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Insight

The Trial of Saddam Hussein Continues

Aired December 05, 2005 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AHMED HASSAN MOHAMMED, WITNESS (through translator): He was 16 years.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST (voice-over): The testimony is gruesome.

MOHAMMED (through translator): They took him to interrogation. They electrocute -- they tortured him by electric shock and they would beat him before the eyes of my father.

MANN: The defendants are defiant.

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): You allow the employees of the court to speak but you don't allow the defense attorneys to speak. Is this justice?

MANN: At times chilling or chaotic, the trial of Saddam Hussein continues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Hello and welcome.

The trial seems to be struggling. The judge is having a hard time imposing order on the court. Defense attorneys say they're having a hard time making their case. And outsiders say the prosecutors, or rather the proceedings, will have a hard time meeting international standards of justice.

Even so, watching the trial of Saddam Hussein unfold on television, it is a remarkable spectacle; the Iraqis, venting their anger and pain after decades of suffering, and of Saddam himself encountering his accusers, listening and bullying back.

On our program today, the trial. We begin with this recap of the day in court from CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: A very emotional day in court. The first witness crying as he was talking through what had happened to him, what had happened to his family, some of the extreme torture that he had to bear, that his family had had to bear, that they had to witness. Some of his family members killed as well. And while he was giving this testimony, Saddam Hussein was standing only 9 feet, only 3 meters away from him, at times trying to interject, trying to complain.

The judge, Rizgar Amin, telling Saddam Hussein to be quiet, to sit down, that he would get his opportunity. And as the witness went through the litany of what had happened to him, what he had witnessed, saying that he was in detention for almost four years before he was released, several of his family members dying, the defense lawyers then began to cross- examine this witness, trying to pick holes in what he had said.

After that, Basan Hasan al-Tikriti, Saddam Hussein's half-brother, cross-examined him. Saddam Hussein also asked him questions, both trying to undermine what he had said.

Then the second witness came. He was perhaps slightly quieter, more cautious in his delivery. He talked about how parts of his family's orchards have been destroyed in the town of Dujail. Again, the cross- examination very strong; and at one point, really, Saddam Hussein haranguing that second witness, calling him an (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

There were times when Saddam Hussein became so animated, so loud, and so as the judge kept telling him to speak on the track, speak on the subject, not talk about political issues, at points the courtroom actually cut Saddam Hussein's microphone off so he couldn't be heard.

Another incident not caught on camera, where Saddam Hussein's half- brother turns and spits towards a visitor's gallery, visibly angry with the people gathered in that visitor's gallery. Some very, very emotional moments through the trial and the day closing on perhaps the most emotional note of all, when Saddam Hussein, after 10 or 15 minutes of shouting, throws down his papers.

Nick Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We'll go back to the courtroom in a moment, but first this trial stems from the killings of nearly 150 men after an attempt on Saddam's life in 1982 in the town of Dujail. Not everyone who suffered in the aftermath is being heard in court.

CNN's Aneesh Raman is in Dujail, where he heard another family member describe what he went through.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In court Monday, the first witness appearing defiant, testifying in front of Saddam Hussein. In Dujail, his brother, Ali Hayderi, told us about the day that defines both their lives, the day Saddam came to visit their village.

ALI HAYDERI, BROTHER OF WITNESS (through translator): We were a farming family with middle income made of 11 sons and five daughters. That day we heard people chanting and shouting.

RAMAN: That day was July 8, 1982. Saddam's motorcade drove into the Shiite village of Dujail. Ali was 14 at the time, part of the crowd chanting orchestrated allegiance, but allegiance was something not all in Dujail felt.

HAYDERI (through translator): I didn't see me brother that morning, but others did. When he left, he was in a hurry.

RAMAN: Ali says his brother, Hassan (ph), was one of the six men planning to kill Saddam Hussein that day, but a key decision would hinder their efforts.

