Return to Transcripts main page
Inside Africa
Africa Pays About $15 Billion in Debt Each Year to Western Countries
Aired February 19, 2005 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUMI MAKGABO, HOST: Finding a way out of Africa's debt crisis; the United Nation's Conference on Trade and Development wants the continent's debt written off. But other institutions say not so fast. Hear both sides of the argument from representatives of the United Nations and the African Development Bank.
Plus, Ethiopia honors reggae king Bob Marley, as thousands participate in concert to commemorate his birthday.
These stories ahead on this edition of INSIDE AFRICA.
Hello and welcome to the program. I'm Tumi Makgabo.
Now, just before we get things underway, I'd like to remind you that this is going to be a call-in program. We want to hear your thoughts on the discussion we're going to be having shortly. And let me give you number. It's 1-404-827-1010. That's 1-404-827-1010. We would like for you to participate in this discussion.
What it's about is African's debt. The continent pays about $15 billion in debt each year. Money that critics say could be used to help deal with a multitude of problems faced by African nations. So some are calling on wealthy nations and lending institutions to completely write off the debt.
In a report last year, the United Nations' Conference of Trade and Development, UNCTAD, said until consensus is reached on Africa's debt, there should be a moratorium on debt servicing. Others, including lending institutions disagree, arguing instead for other forms of debt relief.
On our program today, "Africa's Dept Crisis Problems and the Way Out." Joining us on the program to discuss the issue the issue, Omar Kaba, president of the African Development Bank. And Geneva, Kamran Kousari, special coordinator for Africa at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, to both of you, welcome. And of course, to our viewers, a reminder that you will be able to pose questions to our guests by calling 1-404-827-1010 (AUDIO GAP) at insideafrica@cnn.com.
Omar Kaba (AUDIO GAP) First of all, the question seems to be whether (AUDIO GAP) about canceling the debt completely or perhaps an alternative route? Why is the canceling the debt completely a good or a bad idea?
OMAR KABA, PRESIDENT, AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK: Well, it's not a good or bad idea. There is no question that debt is one of the three important (AUDIO GAP) that community can help. Low-income countries, of course, including African ones, and we are ourselves for more debt relief on African countries. I think a lot of points were made and the HIPC Initiative and also by the bilaterans (ph). Most of the bilaterans have cancelled their debts. As far as the multilaterans (ph) concerned, 23 African countries have benefited from HIPC so far and got...
MAKGABO: But of course, it is important for us to remember that HIPC is not the same as saying that we're going to completely cancel any money that is owed to us, to allow you to invest that in education or health services.
KABA: Yes. But I will come to that. But I just wanted to say that a lot of progress was made. The African Development Bank itself has mobilized more than $4 billion to world HIPC.
Now on the debate that should we cancel the whole debt? (AUDIO GAP) with that we are saying is that as far as lending institutions (AUDIO GAP) the institutions will not be able to continue (AUDIO GAP) these countries with finance and technical assistance that will still need to overcome.
MAKGABO: All right. Kamran Kousari, many will say that sounds like a fair enough argument. Your response?
KAMRAN KOUSARI, SPECIAL COORDINATOR FOR AFRICA, UNCTAD: Well, actually my response is our study shows (AUDIO GAP) so far enough is that the indeed the debt are reduced or written off, with half of the resources for reducing poverty by half (AUDIO GAP) there are many ways of going about write (AUDIO GAP) checker of the U.K. That is that the developed countries, they come to themselves (AUDIO GAP) by African countries.
Certainly one must be careful in order to maintain that financial health (AUDIO GAP) have led the countries in so far as their policies are concerns. And it's obvious that in the past 20 years or 25 years these macro policies have failed. And therefore, there is some sort of shared responsibilities that must be taken on by the IFI, by the International Financial Institutions. And (AUDIO GAP) while the lending by the donors were also based on the macro economic policies of (AUDIO GAP)
MAKGABO: (AUDIO GAP) audience to participate (AUDIO GAP) questions to our guests.
