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Insight
Post-Occupation Lebanon
Aired March 17, 2005 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: Refashioning a country of factions and fragments. If Syria really does withdraw from Lebanon, will it be left in peace, or in pieces?
Hello and welcome, from Washington.
There are 18 officially recognizes religious communities in Lebanon. They have rivalries dating back centuries. So they have learned the hard way to hold their country together with careful compromise, dividing up and reserving seats, for example, in the Lebanese parliament, jobs in civil service, and the most powerful offices in government for different religious factions.
Lebanon's parliament has 128 seats divided evenly. There are 64 Christian MPs, 64 Muslims, and within those two categories are 11 different factions with reserved seats. The top three sects on the Christian sign, the Maronite Catholics with 34 reserved seats, the Greek Orthodox followed by it Greek Catholics. On the Muslim side, the Shias have 27 reserved seats, the Sunnis 27 and the Druze 8. But also in the max are Armenians, Alawas (ph) and other minorities.
Even with all that math, the Lebanese factions fought a civil war in the 70s and 80s that it took Syria to put to an end. Now the Syrian occupation looks like it may be ending and the Lebanese themselves will have to keep the puzzle from coming apart. We've come to Washington to meet one of their crucial leaders who is visiting here as well.
On our program today, Lebanon, the sum of its parts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Lebanese peacemaker, 84-year old Patriarch Nasrallah Sfeir, spiritual leader of an estimated 800,000 Maronite Catholic Christians.
Heading one of the countries largest and most influential religious groups. Holding opinions that count at the highest level.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pivot of the future peace in Lebanon, voiced not only for his community but as the bridge to other communities.
SADLER: A bridge to old enemies, including Walid Jumblatt, once one of Lebanon's most notorious warlords. He's leader of the Druze community, an offshoot of Islam.
They're unlikely alliance an extraordinary twist in Lebanon's long history of religious communities sharing and competing for power in mystifying an often explosive ways.
Lebanon's civil war lasted some 15 ruinous year during the 1970s and 80s. Power sharing collapsed. Christians fought Muslims in ruthless battles for supremacy. But since the guns fell silent, piece enforced by a Syrian military presence has lasted almost as long as the conflict raged.
(on camera): It is hard to find war-ravaged pockets of the old Beirut, but while physical damage has been mostly repaired, psychological scars have not been heeled.
(voice-over): Memories of a violent history and fear of being marginalized or persecuted have led to a complex formula for power sharing based on religion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a system based on a consensus between communities, between (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So the president is Maronite. The prime minister is western Sunni and the speaker of the parliament is Muslim Shia. I, as a Druze, the maximum that I can achieve is to be MP or minister.
SADLER: The top rank of power is held by President Emile Lahoud, the leading Maronite Christian, a staunch alley of Syria, whose rule was extended last year when Syria's allies in parliament here manipulated the constitution, unhinging, say opponents, the delicate balance of power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it is not working because the Syrians decided, stupidly, to enforce Lahoud as the sole representative of the Lebanese people for president. Well, it back fired.
SADLER: In a dramatic and unpredictable way.
Anti-Syrian resentment muted for decades erupted on the streets of Beirut in the wake of a reviled political assassination, Lebanon's most powerful Sunni Muslim leader, five-time former prime minister Rafik Hariri blown up by a massive bomb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Syria has been the worst (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Lebanon because it has, in order to control the system, always stoked hatred between the Lebanese.
SADLER: Instead of stirring hate, Hariri's murder gave Lebanese common cause. The Holy Bible and the Holy Koran where displayed near the tomb. With unprecedented displays of communal grief bridging the sectarian divide, a rare expression of unity that could fade with time unless Lebanese seize the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where this extraordinary move towards raising the differences resulting from being a Christian or a Muslim -- this is where we need to work quickly to a new phase, a new level of Lebanese co-existence.
SADLER: Coexistence that could be energized say some observers, if Syria is ready to give up its classic tactics of divide and rule.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the past 29 years, Syria has diligently created its own loyalist political class in the country, and by relying on that class it has in fact stymied any real attempts at national reconciliation.
SADLER: Now most Christians, if not President Lahoud, have come together with Sunni Muslims and Druze to try to break Syria's stranglehold. Drawing up to 1 million supporters on the streets of Beirut, but Syria can still mobilize its allies too. Hezbollah derives its power from Lebanese Shia Muslims and has strong ties to both Syria and Iran. It brought an estimated half-million supporters onto the streets of the capital.