HAYDERI (through translator): I was told later someone wanted to attack Saddam with a hand grenade, but the rest did not approve. They were not aware that the cars were armored ones.

RAMAN: Instead, the group attacked with gunfire. Ali shows us where. Saddam escaped, and he says the dictator's revenge was immediate. Some suspects allegedly executed within minutes and thousands, including Ali and his family, say they were taken away, many to spend the next five years in prison.

HAYDERI (through translator): We were sent to Abu Ghraib Prison. It was a time of suffering. We saw old people dying. They were beaten with metal pieces. Infants died in the prisons. They used to march us in front of the women and beat us.

RAMAN: But Ali says prison was just the start of the punishment. In 1986 he and the others who remained were released, returning home to a Dujail that had been destroyed, 149 residents gone, allegedly executed by Saddam's regime for their involvement in the assassination plot. Ali had no idea if his brother Hassan (ph) was among them. It took 17 years for him to get the answer.

HAYDERI (through translator): After the regime fell, we found an order signed by Saddam to execute the young men of Dujail. It had some 149 people, including Hassan (ph) and my other brothers, and 118 people from Dujail.

RAMAN: And now decades after that defining day, Ali watched with his family, we're told, as his brother testified, watched with pride as justice finally unfolded.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Dujail, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We take a break. When we come back, a closer look at some of the most compelling moments in the courtroom today.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): Saddam Hussein was arrested almost two years ago. His trial began nearly seven weeks ago. And in that time the court has held three sessions. The murder of two attorneys delayed the trial. The defense says that the lack of security will invalidate the proceedings entirely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today there is in place for the court the prosecution, the prosecution witnesses, as far as we can tell, significant protection.

There is virtually no protection for the nine Iraqi lawyers and their families who are heroically here to try to defend truth and justice in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Welcome back.

The defendants have been chanting, they have been cursing the witnesses and the judges, and one of them even rose from his seat to spit at the gallery. At times Saddam Hussein was defiant. At others he was verging on respectful towards the judge.

Here's a portion of what we saw in court on Monday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): Your Honor -- your Honor, yes, when I speak I'm your brother and I'm in brotherhood of Iraq. I don't -- I'm not scared of being executed. Nobody can explain my history from '59 to now. I know that there is pressure on you, yes, yes, I'll get to the question. I'll come -- oh, now the time is tight?

RIZGAR AMIN, PRESIDING JUDGE (through translator): You have -- you have -- you have -- what you are talking about, you can talk in your defense now. We are -- we are addressing a specific issue. The plaintiff talked about some issue, and if you have anything, question, related to that, then good.

SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes, I have, and it's so unfortunate that I have to be confronting one of my sons. It's not for me. It's for the sake of Iraq, for the public. Give me time to talk. This is my right. This is my right. I served you 30 years. We are before a criminal case. Give me time, give me a chance, give me room, don't interrupt me. I'm defending myself. I'm defending -- I'm not defending myself, I'm defending you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Defense attorney Ramsey Clark led a brief walkout of the defendants after the judge ruled that only the chief defense lawyer could speak. The judge had warned that if the defendant walked out, the court would appoint replacements. That led to an outburst by Saddam Hussein and his co-defendant and half-brother Basan Ibrahim al-Tikriti.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): We reject -- we reject the appointment of clerks, employees, to defend us. The law allows that. This law was enacted by America. Long live Iraq. Long live Iraq. Long live Iraq. Long live Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Saddam's lawyers returned to the court and the first witness to take the stand, Ahmed Hassan Mohammed, who we saw briefly earlier, also sparred with the defendants, telling Saddam's half-brother, "You killed a 14-year-old boy," to which Ibrahim replied, "Go to hell."