RAUL: I put my question to (AUDIO GAP) the talk to some few minutes ago. I would like to ask what (AUDIO GAP) about African debt relief if, for example, (AUDIO GAP) billions of dollars of corrupt African leaders is actually here in European banks! Why are they not pressing the European government to sort (AUDIO GAP) back to the African people, instead of asking for debt relief?
MAKGABO: All right, Raul. Omar Kaba, perhaps we could begin with your response to that. The point being that it seems that in as much as people are talking about debt relief, when it comes to people storing their money or stowing their cash in European countries, not much is being done to prevent them from doing that and using those resources to the benefit of their own people.
KABA: Well, first of all, let me react very briefly to the question of what was said before. In terms of the initiative by Chancellor Brown, (AUDIO GAP) its approval by G8 in their next meeting (AUDIO GAP) that would take care of most of the problems that are, of course, are raised.
Now, in terms of the corruption issues, as you know our organization is at the forefront of the fight against debt. We try very hard to help our countries deal with debt (AUDIO GAP) But as to fact (AUDIO GAP) the countries themselves should do what is necessary to reach those amounts of money...
MAKGABO: But there are those, if I may interrupt you. There are those who will argue that as much as is up to those countries themselves to try to deal with the issue, many who countries who are in possession of this money are indirectly or directly benefiting from those stolen funds.
KABA: Yes. I was that saying, for example, that Nigeria has taken bold steps to repatriate some of the things that were not that the international organization can help in those processes. But to go from there and to say that is our responsibility is perhaps going too far.
MAKGABO: All right. Let's take another call, Una (ph) is now joining us from Switzerland. Una, go ahead.
UNA, SWISS CALLER: OK. I want to direct my question to either of the discussant. My question is this. Why is it so difficult for Europe and America to forgive the debt of Africa when they were ready to forgive the debt of Iraq, considering how much these two continent; Europe and America, benefited from America?
MAKGABO: All right. Thank you very much, Una.
Kamran Kousari, perhaps we can get you to address that. Certainly something many people are wondering about (AUDIO GAP) for Iraq's debt to be forgiven, for many Asian countries (AUDIO GAP) what (AUDIO GAP)
KOUSARI: Well, this is a very good question in fact. Iraq owes some $120 billion, much of which is owed to some of its neighbors, other OECD countries in the context of the Paris Club. And our understanding is the Paris Club has agreed to forgive 80 percent (AUDIO GAP) or the proposal of this Paris Club is forgive 80 percent of the debt of Iraq.
Now, if the other countries, which are not Paris Club members, agree to do so as well, it will mean that Iraq would receive something like $90 billion of debt relief or (AUDIO GAP) dollars. While, if you look at such (AUDIO GAP) the debt write-off would represent not half of the (AUDIO GAP) and by the way, all (AUDIO GAP) initiative (AUDIO GAP) it's a matter of just (AUDIO GAP) debt.
The Iraqi debt is being forgiven (AUDIO GAP) on the same footing.
MAKGABO: Omar Kaba, maybe you can respond.
KABA: I share the view expressed just a (AUDIO GAP)
MAKGABO: You share the view (AUDIO GAP) a little earlier, you were insisting HIPC is the way to go, whereas many sub-Saharan countries, which he just pointed out, aren't HIPC countries. Which means they aren't getting the relief that you were saying they should be.
KABA: No, but those who aren't getting the relief (AUDIO GAP) African, South African, some better off countries who would not even (AUDIO GAP) wish to get that relief. Be carefully about their credit (AUDIO GAP) There are very few sub-Saharan (AUDIO GAP) because they do not qualify under the HIPC.
And here let me interject that we need to be careful about this (AUDIO GAP) of culture, of being seen as responsible for ones debts. And this is what those other African countries are precisely to be doing.
