possibilities of what happens when -- if he`s elected, but rather what happens on the campaign trail. You look at Bill Clinton again, arguably did more harm than good for his wife`s campaign. There`s no way that Bill Clinton is going to be silenced or leashed during an Obama-Clinton presidential campaign. That`s another thing they have to consider.

PAGLIARULO: Ken, I want to thank you right now, because we might lose your satellite window, actually. Thank you for taking the time.

Laura, back to you. OK, as an independent who leans left, I`ll call you that, if you don`t mind.

SCHWARTZ: That`s good, that`s good.

PAGLIARULO: OK. What do you want him to do with Hillary Clinton? Do you want her to be the vice-presidential nominee? Do you want her to be a Supreme Court justice, secretary of state? Do you care? Does it matter? She`s got to be involved somehow, right?

SCHWARTZ: I think she actually does. Especially in the campaign, you know, before he`s elected, they just have to focus on the now to get him elected. And as you said, she really needs to do that both to rehab her legacy as well as to promote Barack Obama.

I do not think that she should be on a ticket, because when you look at the last 15 months of the campaign, Barack Obama has been consistent with the message whereas he`s changed and she`s not. She ran as the inevitable. She ran as the, you know, incumbent. Those things didn`t work for her, especially among Republicans out there that may change their party and those all important independents. They will decide this election.

So I think having her go back to the Senate and be an advocate. Now, she won`t get majority leader because there`s two more senior people ahead of her to go after -- Harry Reid is up in a few years. And -- but she could. I mean, my gosh, lifelong senator. Look at Ted Kennedy. What an amazing impact she could have, even if she just goes back to the Senate.

HOLMES: Here`s a question for Chris. Just this last weekend I was having lunch with a McCain campaign adviser, and he was saying that they thank they`re lucky stars that Democrats got Barack Obama and not Hillary Clinton, that she`s a far more formidable candidate than a lot of Republicans want to admit. Do you think her being on the ticket could actually be a tougher ticket?

WILSON: I do, actually, think it would be a tougher ticket. I think Laura is right in her point that he can`t have...

PAGLIARULO: Sitting there agreeing with Laura Schwartz. Don`t even.

WILSON: I`ll tell you, Obama can`t have her on the ticket because he was about change, and she was about the inevitable. But then at the end, she`s not. But it`s the reason why Obama is going to lose and McCain is going to win.

Because at the end, Hillary Clinton became about fighting for the white middle class. At the end of the day, those voters are not going to go back to Barack Obama, because he will not have her as a major part of the campaign. And they`re not going to come back, because they`ve already rejected him. That`s why in the end John McCain is going to win this election.

PAGLIARULO: I`m almost out of time, Chris. I`ve got to ask you very quickly. What if John McCain grabs Joe Lieberman? Does he get a better chance at Hillary`s voters? But does he have a better chance of winning with a conservative base?

WILSON: You know, that`s a -- really, a double-edged sword if there ever was one. I would say, all in all, it`s a net plus but just barely.

PAGLIARULO: All right. Thank you very much. That`s Chris and Laura. And we thanked Ken before he took off. We appreciate your knowledge, all three of you.

Amy and I will be right back. And coming up right here, gas prices continue to hurt us all. But now some concerns about what impact the continued drain on our wallets will have on our retirement. Ben Stein stops by to explain. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAGLIARULO: All right, gas prices. I get it. It now costs less to take my entire family to the all-you-can-eat fire-grilled shrimp special at Red Lobster, yum, than it does to fill up my SUV, which I love so much. And at least with the Red Lobster deal I get dessert.

But what about retirees, older Americans like maybe your mom and dad who are living on a fixed income and simply can`t adjust their budgets for the skyrocketing prices?

Ben Stein is the creator of "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" as well as the chairperson of the National Retirement Planning Coalition.

Ben, listen, along with Amy Holmes, welcome to the program.

Wondering, why are Baby Boomers crying now? Isn`t it kind of late in the game?

BEN STEIN, AUTHOR, "EXPELLED": Well, they better do some crying sometime. And now would be better than later.

What they`ve got to do is start saving immediately. And for the people who are older than Baby Boomers, who genuinely are on a fixed income, they`re going to have to go without something. I mean, there`s nothing that`s going to be done about these high gasoline prices in the short run. So they`re going to have to do something that costs less in order to put gas in the tank.

The Baby Boomers got to start saving right now in variable annuities, stocks, mutual funds, ETFs. But I think I`ll do it tonight, right now.

