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Glenn Beck
Can Either Candidate Save Economy?; Not all Hillary Supporters Back Obama
Aired July 07, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE PAGLIARULO, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, no end in sight for soaring gas prices. Average Americans are suffering, so what are these two guys doing to help? We`ll have some answers.
Plus, the fight between Clinton and Obama might be over, but the battle between their supporters is just beginning. We`ll explain why some Hillary loyalists are sending money to McCain.
And it`s official, A-Rod`s wife files for divorce. Is the Material Girl to blame for this major league court fight?
All this and more tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO: Hello, America. I`m Joe Pagliarulo, Joe Pags, sitting in for the vacationing Glenn Beck. This week, the presumptive nominee focused on the economy. Today Republican John McCain held a town hall meeting in Denver, Colorado, where small business was the focus, while Democrat Barack Obama was in St. Louis for a discussion on economic security for American families.
As the price of just about everything continues to rise, do either of these guys have the plan to save the day?
Joining us this weekend is CNN political contributor, Amy Holmes.
Amy, it`s always great to have you here.
AMY HOLMES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Great to see you.
PAGLIARULO: Love talking to you before the show; love talking to you during the show. We`ll talk after the show, too.
HOLMES: Terrific.
PAGLIARULO: The economy. John McCain made the biggest blunder I heard anybody who`s running for any office make not very long ago. I think he thought the focus was going to be the Iraq war, when you and I both know the focus is the economy. People are paying double what they paid in gas prices six months or a year ago.
HOLMES: Right.
PAGLIARULO: He said, "I don`t know anything about the economy." Dumb. How does he overcome that?
HOLMES: How does he overcome that? Well, he does it by what he did today, which is really focusing in on small businesses and, as a Republican candidate who supports George Bush`s tax cuts to stimulate the economy.
But another blunder that he made in the Republican primaries, when he went to Michigan
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
HOLMES: And he told voters, "Your jobs aren`t coming back."
PAGLIARULO: I couldn`t believe this.
HOLMES: This isn`t what Americans want to hear.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
HOLMES: But I think there`s a danger that we can talk ourselves into a recession.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
HOLMES: We`re not in a recession. A recession is two periods, two quarters of negative growth. That`s not happening. Now, gas prices are going up. Food prices are going up.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
HOLMES: But the idea that America is actually contracting isn`t true, so we need to stay optimistic that we`re headed into...
PAGLIARULO: If we say recession, recession, recession, if we hear recession, recession, recession, we start -- we start receding.
HOLMES: Right.
PAGLIARULO: We start backing off from going out and buying stuff, and we`re hiding money under the mattress. So we`re actually -- they could either add to it, or they could pull us out of it. Obama wants to say there is a recession; McCain wants to say there isn`t one. And they both have a bigger, better plan.
HOLMES: What we need to focus on is economic insecurity.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
HOLMES: Let`s face it. Americans, they don`t have the same job for the rest of their lives as they used to.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
HOLMES: They`re going to jump from place to place. We also have a housing market where people are seeing the values of the homes crashing. Their stock market values are going down. So there`s a lot of insecurity out there, but I think we need to be careful before we start saying the sky the falling.
PAGLIARULO: OK. You`ve heard our opinion. Let`s bring in Stephen Moore now. He writes editorials on economics, the "Wall Street Journal."
Stephen, glad to have you here. Are we just full of it or are we kind of onto what`s going on here?
STEPHEN MOORE, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": I was listening to your discussion, and you know, Amy`s -- that`s absolutely correct. We`re not in a recession right now, but, boy, it sure feels like one, doesn`t it? I mean, when you`re paying $4.29 a gallon for gasoline and you go to the grocery store and just about everything from, you know, lemons to fruits and vegetables to Rice Krispies costs more. It`s really tough times.
And then the jobs report just came out last Thursday, showing another 60,000 jobs lost. So I think a recession is coming, and it may be here now. You know, these statistics are lagging. They don`t tell us we`re into a recession until we`ve already been in one.
HOLMES: So, Stephen, what`s causing these economic conditions? Why are gas prices going up? And we know that involves food prices, but what`s the -- what are the fundamentals on the ground?
MOORE: You know, I think the source of the problem goes back to what happened three or four years ago when we started to lose control of the dollar. And as you`ve seen, Amy, the dollar has plummeted relative to other currencies, we have seen gold prices rise which is an indication of a falling currency. And that`s one of the reasons we`re paying a high price for gasoline, why food prices are high, and it`s also, I think, a reason why Americans are feeling less optimistic.
I saw a statistic that came out today, a poll: 75 percent of Americans now think we`re in a recession. So, you know, if they pull back on their spending and their consuming when they go to the store, that -- you`re right, Amy, that almost is a self-fulfilling prophecy. We caused the recession we`re trying to avoid.
PAGLIARULO: And let`s go to record here, to say 75 percent of Americans are wrong, even by your -- you know, by your definition, the stock definition. Let me ask you this. Do you think that we`re under economic attack?
And by that I mean you hear Iran saying they`re going to close down the Straits of Hormuz. They`re not going to close down the Straits of Hormuz. Israel may attack Iran. All of that matters when it comes to oil prices. We`re not drilling for our own domestic product whatsoever. OPEC is screwing us. OPEC is not screwing us.
I mean, I have no idea what`s going on, other than to say there are some people around this globe that just hate the US of A. Are we under attack economically right now?
MOORE: We are, but I have a different interpretation of this, Joe. We`re under attack, but I think it`s from the politicians in Washington, not the politicians around the world.
PAGLIARULO: That`s a good point, yes.
MOORE: Look at what`s going on with our federal budget. It is completely out of control. Look at all these unpaid debts: the Social Security debts, the Medicare debts. Now we have an energy crisis that we`ve been talking about. The Congress has declared a moratorium on drilling for new oil. It just doesn`t make any sense. We have to have sensible pro-America, America-first economic policies. And I think this Congress has really failed that.
