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Troubles in Northern Ireland

Aired March 16, 2005 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: In the name of the sisters. Five tenacious women shame the IRA into acknowledging a murder. The hard men who took on police and politicians face the scorn of their own people.
Hello and welcome. I'm Hala Gorani.

To many Catholics in Northern Ireland, the IRA has long had the kind of endearing nickname you might give a member of the family, Ra (ph). Now more and more people are calling it by a different nickname, bringing to mind quite a different family, the Rafia (ph).

Things have changed in Northern Ireland. The political process seems paralyzed, but in the last few years there has been a dramatic change nonetheless. Decades of political violence have just about come to an end. The IRA, the Irish Republican Army, has not given up its weapons or its war, and in two important episodes, a bar brawl and a bank robbery, it may have shot itself in the foot.

On our program today, the IRA's troubles.

Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Surrounded by TV crews wherever they go, these are perhaps the most famous sisters in the world right now, Donna, Gemma, Catherine and Claire McCartney. Their daring fight to bring their brother Robert's murderers to justice has made them instant celebrities, because even as they are snapped by "People" magazine, they know they are pursuing some of the most dangerous people in the world, members of the Irish Republican Army, the IRA.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just keeping thinking of Robert, and how important it is to get these people to court.

AMANPOUR: And that's what they'll tell President Bush when they meet him at the White House on St. Patrick's Day.

We sat down with the McCartney sisters as they were about to leave Belfast. Even today, nearly two months later, talking of their brother's murder reduces them to tears.

They tell us that witnesses say that Robert and his friend, Brendan Devine, were having a few drinks in this Belfast pub January 30 when a senior IRA man accused them of insulting one of his friends.

Claire, Robert's younger sister, says that she was told he and his friend, Brendan Devine apologized and bought them a round of drinks.

CLAIRE MCCARTNEY, SISTER OF ROBERT MCCARTNEY: At which point the senior Republican said, "Do you know who I am" and Brendan Devine says, "I don't care who you are."

And then the next thing, there was a bottle broke on Brendan Devine's head and a bottle stuck in his neck, and his head was yanked back, and his throat was cut.

AMANPOUR: That's when all hell broke loose. Witnesses told the sisters that Robert got his bleeding, injured friend out of the bar, but a group of men followed them.

CLAIRE MCCARTNEY: And at least five or six of them pursued Robert up an entry, beating them with sticks, and.

AMANPOUR: Claire can't finish the story because it's too hard to talk about what happened next. Witnesses have told them their brother was beaten and stabbed and men even jumped on his face.

They left Robert and his friend Brendan for dead in the alley behind the pub. Brendan survived his severe wounds. But Robert died in hospital with his sisters at his battered side.

Besides his sisters, Robert left behind a fiancee and their two young children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can't believe he's gone, you know.

AMANPOUR: Now that he's gone, though, the five sisters have gone all out to seek answers. They even met with the IRA Council.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We asked the IRA Council why, what was the reason for killing Robert, and they responded quite promptly there was no reason.

AMANPOUR: There seems to be no doubt the killers were members of the IRA, because afterwards the IRA made the sisters an extraordinary offer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were prepared to use the old traditional IRA method.

AMANPOUR (on camera): What is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Execution.

AMANPOUR: They told you that they would execute his killers?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you said no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. We decided that justice was better for Robert in the conventional method, which is bringing them through the courts.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The sisters were in fact disgusted by that offer and so were many in Northern Ireland, but so far they have had no luck getting the killers to court.

(on camera): You know who did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You know who these killers are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Do you see them? Are they walking around?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Where are they?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're in the streets. I passed one the other day, the senior Republica, and I passed him, he was coming back from the local shop, standing brazenly in the street talking to someone.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The McCartney sisters say they thought there would be quick arrests since everyone, even the police, know who the main suspects are.

(on camera): And why do you think that hasn't happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intimidation.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): So far, witnesses have been too afraid to come forward.