Condemned as terrorists by the United States, Hezbollah remains a powerful element in Lebanon's political kaleidoscope. In Beirut's southern suburbs, it is practically an armed mini-state within the state, refusing to disarm. It's second in command warning that others ignore Hezbollah at their peril.
"If we do not take part in the decision-making because of other parties," explains Sheikh Naim Kassem, "It could become a big problem.
A problem that is this country's curse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As long as this sectarian system will persist in Lebanon, the future will not be very different from the past. We are going to be going again and again every 10 to 20 years into conflict, sometimes political, sometimes actual war conflicts.
SADLER: And Hezbollah may be the key to ending this conflict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hezbollah does not represent all of the Shiites, but they are a major factor. Plus, after all, if it satisfies Syria to include Hezbollah in the political process, why not?
SADLER: Ultimately, this veteran of Lebanese politics argues it's only the Syrians who can break this vicious cycle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it is up to the sitting president, the sitting leadership, to say, OK, we need a new relationship with Lebanon. Can they do it? Can they deliver this compromise, this historical compromise? I don't know.
SADLER: That uncertainly fuels the protests, staggering in size. Contagious protests, organized by opposing camps, propelling the Lebanese struggle as far as the White House.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are hopefully the Lebanese (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with their friends around the world will be able to build a better future in a free, independent, pluralistic and sovereign Lebanon.
SADLER: A cedar revolution that Syria and its allies hope will collapse under the weight of history, but one that has already opened the floodgates for change.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Beirut.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, my conversation with the Lebanese patriarch.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRIARCH NASRALLAH SFEIR, LEBANESE MARONITE CHURCH: I am against Syria when Syria is in Lebanon. I have said that Syria must be in Syria and Lebanon must be in Lebanon and our common interests consists to have the best relations as two neighbors, two brothers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: Cardinal rule. The Maronites are just one community in the fragile mosaic of Lebanon, but their leader exercises enormous influence beyond Christian ranks, in the opposition to the Syrian occupation.
Welcome back.
Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir is the patriarch of the Maronite Church and a cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, with whom Maronites have a long and close association. But the patriarch has also been very (AUDIO GAP), calling years ago for the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon, and he tends to be consulted when the opposition gathers to consider its next move.
Wednesday, as we saw in Brent Sadler's report, he was invited to the White House to talk about developments in his country, and a short time ago I had a chance to sit down with him here in Washington. We talked about Lebanon's old divisions and its new day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SFEIR: The Lebanese have learned their lesson from the war, and they are suffering until now from this war. There is no envy to repeat this example.
MANN: The unity of the opposition surprises many people. These were groups that were fighting each other, killing each other, not so long ago.
Are you surprised -- are you suspicious about how strong this unity will be?
SFEIR: I'm not surprised, but this unity was difficult to do, to make. But the assassination of Hariri has put together Muslims and Christians who profess against this assassination, and so this opposition has been so huge that for other people it is an admonition for what has been done.
MANN: A member of the Lebanese parliament told our bureau chief in Beirut, and I'm going to quote you his words because they are very striking. "The religious sect always comes first, and unfortunately the country always comes second."
SFEIR: Yes, it is true, and I appeal always that the Christians and Muslims be together to protest against this situation, and actually it is done. And it is good thing for Lebanon, as such, but we can say that there are many groups of Shiites, of Sunnis, of moderates (ph), also anti- Christians, who are not especially accepting of this unity. But the unity is a fact.
MANN: Let me ask you a question about unity. The government, the president and the prime minister, want a government of national unity. The Maronite bishops say there should also be a government of national unity that will carry the country until the next elections. The opposition refuses to join the government of national unity until (AUDIO GAP).
You are a very influential man.
SFEIR: It is a delicate question, I know, but I say that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has made an appeal to the opposition to participate in the government. The opposition says that it is useless to participate if the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will dictate their thoughts or their ideas on the full government.
But if they have the chance to participate with a great number, it will be possible.
MANN: Both sides look to you, though. The prime minister has said openly that he will seek your involvement and members of the opposition listen to your council. What would you advise the prime minister? What would you advise them?
SFEIR: I must do that. I am a churchman, a cardinal (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I have a word to say about that, but it is up to them to make a decision.
MANN: So much is in play, so many things may change. Some people believe that Hezbollah may be in a position to become a much stronger force in Lebanon than it is today.