HOLMES: Which leads me directly to my point. What kind of policies are those? Like, you mentioned the falling dollar. Now that`s a consequence of lowering the interest rates, correct?
MOORE: Yes. I think...
HOLMES: So what politician is going to step up and say we are going to raise interest rates and drive down the value of your house even further?
MOORE: I don`t know what politicians say, but we`ve been saying it for our editorial page for the last year. But there`s more to this, though, Amy. Taxes, listen to what Barack Obama is saying every day. And let`s face it: he`s ahead in the polls. A lot of people think he`s going to be the next president.
What he`s saying is raise taxes on small businesses, raise taxes on capital gains dividends, the stock market. Those are all really negative things. And I agree with you, Amy, we`ve got to make those investment tax cuts permanent to put some more confidence in the American economy right now.
PAGLIARULO: All right. Stephen, listen, we love your insight. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Now for some political insight, let`s turn to Ari Melber, correspondent with "The Nation," and Michael Reagan, radio talk show host and GOP strategist.
Gentlemen, welcome to this discussion. What do you think when you listen to that? Ari, do you think that we`re under -- we`re under economic attack from sources outside of Washington? I would guess that you would think that Washington probably isn`t launching an attack on us?
ARI MELBER, "THE NATION": Well, I think aspects of the Bush administration`s economic policies are coming home to roost. You had a free market fundamentalism. You had an attitude that, basically, everyone could run wild and this would be OK. And it`s not OK; American consumers are hurting.
So sure, I agree with the idea that there`s attacks coming from Washington and really a lack of oversight, a lack of basically fairness. And that`s what you hear Barack Obama talking about in the abstract, saying we`re going to get back in there, we`re going to get in charge of the mortgage industry, we`re going to basically defend regular consumers and regular shareholders who`ve been feeling the brunt of these failed Bush policies.
HOLMES: But Michael, that gets into my point, which is that a lot of this recession and sky-is-falling talk is political. It`s a way to try to indict the Bush policies, indict the Bush administration and tie that around John McCain`s neck. Do you see it that way?
MICHAEL REAGAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You know, it`s always about the economy, stupid. Go back in history. Any election you can remember, it`s always about the economy. And this one`s going to be about the economy, also.
Go back to my father`s administration, when he was running for president. It was about the economy. Look at the Bush administration, it`s about the economy.
And they always try to tie it, I guess, to these Republicans in office. They forget that the Congress right now is being controlled by the Democrats. They have been there for going on two years. What have they done? They`ve done nothing to help the economy, nothing to help the energy crisis, nothing to help the lagging dollar. They`ve done nothing.
It`s as though they want the economy to tank so they can use that to tie it around John McCain to put Barack Obama in place to be the president of the United States of America. They`ve done nothing to help.
PAGLIARULO: And Michael, I think you make an incredible point. And Ari, I want to loft this your way. I mean, the facts are, you know, in 2006, that midterm election, the change was on the way. Happy days are on the way. Here we go, we`re going to sweep out the Republicans and more money for everybody, and gas prices are going to plummet to -- you know, 50 cents. What happened was gas prices almost doubled since then.
I think this is a do-nothing Congress the way it was before the 2006 midterm election. What did they accomplish and how did they hold on to their seats this election knowing -- look, the American people aren`t stupid. They know who`s in power right now, and it`s not President Bush.
MELBER: I have got beef with this Congress too. I don`t know who doesn`t unless you haven`t been paying attention.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
MELBER: But with regard to the economic issues, yes, they did pass the stimulus. They did act on a bipartisan basis, led by Democrats, and Americans got some checks in the mail.
PAGLIARULO: I`m still waiting for mine, by the way.
MELBER: Me, too. But I don`t think anyone would suggest -- certainly not me -- that that solved all these problems. But they did do that, and you have Barack Obama saying that he wants a 15 billion -- excuse me, a $50 billion stimulus and to do tax relief for seniors earning under $50,000 a year. So there is a bridge here between some of what the Democratic Congress has done and what Barack Obama is promising to do.
But I wouldn`t defend their record. They`ve been bad on Iraq. They haven`t brought change on a host of issues and, of course, what you`re going to hear Democrats say is on the economy, you have to bring it back to energy policy and back to foreign policy. You`re spending a lot of money overseas on a failed war, and that money could be invested here at home.
HOLMES: But Ari, what do you say to the McCain argument -- I just got a press release today from them -- that Barack Obama actually voted twice against middle-class tax cuts, the very thing -- the very thing that he`s campaigning on right now. People earning as little as $32,000 would see their taxes go up if you were to follow Barack Obama`s voting record.
MELBER: Well, look, I think it`s fair to look at policy records. You`re going to find instances where both candidates have done one or the other thing on taxes, especially in the Congress, you know, where I used to work as an aide, there`s literally hundreds of roll call votes on these issues.
What you`re going to hear the Obama campaign say back is, look, on the fundamental questions, John McCain has completely reversed himself. He was the only Republican to vote against the Bush tax cuts in 2001. Now he says he`s not only for them, but for extending them. And he`s never articulated a strong explanation for his change of heart.
So there`s also a character question of whether voters can trust John McCain.
PAGLIARULO: Ari, I know what you`re saying -- Michael, hold on a second. Hold on a second, because Ari, we could bring up all sorts of fundamental misjudgments by Barack Obama. We just don`t have the time for it.
Michael, I want to throw this at you. My radio shows are in San Antonio, Texas, and in Houston, Texas, every day. And as much as there are local stories going on, what people want to talk about is how badly they`re being hit at the gas pump.
Which one of these two candidates has the better plan for actually giving us some relief? I don`t think either one does to be perfectly honest with you, but if I`m going to vote only on the economy, who do I have to go with?