(on camera): There was something like 70 people in this bar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 70 people in the bar, and nobody seen anything.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): After the murder, the senior IRA member at the pub allegedly ordered all forensic evidence cleaned up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then this individual then destroyed the weapon, destroyed the knife, seized CCTV (ph) footage and burned it, and burned the murderers clothes, and then went into the bar and told everyone in the bar that it was IRA business, and nobody was to say anything and that they saw nothing.

AMANPOUR: But Robert McCartney's murder was so brutal and senseless than many in the Catholic community came out for a rare public display of support for the family.

At least three members of Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, were also in the bar the night of the murder. They too say they saw nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They haven't come forward yet. On one level, Gerry Adams is saying people should come forward to the police ombudsman. He said himself he would do that, but yet his party members have not.

AMANPOUR: The McCartney sisters say the world should know the IRA is squandering its historic position as defender of Catholic rights.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This has all been dispelled by these individuals, by the officer that murdered Robert for no reason.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just takes people to stand up and say no, we're not having any more, and that's what we're doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't think for one moment we were going to have to go through this, but if it comes to it, we're going to have to do what other families in this country have had to do, and that will be (AUDIO GAP). The truth will come out.

AMANPOUR: When we return, their courage has landed them a visit to the White House this week, and how their courage might impact all of Northern Ireland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: We take a break. When we come back, a reversal of fortune for the IRA? Part two of Christiane's report.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that the IRA did not sanction Robert's murder, but it cannot be denied that members of the IRA did carry Robert's murder out. We believe that the IRA as an organization is responsible for bringing the murderers of Robert to justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I support the family. I'm 100 percent behind the family. I have gone as far as to give names to the police ombudsman myself. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sections of the media as well as political opponents of Sinn Fein have very opportunistically exploited this man's killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: The rise of Sinn Fein as a full partner in British and Irish politics depended on an informal understanding that insiders call constructive ambiguity. Most of the crucial figures agreed to overlook the relationship between Sinn Fein and the IRA. They agreed to overlook the IRA's refusal to disarm and agreed to overlook its alleged ongoing involvement in petty and organized crime.

Welcome back.

It was no secret, for example, that the IRA was widely believed to be involved in enormous and lucrative smuggling operations. By one estimate, one of every three cigarettes smoked in the province was brought in illegally by the IRA. But constructive ambiguity took a big hit with a bank heist just too big to overlook.

Once again, here' Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Belfast City Center, site of the biggest bank robbery in British history. 26.5 million pounds was stolen. That is more than $50 million.

Hugh Jordan (ph), a local crime correspondent, tells us how it happened just before Christmas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lorry was parked here, and the stuff was removed time after time and loaded onto the lorry right here.

AMANPOUR: They had inside help. This is a bank employee carrying out $2 million. He and another employee were forced to cooperate because their family members had been taken hostage the night before.

Hugh Jordan (ph) believes the IRA is increasingly turning Belfast into a mafia hub.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In many ways, it's Sicily without the sun. They now don't call the IRA the IRA any more, but the reference to the mafia is quite correct, because people now call them the Rafia (ph).

AMANPOUR: Northern Ireland's top police official blamed the IRA and the heist caused an uproar here and in the United States. But it's a murder a month later that is really causing the IRA to be challenged, perhaps even its very existence.

(on camera): Throughout the so-called troubles here, the IRA has been blamed for 1,800 killings, been involved in gun running, smuggling, in kneecappings and punishment beatings, but nothing has put it so on the defensive as the murder of Robert McCartney in this darkened alley in January.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The McCartney sisters have damaged the Republican movement, and Sinn Fein in particular, like never before, and it is because of the articulacy of the sisters. They were able to go on and state their case and demand justice for their brother.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Chief Constable Ord (ph), Northern Ireland's top police official, agrees.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When that murder took place, the one thing that no one thought would happen was the family standing up and being counting.

AMANPOUR: Ord (ph) is as frustrated as the family that nearly two months after the murder at this pub, no one has come forth with evidence. Those asked say they were in the lavatory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they must have a very large toilet. It's back to the same problem. It doesn't really matter where they were if they don't want to tell us what they saw.