MAKGABO: All right, certainly a point that we will continue to discuss right after the break. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)'
MAKGABO: Welcome back to INSIDE AFRICA, as we discuss the issue of debt relief in African and precisely how it can help in helping us to pinpoint some of the fine (AUDIO GAP)
Joining us from Washington is Omar Kaba. He's the president of the African Development Bank. And Kamran Kousari, special coordinator for Africa on the United Nations Conference of Trade and Development. That is UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, thank you very much once again, for being with us.
As we pointed out earlier in our program, we are asking our viewers to join in on this discussion. So if you'd like to call us, the number is 1- 404-827-1010.
Mr. Kousari, if I could come back to you. Certainly one of the issues that people have had is the question of corruption. In fact, we have an email that address that very issue saying, "What will be done about corruption to ensure that governments are held accountable for the money they spend, but they borrow?"
KOUSARI: Well, I think the question of corruption is one that always pops up on discussions on Africa. Africa is not alone in corruption. But I must say the number of profligate regimes in Africa are quite few, and now they are the exception.
As you know, there is the NEPAD. Which is the New Partnership for African's Development, in which there's a peer review mechanism. And there are 23 African countries who have already stated they are willing to participate in this peer review. And as you know, the African (AUDIO GAP) of the African Union have also moved to ensuring better governance and democratic governance in Africa.
So I think the question of corruption is a much smaller problem than it would have been some 10, 15 years ago. Which was the kind of corruption that the West would close it eyes to, in the context of the Cold War. But I think that with a higher number of African countries espousing democratic principles and good governance, I don't think that the issue of corruption is that much of an issue. Very few countries, of course, certainly have to revise their governance in that context.
MAKGABO: All right. Let's go back to the phone lines. Drake is on the line, I believe from Dubai.
Drake, go ahead.
DRAKE, DUBAI CALLER: Well, good evening, Mrs. Tumi. Hello. Hello?
MAKGABO: Hi, Drake. Go ahead. We can hear you.
DRAKE: Yes. I think the speaker; the last speaker actually made a point and the first caller has also talked about relief for Africa, which is very important. The fact is, these governments have to take African leaders who deposit money in Africa is very obviously their own money deposited in this country. And these countries are broke, that's used to develop their countries.
But then the question has to be asked where this money come from? We have a president -- actually, I'm from Nigeria. We have a former president from Nigeria who I think hasn't done a personal business at all, at all in his life. But then he stands amongst the richest people...
MAKGABO: All right. Drake, I'm sorry to we have to interrupt you. But we need to get to the point because there are several other people waiting on the line. Please get to your point.
DRAKE: OK. Yes. My question is why are the big international community or the big money lenders been reluctant to relief Africa's debt, when even before the war in Iraq, these countries have been pleading for debt relief so that the people who really want to do something in their country would do something? But just because of the war in Iraq just now, Iraq has been relieved of her debt while Africa is still crying. At least...
MAKGABO: All right. Drake, thank you very much.
I think we got the gist of what he was trying to ask there. Omar Kaba, perhaps you could address the question of why the reluctance.
KABA: There is reluctance (AUDIO GAP) is the issues of the countries and regions depending on specific conditions. Also, as I said I share the view that Africa should get much better treatment because of what happened in Iraq and so on. And we are fighting for more debt relief for Africa with the proviso that I put. And we are expecting from the next G8 meeting some further solutions.
And we are also addressing the issue of corruption at the very first (AUDIO GAP) and most of the countries are going to (AUDIO GAP) my colleague (AUDIO GAP) that we are -- the governments are doing their best now addressing governance issues. We are supporting them very effective (AUDIO GAP) to reform their legal-judicial systems, property rights system (AUDIO GAP) and in our projects, we are applying our supervision mission, our audits. We are even going to have a whistle-blower mechanism, which would help us detect corruption when it occurs.
Now, as I said for what happened in the past, of course, big countries (AUDIO GAP) some of them are cooperating with the governments who want to fight these things. And Nigeria I think got good results on that; getting back some of the money that previous governments had stolen.
But it's a long shot debate in our case. The international institutions cannot be accused of that, because we do...
MAKGABO: All right. Omar Kaba, I'm sorry to have to interrupt you. I'm being told that we do need to go right now to a break. Do stay with us though, gentlemen. We will continue our conversation in just a moment.