REAGAN: Who do you have to go with? I think you have to go with John McCain. John McCain wants to keep the tax cuts in place. He`s now calling for, what, nuclear power. He said something about 45 nuclear power plants. I`d like to see one nuclear power plant right now. The environmentalists, the Democrats have stopped the energy policy in this country for too long. It`s time to start drilling. It`s time to start taking care of American.
Let me tell you something else, give you an idea. The USS Ronald Reagan was just deployed bout five weeks ago last year. It will save the American taxpayers $579 billion. Why? Because there`s nuclear power. That is the debt cost in dollars to the American people because it goes nuclear instead of gasoline.
PAGLIARULO: That`s an amazing number. It`s an amazing number. Ari, Michael, listen, guys. Stay where you are. We`re going to come back and talk about some more stuff. Thank you very much for joining us on this.
So we walk away from this and we go, all right, we want to start drilling. We want to figure out what OPEC is or isn`t doing. What`s Hugo Chavez going to do? Who`s drilling off the coast of Florida? Why aren`t we getting the oil out of ANWR or from North and South Dakota?
And at the end of the day, when we`re done tonight, when we lay our heads to rest, we`re still going to be paying way too much for gasoline. We have no answers.
HOLMES: We have no answers, because we know that the demand for gasoline is so enormous coming from a developing country like China, India, et cetera, that Americans, you know, they say, like the good old days, they`re never coming back when it comes to oil prices.
And another thing, how much do presidents really influence economic policy? That`s something that`s highly debatable. What they can do is set that policy. Small businesses, for example, they have 75 percent of the jobs in country.
PAGLIARULO: All right. We`re going to be back. Listen, we`re just getting rolling here.
Up next, some big donors, some of Hillary`s biggest donors, are still holding onto their wallets when it comes to Obama`s candidacy. Will John McCain end up benefiting from that tension?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: Coming up right here, controversy surrounding a plan to have Christian-themed license plates in South Carolina. Is it a simple profession of faith -- yes -- or a constitutional violation? No.
The state`s lieutenant governor says he`s betting his political future on this, and we will talk to him right here a little bit later on.
First, Barack Obama may have beaten rival Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries, but he hasn`t won over any of her top supporters, the big money-generating Hill-raisers. According to "The Wall Street Journal," dozens of the most influential Clinton supporters are still steamed by the way Hillary Clinton was treated during the primaries and are withholding their support for Obama until they see what role Hillary Clinton is going to play in the general-election campaign. Others have even gone so far as to make donations to campaign of Republican John McCain.
Amy Holmes is here with me and, in Chicago, it`s Laura Schwartz, a friend of ours, a political analyst and former special assistant to the Clinton administration.
Laura, always great to have you here.
LAURA SCHWARTZ, POLITICAL ANALYST: Great to be back, guys. Hi, Amy. Hey, Joe.
PAGLIARULO: OK. So we`re going to start with you, Laura, and I got to know, when you -- on my radio shows, I talk about a lot, because I`m kind of a dumb guy. I have to just take the experience from my callers. Right?
On my radio shows, they really are still fervently against Barack Obama, because they feel as though he was a sexist against Hillary Clinton. There were back -- there were back-room attacks on Hillary Clinton. They took down the campaign unduly. It wasn`t fair; it was disrespectful.
What are you hearing? What are you feeling? And do you really think that the Democratic base will eventually say, "All right, we have to support this guy. Who else do we have?"
SCHWARTZ: I think that is what will happen in the end. I mean, I grew up in Wisconsin, Joe, and with them, you`ve got religion, and you`ve got the Green Bay Packers.
PAGLIARULO: And cheese. You`ve got cheese.
SCHWARTZ: A lot of cheese. But the Bears go and we don`t, you support the Bears, they`re from your conference. And that`s sort of how I see the primaries, OK?
The Hillary supporters really want to win. They wanted Barack Obama to lose. But listen, when it doesn`t happen, you look at your beliefs, you look at your ideals and your passions and the solutions that you were behind under Hillary. And you say, listen, there`s much more than a candidate to an election; it`s those issues. And if Barack Obama is going to carry those forward, I think they`ll end up with him.
Now, over 70 percent of those women voters for Hillary have gone over to Barack Obama. And I`m talking about the voters. There`s still about 300 or 400 Hill raisers. Like you said, a couple of dozen are not yet.
But I think, as we get closer, believe it or not, even though this has been really long, we still have more time before the conventions in late August and then the nomination and then, of course, the general election in November. I think there`s time. But I think both Hillary and Barack Obama have to work hard to get these voters to come over to Barack Obama.
HOLMES: Which brings me -- which brings me to my point. Doesn`t Barack Obama have to actively pursue and woo those voters? I mean CNN has a poll that a third of those voters plan to stay home. These are Hillary supporters. A third of 18 million voters is a lot.
You`ve 54 percent of these voters who say that right now, as of July, they have no plans to vote for Barack Obama. What does Barack Obama have to do to try to persuade them that he`s their guy?
SCHWARTZ: Yes, well, first of all, I got to say, Amy, if these were Republican women or independent, I`d feel the same way. I think it`s an insult to democracy to say just because my candidate didn`t get on the ballot, I`m not going to participate. I really -- I`ve got to tell you, I think that`s wrong.
But now as far as Barack Obama, I think like this week talking about the economy, for example, he should subtitle all of those issues he`s talking about to talk straight to those core women voters of Hillary Clinton about the single moms, to talk about his plan for universal pre-K. When he starts talking about economy and women, let`s talk about equal pay.
And same thing for the seniors, he should extend the tax cuts to those on Social Security just to help them.
So I think it`s interesting. I think there`s a lot of issues out there that he can just keep subtitling to those women.
