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Insight

Terror Attacks in Bali

Aired October 03, 2005 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Bombers return to Bali. The Indonesian resort is mourning its dead from weekend suicide attacks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): By identifying the bodies, we can speed up the process of identifying the suspects and anything related to them.

MANN: The bombers themselves provide the most promising clues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Hello and welcome.

From the first moments after the bomb blast, it was inevitable that people would suspect the Islamic group, the Jemaah Islamiah. The group was blamed for the Bali attacks in 2002 that killed more than 200 people.

But police found they had something much more valuable to go on. They located the dismembered remains of the men who set the bombs off and they distributed grisly photographs of their faces to try to identify them.

Bali isn't, though, just wondering who to blame. It is also wondering why it has been singled out so brutally twice.

On our program today, the second bombings in Bali. We begin with this report from Ian Williams.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IAN WILLIAMS, CHANNEL 4 NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The procession arrived in a small temple complex, the coffin in an elaborate funeral tower carried by the men, the women bringing offerings of food and flowers.

Amid the color, music and grief they prepared to cremate the body of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), one of 14 Balinese confirmed dead. He'd been head waiter at Raja's Restaurant in Kuta.

Friends say Sudana (ph) had been about to challenge the suicide bomber, caught on the far right in this amateur video moments before he triggered his bomb.

The video was shot by an Australian tourist as he entered Raja's with his family. And leaving for home, they spoke of how luck y they were to survive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just walking along with a camera, I guess. It was deliberately done or anything. I was just taking family footage and it just happened to turn out that way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just ducked and it was just like everything was in slow motion. It was like it wasn't happening. I knew as soon as I got down there, I thought, bomb.

WILLIAMS: Forensic teams have continued to sift through the debris at Raja's and also at the two restaurants bombed on Jimbaran Beach, where the bombers simply walked up from the beach to the crowded open air tables.

The Indonesians have been joined by Australian experts, a combination that quickly captured those behind the 2002 Bali blasts. The man in charge again is Bali Police Chief Mangku Pastika.

(on camera): How is the investigation going?

MANGKU PASTIKA, BALI POLICE CHIEF: It's going good. We came to the conclusion already that all these were suicide bombs, and now we are trying to get the identity of these people.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): He told me he's hunting the bomb-maker and support team, but he doesn't think it was a large terror cell?

(on camera): Do you think you're dealing with quite a big team of terrorists?

PASTIKA: No, no.

WILLIAMS: Small team?

PASTIKA: Small team.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): Police believe they have broken the back of the main suspect group, Jemaah Islamiah, blamed for the 2002 bombs, and say the latest blasts may be the work of a splinter team.

In an effort to identify the bombers, Pastika's team has displayed gruesome pictures of their severed heads, which we have blurred.

Surprisingly perhaps, there hasn't been the sort of tourist exodus that happened in 2002. Most Britons are staying put and the Foreign Office Help Desk at the airport has mostly been advising other nationals.

Nikki Alsot (ph) from Windsor is typical. Her hotel windows were shaken by the Jimbaran blasts, but she intends to complete her holiday, albeit cautiously.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're just unsure as to where we should go out to. Certainly stay away from too many tourist places. But, no, we're going to stay, definitely. It's a beautiful place.

WILLIAMS: The biggest blow has been for the Balinese, as they begin to cremate their dead. This is an overwhelmingly Hindu island in Muslim majority Indonesia.

And the bombings came on the even of the Galungan Festival, when the Balinese celebrate the victory of good over evil.

(on camera): The majority of the victims were Balinese. There is sorrow but also anger on an island whose economy was only just recovering from the blow of the 2002 bombing.

(voice-over): This evening, close to Jimbaran Beach, a solemn ceremony to cast away the evil spirits. Holy water sprinkled on the restaurants that were bombed on Saturday.

It took three years for Bali to recover from the 2002 blasts, and once again the livelihood of the island is at stake.

Ian Williams, Channel 4 News, Bali.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Indonesia is now on its highest level of alert as a massive search for the architects of the attacks gets underway.

Here is Channel 7's Mara Prichard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARA PRICHARD, CHANNEL 7 NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Australian federal police on the ground here in Bali sifting through the debris caused by a suicide bomb at a packed family restaurant. They've been here before and know what they're looking for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've been trying to track the terrorists with the Indonesia National Police since the Bali bombings.