SFEIR: Yes, it is true. It is a strong formation and until now it has made efforts to oblige Israel, to withdraw from south Lebanon, and there has been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his force, but as I have said, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the opposition or the resistance, it is not an agent of the state. If there is a state, it is up to the state to give protection to all her citizens. And so logically, Hezbollah must be disarmed and adopt the political life as the others.
MANN: If Syria withdraws from Lebanon, what is the prospect for peace with Israel?
SFEIR: I can't say that Lebanon will be the first to sign a peace with Israel because, as you know, the Lebanon is the weakest country in the region. And after all of the Arab countries have met (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this peace, Lebanon will be the last one to do so.
MANN: You make it sound as though Lebanon could make peace with Israel except that it is afraid of its Arab neighbors.
SFEIR: Yes, because he can't be the one to make the peace with Israel before the others.
MANN: But the others already have. Egypt and Jordan and the Palestinians.
SFEIR: It is not enough. There are other countries who --
MANN: Syria?
SFEIR: Syria, yes, Syria, but others also.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MANN: Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir, patriarch of the Maronite Church.
We take another break. When we come back, more on post-occupation politics.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERJE ROED-LARSEN, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO LEBANON: -- expects the full withdrawal of all Syrian troops, including the intelligence apparatus and military assets, to take place before the Lebanese parliamentary elections. The secretary-general also stressed the great importance that he puts or emphasizes that these elections be free and fair and take place as scheduled.
The secretary-general urges all concerned parties to work together to safeguard the stability and national unity of the republic of Lebanon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: All sides in Lebanon agree the country needs the elections that are slated to be held before the end of May. But there is a problem. As we have heard, Lebanese Prime Minister Omar Karami is trying to put together a government of national unity with the opposition, and the opposition is holding out. A new government has to be in place, though, to ask the assembly to pass an electoral law at least a month before any vote can be held.
Welcome back.
For the last decade-and-a-half, Syria has chosen who will run Lebanon and how it will be run. How will the Lebanese fair on their own?
Joining us now is Hisham Melhem, Washington bureau chief for the Lebanese newspaper "An-Nahar."
Thanks so much for being with us. Nice to see you face to face for a change.
How much are politics going to change if the Lebanese really get a chance to run their own country independently?
HISHAM MELHEM, "AN-NAHAR": Well, a lot. It will be really a radical departure. For the first time in 30 years, since the end of the civil war, you will have different kind of politics in Lebanon.
While the Lebanese democracy before the civil war was not idea, it was practically impossible to reform the Lebanese system to get rid of the cancer on the Lebanese body politic, which is sectarianism, while the Syrians were in the country playing on the differences between the various groups and various political blocks and religious affiliations. So now we will have a chance, the Lebanese will have a chance, to take another critical look at their own system, at their own past shortcomings, and to see if they can develop into a full-fledged democracy. They were not able to do so while the Syrians were with them.
MANN: You've dealt with two very important issues there. One of them is the civil war, the other one is sectarianism. Let's start with the civil war. If and when the Syrians leave, is all of that going to just be forgotten by the people of Lebanon, the murders, the massacres, the crimes that were committed? How does Lebanon stay peaceful now?
MELHEM: Unfortunately, the Lebanese did not do what the South Africans have done after the end of apartheid, to form truth and reconciliation committee of sorts, to really talk about healing the wounds and to talk critically about their own shortcomings, because, after all, while regional powers and outside powers were involved, the actual killing was being done by the Lebanese themselves, sometimes on behalf of others, unfortunately.
So we have to confront that, we have to confront our own political demons, so this is one first step. I'm not concerned that the country will slide back to civil strife. Every group has been disarmed with the exception of Hezbollah, and I think Hezbollah is led by people who are conscious of the fact that they are not going to make a mistake like that.
And as the patriarch said, various Lebanese groups have learned a few lessons from the war. No one group can have supremacy over the others, and that's' why we have to deal with that sectarian system.
MANN: Let me ask you about that, then, because it is an extraordinary thing to think that in the 21st century you could actually organize the politics of a country so explicitly on the basis of different religious groups, and so many different religious groups.
It's been a matter of official policy for decades that Lebanon should somehow --
MELHEM: Since the birth of the modern day state of Lebanon.
MANN: But it hasn't put it away. Is it possible to imagine Lebanon in the near future saying anyone who is qualified and who receives legal authority will be president, anyone who is qualified can be prime minister, anyone can be speaker, whatever their religion? Or is it going to have to be the separation that we have seen?