AMANPOUR (on camera): They know the murderers. They're walking around in their community. Why can you not go and arrest them and bring them in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's very simple. We need evidence. We operate within the rule of law. What we need are statements from the witnesses, and that community is clearly not at that stage yet.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): That's because they are afraid of the IRA. But the McCartney sisters are demanding witnesses come forward. Their public campaign is pressuring both the IRA and its political wing, Sinn Fein.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that those people responsible for the murder of Robert McCartney should appear before a court and for me it couldn't happen soon enough. It is probably more in our interest that this issue is resolved than anybody else's given the difficulties that it has created.

AMANPOUR: Difficulties may be an understatement. For the first time in 10 years, Sinn Fein leaders Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams have not been invited to St. Patrick's Day at the White House. They have also been shunned by some of their biggest supporters in Congress and barred from fundraising in the United States this year.

(on camera): How do you think you'll be able to make amends, repair what look like fairly ruptured relations, with your big backers in the United States?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I still think an awful lot of people in Irish America and many other who have observed the Irish peace process, know that people like Gerry Adams and myself and others in the Sinn Fein leadership have put our hearts and soul into this process. We've risked our very lives for this process.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): While Sinn Fein gets the cold shoulder, the McCartney sisters, who will be meeting with President Bush, do not think Sinn Fein is doing enough to make witnesses come forward.

(on camera): Do you have a message for President Bush?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just the difficulty we're having getting justice for Robert.

ANNOUNCER: The Sunday Phone In with Harry Castles (ph).

HARRY CASTLES (ph), DJ: Good afternoon to Willy Frazier and Margaret Hill. Hello.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): In Belfast, there is some hope that the sister's bravery will encourage others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody now is taking heart in the fact that this family has the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the courage to stand up.

AMANPOUR: There is hope that the sister's stance will create a groundswell that leads to ending decades of violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stop beating our children up with a baseball bat. Stop kneecapping. We've had enough of it.

AMANPOUR: But such hopes for change have been dashed before and with no witness testimony yet, the killers are still free, living in the neighborhood.

(on camera): Are you afraid about they might come back and make you pay for this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean, as far as we're concerned, they've done their worst and the only thing we are afraid of is if these people aren't caught.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Belfast, Northern Ireland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: We have to take another break. When we come back, a closer look at the IRA. Who is in charge?

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED KENNEDY (D-MA): I personally believe that Gerry Adams wants to see the IRA disbanded, but I think there is a time when it is -- a time to hold them and a time to fold them, and we're overdue I terms of the disbandment of the IRA. A democratic party today that are part of the democratic West do not and should not and cannot have private armies and cannot be involved in criminality and violence, and this is, as I think the sisters have all pointed out, the golden opportunity for them to indicate once and for all and finally that they are going to separate themselves from that type of support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are totally committed to building this peace process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Worldwide, Gerry Adams has become the best known face of the Republican movement. He's long denied having any role in the IRA, but the Irish government now openly says that he's a senior leader of the group and knew of the robbery in advance.

Adams denies it and challenged authorities to arrest him if they think it is true.

Welcome back.

Gerry Adams has been doing a lot of explaining since the robbery and the McCartney murder.

He's also suggested that the IRA's time may be passed. In his own words, "The IRA should go back stage in a dignified way. Modern Republicans want to get the armed group to leave the stage," unquote.

Joining us now to talk about all of this is Naill O'Dowd, editor of New York's "Irish Voice" newspaper.

Thank you so much for being with us.

The image of the IRA, once naively represented as a protector of the Irish community and of the oppressed. That image now gone, isn't it?

NAILL O'DOWD, "IRISH VOICE": Well, it certainly has taken a temporary very bad hit, but you have to remember that on December 12, the IRA was ready to go out of business. A deal was about to be signed in Northern Ireland that would have brought an end to the IRA. That was specifically mentioned in the communiqu‚ that was ready.

At the last second, the Ulster Unionist leader Ian Paisley (ph) refused to accept that the IRA could go out of existence without photographs of their weapons being destroyed, which was not part of the original agreement.