PAGLIARULO: He can, but he hasn`t so far, and that`s the problem. Right now, he`s going after John McCain, which in most political campaigns, most general-election campaigns, would be the absolute right thing to do.
But he must subtitle -- there must be a subtext of, "Hey, women, here`s why I`m the right guy for you. It`s not because I`m a good speaker, I`m a good-looking guy. It`s because I understand that there were some differences between Hillary Clinton and myself, and I want you to get on my side."
To that end, shouldn`t he also -- and I`m going to stay it -- shouldn`t he also now just go ahead and announce it, that she`s going to be the vice-presidential nominee? Wouldn`t that lock it down?
SCHWARTZ: You know, I think that would lock it down with those voters. But you have to, in political strategy, look at it in two ways. Now the gain of those voters and how many are really left out there versus how many he may alienate with bringing Hillary Clinton on the ticket.
You know, the "New York Times" and the Clintons really unify the Republican Party and the Republican base. So that may not be good strategically, like over the whole thing.
But, how about him talking about her in the cabinet? How about him talking about her taking the lead in health care?
PAGLIARULO: I don`t think it`s enough. I don`t think it`s enough.
SCHWARTZ: You know, and also, being seen on stage with her more is going to be better. They`ve made like five appearances, only one really big one in Unity, New Hampshire, that everybody saw a couple of weeks ago. This Wednesday, it`s interesting. They`re doing three different fund- raisers, and they`re doing it together, Hillary and Barack Obama, with women. So that`s important.
HOLMES: So Barack Obama, looks like he has a lot of work to do. But Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
SCHWARTZ: Thanks, guys.
HOLMES: And...
PAGLIARULO: All right.
HOLMES: And after the break, we`ll be talking about South Carolina and those religious license plates.
PAGLIARULO: As a matter of act, you know what? Coming up, we`ve got Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez, an all-star in the fans` eyes. Not so much in his wife`s. She filed for divorce today, saying A-Rod emotionally abandoned his family. But was it because of a fling with Madonna?
Then, this campaign has seen more flip-flops than the third (ph) aisle at Wal-Mart. Where the candidates once stood, where they stand now, and whether or not we can expect any more chameleon-like campaigning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: New York Yankee Alex Rodriguez has millions of adoring fans. Too bad his wife Cynthia is not one of them. After numerous allegations of affairs and other marital misconduct, C-Rod says that the news of her hubby`s recent relationship with aging pop diva Madonna, who`s 70, well, that was the straw that broke the marriage`s back.
What? She`s not 70?
HOLMES: She`s not anywhere near 70.
PAGLIARULO: She`s 49 years old. She`ll be 50 soon. And she looks 20 years older than that.
HOLMES: Great.
PAGLIARULO: She looks like she`s 14, fine.
HOLMES: A little muscle-ly, a little manly, but she looks great.
PAGLIARULO: A little more muscle-ly than him, some would say. OK. So Alex Rodriguez getting together with Madonna, who`s breaking up with her...
HOLMES: Allegedly.
PAGLIARULO: Allegedly, who`s breaking up with her husband, allegedly. She`s worth $600 million. He`s got a contract for about $300 million.
HOLMES: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: You`ve got a wife here who`s a woman scorned, clearly, who had a baby with him two months ago.
HOLMES: Newborn baby.
PAGLIARULO: And America can`t get enough of this story. What`s your take on this whole thing?
HOLMES: My take on this whole thing, she married an athlete. What were you...
PAGLIARULO: How dare you indict every athlete on earth?
HOLMES: I mean, what a wrong -- the only person, you know, more terrible person is an actor...
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
HOLMES: ... for this sort of thing.
PAGLIARULO: So you`re saying she should have seen this coming?
HOLMES: She should have seen this coming. Don`t we see these stories every day?
Actually, the divorce that I`ve been following that I think what is really juicy is the Christie Brinkley/Peter Cook divorce.
PAGLIARULO: That is an unbelievable story.
HOLMES: Unbelievable. So...
PAGLIARULO: You know what`s the most unbelievable to me about that story? Not to switch away from A-Rod and Madonna, which is still unbelievably salacious and sordid and everything else. But when Peter Cook walked out of the car and walked into the courthouse. He`s like got his glasses on, got his hair all flipped up, "Hey, how are you? Hey, how`s it going? Hey, how are you?"
This guy, man, just talk about just low life? Right? Right?
HOLMES: He was married to Christie Brinkley, one of the most gorgeous women in the world. In the 50s she looked amazing.
PAGLIARULO: She does look amazing.
HOLMES: And look at these women at 50. They look incredible. And then he paid his mistress $300,000 to keep quiet or something?
PAGLIARULO: Three thousand dollars a month for porn on the Internet.
HOLMES: Yes. Unbelievable.
PAGLIARULO: All right, A-Rod is -- Madonna`s heyday was years ago, although she`s still doing great.
HOLMES: She`s kind of...
PAGLIARULO: Don`t get me wrong, absolutely. She can continue -- she`ll continue to succeed.
But the A-Rod thing, he`s the hottest commodity right now in all of baseball. He is the biggest sports star, arguably, on planet earth. When you see this go on after he defended himself and his wife for an obscene shirt to the media, not very long ago, last season at Yankee stadium, he was seen going into with a stripper in Toronto into a hotel.
Like you said, I mean, either she had a choice here. Either realize that he`s the biggest star on earth, that he`s going to be this low-life guy and hang with him.
HOLMES: Like Mrs. Kobe Bryant.
PAGLIARULO: How big will this turn into? Because you`re right. Kobe Bryant`s wife got a $5 million ring.
HOLMES: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: And she stayed, and they made things all better.
HOLMES: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: How bad is this going to get? How long are we going to be following it?