Unlike other witnesses who are expected to testify, Mohammed allowed his face to be shown throughout the proceedings. He talked about the treatment that residents of the town of Dujail allegedly suffered at the hands of Saddam's security agents, retribution for a failed assassination attempt on the leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMED (through translator): I had a brother, Mosad Hassan (ph). He is not in the file that you have. He's not mentioned in your file. He was a student, middle school. He was born in 1965. They took him to interrogation. They electrocute -- they tortured him by electric shock and they would beat him before the eyes of my father, who was born 1905. They would ask him where your brothers are. And he was a student, he had no idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: We take a break. When we come back, how the trial looks to the people who are documenting Saddam's other crimes.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: An Iraqi government spokesman once said that there were hundreds of cases that could be brought against Saddam Hussein. In fact, Dujail is just one of the episodes that Iraqi officials may bring to court, ranging from accusations that Saddam ordered the murder of Shia religious leaders in 1974 to the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the suppression of Iraqi Kurds a year later.

Welcome back.

From the outset, Iraqi authorities specifically said that there are to be more trials, after this one more opportunities for the regime's many victims to seek justice. Most, though, will not get their day in court. They can only watch from afar.

Aneesh Raman takes a look at the reaction to Monday's proceedings in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN (voice-over): They gather here to escape the turmoil of Iraq's present, but Monday at the Arabian Caf‚, Baghdad's youth came to confront the past, to see a dictator in the dock and see a witness speak for millions.

Ahmed Hassan Mohammed, the first Iraqi to publicly and defiantly talk back to those who ruled his life for decades with tyrannical fear, a chance 31-year-old Hussein al-Hassani (ph), who saw a number of relatives executed by Saddam's regime, could only imagine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This witness is a hero. He had strong composure and he spoke on behalf of all of us. He talked about the prisons, his relatives, Saddam and the mass graves. He talked about everything.

RAMAN: The reactions here went with the day, when legal chaos erupted in the morning, the laughter echoed. And when Mohammed broke down speaking of his brother's torture, intense eyes focused. Only the spoke of the argilla (ph) pipe filling the air.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When he cried, I started crying with him, because I've suffered like him. He was tortured because of Dujail, but I was tortured as well because of Saddam's oppression. If I was in the court, I would talk about other pain because there was no Iraqi who did not suffer under Saddam.

RAMAN: A remarkable thought that undoubtedly crossed most minds in Iraq crossed Hassani's (ph): what, if anything, would you say to Saddam Hussein?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would say nothing. I would spit on his face on behalf of all Iraqi people. Because Saddam Hussein is a man who tortured and destroyed all of us, make us backward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If I saw Saddam, I'd say is this how you ended up? You were found in a pit while you used to live in palaces, now you beg the judge to give you time to speak. You were powerful in the past. Things change. But I know it is impossible to meet him.

RAMAN (on camera): An impossibility for millions of Iraqis who Monday were largely unconcerned with the legality of the court but instead lived through the first witness, lived through him the chance to avenge the man that dictated their lives for decades.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: As we mentioned, this is one case of many that is expected to come to trial. Joining us now to talk about that is Hassan Mneimneh of the Iraqi Memory Foundation which is trying to research the crimes committed against the Iraqi people.

Thanks so much for being with us.

I don't know how much you had a chance to see today of the trial so far. What is your sense of it? Are you glad to see the way it's unfolding? Are you disappointed with it?

HASSAN MNEIMNEH, IRAQI MEMORY FOUNDATION: Thank you, Jon.

Actually, I was able to watch quite a bit of it and clearly the court's strategy is to keep the whole trial procedurally focused and to keep it concentrated on the one issue. And this is exactly what it seems that the defense strategy is to try to undo. As much as the court tries to bend over backward in order to accommodate Saddam and his team, there was always objections to that. And as a result what ended up appearing is if the defense had the initiative as opposed to the court having the initiative.