HOLMES: Ben, I understand that you did a survey examining this, Baby Boomers compared to their parent and where they stand. What did you find?

STEIN: It`s a hilarious story. The Baby Boomers save less, have less discipline, have less sense about money but they`re expect they`re going to live better. I mean, that`s the peculiar thing.

Why do they think they`re going to live better if they don`t have good sense financially? They`ve got to learn the old-fashioned values of thrift and forbearance and that will get them through.

But to think you can spend all you have now, not provide for the future and somehow a miracle will come along and give you a home on the golf fairway, it`s just not going to happen.

PAGLIARULO: And according to the survey, Ben, it seems as though they`re blaming their parents. Their parents didn`t teach them well enough. Are they going blame the public school system, too?

HOLMES: Wall Street (ph) was wrong about it this time.

STEIN: It`s exactly like my son or my wife and my son, who complain he doesn`t have any work habits because we were too kind. I mean, this is the attitude that people have. They`ve got to do it themselves. They can`t blame anybody else. Nobody is there to rescue them. There is no magic wand. There is no magic bullet.

They have got step up to the plate, start saving, going without, doing things that are going to provide them with the livelihood when they`re too old to work. They`ve got to do it.

HOLMES: Ben, what does this mean, then, when it comes to reforming Social Security? What about, you know, raising retirement ages, higher taxes on Social Security? What does that mean for the rest of us who are going to be paying for them?

STEIN: That means that people that have high incomes are going to be paying a great, great deal more in Social Security taxes.

If they take the cap off Social Security tax bases, it can be a staggering blow to people who have very high incomes. I think Obama is planning, if he wins, to only take off the cap up to something like a million dollars. But I mean, that`s 6 percent of a million dollars. That`s $60,000 added tax. It`s a fair amount to most people. It`s going to be a real blow.

But even that is not going to be enough. Most people only get about 25 to 29 percent of their livelihood when they retire from Social Security. They`ve got to have their own savings. Again, there`s nobody there to do it for you. You`ve got to do it yourself.

PAGLIARULO: I`ve got to ask you about these gas prices. They were completely out of control. It`s $4.05 a gallon, the last time I checked today. And that`s just the national average. In some places it`s over $5 a gallon.

STEIN: It`s $5.25 in Beverly Hills.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, it`s ridiculous. OK. So $5.25 a gallon. Some people say, "You know what? This might be a good thing. If the gas price got up to $10, maybe -- just maybe -- American ingenuity would kick in, right?"

STEIN: Maybe. I think the price system will fix it all.

But you`ve got -- the problem is we`ve got the legislature aimed at Congress standing in the way and saying you can`t drill here, you can`t drill there. China can drill off the coast of Florida, but America can`t.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, it is.

STEIN: You`ve got the legislative thing. You can`t build new refineries, cannot change oil, shale and coal into oil, cannot do any of the things that would solve the problem. They have got their foot on the oxygen tube that is feeding America.

HOLMES: And Ben, you`re an economist. Explain to me how taxing this windfall profit business, how that actually lowers the prices at the pump.

STEIN: It doesn`t lower them at all. It`s just a way of expressing and ventilating the envy that a lot of people have for the oil companies.

And yet, the oil companies are us. The oil companies are us. They`re not some cabal of Texas, right-wing lunatics. They`re American retirees. Those are the people who own the oil companies, American retirees. The people who work with the oil company are by and large Americans.

Only one or two executives there are highly paid per company. It`s just a ridiculous idea to attack the oil companies. It`s like shooting ourselves.

PAGLIARULO: Yes.

HOLMES: So is there anything that we can do in terms of policy to bring the prices down? I mean, you know, I hear the argument that you have the oil speculators that are driving the prices up, that you have China and India that are increasing demand on oil, and it`s really not American demand of oil. What can be done at the legislative level?

STEIN: Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

PAGLIARULO: That`s exactly what`s being done. Nothing.

STEIN: Nothing can be done in the short run.

In the long run, we`re going to literally run out of oil. And if we don`t start drilling everywhere we possibly can and start converting coal and shale and -- into oil.

It`s bad now. Think what it`s going to be like in five years, in 10 years, in 25 years. It`s going to be like "Mad Max." It`s going to be civil war over gasoline if we don`t start acting now. And get the environmentalists off our necks.

PAGLIARULO: Well, here is the problem. If you polled environmentalists right now, Ben, I guarantee you they would say, "All right. Let`s start drilling somewhere, because you know what? Argentina - - or Venezuela, I should say -- China and Cuba are going to drill 90 miles off the coast of Florida.