HOLMES: Well, apparently, A-Rod is concerned that it`s going to get really bad, because this, in fact, could affect his endorsements revenue. But if he`s an athlete who is widely scorned by the public for his behavior, that he might not be able to be on the box of Wheaties.
PAGLIARULO: Very interesting. All right. So we`re going to keep an eye on this, obviously. A-Rod is the biggest star out there in baseball right now. And his wife, you feel bad for her. You kind of wonder what the heck is going on.
HOLMES: She`s going to get paid.
PAGLIARULO: She is going to get paid.
Coming up right here, John McCain and Barack Obama have been all over the ideological -- that`s the ideological map lately. Can we pin down where they actually stand on anything? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: South Carolina is planning on issuing Christian-themed license plates for drivers who would like to proclaim their faith. I don`t really see a problem with this, but apparently some do, and it`s causing just a bit of controversy.
We`ll hear from both sides coming up.
But first, for presidential candidates, a winning strategy for the primaries does not always work for the general election. Take Republican John McCain. Having weathered the primaries with leftist center views on immigration and on the environment, he`s steering back across the center line to the right. As for Barack Obama, he headed to the far left to secure the Democratic nomination, but as his campaign looks toward November, he`s heading back toward the center.
Critics call it a good old-fashioned pandering and flip-flopping job, but candidates do it anyway as they try to secure that all-important undecided voter.
Amy Holmes is with me all week. She`s a CNN political contributor, as well as a former speechwriter for Senator Bill Frist.
And you know, we were talking about this earlier, and the analogy I use, which probably wasn`t as good as what you can come up with, was that we`re heading down a highway and these two guys -- I mean, Obama`s sort of in the left lane, and McCain is sort of in the right, the center to the right lane. Obama is coming to the center lane, pushing McCain over to the right lane.
They`re both moving the same direction. Are you surprised by that?
AMY HOLMES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It`s like a right-wing roller derby or something.
PAGLIARULO: Yes, it`s weird. Yes. Are you surprised that Obama`s coming this far to the right, whereas you might think he would go further to the left to really secure his base?
HOLMES: Sure. I`m not surprised that he`s moving to the right. As everybody knows, that the candidates in the general move to the center. But I think something that`s been really misstated about this is that, John McCain, he isn`t moving to the center, he`s moving to the right.
PAGLIARULO: Yes, right.
HOLMES: He`s embracing those conservative principles. He`s for these tax cuts, he`s getting tougher on Gitmo, whereas Barack Obama, he`s moving away from the progressive wing of his party to the center to try to grab those Independent votes. So, you know, judge each candidate as you may, but to say that they`re both moving to the center, that`s not really true.
PAGLIARULO: Albeit not -- you know, she`s not much more center, but Hillary Clinton is more centrist than Barack Obama is, at least voting record-wise. Is he moving that way to start maybe get some of those 18 million voters that wanted Hillary here? If I start, you know, going closer to her stances, not that they`re very far apart, and if I start going more to John McCain, those who have doubts about John McCain might say, well, you know...
HOLMES: Well, that`s right. And Barack Obama, he talks about those Obamacans, Republicans apparently who are going to be voting for him. And maybe there will be a few because his candidacy does offer some interesting and important advances, I think, in American culture.
But I think what`s more interesting is John McCain -- the number of Hillary supporters who are saying that they will either stay home or they`re uncommitted. Only 54 percent of those Hillary voters are saying that they`re planning on voting for Barack Obama. So there`s a lot of room there for John McCain to start wooing them and courting them and possibly using them to get across the finishing lines.
PAGLIARULO: It`s very, very interesting.
OK. Let`s check in once again with Ari Melber, correspondent with "The Nation," and Michael Reagan, radio talk show host and GOP strategist.
Michael, what do you think? OK, so John McCain is moving more conservative and more conservative when truly, I think he`s more of a centrist, left-leaning Republican, so much so that I don`t know if I`m going to vote for him. I might vote for my mother, I might write her name in there.
But for me, I mean, John McCain moving further right, A, will we believe him? And B, is he going to stay there once he gets there?
REAGAN: Well, listen, if he moves to the right and the right shows up and votes for him, yes, he`ll have to stays there.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
REAGAN: We may disagree with him 40 percent of the time when he gets to be president of the United States, but we`re going to disagree with Obama probably 80 to 90 to 100 percent of the time.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
REAGAN: I`m waiting for the Obama ad that`s going to come out next week that he is going to be the third term of George W. Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
REAGAN: I mean, you look at what he`s done lately, I mean, now he`s changed on Iraq, he`s changed on faith-based initiatives, he`s now supporting, I guess, the Supreme Court decision on guns. My goodness gracious, he`s looking more like George Bush than John McCain.
HOLMES: So, Ari, what do you say to that? I mean, you know as well as I do that on the Internet there`s a lot of left wing buzz about Barack Obama`s positioning, centering. Some call it flip-flopping, some say that it`s a cynical, political election-year maneuver. How do you see it?
MELBER: Well, this is one of the great parts of the election we`re having. It`s not going by this normal formula where everyone has to move to the center and take their base for granted. As you said, McCain is doing some different things, that`s his right as a candidate if he thinks that moving to the right wing right now is helpful.
Barack Obama, as you say, has outlined a different position on surveillance. And those people online, I don`t think it`s a matter of left wing. They`re talking about the Fourth Amendment, supporting the Constitution. I would hope that`s an area where...
HOLMES: But wait a minute, Ari -- sure.
MELBER: Well, I would hope that that`s an area where liberals and conservatives can agree, even if you have some differences on the bill itself. They`re saying...
HOLMES: Some differences? There are significant differences.
And let me read to you a quote from Barack Obama in August of 2007. He said that this bill is -- that it`s a get out of jail free card, and he strongly opposed it. He even said that he would filibuster this bill, and now he says he`s going to vote for it.