MELHEM: Before the civil war, we were going in that direction. The youth of Lebanon, the students and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) professional communities, were moving in that direction. Sort of a liberal trend, if you will, kind of a progressive trend, in society. This was destroyed because of the civil war and many people who were so called progressive returned to their cocoon, to their own, you know almost tribal affiliations.
Now with this popular movement that you have seen in Lebanon, the youth of Lebanon, Christians, Muslims, Druze, Shiite, others, talking about belonging to one country, there is a growing sense of belonging to a nation called Lebanon. Nobody wants to put an end to this country, to unite it with (AUDIO GAP) or Arab world and nobody wants to cut it up, a group for the Maronites or the Shia. This is healthy in itself, but we have to build on it.
MANN: If there were an election today, would it end up looking like a census, all of the Shia would vote for Shia-backed candidates, all of the Maronites would vote for Maronite-backed candidates, would it be that simple?
MELHEM: I mean, the majority would probably vote according to their own religious affiliations, unfortunately, and there is a problem with quick elections, because most of the Lebanese parliamentarians today owe their jobs and their positions to Syria, because Syria has penetrated every community in Lebanon, and they're still powerful through their Lebanese friends, because many people in government in Lebanon as well as in the Parliament are beholden to Syria. They owe Syria their jobs in a way, and their future probably depends on the Syrians remaining or leaving Lebanon.
So, I mean, you're right. Ending sectarianism is a long process, and it is going to take a long time, but definitely, it was impossible to do while the Syrians were there, while Lebanon was being hostage to the Arab- Israeli conflict. When the Syrians are out, then Hezbollah has to confront certain realities, OK? The resistance will be over because the Israelis left Lebanon, then if Hezbollah is going to liberate Jerusalem, that is something for the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world, not for a group that is acting today as a state within a state.
Then there will be pressure from within the Shia community for Hezbollah to become a full-fledged political power in Lebanon, and again to come up with a program to solve Lebanon's real problems: unemployment, education, healthcare.
MANN: It could then become a country like any other.
MELHEM: Exactly.
MANN: Hisham Melhem, thanks very much for this.
That's INSIGHT for this day, from Washington. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.
END
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Aired March 17, 2005 - 23:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: Refashioning a country of factions and fragments. If Syria really does withdraw from Lebanon, will it be left in peace, or in pieces?
Hello and welcome, from Washington.
There are 18 officially recognizes religious communities in Lebanon. They have rivalries dating back centuries. So they have learned the hard way to hold their country together with careful compromise, dividing up and reserving seats, for example, in the Lebanese parliament, jobs in civil service, and the most powerful offices in government for different religious factions.
Lebanon's parliament has 128 seats divided evenly. There are 64 Christian MPs, 64 Muslims, and within those two categories are 11 different factions with reserved seats. The top three sects on the Christian sign, the Maronite Catholics with 34 reserved seats, the Greek Orthodox followed by it Greek Catholics. On the Muslim side, the Shias have 27 reserved seats, the Sunnis 27 and the Druze 8. But also in the max are Armenians, Alawas (ph) and other minorities.
Even with all that math, the Lebanese factions fought a civil war in the 70s and 80s that it took Syria to put to an end. Now the Syrian occupation looks like it may be ending and the Lebanese themselves will have to keep the puzzle from coming apart. We've come to Washington to meet one of their crucial leaders who is visiting here as well.
On our program today, Lebanon, the sum of its parts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Lebanese peacemaker, 84-year old Patriarch Nasrallah Sfeir, spiritual leader of an estimated 800,000 Maronite Catholic Christians.
Heading one of the countries largest and most influential religious groups. Holding opinions that count at the highest level.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pivot of the future peace in Lebanon, voiced not only for his community but as the bridge to other communities.
SADLER: A bridge to old enemies, including Walid Jumblatt, once one of Lebanon's most notorious warlords. He's leader of the Druze community, an offshoot of Islam.
They're unlikely alliance an extraordinary twist in Lebanon's long history of religious communities sharing and competing for power in mystifying an often explosive ways.
Lebanon's civil war lasted some 15 ruinous year during the 1970s and 80s. Power sharing collapsed. Christians fought Muslims in ruthless battles for supremacy. But since the guns fell silent, piece enforced by a Syrian military presence has lasted almost as long as the conflict raged.