You're watching INSIDE AFRICA.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MAKGABO: Welcome back. (AUDIO GAP)
Omar Kaba and in Geneva is And Kamran Kousari, the special coordinator for Africa at UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, I'm going to straight to the phones lines. I believe we're joined by Sam, who is calling from Brussels.
Sam, go ahead.
SAM, BRUSSLES CALLER: Good evening, Madam. The issue of debt relief for Africa is absolutely (AUDIO GAP) But I need to find out from these two gentlemen what guarantees can they give that the money will not disappear like it's done before, if this money is given by the West?
MAKGABO: All right. Sam, thank you very much.
Mr. Kaba, we could begin with you. What guarantee is there that the money would not disappear?
KABA: Yes. Well, for these monies, we make sure that they are used for social (AUDIO GAP) that check on that, the important one. And my I add, that from now on, 26 countries will get only grants from the African Development Bank. And the rest of the 40 low-income countries will get proportions of our financing in high rate of grants. These (AUDIO GAP)
KOUSARI: Well, I think that the fact (AUDIO GAP) written off the debt (AUDIO GAP) represents only half of the resource requirement of these countries if they want to achieve the objects of the underlining objectives. And therefore, I don't think that any African country would risk doing the same that is (AUDIO GAP) badly. And subjecting themselves to the fact that there may not be any new resources.
So I'm confident that if the debt is written-off, with the necessity for high levels of grants and aid to these countries through bilateral and multilateral resources, that these countries will think twice before, if you want, wasting the money.
MAKGABO: All right. Gentlemen, in as much (AUDIO GAP) once again, thank you very much for joining us in Washington. And Kamran Kousari, the special coordinator for Africa at the United Nations Conference of Trade and Development.
And that's our look at INSIDE AFRICA for this week. We do like to -- we would like to apologize (AUDIO GAP) do not have that story on the (AUDIO GAP) for you this week. I do promise that we will have it for the future. Thanks again though for joining us. Bye.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 19, 2005 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUMI MAKGABO, HOST: Finding a way out of Africa's debt crisis; the United Nation's Conference on Trade and Development wants the continent's debt written off. But other institutions say not so fast. Hear both sides of the argument from representatives of the United Nations and the African Development Bank.
Plus, Ethiopia honors reggae king Bob Marley, as thousands participate in concert to commemorate his birthday.
These stories ahead on this edition of INSIDE AFRICA.
Hello and welcome to the program. I'm Tumi Makgabo.
Now, just before we get things underway, I'd like to remind you that this is going to be a call-in program. We want to hear your thoughts on the discussion we're going to be having shortly. And let me give you number. It's 1-404-827-1010. That's 1-404-827-1010. We would like for you to participate in this discussion.
What it's about is African's debt. The continent pays about $15 billion in debt each year. Money that critics say could be used to help deal with a multitude of problems faced by African nations. So some are calling on wealthy nations and lending institutions to completely write off the debt.
In a report last year, the United Nations' Conference of Trade and Development, UNCTAD, said until consensus is reached on Africa's debt, there should be a moratorium on debt servicing. Others, including lending institutions disagree, arguing instead for other forms of debt relief.
On our program today, "Africa's Dept Crisis Problems and the Way Out." Joining us on the program to discuss the issue the issue, Omar Kaba, president of the African Development Bank. And Geneva, Kamran Kousari, special coordinator for Africa at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, to both of you, welcome. And of course, to our viewers, a reminder that you will be able to pose questions to our guests by calling 1-404-827-1010 (AUDIO GAP) at insideafrica@cnn.com.
Omar Kaba (AUDIO GAP) First of all, the question seems to be whether (AUDIO GAP) about canceling the debt completely or perhaps an alternative route? Why is the canceling the debt completely a good or a bad idea?