If Canada wants to they can probably go and get what`s hiding up there in Alaska. And we`re going to be buying it from at what ever price they want to give it to us. And then we`ve got politicians in Washington saying, "Let`s go ahead and sue OPEC to make them raise production." Well, we`re sitting on oil.

STEIN: The behavior of our government about oil is just a mixture of envy and insanity. It doesn`t make any sense at all. And it doesn`t help anyone. All it does is hurt -- there has got to be some sense talked into people.

I saw Maxine Waters, who represents the district near me in Los Angeles, saying she wanted to nationalize the oil companies. That`s a recipe for outright catastrophe.

PAGLIARULO: Yes, absolutely. Ben Stein, thank you very much.

Coming up here, the world-famous Chrysler building is reportedly for sale. I`ll tell you who`s willing to shell out $800 million for the storied skyscraper right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAGLIARULO: Not surprising, with the dollar reaching record lows, foreign investment in this country has escalated. What is surprising is the sort of things our overseas friends are buying.

News today that the Abu Dhabi Investment Council is negotiating a deal to buy a majority stake of the landmark Chrysler building here in New York City.

You know, I don`t want to come off politically incorrect here. I honestly don`t. But bottom line for me is it`s fun to say Abu Dhabi, and I don`t want them to buy it. I just don`t want them to buy this building.

HOLMES: There are things that just have symbolic value. I don`t know if I can get worked up over this, exactly, but you remember the port deal, the Dubai port deal.

PAGLIARULO: Oh, yes.

HOLMES: And the security implications. I`m sure this has gone, you know, through the chain, and it`s perfectly safe for America, for Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi.

PAGLIARULO: Abu Dhabi. Kind of fun.

HOLMES: Come on. The Chrysler building. But come on. It`s a part of the American iconography.

PAGLIARULO: It is. And it`s part of the skyline. But when you get to New York City, you say that is uniquely American. And how can you say that if it`s uniquely owned by Abu Dhabi, which again is very -- I think Abu Dhabi, those were lyrics in a Neil Sedaka song back in the `60s.

HOLMES: Actually, the Chrysler building is referenced in "Annie" in "It`s a Hard Knock Life".

PAGLIARULO: Are we going to sing that one now?

HOLMES: Not tonight..

PAGLIARULO: This has been a very interesting show. You know, we had a political panel on that was very, very intelligent, which is the only kind that we like to get.

HOLMES: I like them done.

PAGLIARULO: So we could just bork (ph) them over?

But the whole Hillary Clinton thing versus Michelle Obama thing. I don`t know if we got answers here, but we certainly worked -- we worked a bunch of different angles on this. At the end of the show here, Barack Obama, Michelle is going to keep on going back into the distance, is your opinion?

HOLMES: I think she`ll recede into the distance. And I think that the media is already setting this up, that if you attack Michelle Obama, you`re a mean Republican, the kind that, you know, kicks dogs and starves babies.

And let`s remember that, initially, these attacks were coming from Democrats.

PAGLIARULO: Interesting you brought that up. Hillary Clinton...

HOLMES: This is a Democratic primary, by the way. It was pro Hillary, pro Hillary bloggers that were advancing all this stuff. Republicans are sitting back and watching the show, eating the popcorn but, you know, be prepared that the media is going to be bringing...

PAGLIARULO: Although you may just saw this statement earlier before the show, that it would be stupid because her foreign policy is very different from his foreign policy. I still think Barack Obama...

HOLMES: To Hillary Clinton.

PAGLIARULO: ... will look at Hillary Clinton in his administration, potentially, as a secretary of state. What do you think?

HOLMES: There`s a possibility.

PAGLIARULO: No way she`s the VP.

HOLMES: No way that she`s the VP, but I think she has more longevity and more stature being in the Senate. She could become, you know, the great statesman of the Senate and be reforming or changing all the American health care.

PAGLIARULO: All right. Unbelievably, we`re just about out of time. Really had a great time hanging out with Amy. We`re back tomorrow. Glenn will be back next Monday. But make sure you tune in tomorrow night right here. Joe Pags, signing off for now.

HOLMES: How about another one of these?

PAGLIARULO: One of these little fist pumps before we get out of here.

HOLMES: Amy Holmes signing off.

PAGLIARULO: Out of here from New York. Have a good night.

HOLMES: Good night.

END