(on camera): It is hard to find war-ravaged pockets of the old Beirut, but while physical damage has been mostly repaired, psychological scars have not been heeled.
(voice-over): Memories of a violent history and fear of being marginalized or persecuted have led to a complex formula for power sharing based on religion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a system based on a consensus between communities, between (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So the president is Maronite. The prime minister is western Sunni and the speaker of the parliament is Muslim Shia. I, as a Druze, the maximum that I can achieve is to be MP or minister.
SADLER: The top rank of power is held by President Emile Lahoud, the leading Maronite Christian, a staunch alley of Syria, whose rule was extended last year when Syria's allies in parliament here manipulated the constitution, unhinging, say opponents, the delicate balance of power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it is not working because the Syrians decided, stupidly, to enforce Lahoud as the sole representative of the Lebanese people for president. Well, it back fired.
SADLER: In a dramatic and unpredictable way.
Anti-Syrian resentment muted for decades erupted on the streets of Beirut in the wake of a reviled political assassination, Lebanon's most powerful Sunni Muslim leader, five-time former prime minister Rafik Hariri blown up by a massive bomb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Syria has been the worst (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Lebanon because it has, in order to control the system, always stoked hatred between the Lebanese.
SADLER: Instead of stirring hate, Hariri's murder gave Lebanese common cause. The Holy Bible and the Holy Koran where displayed near the tomb. With unprecedented displays of communal grief bridging the sectarian divide, a rare expression of unity that could fade with time unless Lebanese seize the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where this extraordinary move towards raising the differences resulting from being a Christian or a Muslim -- this is where we need to work quickly to a new phase, a new level of Lebanese co-existence.
SADLER: Coexistence that could be energized say some observers, if Syria is ready to give up its classic tactics of divide and rule.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the past 29 years, Syria has diligently created its own loyalist political class in the country, and by relying on that class it has in fact stymied any real attempts at national reconciliation.
SADLER: Now most Christians, if not President Lahoud, have come together with Sunni Muslims and Druze to try to break Syria's stranglehold. Drawing up to 1 million supporters on the streets of Beirut, but Syria can still mobilize its allies too. Hezbollah derives its power from Lebanese Shia Muslims and has strong ties to both Syria and Iran. It brought an estimated half-million supporters onto the streets of the capital.
Condemned as terrorists by the United States, Hezbollah remains a powerful element in Lebanon's political kaleidoscope. In Beirut's southern suburbs, it is practically an armed mini-state within the state, refusing to disarm. It's second in command warning that others ignore Hezbollah at their peril.
"If we do not take part in the decision-making because of other parties," explains Sheikh Naim Kassem, "It could become a big problem.
A problem that is this country's curse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As long as this sectarian system will persist in Lebanon, the future will not be very different from the past. We are going to be going again and again every 10 to 20 years into conflict, sometimes political, sometimes actual war conflicts.
SADLER: And Hezbollah may be the key to ending this conflict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hezbollah does not represent all of the Shiites, but they are a major factor. Plus, after all, if it satisfies Syria to include Hezbollah in the political process, why not?
SADLER: Ultimately, this veteran of Lebanese politics argues it's only the Syrians who can break this vicious cycle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it is up to the sitting president, the sitting leadership, to say, OK, we need a new relationship with Lebanon. Can they do it? Can they deliver this compromise, this historical compromise? I don't know.
SADLER: That uncertainly fuels the protests, staggering in size. Contagious protests, organized by opposing camps, propelling the Lebanese struggle as far as the White House.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are hopefully the Lebanese (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with their friends around the world will be able to build a better future in a free, independent, pluralistic and sovereign Lebanon.
SADLER: A cedar revolution that Syria and its allies hope will collapse under the weight of history, but one that has already opened the floodgates for change.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Beirut.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, my conversation with the Lebanese patriarch.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRIARCH NASRALLAH SFEIR, LEBANESE MARONITE CHURCH: I am against Syria when Syria is in Lebanon. I have said that Syria must be in Syria and Lebanon must be in Lebanon and our common interests consists to have the best relations as two neighbors, two brothers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: Cardinal rule. The Maronites are just one community in the fragile mosaic of Lebanon, but their leader exercises enormous influence beyond Christian ranks, in the opposition to the Syrian occupation.
Welcome back.
Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir is the patriarch of the Maronite Church and a cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, with whom Maronites have a long and close association. But the patriarch has also been very (AUDIO GAP), calling years ago for the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon, and he tends to be consulted when the opposition gathers to consider its next move.