OMAR KABA, PRESIDENT, AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK: Well, it's not a good or bad idea. There is no question that debt is one of the three important (AUDIO GAP) that community can help. Low-income countries, of course, including African ones, and we are ourselves for more debt relief on African countries. I think a lot of points were made and the HIPC Initiative and also by the bilaterans (ph). Most of the bilaterans have cancelled their debts. As far as the multilaterans (ph) concerned, 23 African countries have benefited from HIPC so far and got...
MAKGABO: But of course, it is important for us to remember that HIPC is not the same as saying that we're going to completely cancel any money that is owed to us, to allow you to invest that in education or health services.
KABA: Yes. But I will come to that. But I just wanted to say that a lot of progress was made. The African Development Bank itself has mobilized more than $4 billion to world HIPC.
Now on the debate that should we cancel the whole debt? (AUDIO GAP) with that we are saying is that as far as lending institutions (AUDIO GAP) the institutions will not be able to continue (AUDIO GAP) these countries with finance and technical assistance that will still need to overcome.
MAKGABO: All right. Kamran Kousari, many will say that sounds like a fair enough argument. Your response?
KAMRAN KOUSARI, SPECIAL COORDINATOR FOR AFRICA, UNCTAD: Well, actually my response is our study shows (AUDIO GAP) so far enough is that the indeed the debt are reduced or written off, with half of the resources for reducing poverty by half (AUDIO GAP) there are many ways of going about write (AUDIO GAP) checker of the U.K. That is that the developed countries, they come to themselves (AUDIO GAP) by African countries.
Certainly one must be careful in order to maintain that financial health (AUDIO GAP) have led the countries in so far as their policies are concerns. And it's obvious that in the past 20 years or 25 years these macro policies have failed. And therefore, there is some sort of shared responsibilities that must be taken on by the IFI, by the International Financial Institutions. And (AUDIO GAP) while the lending by the donors were also based on the macro economic policies of (AUDIO GAP)
MAKGABO: (AUDIO GAP) audience to participate (AUDIO GAP) questions to our guests.
RAUL: I put my question to (AUDIO GAP) the talk to some few minutes ago. I would like to ask what (AUDIO GAP) about African debt relief if, for example, (AUDIO GAP) billions of dollars of corrupt African leaders is actually here in European banks! Why are they not pressing the European government to sort (AUDIO GAP) back to the African people, instead of asking for debt relief?
MAKGABO: All right, Raul. Omar Kaba, perhaps we could begin with your response to that. The point being that it seems that in as much as people are talking about debt relief, when it comes to people storing their money or stowing their cash in European countries, not much is being done to prevent them from doing that and using those resources to the benefit of their own people.
KABA: Well, first of all, let me react very briefly to the question of what was said before. In terms of the initiative by Chancellor Brown, (AUDIO GAP) its approval by G8 in their next meeting (AUDIO GAP) that would take care of most of the problems that are, of course, are raised.
Now, in terms of the corruption issues, as you know our organization is at the forefront of the fight against debt. We try very hard to help our countries deal with debt (AUDIO GAP) But as to fact (AUDIO GAP) the countries themselves should do what is necessary to reach those amounts of money...
MAKGABO: But there are those, if I may interrupt you. There are those who will argue that as much as is up to those countries themselves to try to deal with the issue, many who countries who are in possession of this money are indirectly or directly benefiting from those stolen funds.
KABA: Yes. I was that saying, for example, that Nigeria has taken bold steps to repatriate some of the things that were not that the international organization can help in those processes. But to go from there and to say that is our responsibility is perhaps going too far.
MAKGABO: All right. Let's take another call, Una (ph) is now joining us from Switzerland. Una, go ahead.
UNA, SWISS CALLER: OK. I want to direct my question to either of the discussant. My question is this. Why is it so difficult for Europe and America to forgive the debt of Africa when they were ready to forgive the debt of Iraq, considering how much these two continent; Europe and America, benefited from America?
MAKGABO: All right. Thank you very much, Una.