So what do we have here? We have a situation where Gerry Adams is trying very hard to move the IRA to the point where they will disband. I think the killing of Robert McCartney is a watershed in the sense that it moves that day closer. If there is something good that came out of this heinous crime, it is that I believe the IRA will disband sooner rather than later, because of the odium that they earned from that killing.

GORANI: But there really is some evidence that, as we heard there in Christiane Amanpour's piece, people in Northern Ireland are starting to call the IRA not the IRA but the Rafia (ph) because of their alleged involvement in petty crime and organized crime and murders and killings and smuggling. This is not something that can go on, can it?

O'DOWD: No, but let's put it all in context. I mean, for 30 years you had -- or 25 years, you had terrible violence in Northern Ireland. You woke up to stories about kids being blown up, soldiers being killed, IRA volunteers being blown up. Over 3,000 people lost their lives, tens of thousands were injured.

That's all gone away. That all stopped in 1994. It didn't stop completely and probably never will in terms of the society there, but it stopped to the point where last year was the most peaceful year in the history of Northern Ireland since the troubles.

Yes, they are dealing with issues now, very real issues, about a mafia element in the IRA -- no question there is one -- but I think it is a lesser problem than what we had to deal with just a short time ago.

A peace process is a very difficult rock to roll up the hill, and you have within that peace process 90 elements within the IRA and within the British government, within the British army, who don't want this process to work. And unfortunately, the result is that it becomes a lot tougher than we would like to bring the final solution together.

GORANI: Now, Naill, what happens if -- and the Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA -- becomes discredited to the point where members of the Catholic community in Ireland start to doubt its legitimacy? What happens politically then?

O'DOWD: Well, I actually don't think it will ever happen, because Sinn Fein have been increasing their vote in each successive election since the peace process began.

Indeed, just last Saturday in the Irish Republic they increased their votes despite all the trouble about Robert McCartney and the Belfast bank raid.

So I don't think that will happen, but what will happen is they will make themselves irrelevant, because the two prime ministers in Ireland and Britain have made it clear that they will go forward without them if the IRA does not disband. They are correct to do that, because as your piece pointed out, you can't have a political party that also has a private army.

So unless they disband, I have no doubt at all that the British and Irish governments will push ahead on their own with the other parties in Northern Ireland, basically, you know, excluding Sinn Fein to the margins, and I think that will be a disastrous situation if it happens.

GORANI; Who heads the IRA?

O'DOWD: That's a good question. People speculate about that constantly. They have something called the Army Council. There are seven members. You get a lot of speculation in the media about who is on it and who is not.

I honestly, you know, cannot tell you, after years of looking at this, I don't think that it is frankly very relevant anymore.

What we need is for Sinn Fein to become the only political arm of the Republican movement, that there is no military arm. And if that happens, I think it won't -- it will be irrelevant who did run the IRA.

GORANI: I just have to insist on this point. From the outside looking in, it seems like we're hearing many voices in Northern Ireland saying, you know, the IRA has gone too far. We don't want the Catholic community to be represented by a bunch of thugs. We're hearing that among some in the Catholic community.

As a result of that, do you think that alternative political representation to the Catholic community could emerge?

O'DOWD: No, I really don't. I mean, Sinn Fein has been growing in strength to the point where they are the largest nationalist party, largest Catholic party, in Northern Ireland. That has been a slow but steady climb, and I think people in Northern Ireland remember one thing: Gerry Adams delivered an IRA cease-fire, a phenomenal act which meant as someone has remarked, over 1,000 people are alive today who probably would have been dead if the troubles continues.

That stands him in great stead, not just in Ireland but in America, where many Irish Americans see him as the single person who can bring this thing to a close. And weakening Gerry Adams makes no sense whatsoever in terms of either the Irish or British government (AUDIO GAP) or anyone else. Gerry Adams has made it clear on this visit to America that he will work night and day to make the IRA disband, and I certainly think that he is the only one that can succeed in doing that.

GORANI: Naill O'Dowd, editor of New York's "Irish Voice," many thanks for joining us here on INSIGHT.

That's it for this edition of the show. I'm Hala Gorani.

Remember, we like to hear from you. Send us your thoughts on the show to Insight@CNN.com.

For now, though, the news continues. You are with CNN.