PRICHARD: Indonesian police have recovered the severed heads of three suicide bombers. The photos are too gruesome for us to show, but they hope publication will help identify them. It is believed they were Jemaah Islamiah operatives with three supervisors now on the run, along with JI's master bomb-maker Azra Hari Ussin (ph). The devices were each packed with 10 kilograms of TNT and ball bearings. They weren't made in Bali, but their existence was widely known, according to Australian tourists. They say word on the street was attacks were imminent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The security guards had told us two days prior that it wasn't safe to go out in Kuta on Friday and Saturday night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Friday they said, look, don't go out, because there is going to be bombings on Friday or Saturday night. And we were like, oh, yeah, whatever, whatever. It ended up happening, so that's pretty sad.

PRICHARD: Even locals were too scared to go out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the bouncers at Paddy's (ph) said he's not working Friday or Saturday night because there might be a terror attack.

PRICHARD: Some suspect the rumors they heard may have been because of the upcoming anniversary of the 2002 bombings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's probably not because he had any inside information but just because it was the weekend closest to the anniversary.

PRICHARD (on camera): It will take police weeks to sift through the evidence they find at these crime scenes, vital for determining just who was behind these attacks.

In Bali, Mara Prichard, 7 News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, a conversation about Jemaah Islamiah, the group that some say is behind the attack.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): The Australian media dubbed him the smiling bomber, and though he faced the death penalty for his role in the 2002 Bali bombings, Amrosi bin Nurasim (ph) showed not a shred of remorse. He said his only regret was that he didn't kill more Americans.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They all know what they were doing from the beginning, so they'll all get death I hope.

MANN: Last year, when he was sentenced to death, Amrosi (ph) smiled broadly, gave a thumbs up to the courtroom and shouted "God is great."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Welcome back.

It's been almost three years since those first attacks on Bali, allegedly carried out by operatives of the Jemaah Islamiah network. As we have heard, the group is suspected in these latest bombings too, though there has been no claim of responsibility yet.

The group's goal is to set up a pan-Islamic state across much of Southeast Asia. It is said to be linked to al Qaeda.

Joining us now to talk more about Jemaah Islamiah is Roberto Herrera Lim, an Asia analyst at the Eurasia Foundation.

Thanks so much for being with us.

What can you tell us about Jemaah Islamiah? What kind of organization is it?

ROBERTO HERRERA LIM, EURASIA FOUNDATION: Well, Jemaah Islamiah has been weakened a lot over the last three years, since Bali. You know, it's goal, as you said, is to form a pan-Islamic state in Southeast Asia. For this reason, over the last 10 years it has tied up with many Islamic movements in Southeast Asia, including the Moral Islamic Liberation Front in Mindanao in the Philippines, and there are even suspicions that they are helping or participating in the current unrest that we are seeing in Thailand.

It's most prominent leader or the person most associated -- the face most associated with the organization, Ubahar Bashir (ph), is now in jail, and he's due to be released in a couple of years. But many people suspect that, you know, while you can attach the name Jemaah Islamiah to these attacks, it is more a group of individuals within Jemaah Islamiah. There is even debate whether or not Jemaah Islamiah as a whole is endorsing this, and there are people definitely inside JI who do not like these kinds of things happening because they know it polarizes society even against them.

MANN: Let me ask you more about that, but first of all, let me just ask you, how many men or women are in Jemaah Islamiah and where are they?

LIM: They are spread throughout mostly Java and, you know, East Java is the shall we say center, their center, in Indonesia.

As to how many there are, it's really difficult to say. You know, you can't put a number down on that. But there has been a very small shall we say group operating over the last two to three years, led by Al Zahari (ph) and (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who have been responsible for, some people say, Marriot in 2003 and Australian Embassy attack in 2004.

So, you know, it's probably unfair to lump all people in Jemaah Islamiah as being involved with this bombing. It is a very small, select group who use networks not even sometimes Jemaah Islamiah networks, they use people who are sympathetic to their cause. Some you can even trace to schools like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Islam from the 1960s. They use similar minded people and try to convert people to their way of thinking, which is that violence will serve their purpose.

MANN: You, once again, passed very quickly over something quite important. You mentioned two names, Al Zahari (ph) and Nurdin Top (ph). They are regarded, at least in published accounts, as the masterminds of what happened in 2002, and they're being sought once again, I gather.