Kamran Kousari, perhaps we can get you to address that. Certainly something many people are wondering about (AUDIO GAP) for Iraq's debt to be forgiven, for many Asian countries (AUDIO GAP) what (AUDIO GAP)
KOUSARI: Well, this is a very good question in fact. Iraq owes some $120 billion, much of which is owed to some of its neighbors, other OECD countries in the context of the Paris Club. And our understanding is the Paris Club has agreed to forgive 80 percent (AUDIO GAP) or the proposal of this Paris Club is forgive 80 percent of the debt of Iraq.
Now, if the other countries, which are not Paris Club members, agree to do so as well, it will mean that Iraq would receive something like $90 billion of debt relief or (AUDIO GAP) dollars. While, if you look at such (AUDIO GAP) the debt write-off would represent not half of the (AUDIO GAP) and by the way, all (AUDIO GAP) initiative (AUDIO GAP) it's a matter of just (AUDIO GAP) debt.
The Iraqi debt is being forgiven (AUDIO GAP) on the same footing.
MAKGABO: Omar Kaba, maybe you can respond.
KABA: I share the view expressed just a (AUDIO GAP)
MAKGABO: You share the view (AUDIO GAP) a little earlier, you were insisting HIPC is the way to go, whereas many sub-Saharan countries, which he just pointed out, aren't HIPC countries. Which means they aren't getting the relief that you were saying they should be.
KABA: No, but those who aren't getting the relief (AUDIO GAP) African, South African, some better off countries who would not even (AUDIO GAP) wish to get that relief. Be carefully about their credit (AUDIO GAP) There are very few sub-Saharan (AUDIO GAP) because they do not qualify under the HIPC.
And here let me interject that we need to be careful about this (AUDIO GAP) of culture, of being seen as responsible for ones debts. And this is what those other African countries are precisely to be doing.
MAKGABO: All right, certainly a point that we will continue to discuss right after the break. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)'
MAKGABO: Welcome back to INSIDE AFRICA, as we discuss the issue of debt relief in African and precisely how it can help in helping us to pinpoint some of the fine (AUDIO GAP)
Joining us from Washington is Omar Kaba. He's the president of the African Development Bank. And Kamran Kousari, special coordinator for Africa on the United Nations Conference of Trade and Development. That is UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, thank you very much once again, for being with us.
As we pointed out earlier in our program, we are asking our viewers to join in on this discussion. So if you'd like to call us, the number is 1- 404-827-1010.
Mr. Kousari, if I could come back to you. Certainly one of the issues that people have had is the question of corruption. In fact, we have an email that address that very issue saying, "What will be done about corruption to ensure that governments are held accountable for the money they spend, but they borrow?"
KOUSARI: Well, I think the question of corruption is one that always pops up on discussions on Africa. Africa is not alone in corruption. But I must say the number of profligate regimes in Africa are quite few, and now they are the exception.
As you know, there is the NEPAD. Which is the New Partnership for African's Development, in which there's a peer review mechanism. And there are 23 African countries who have already stated they are willing to participate in this peer review. And as you know, the African (AUDIO GAP) of the African Union have also moved to ensuring better governance and democratic governance in Africa.
So I think the question of corruption is a much smaller problem than it would have been some 10, 15 years ago. Which was the kind of corruption that the West would close it eyes to, in the context of the Cold War. But I think that with a higher number of African countries espousing democratic principles and good governance, I don't think that the issue of corruption is that much of an issue. Very few countries, of course, certainly have to revise their governance in that context.
MAKGABO: All right. Let's go back to the phone lines. Drake is on the line, I believe from Dubai.
Drake, go ahead.
DRAKE, DUBAI CALLER: Well, good evening, Mrs. Tumi. Hello. Hello?
MAKGABO: Hi, Drake. Go ahead. We can hear you.
DRAKE: Yes. I think the speaker; the last speaker actually made a point and the first caller has also talked about relief for Africa, which is very important. The fact is, these governments have to take African leaders who deposit money in Africa is very obviously their own money deposited in this country. And these countries are broke, that's used to develop their countries.