END

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Aired March 16, 2005 - 23:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: In the name of the sisters. Five tenacious women shame the IRA into acknowledging a murder. The hard men who took on police and politicians face the scorn of their own people.
Hello and welcome. I'm Hala Gorani.

To many Catholics in Northern Ireland, the IRA has long had the kind of endearing nickname you might give a member of the family, Ra (ph). Now more and more people are calling it by a different nickname, bringing to mind quite a different family, the Rafia (ph).

Things have changed in Northern Ireland. The political process seems paralyzed, but in the last few years there has been a dramatic change nonetheless. Decades of political violence have just about come to an end. The IRA, the Irish Republican Army, has not given up its weapons or its war, and in two important episodes, a bar brawl and a bank robbery, it may have shot itself in the foot.

On our program today, the IRA's troubles.

Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Surrounded by TV crews wherever they go, these are perhaps the most famous sisters in the world right now, Donna, Gemma, Catherine and Claire McCartney. Their daring fight to bring their brother Robert's murderers to justice has made them instant celebrities, because even as they are snapped by "People" magazine, they know they are pursuing some of the most dangerous people in the world, members of the Irish Republican Army, the IRA.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just keeping thinking of Robert, and how important it is to get these people to court.

AMANPOUR: And that's what they'll tell President Bush when they meet him at the White House on St. Patrick's Day.

We sat down with the McCartney sisters as they were about to leave Belfast. Even today, nearly two months later, talking of their brother's murder reduces them to tears.

They tell us that witnesses say that Robert and his friend, Brendan Devine, were having a few drinks in this Belfast pub January 30 when a senior IRA man accused them of insulting one of his friends.

Claire, Robert's younger sister, says that she was told he and his friend, Brendan Devine apologized and bought them a round of drinks.

CLAIRE MCCARTNEY, SISTER OF ROBERT MCCARTNEY: At which point the senior Republican said, "Do you know who I am" and Brendan Devine says, "I don't care who you are."

And then the next thing, there was a bottle broke on Brendan Devine's head and a bottle stuck in his neck, and his head was yanked back, and his throat was cut.

AMANPOUR: That's when all hell broke loose. Witnesses told the sisters that Robert got his bleeding, injured friend out of the bar, but a group of men followed them.

CLAIRE MCCARTNEY: And at least five or six of them pursued Robert up an entry, beating them with sticks, and.

AMANPOUR: Claire can't finish the story because it's too hard to talk about what happened next. Witnesses have told them their brother was beaten and stabbed and men even jumped on his face.

They left Robert and his friend Brendan for dead in the alley behind the pub. Brendan survived his severe wounds. But Robert died in hospital with his sisters at his battered side.

Besides his sisters, Robert left behind a fiancee and their two young children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can't believe he's gone, you know.

AMANPOUR: Now that he's gone, though, the five sisters have gone all out to seek answers. They even met with the IRA Council.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We asked the IRA Council why, what was the reason for killing Robert, and they responded quite promptly there was no reason.

AMANPOUR: There seems to be no doubt the killers were members of the IRA, because afterwards the IRA made the sisters an extraordinary offer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were prepared to use the old traditional IRA method.

AMANPOUR (on camera): What is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Execution.

AMANPOUR: They told you that they would execute his killers?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you said no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. We decided that justice was better for Robert in the conventional method, which is bringing them through the courts.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The sisters were in fact disgusted by that offer and so were many in Northern Ireland, but so far they have had no luck getting the killers to court.

(on camera): You know who did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You know who these killers are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Do you see them? Are they walking around?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Where are they?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're in the streets. I passed one the other day, the senior Republica, and I passed him, he was coming back from the local shop, standing brazenly in the street talking to someone.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The McCartney sisters say they thought there would be quick arrests since everyone, even the police, know who the main suspects are.

(on camera): And why do you think that hasn't happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intimidation.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): So far, witnesses have been too afraid to come forward.