Is that a -- just a nuance, or is that a straight-out reversal of policy?
MELBER: Well, let me tell you. Yes, Amy, I`m glad you brought it up.
I`ve written about this for TheNation.com. I think he should oppose that bill, and I think that giving a get out of jail free card to the telecoms is wrong when the courts haven`t had a chance to investigate.
Now, to be surprise, he still does oppose that immunity provision. What he`s saying is he is now supporting the larger compromise. And his supporters are making noise on his Web site and elsewhere about it.
But I think this comes back to the fundamental issue in the campaign. I mean, John McCain himself used to be very critical of the Bush administration`s detention policies. Then with the latest Supreme Court ruling. He was finding himself saying something very different and basically going along with a lot of the executive power theories of this president, which are also controversial on the far left and the far right as well.
PAGLIARULO: Ari, I agree with you. I agree with you. They certainly are.
Michael, I want to bring you in here though, and I want to bring this -- it`s a very generic idea that I have about this election.
They`re both flip-flopping. I think Obama`s flip-flopping 3-1 over McCain, but they both are, and McCain is not as good an orator. He`s not as good a communicator.
Barack Obama seems to flip-flop. His grandfather freed the hostages at Auschwitz. And then, you know, throwing his grandmother under the bus. Nothing sticks to this guy. He`s like the Teflon guy. And because his communication ability is so good.
Doesn`t John McCain have to step up and have an advocate, or somebody out there who can really speak to the people and say, look, here`s what I am, here`s what I believe, Barack Obama`s flip-flopping, stop believing the sheen, go ahead and look past the shine and understand that this guy deep down is a socialist? Isn`t that the inherent problem that John McCain has in this election?
MELBER: Come on.
REAGAN: What John`s got to do is he`s got to become warm and fuzzy.
PAGLIARULO: Yes. Can he?
REAGAN: He`s got to lead. And you`re right, he`s got to have somebody out there who`s going to be able to push the buttons for him.
John McCain, one of his worst faults is, is warming up to people. And he`s got to learn to warm up to people. Barack Obama, at this point in time, we may disagree with every policy he has, but he comes across very well because...
PAGLIARULO: He makes you feel good. He makes you feel good, Michael.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: But Michael -- Michael...
REAGAN: John McCain -- John McCain needs to work on that side. But again, John McCain`s winning the battle. When he gets Barack Obama to now admit that he`s going to listen to the generals before he makes a final decision on Iraq, it shows John McCain is leading.
HOLMES: But Michael, 60 percent of voters think that Barack Obama flip-flops, that McCain flip-flops. And what about it? I mean, Barack Obama is going to hit back on offshore drilling. John McCain said he was against it, now he`s for it. Another one is Gitmo, taxes, as Ari brought up.
How does John McCain dodge this flip-flop charge?
REAGAN: But John McCain, at least when he`s flip-flopping, right now if you look at the American public and run the polls, more and more people are saying, we`re going to flip-flop. Maybe we should start drilling in ANWR, I`m tired of paying $5 a gallon.
At least when John McCain flip-flops, he flip-flops to the side where the American people are.
MELBER: What about Iraq?
REAGAN: And they are at this point wise to drill.
MELBER: What about Iraq?
MELBER: On Iraq, interestingly enough, it`s Barack Obama who`s now a flip-flopper. Remember, when he became president, he was going to tell the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you`re going to come out of there, I`m the president of the United States, you work for me. Now, all of a sudden, he`s going to go to Iraq because John McCain asked him to, he`s going to talk to the generals and see if it`s OK with the generals to pull out. That`s a huge flip-flop.
PAGLIARULO: Well, hold on, Ari. Why don`t we talk about Iraq?
MELBER: Please.
PAGLIARULO: I mean, it`s a great point.
I mean, Barack Obama has given a timetable. He`s told the insurgents and the bad guys and al Qaeda in Iraq, hey, 16 months after I become president, we`re leaving. OK? Everything will be fine and you guys can do anything you want to do at that point.
I mean, what about Iraq? How does he go from a definite timetable to, I`m going to talk to General Petraeus? He sounds an awful lot like Hillary Clinton, who attacked Petraeus, called him a liar, basically, in the Senate hearings, and then months later said, but if I become president -- Hillary Clinton said this -- I`ll talk to General Petraeus.
Everybody loves General Petraeus now. Maybe he should be the vice presidential nominee on the Democrats` side.
MELBER: Well, here are the facts. Barack Obama has been absolutely consistent from day one about focusing U.S. foreign policy to get al Qaeda and get out of a failed war in Iraq. I`ve heard a lot of spin over here today about...
PAGLIARULO: But you keep saying a failed war, Ari. It`s not a failed war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re winning.
PAGLIARULO: It`s a failed war in your mind. We are succeeding. You can`t say that and get away with it.
MELBER: I think you can. I think what you can say is that if you look at the public, you talk about public opinion and you talk about expertise from foreign policy people, everyone agrees that you can`t stay in Iraq indefinitely, that you need to have a clear withdrawal plan to get out of the failed war there. That you`re not going to defeat al Qaeda by staying meshed in a civil war. And that`s where the public is at.
John McCain, I think to his credit, has been consistent in saying that he wants to stay there for a very long time. And that puts him against the American public.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: Let`s not spin that one, Ari. Having a presence not fighting. He said 100 years. We`re in Western Europe now, we`re in Japan right now, we`re in South Korea now. We`re not fighting a war.
REAGAN: And by the way, just to let you know, we`re now going into the Czech Republic, and we`re going to be in the Czech Republic with bases.
PAGLIARULO: Well, listen, we will take it up from there next time, Michael.
Ari, Michael, thank you very much for joining.