But then the question has to be asked where this money come from? We have a president -- actually, I'm from Nigeria. We have a former president from Nigeria who I think hasn't done a personal business at all, at all in his life. But then he stands amongst the richest people...
MAKGABO: All right. Drake, I'm sorry to we have to interrupt you. But we need to get to the point because there are several other people waiting on the line. Please get to your point.
DRAKE: OK. Yes. My question is why are the big international community or the big money lenders been reluctant to relief Africa's debt, when even before the war in Iraq, these countries have been pleading for debt relief so that the people who really want to do something in their country would do something? But just because of the war in Iraq just now, Iraq has been relieved of her debt while Africa is still crying. At least...
MAKGABO: All right. Drake, thank you very much.
I think we got the gist of what he was trying to ask there. Omar Kaba, perhaps you could address the question of why the reluctance.
KABA: There is reluctance (AUDIO GAP) is the issues of the countries and regions depending on specific conditions. Also, as I said I share the view that Africa should get much better treatment because of what happened in Iraq and so on. And we are fighting for more debt relief for Africa with the proviso that I put. And we are expecting from the next G8 meeting some further solutions.
And we are also addressing the issue of corruption at the very first (AUDIO GAP) and most of the countries are going to (AUDIO GAP) my colleague (AUDIO GAP) that we are -- the governments are doing their best now addressing governance issues. We are supporting them very effective (AUDIO GAP) to reform their legal-judicial systems, property rights system (AUDIO GAP) and in our projects, we are applying our supervision mission, our audits. We are even going to have a whistle-blower mechanism, which would help us detect corruption when it occurs.
Now, as I said for what happened in the past, of course, big countries (AUDIO GAP) some of them are cooperating with the governments who want to fight these things. And Nigeria I think got good results on that; getting back some of the money that previous governments had stolen.
But it's a long shot debate in our case. The international institutions cannot be accused of that, because we do...
MAKGABO: All right. Omar Kaba, I'm sorry to have to interrupt you. I'm being told that we do need to go right now to a break. Do stay with us though, gentlemen. We will continue our conversation in just a moment.
You're watching INSIDE AFRICA.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MAKGABO: Welcome back. (AUDIO GAP)
Omar Kaba and in Geneva is And Kamran Kousari, the special coordinator for Africa at UNCTAD.
Gentlemen, I'm going to straight to the phones lines. I believe we're joined by Sam, who is calling from Brussels.
Sam, go ahead.
SAM, BRUSSLES CALLER: Good evening, Madam. The issue of debt relief for Africa is absolutely (AUDIO GAP) But I need to find out from these two gentlemen what guarantees can they give that the money will not disappear like it's done before, if this money is given by the West?
MAKGABO: All right. Sam, thank you very much.
Mr. Kaba, we could begin with you. What guarantee is there that the money would not disappear?
KABA: Yes. Well, for these monies, we make sure that they are used for social (AUDIO GAP) that check on that, the important one. And my I add, that from now on, 26 countries will get only grants from the African Development Bank. And the rest of the 40 low-income countries will get proportions of our financing in high rate of grants. These (AUDIO GAP)
KOUSARI: Well, I think that the fact (AUDIO GAP) written off the debt (AUDIO GAP) represents only half of the resource requirement of these countries if they want to achieve the objects of the underlining objectives. And therefore, I don't think that any African country would risk doing the same that is (AUDIO GAP) badly. And subjecting themselves to the fact that there may not be any new resources.
So I'm confident that if the debt is written-off, with the necessity for high levels of grants and aid to these countries through bilateral and multilateral resources, that these countries will think twice before, if you want, wasting the money.
MAKGABO: All right. Gentlemen, in as much (AUDIO GAP) once again, thank you very much for joining us in Washington. And Kamran Kousari, the special coordinator for Africa at the United Nations Conference of Trade and Development.
And that's our look at INSIDE AFRICA for this week. We do like to -- we would like to apologize (AUDIO GAP) do not have that story on the (AUDIO GAP) for you this week. I do promise that we will have it for the future. Thanks again though for joining us. Bye.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