LIM: Yes, you know, there were a lot more operative for JI in 2002. Hambali was captured a couple of years ago -- Hambali was captured in Thailand. He was then considered to be the point man of al Qaeda in Southeast Asia and in Jemaah Islamiah. But Al Zahari (ph) and Nurdin Top (ph) both possess specific skills. Al Zahari (ph) is considered the technical expert. He's the one who designs the bombs and makes them and trains people to use them while Nurdin Top (ph) is considered to be the operative, the one who recruits people, finds people who are vulnerable to Jemaah Islamiah's statements or to their message. And both of these people have coordinated over the last couple of years in doing these acts specifically.

MANN: And yet you say there is a debate inside Jemaah Islamiah about this kind of violence. What is the debate about?

LIM: Well, there are factions within Jemaah Islamiah who feel that doing precisely these acts are wrong. You know, like in Mindanao you have people participating in the war against the Christian government or against Christians in Mindanao. And, you know, some people say, but, you know, going to the extreme of bombing, of targeting Western targets, of targeting innocent civilians, that is something beyond conducting a war simply on behalf of Islam. It's going beyond what some people find acceptable within Jemaah Islamiah, and there are definitely splits within Jemaah Islamiah on this issue.

MANN: And when people say it is linked to al Qaeda, do they simply share the same Islamist inspiration or is there evidence that they're really working together and coordinating in some way?

LIM: Well, up to a few years ago there was evidence, especially through Hambali, who was captured in Thailand, that al Qaeda was to some extent funding, to some extent working with the more extreme members of JI in planning these attacks.

But over the last two years, the Indonesian government has done a lot. To be fair, the Indonesian government has done a lot to try to capture them, to bring the leaders and both the operatives in jail.

But as of now -- so there may be some coordination at the top. It's almost impossible to know. But definitely at the lower level it's more a grassroots, it's more an organic effort to get people, to recruit people to join them. So the link in the past, whether it's still there today and how strong those links are, it's difficult to say.

MANN: Roberto Herrera Lim, of the Eurasia Group, thank you so much for talking with us.

We take another break. When we come back, can Bali withstand another attack?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: A month ago Australia warned its citizens against traveling to Bali and other provinces of Indonesia because of the threat of terrorism. What it called a stream of credible reporting suggesting that terrorists are in the advanced stages of planning attacks against Western interests in Indonesia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Welcome back.

There were warnings both before and now it seems even after the attacks. Australian Prime Minister John Howard has ordered an investigation into reports that some Australian tourists received text messages warning of yet more bombings in Bali.

Australians who ignored the earlier warning are now taking more notice. Paul Kadak of Australia's Channel 7 has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL KADAK, CHANNEL 7 NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hundreds of Australian's crammed Bali's airport. Destination: anywhere but here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is pretty much freaking out at home and I just think it's probably safer for us to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I would get out now in case anything else happens.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trying to escape the dream holiday turned nightmare in the flash of a terrorist bomb.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just like a mess and people were running and screaming.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people with blood on them.

KADAK: The queues stretched around the terminal as they waited hours for the chance to get a seat home. There were extra flights but it wasn't easy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got friends that can't get out, they're stuck here.

KADAK: And for some, leaving for good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was my holiday of a lifetime. I waited about 10 years for it and I'll never come back again.

KADAK: Balinese opened their shops and restaurants to quieter streets; as tourists flee, their livelihood is fading before their eyes.

(on camera): No customers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No customers, no.

KADAK (on camera): Despite the fear and devastation, you can see here in Kuta Square, there are Australians determined to stay here in Bali, some to simply finish their holiday, others to send a message to the terrorists.

(voice-over): Helen Moffet (ph) believes there is nothing to fear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it doesn't feel unsafe. I'm not scared to go out at night or anything like that. I'm not scared to go on tours.

KADAK: Glen Mumford (ph) is more direct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be frank, we don't want the bastards to win.

KADAK: In Bali, Paul Kadak, 7 News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Jemaah Islamiah is on the U.S. State Department list of foreign terrorist groups and is banned in several Asian countries, but while the Indonesian government has cracked down on the group, it has refused to outlaw it.

Joining us now to talk about all of this is Robert Templer, the director of Asia Programs at the International Crisis Group.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Let me ask you first of all, why would Jemaah Islamiah or any other group attack a place like Bali twice?