You know, when we hear, Amy, about the flip-flopping and all this -- you know, all this nonsense, I think that really became vogue four years ago, you know, with John Kerry, who, by the way, is out there defending Barack Obama today on his Iraq stance.
HOLMES: And attacking John McCain.
PAGLIARULO: Which is crazy to me.
But, you know, when you hear about the flip-flopping, people at home are getting a little sick and tired of it. All they really -- you know how many calls I get on my radio shows where they say, can you give me a Web site or can you just tell me in an e-mail?
What do they really think about this stuff? Because they don`t know where the politicians stand. They don`t know who to vote for.
HOLMES: I believe it. And what`s really interesting, last week, CNN, when they did a poll of seeing how Barack Obama and John McCain are doing nationally, Ralph Nader was pulling 6 percent.
PAGLIARULO: Stunning.
HOLMES: Now, one political -- one political scientist said that that would be cut in half by Election Day. But that 3 percent makes all the difference.
PAGLIARULO: Who is getting 3 percent?
HOLMES: Well, 3 percent is Bob Barr.
PAGLIARULO: OK.
HOLMES: He`s getting 3 percent.
PAGLIARULO: So, 9 percent of potential voters are not going to vote for either one of these two mainstream guys if the election were today?
HOLMES: It`s astonishing. And what I think is also interesting is that for those progressive voters who wanted Barack Obama, the antiwar candidate, and who are very dissatisfied and disgruntled with Barack Obama, the flip-flopper, moving to the center guy, they might have somewhere to go in a guy like Ralph Nader. So this is dangerous.
PAGLIARULO: That`s very, very interesting.
All right. And you said, what, the 2000 election was decided by 3 percent?
HOLMES: Well, Ralph Nader, he pushed it over to George Bush in terms of the popular vote.
PAGLIARULO: There you go.
Coming up right here, the controversial South Carolina plan to issue Christian-themed license plates. Why is it controversial, please? We`ll find out after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: The U.S. Constitution upholds that we all have the right to freely worship as we see fit, without the government forcing a religion on us or persecuting us for our beliefs. Some say it calls for a separation of church and state. I disagree.
I looked through the Constitution, and I can`t find those words in there anywhere. But either way, the government cannot establish religion or tell you which one to follow.
A multidenominational activist group says that alleged separation is being violated by the state of South Carolina, which plans to issue license plates featuring a Christian cross and the words "I believe." So is there a constitutional breach? Or is this nothing more than a vanity plate with a higher calling?
Of course with me again is Amy Holmes.
You know, we had a lively discussion about this in Glenn`s office.
Glenn, I hang out in your office when you`re not here. I`m sorry.
We had a lively discussion about this before the program, and you bring up some very interesting points.
I, of course, believe you should be able to put anything on the license plate you want. You`re paying for it, you have a religion. As a matter of fact, if the government says I can`t put "I love Jesus" on a license plate, they are infringing upon my worship rights.
What do you think?
HOLMES: Well, the argument against that is that it`s the state that`s stamping out these license plates.
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
HOLMES: That they`re actually making them. And where do you draw that line? What if I wanted a "Playboy" bunny license plate or a Hooters license plate?
PAGLIARULO: I`ve got that on my car.
HOLMES: Or a -- oh. Well, does your wife know?
PAGLIARULO: No, I would have a problem with that because that, I think, patently can be seen as offensive. And the difference here is, you`re right, the government is stamping out these plates, but if they go to you and say, "What`s your religion?" and you say, "I`m Jewish," and they say, "Well, here`s a Christian license plate, you have to do it because I`m the American government and I say so," that`s a violation of the First Amendment.
HOLMES: Sure.
PAGLIARULO: Me deciding that I want to express my feelings on something, on something that I pay for...
HOLMES: But Joe, what if a person says to you -- goes to the government and says, "I`m a devil worshipper and I want a ghost head," and `Damn you to hell` on the license plate? Should the state be...
PAGLIARULO: Well, I think "Hell" would probably be the obscenity there, and that would probably stop it.
HOLMES: Hades.
PAGLIARULO: But if you want to say, "I love the devil," again, you`ve got a right in America to love the devil. There`s something wrong with you if you think that way, but you have that right. And, of course, it`s not you we`re talking about here.
South Carolina`s lieutenant governor, Andre Bauer, supports this plan, and Reverend Barry Lynn, the executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, does not.
And listen, we appreciate both of you being here.
Reverend, what are you a reverend of? And why would you have a problem with me expressing my Christianity?
REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS United FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Well, I`m in the United Church of Christ Ministry, and the reason I have a problem is apparently you think highly of your car, we have already established that. But prior to the state of South Carolina`s legislature getting into this business of designing and now promoting a Christian plate, you, if you`re a Christian, had an opportunity to put on a bumper sticker that talks about your church, gives any kind of a theological message. You can put a Christian fish symbol or a decal.
Nobody was trying to take away your First Amendment rights. The difference here is that this time, the state of South Carolina`s legislature decided to design one and only one plate. That`s the Christian plate.
It has a Christian cross in front of a stained glass window, and the words "I believe." What could be a clearer and more succinct way to say the government prefers Christianity over other faiths that exist in the state of South Carolina?
HOLMES: So, Reverend, are you saying though that if the state then allowed other religions, allowed, you know, the David star or a Muslim symbol or a Hindu symbol, for that matter, that that then would be allowed? That you would be for it just so long as religions were treated equally?
LYNN: No, I wouldn`t be for it. But the point is, they didn`t even discuss that for a second, Amy. They didn`t even think about that.
They just decided to design. And now, if -- unless our lawsuit is successful, promote this Christian plate. In other words, this idea...
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: It`s a moot point. Your whole point is moot, Reverend.
I mean, you said you wouldn`t be for it anyway. Then your whole argument is just thrown out of the water.
I would offer this tape to the court so that you could lose your -- you could lose this whole case. You just admitted that your case is based on fallacy.