Wednesday, as we saw in Brent Sadler's report, he was invited to the White House to talk about developments in his country, and a short time ago I had a chance to sit down with him here in Washington. We talked about Lebanon's old divisions and its new day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SFEIR: The Lebanese have learned their lesson from the war, and they are suffering until now from this war. There is no envy to repeat this example.
MANN: The unity of the opposition surprises many people. These were groups that were fighting each other, killing each other, not so long ago.
Are you surprised -- are you suspicious about how strong this unity will be?
SFEIR: I'm not surprised, but this unity was difficult to do, to make. But the assassination of Hariri has put together Muslims and Christians who profess against this assassination, and so this opposition has been so huge that for other people it is an admonition for what has been done.
MANN: A member of the Lebanese parliament told our bureau chief in Beirut, and I'm going to quote you his words because they are very striking. "The religious sect always comes first, and unfortunately the country always comes second."
SFEIR: Yes, it is true, and I appeal always that the Christians and Muslims be together to protest against this situation, and actually it is done. And it is good thing for Lebanon, as such, but we can say that there are many groups of Shiites, of Sunnis, of moderates (ph), also anti- Christians, who are not especially accepting of this unity. But the unity is a fact.
MANN: Let me ask you a question about unity. The government, the president and the prime minister, want a government of national unity. The Maronite bishops say there should also be a government of national unity that will carry the country until the next elections. The opposition refuses to join the government of national unity until (AUDIO GAP).
You are a very influential man.
SFEIR: It is a delicate question, I know, but I say that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has made an appeal to the opposition to participate in the government. The opposition says that it is useless to participate if the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will dictate their thoughts or their ideas on the full government.
But if they have the chance to participate with a great number, it will be possible.
MANN: Both sides look to you, though. The prime minister has said openly that he will seek your involvement and members of the opposition listen to your council. What would you advise the prime minister? What would you advise them?
SFEIR: I must do that. I am a churchman, a cardinal (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I have a word to say about that, but it is up to them to make a decision.
MANN: So much is in play, so many things may change. Some people believe that Hezbollah may be in a position to become a much stronger force in Lebanon than it is today.
SFEIR: Yes, it is true. It is a strong formation and until now it has made efforts to oblige Israel, to withdraw from south Lebanon, and there has been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his force, but as I have said, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the opposition or the resistance, it is not an agent of the state. If there is a state, it is up to the state to give protection to all her citizens. And so logically, Hezbollah must be disarmed and adopt the political life as the others.
MANN: If Syria withdraws from Lebanon, what is the prospect for peace with Israel?
SFEIR: I can't say that Lebanon will be the first to sign a peace with Israel because, as you know, the Lebanon is the weakest country in the region. And after all of the Arab countries have met (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this peace, Lebanon will be the last one to do so.
MANN: You make it sound as though Lebanon could make peace with Israel except that it is afraid of its Arab neighbors.
SFEIR: Yes, because he can't be the one to make the peace with Israel before the others.
MANN: But the others already have. Egypt and Jordan and the Palestinians.
SFEIR: It is not enough. There are other countries who --
MANN: Syria?
SFEIR: Syria, yes, Syria, but others also.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MANN: Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir, patriarch of the Maronite Church.
We take another break. When we come back, more on post-occupation politics.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERJE ROED-LARSEN, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO LEBANON: -- expects the full withdrawal of all Syrian troops, including the intelligence apparatus and military assets, to take place before the Lebanese parliamentary elections. The secretary-general also stressed the great importance that he puts or emphasizes that these elections be free and fair and take place as scheduled.
The secretary-general urges all concerned parties to work together to safeguard the stability and national unity of the republic of Lebanon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: All sides in Lebanon agree the country needs the elections that are slated to be held before the end of May. But there is a problem. As we have heard, Lebanese Prime Minister Omar Karami is trying to put together a government of national unity with the opposition, and the opposition is holding out. A new government has to be in place, though, to ask the assembly to pass an electoral law at least a month before any vote can be held.
Welcome back.
For the last decade-and-a-half, Syria has chosen who will run Lebanon and how it will be run. How will the Lebanese fair on their own?
Joining us now is Hisham Melhem, Washington bureau chief for the Lebanese newspaper "An-Nahar."
Thanks so much for being with us. Nice to see you face to face for a change.
How much are politics going to change if the Lebanese really get a chance to run their own country independently?