(on camera): There was something like 70 people in this bar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 70 people in the bar, and nobody seen anything.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): After the murder, the senior IRA member at the pub allegedly ordered all forensic evidence cleaned up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then this individual then destroyed the weapon, destroyed the knife, seized CCTV (ph) footage and burned it, and burned the murderers clothes, and then went into the bar and told everyone in the bar that it was IRA business, and nobody was to say anything and that they saw nothing.

AMANPOUR: But Robert McCartney's murder was so brutal and senseless than many in the Catholic community came out for a rare public display of support for the family.

At least three members of Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, were also in the bar the night of the murder. They too say they saw nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They haven't come forward yet. On one level, Gerry Adams is saying people should come forward to the police ombudsman. He said himself he would do that, but yet his party members have not.

AMANPOUR: The McCartney sisters say the world should know the IRA is squandering its historic position as defender of Catholic rights.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This has all been dispelled by these individuals, by the officer that murdered Robert for no reason.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just takes people to stand up and say no, we're not having any more, and that's what we're doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't think for one moment we were going to have to go through this, but if it comes to it, we're going to have to do what other families in this country have had to do, and that will be (AUDIO GAP). The truth will come out.

AMANPOUR: When we return, their courage has landed them a visit to the White House this week, and how their courage might impact all of Northern Ireland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: We take a break. When we come back, a reversal of fortune for the IRA? Part two of Christiane's report.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that the IRA did not sanction Robert's murder, but it cannot be denied that members of the IRA did carry Robert's murder out. We believe that the IRA as an organization is responsible for bringing the murderers of Robert to justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I support the family. I'm 100 percent behind the family. I have gone as far as to give names to the police ombudsman myself. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sections of the media as well as political opponents of Sinn Fein have very opportunistically exploited this man's killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: The rise of Sinn Fein as a full partner in British and Irish politics depended on an informal understanding that insiders call constructive ambiguity. Most of the crucial figures agreed to overlook the relationship between Sinn Fein and the IRA. They agreed to overlook the IRA's refusal to disarm and agreed to overlook its alleged ongoing involvement in petty and organized crime.

Welcome back.

It was no secret, for example, that the IRA was widely believed to be involved in enormous and lucrative smuggling operations. By one estimate, one of every three cigarettes smoked in the province was brought in illegally by the IRA. But constructive ambiguity took a big hit with a bank heist just too big to overlook.

Once again, here' Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Belfast City Center, site of the biggest bank robbery in British history. 26.5 million pounds was stolen. That is more than $50 million.

Hugh Jordan (ph), a local crime correspondent, tells us how it happened just before Christmas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lorry was parked here, and the stuff was removed time after time and loaded onto the lorry right here.

AMANPOUR: They had inside help. This is a bank employee carrying out $2 million. He and another employee were forced to cooperate because their family members had been taken hostage the night before.

Hugh Jordan (ph) believes the IRA is increasingly turning Belfast into a mafia hub.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In many ways, it's Sicily without the sun. They now don't call the IRA the IRA any more, but the reference to the mafia is quite correct, because people now call them the Rafia (ph).

AMANPOUR: Northern Ireland's top police official blamed the IRA and the heist caused an uproar here and in the United States. But it's a murder a month later that is really causing the IRA to be challenged, perhaps even its very existence.

(on camera): Throughout the so-called troubles here, the IRA has been blamed for 1,800 killings, been involved in gun running, smuggling, in kneecappings and punishment beatings, but nothing has put it so on the defensive as the murder of Robert McCartney in this darkened alley in January.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The McCartney sisters have damaged the Republican movement, and Sinn Fein in particular, like never before, and it is because of the articulacy of the sisters. They were able to go on and state their case and demand justice for their brother.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Chief Constable Ord (ph), Northern Ireland's top police official, agrees.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When that murder took place, the one thing that no one thought would happen was the family standing up and being counting.

AMANPOUR: Ord (ph) is as frustrated as the family that nearly two months after the murder at this pub, no one has come forth with evidence. Those asked say they were in the lavatory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they must have a very large toilet. It's back to the same problem. It doesn't really matter where they were if they don't want to tell us what they saw.