LYNN: No. No.
PAGLIARULO: Lieutenant Governor, I want you to jump in here.
LYNN: Joe, why don`t you...
PAGLIARULO: Hold on, Reverend. We have limited time.
Lieutenant -- and I promise, Reverend, we`ll come back to you. I`m not going to cut you off.
LYNN: Yes.
PAGLIARULO: Lieutenant Governor, you say that you`re going to bet your entire political career on I guess what I just said, that he`s going to lose in court. Go ahead.
LT. GOV. ANDRE BAUER (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, I don`t know that I`m betting my career on it. I don`t know that when you`re lieutenant governor you have that much of a career.
But I ran for public office to do what I think was right. You know, it`s kind of like Teddy Roosevelt saw the old man in the arena. It`s easy to be the one criticizing the guy in the arena, but we have less and less people willing to really stick up for what they think is right.
Let me show you a license plate that currently is available in South Carolina. Can you zoom in on that?
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
BAUER: I went by the highway department and got this. Now, clearly I don`t support this, but it is available to the people of South Carolina.
We offer over 100 license plates in South Carolina. So I don`t know why we would want to say that we would not let Christians purchase a license plate when we have every other group that has applied and gone through the proper steps has been able to get one.
I can`t think of any group that has been denied or had a lawsuit filed against them except Christians. And so I think it`s time for Christians to stand up and let it be known that they ought to be able to have a license plate if all these other groups should be.
And so we believe in it. We`re going to fight this. Lawsuits don`t scare me. I have had to be in them before, and I think that every time those are thrown up, a lot of times those are just roadblocks for people to be able to get free publicity.
HOLMES: Sure. But Lieutenant Governor, what about the reverend`s point that not all religions are being treated equally in South Carolina. Would you say, you know, all in or all out in terms of license plates?
BAUER: I would say the reverend has never sat down with Andre Bauer, because if he had a license plate he was interested in, I would help them facilitate the process with no constraints, no reservations. That`s part of the process.
If, in fact, Christians were the only ones allowed to get this tag, then I would say his claim was legitimate. But the fact that no other group has asked for one, no other group has gone through the steps to try to get one, no other group has even expressed that they would like to get one, I don`t really think you have a case here for that.
LYNN: Oh, that`s nonsense.
PAGLIARULO: Reverend, go ahead. Go ahead. I know that you`re champing at the bit. Go ahead.
LYNN: Yes. I mean, that`s nonsense, because of course you could go to the Department of Motor Vehicles if you have $4,000 or 400 people who want a plate, but it can only say the name of your organization and any specific logo of your organization.
You couldn`t, for example, go to the Department of Motor Vehicles and get a plate that said, "I do not believe anything." That would be illegal. And the lieutenant governor knows that this is the only plate (ph) promoted by the state.
PAGLIARULO: Reverend, Lieutenant Governor, you know, I wish we had 35 minutes just for you two because this is a very interesting case.
I, of course, Reverend, am right. And you, of course, believe that you are.
Lieutenant Governor, Reverend, thank you so much.
OK. We`ve got much more to come right here on the program. We`re going to say in this quasi religious theme as we introduce you to a woman who is selling her soul on eBay.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAGLIARULO: By now, most people know that the Internet auction site eBay is a great place to buy and sell stuff like Brady Bunch lunch boxes. I`ve got a full collection.
Now one Texas woman is seeing if she can find a buyer for something a bit more personal.
News 8 Austin`s Heidi Zhou has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoever bids on myself, they need to take it very seriously.
HEIDI ZHOU, REPORTER, NEWS 9 AUSTIN (voice over): Seriously? Carrie Crane (ph) is selling her soul.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope I transfer all my good, positive energy to them and they will do great things. That`s what I hope. Kind of transfer my creativity to them.
ZHOU: That creativity is what got Crane (ph) here in the first place. She`s working on a screenplay. It`s about a woman who, guess what, sells her soul on eBay, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I decided to really get into the character, my heroine`s mind, I had to do it.
ZHOU: Crane (ph) calls it research. Her husband Gary (ph) calls it a little nuts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if she had wrote a murder if we`d have to go out and shoot somebody, which, of course, would have never happened.
ZHOU: Gary (ph) says he`s used to his wife`s quirks and he will help her with all the technical stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inasmuch as it`s an inanimate object, transferring title would be kind of difficult.
ZHOU: Crane (ph) has that and other difficult questions to answer.
(on camera): So are you getting a new one?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m sure I will.
ZHOU: How much of this is serious and how much is it...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it was just kind of comical and whimsical until -- now you`re like scaring me.
ZHOU (voice over): She also has an e-mail box full of other inquiries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Is there a warranty on this item?" "What is your refund policy if I`m not completely satisfied?" "Do you have other similar items for sale on eBay?"
My god, I mean, who is this guy? I was like, whatever.
ZHOU: A lot of talk, but so far no cash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ve been waiting to the last minute.
ZHOU: Probably, because the starting bid for Crane`s (ph) soul is only $1,000. Now, she says that`s a knockout for something usually considered priceless.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAGLIARULO: She was surprised that nobody`s bid on it yet. She thought that was crazy. She thought the question was crazy that she got. Come on.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: Well, I know you can sell your soul to the devil, but I didn`t know you could sell it on eBay.
PAGLIARULO: Now we know.
HOLMES: But clearly there`s something not right with that woman. Did you see her eyes?
PAGLIARULO: There`s something very, very wrong there.
HOLMES: Yes, strange.
PAGLIARULO: Hey, that`s going to do it for us tonight.
In for Glenn Beck, I`m Joe Pags -- Joe Pagliarulo.
HOLMES: And I`m Amy Holmes.
Thanks for joining us.
PAGLIARULO: From New York, good night.
END