ROBERT TEMPLER, INTL. CRISIS GROUP: I think they may have been targeting it because there are more foreigners there, it's a more open environment to attack. Lots of street life, foreigners out on the street. And also possibly because the people in Bali are mostly Hindus, they're not Muslims, and therefore JI or whoever carried this out may have felt that it was somehow more legitimate to attack them.

MANN: What has the Indonesian government done? We were just talking to another analyst who said they've been quite active against Jemaah Islamiah. It has been three years. What have they been doing?

TEMPLER: Well, they've arrested and tried and jailed about 250 men and one woman for involvement in JI, and that's actually a pretty spectacular result when you compare it with other countries around the world that have had far less success in prosecuting terrorists. If you look at the record in Germany, Britain, elsewhere. So I think they actually have done a fairly good job in terms of breaking the back of JI.

However, it only takes a very small number of people to carry out an atrocity like this, and unfortunately it's going to be very difficult to round up everybody and to prevent these sorts of things happening.

MANN: Wouldn't outlawing Jemaah Islamiah be a good step? It's astonishing that that hasn't been done.

TEMPLER: I don't think it makes a dramatic difference. They really have taken a serious attitude towards JI and they have arrested people. But Indonesia has a long legacy of authoritarianism and a lot of people in this more democratic era in Indonesia are very anxious at the idea of banning organizations or using such issues as preventative detention. These are very sensitive issues politically in Indonesia, so it's very difficult for the Indonesia government to ban organizations outright and to act in that sort of rather authoritarian way given the country's recent history. So I can understand that there is a little hesitancy to do this sort of thing.

MANN: It's not just that the organization exists, but that it also has links in the community. There are said to be a dozen or more than a dozen schools that are affiliated with Jemaah Islamiah.

TEMPLER: This is certainly a big problem, and I think these schools do need to be closed or controlled. There is a very small number of these schools that produce people, but they are very critical in the way the linkage is formed between members of these organizations and also between JI and other organizations within Indonesia. So I think it is critical that the Indonesia government take firmer action against these places.

MANN: You could look at this and say it's a nuanced approach to the problem, or you could be a government like Australia, that is sending its citizens there and doing a lot of trade, but also putting its nationals at risk when they visit. Are Australia, are the countries surrounding Indonesia, satisfied with the progress that's been made? On a day like today it doesn't look like it's been nearly enough.

TEMPLER: I think they work very closely with the Indonesian government in various ways. The Australian police has developed very strong links. The Australian government has provided considerable assistance to the Indonesian government on this issue. And likewise others in the region have as well.

I think they would like to see them do more. The Australian prime minister has called for Indonesia to ban JI. But I think it is also very difficult and politically very sensitive for the Indonesia government to be seen to be acting at the behest of foreigners and outsiders. So I think there is always a degree of sensitivity.

It's certainly the case that this government has been much more active, much more committed to tackling this issue than the previous government, which was very reluctant to recognize that there was really a problem there. So I think we're likely to see much more and much stronger action from this government.

MANN: Do you think there will be reason to wonder, once again, about a second attack, in almost essentially the same place, coming so soon after the first one? Does it point to a lapse in security? Does it point to a problem the Indonesians haven't addressed?

TEMPLER: Well, I mean, there were two attacks or attempted attacks in London straight after each other. It's very difficult to secure an open society. How do you prevent these sorts of things happening, particularly in the case of suicide bombers. People who are willing to die when they blow themselves up in this way are obviously much more difficult to prevent. So I don't think it really represents a major security lapse. It's just quite simply impossible to prevent every attack from happening.

MANN: So what more can they do that they haven't done, do you think?

TEMPLER: I think they need to deal with a number of issues in the way people move around Indonesia and get into other areas in the Philippines, for example, for training. They could do more in terms of controlling explosives. They could do more in terms of controlling regional conflicts within Indonesia that often act as a source of inspiration and training grounds for terrorist groups. I think there are a number of areas that they could do more in that would gradually have an affect, but it would be very difficult to prevent a small and committed group of people from carrying out an atrocity like this one.

MANN: Robert Templer, of the International Crisis Group, thank you so much for talking with us.

TEMPLER: Thank you.

MANN: That's INSIGHT for today. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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