AMANPOUR (on camera): They know the murderers. They're walking around in their community. Why can you not go and arrest them and bring them in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's very simple. We need evidence. We operate within the rule of law. What we need are statements from the witnesses, and that community is clearly not at that stage yet.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): That's because they are afraid of the IRA. But the McCartney sisters are demanding witnesses come forward. Their public campaign is pressuring both the IRA and its political wing, Sinn Fein.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that those people responsible for the murder of Robert McCartney should appear before a court and for me it couldn't happen soon enough. It is probably more in our interest that this issue is resolved than anybody else's given the difficulties that it has created.

AMANPOUR: Difficulties may be an understatement. For the first time in 10 years, Sinn Fein leaders Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams have not been invited to St. Patrick's Day at the White House. They have also been shunned by some of their biggest supporters in Congress and barred from fundraising in the United States this year.

(on camera): How do you think you'll be able to make amends, repair what look like fairly ruptured relations, with your big backers in the United States?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I still think an awful lot of people in Irish America and many other who have observed the Irish peace process, know that people like Gerry Adams and myself and others in the Sinn Fein leadership have put our hearts and soul into this process. We've risked our very lives for this process.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): While Sinn Fein gets the cold shoulder, the McCartney sisters, who will be meeting with President Bush, do not think Sinn Fein is doing enough to make witnesses come forward.

(on camera): Do you have a message for President Bush?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just the difficulty we're having getting justice for Robert.

ANNOUNCER: The Sunday Phone In with Harry Castles (ph).

HARRY CASTLES (ph), DJ: Good afternoon to Willy Frazier and Margaret Hill. Hello.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): In Belfast, there is some hope that the sister's bravery will encourage others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody now is taking heart in the fact that this family has the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the courage to stand up.

AMANPOUR: There is hope that the sister's stance will create a groundswell that leads to ending decades of violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stop beating our children up with a baseball bat. Stop kneecapping. We've had enough of it.

AMANPOUR: But such hopes for change have been dashed before and with no witness testimony yet, the killers are still free, living in the neighborhood.

(on camera): Are you afraid about they might come back and make you pay for this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean, as far as we're concerned, they've done their worst and the only thing we are afraid of is if these people aren't caught.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Belfast, Northern Ireland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: We have to take another break. When we come back, a closer look at the IRA. Who is in charge?

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED KENNEDY (D-MA): I personally believe that Gerry Adams wants to see the IRA disbanded, but I think there is a time when it is -- a time to hold them and a time to fold them, and we're overdue I terms of the disbandment of the IRA. A democratic party today that are part of the democratic West do not and should not and cannot have private armies and cannot be involved in criminality and violence, and this is, as I think the sisters have all pointed out, the golden opportunity for them to indicate once and for all and finally that they are going to separate themselves from that type of support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are totally committed to building this peace process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Worldwide, Gerry Adams has become the best known face of the Republican movement. He's long denied having any role in the IRA, but the Irish government now openly says that he's a senior leader of the group and knew of the robbery in advance.

Adams denies it and challenged authorities to arrest him if they think it is true.

Welcome back.

Gerry Adams has been doing a lot of explaining since the robbery and the McCartney murder.

He's also suggested that the IRA's time may be passed. In his own words, "The IRA should go back stage in a dignified way. Modern Republicans want to get the armed group to leave the stage," unquote.

Joining us now to talk about all of this is Naill O'Dowd, editor of New York's "Irish Voice" newspaper.

Thank you so much for being with us.

The image of the IRA, once naively represented as a protector of the Irish community and of the oppressed. That image now gone, isn't it?

NAILL O'DOWD, "IRISH VOICE": Well, it certainly has taken a temporary very bad hit, but you have to remember that on December 12, the IRA was ready to go out of business. A deal was about to be signed in Northern Ireland that would have brought an end to the IRA. That was specifically mentioned in the communiqu‚ that was ready.

At the last second, the Ulster Unionist leader Ian Paisley (ph) refused to accept that the IRA could go out of existence without photographs of their weapons being destroyed, which was not part of the original agreement.

So what do we have here? We have a situation where Gerry Adams is trying very hard to move the IRA to the point where they will disband. I think the killing of Robert McCartney is a watershed in the sense that it moves that day closer. If there is something good that came out of this heinous crime, it is that I believe the IRA will disband sooner rather than later, because of the odium that they earned from that killing.