HISHAM MELHEM, "AN-NAHAR": Well, a lot. It will be really a radical departure. For the first time in 30 years, since the end of the civil war, you will have different kind of politics in Lebanon.
While the Lebanese democracy before the civil war was not idea, it was practically impossible to reform the Lebanese system to get rid of the cancer on the Lebanese body politic, which is sectarianism, while the Syrians were in the country playing on the differences between the various groups and various political blocks and religious affiliations. So now we will have a chance, the Lebanese will have a chance, to take another critical look at their own system, at their own past shortcomings, and to see if they can develop into a full-fledged democracy. They were not able to do so while the Syrians were with them.
MANN: You've dealt with two very important issues there. One of them is the civil war, the other one is sectarianism. Let's start with the civil war. If and when the Syrians leave, is all of that going to just be forgotten by the people of Lebanon, the murders, the massacres, the crimes that were committed? How does Lebanon stay peaceful now?
MELHEM: Unfortunately, the Lebanese did not do what the South Africans have done after the end of apartheid, to form truth and reconciliation committee of sorts, to really talk about healing the wounds and to talk critically about their own shortcomings, because, after all, while regional powers and outside powers were involved, the actual killing was being done by the Lebanese themselves, sometimes on behalf of others, unfortunately.
So we have to confront that, we have to confront our own political demons, so this is one first step. I'm not concerned that the country will slide back to civil strife. Every group has been disarmed with the exception of Hezbollah, and I think Hezbollah is led by people who are conscious of the fact that they are not going to make a mistake like that.
And as the patriarch said, various Lebanese groups have learned a few lessons from the war. No one group can have supremacy over the others, and that's' why we have to deal with that sectarian system.
MANN: Let me ask you about that, then, because it is an extraordinary thing to think that in the 21st century you could actually organize the politics of a country so explicitly on the basis of different religious groups, and so many different religious groups.
It's been a matter of official policy for decades that Lebanon should somehow --
MELHEM: Since the birth of the modern day state of Lebanon.
MANN: But it hasn't put it away. Is it possible to imagine Lebanon in the near future saying anyone who is qualified and who receives legal authority will be president, anyone who is qualified can be prime minister, anyone can be speaker, whatever their religion? Or is it going to have to be the separation that we have seen?
MELHEM: Before the civil war, we were going in that direction. The youth of Lebanon, the students and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) professional communities, were moving in that direction. Sort of a liberal trend, if you will, kind of a progressive trend, in society. This was destroyed because of the civil war and many people who were so called progressive returned to their cocoon, to their own, you know almost tribal affiliations.
Now with this popular movement that you have seen in Lebanon, the youth of Lebanon, Christians, Muslims, Druze, Shiite, others, talking about belonging to one country, there is a growing sense of belonging to a nation called Lebanon. Nobody wants to put an end to this country, to unite it with (AUDIO GAP) or Arab world and nobody wants to cut it up, a group for the Maronites or the Shia. This is healthy in itself, but we have to build on it.
MANN: If there were an election today, would it end up looking like a census, all of the Shia would vote for Shia-backed candidates, all of the Maronites would vote for Maronite-backed candidates, would it be that simple?
MELHEM: I mean, the majority would probably vote according to their own religious affiliations, unfortunately, and there is a problem with quick elections, because most of the Lebanese parliamentarians today owe their jobs and their positions to Syria, because Syria has penetrated every community in Lebanon, and they're still powerful through their Lebanese friends, because many people in government in Lebanon as well as in the Parliament are beholden to Syria. They owe Syria their jobs in a way, and their future probably depends on the Syrians remaining or leaving Lebanon.
So, I mean, you're right. Ending sectarianism is a long process, and it is going to take a long time, but definitely, it was impossible to do while the Syrians were there, while Lebanon was being hostage to the Arab- Israeli conflict. When the Syrians are out, then Hezbollah has to confront certain realities, OK? The resistance will be over because the Israelis left Lebanon, then if Hezbollah is going to liberate Jerusalem, that is something for the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world, not for a group that is acting today as a state within a state.
Then there will be pressure from within the Shia community for Hezbollah to become a full-fledged political power in Lebanon, and again to come up with a program to solve Lebanon's real problems: unemployment, education, healthcare.
MANN: It could then become a country like any other.
MELHEM: Exactly.
MANN: Hisham Melhem, thanks very much for this.
That's INSIGHT for this day, from Washington. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.
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