GORANI: But there really is some evidence that, as we heard there in Christiane Amanpour's piece, people in Northern Ireland are starting to call the IRA not the IRA but the Rafia (ph) because of their alleged involvement in petty crime and organized crime and murders and killings and smuggling. This is not something that can go on, can it?

O'DOWD: No, but let's put it all in context. I mean, for 30 years you had -- or 25 years, you had terrible violence in Northern Ireland. You woke up to stories about kids being blown up, soldiers being killed, IRA volunteers being blown up. Over 3,000 people lost their lives, tens of thousands were injured.

That's all gone away. That all stopped in 1994. It didn't stop completely and probably never will in terms of the society there, but it stopped to the point where last year was the most peaceful year in the history of Northern Ireland since the troubles.

Yes, they are dealing with issues now, very real issues, about a mafia element in the IRA -- no question there is one -- but I think it is a lesser problem than what we had to deal with just a short time ago.

A peace process is a very difficult rock to roll up the hill, and you have within that peace process 90 elements within the IRA and within the British government, within the British army, who don't want this process to work. And unfortunately, the result is that it becomes a lot tougher than we would like to bring the final solution together.

GORANI: Now, Naill, what happens if -- and the Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA -- becomes discredited to the point where members of the Catholic community in Ireland start to doubt its legitimacy? What happens politically then?

O'DOWD: Well, I actually don't think it will ever happen, because Sinn Fein have been increasing their vote in each successive election since the peace process began.

Indeed, just last Saturday in the Irish Republic they increased their votes despite all the trouble about Robert McCartney and the Belfast bank raid.

So I don't think that will happen, but what will happen is they will make themselves irrelevant, because the two prime ministers in Ireland and Britain have made it clear that they will go forward without them if the IRA does not disband. They are correct to do that, because as your piece pointed out, you can't have a political party that also has a private army.

So unless they disband, I have no doubt at all that the British and Irish governments will push ahead on their own with the other parties in Northern Ireland, basically, you know, excluding Sinn Fein to the margins, and I think that will be a disastrous situation if it happens.

GORANI; Who heads the IRA?

O'DOWD: That's a good question. People speculate about that constantly. They have something called the Army Council. There are seven members. You get a lot of speculation in the media about who is on it and who is not.

I honestly, you know, cannot tell you, after years of looking at this, I don't think that it is frankly very relevant anymore.

What we need is for Sinn Fein to become the only political arm of the Republican movement, that there is no military arm. And if that happens, I think it won't -- it will be irrelevant who did run the IRA.

GORANI: I just have to insist on this point. From the outside looking in, it seems like we're hearing many voices in Northern Ireland saying, you know, the IRA has gone too far. We don't want the Catholic community to be represented by a bunch of thugs. We're hearing that among some in the Catholic community.

As a result of that, do you think that alternative political representation to the Catholic community could emerge?

O'DOWD: No, I really don't. I mean, Sinn Fein has been growing in strength to the point where they are the largest nationalist party, largest Catholic party, in Northern Ireland. That has been a slow but steady climb, and I think people in Northern Ireland remember one thing: Gerry Adams delivered an IRA cease-fire, a phenomenal act which meant as someone has remarked, over 1,000 people are alive today who probably would have been dead if the troubles continues.

That stands him in great stead, not just in Ireland but in America, where many Irish Americans see him as the single person who can bring this thing to a close. And weakening Gerry Adams makes no sense whatsoever in terms of either the Irish or British government (AUDIO GAP) or anyone else. Gerry Adams has made it clear on this visit to America that he will work night and day to make the IRA disband, and I certainly think that he is the only one that can succeed in doing that.

GORANI: Naill O'Dowd, editor of New York's "Irish Voice," many thanks for joining us here on INSIGHT.

That's it for this edition of the show. I'm Hala Gorani.

Remember, we like to hear from you. Send us your thoughts on the show to Insight@CNN.com.

For now, though, the news continues. You are with CNN.

END

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