And in terms of the subject matter itself as opposed to the focus that the court has tried to insist on, of the matter of Dujail, what the Saddam team has tried to do is try to diffuse it, to try to make it into a nationalist matter, to try to focus -- to bring in other components. And therefore it was clear that there was some very powerful moments. But at the same time what we have not seen -- we have not seen yet unfolding the kind of indictment of Saddam and his crimes and his regime, so far. I mean, we're still at the very beginning of the trial, and therefore we still can hope for much more than that.

MANN: To some extent, this is a battle for public opinion. Who's winning so far?

MNEIMNEH: I would say -- I mean, it is indeed a battle for public opinion and actually many publics, the first public being the Iraqi public, the second being the Arab public, and the third being the international one.

I would say in terms of the Iraqi public, to a large extent, and not counting in here those who within Iraq are people who are against the new order, the new Iraq, if you would like, who are really a minority, that battle is already won. Many Iraqis will tell you what for, why are we going through this whole exercise? We know that he is guilty and that's that.

However, clearly what is trying to be introduced here is a real paradigm shift in the way law is treated, and this is why the court is trying -- is trying its best to accommodate Saddam and his team, and this is why Saddam and his team are trying to use that opening, the space that the court is trying to give them, in order to undermine and basically derail the whole process, derail the trial, and make it not a trial of a system but a trial of characters in which Saddam is trying to appear to be sympathetic. He and his half-brother and others are trying to appear as if they have something to say, as if they have a grievance of sorts as opposed to clearly what is omitted when they formulate it even is the grievances that literally hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and others can have against them, and this -- they are clearly trying to obliterate or at least not have it appear for the time being.

MANN: Now, you touched on something very important, which is that there is a paradigm shift here, that this court has the burden of trying to show what kind of justice Iraq has not seen before. It has to be fair. It has to be legitimate. It has to be, I suppose, in a sense dignified in its application of justice. Is it succeeding so far in a way that is going to make future trials easier or is the circus-like atmosphere that we have seen to some extent going to impede things?

MNEIMNEH: I would say it is erring on the side of tolerating the circus-like atmosphere as opposed to clamping down on it. And in that sense it is not failing. It is not succeeding yet. It has to reach that equilibrium between the two, between allowing the defense its fair due, if you would like, allowing the defense to express itself the way it wants to express itself, but within the boundaries of what is legitimate, and legitimate in this case is pertinent to the case in question and not to political diatribes, the way the defense, at least some within the defense, are trying to move on to.

So I would say, I mean, clearly, for the time being at least, it is the defense and the court that have the upper hand in terms of setting the tone. This is why you can say that it is circus-like. But at the same time, the court has not made the mistakes that would make it impossible for it to regain the ground. And I think that an assessment of the performance of today is due and on the basis of that assessment we can expect some correction towards enforcing a little bit more order, and the order in question --

MANN: I'm going to cut you off, forgive me, because there is a crucial question that all of this leads to.

MNEIMNEH: Sure.

MANN: Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis want justice. Is this going to make it easier?

MNEIMNEH: Yes, ultimately, I think that Saddam and his crowd are a little bit bewildered. Why focus on just 150 or so? I mean, from their point of view, is this all what they have or is this really something that we can dissipate?

I think if the court ends up proving -- and I think it has really a good chance of doing it -- that the life of one individual matters as much as the life of many, this is what would be -- and we're talking about the paradigm shift, this is part of it, in addition to the procedural aspect of it. And if that is established, it is going to be easier for what comes next, because what we can expect, however delayed, however long a process it's going to be, but nonetheless, we have a process in motion, a process that would be recognized as being fair and just and possible and this is, I think, what would be a serious achievement, if we succeed here.

MANN: Hassan Mneimneh, of the Iraqi Memory Foundation, thank you so much for this.

MNEIMNEH: Thank you.

MANN: A final word before we go about one other man who's been through some of this already. Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial at the Hague right now and has been tangling with the judges, the prosecutors and the witnesses. Milosevic is charged with 66 counts of genocide and crimes against humanity. His trial has dragged on, delayed by his health problems, high blood pressure and bouts of flu, since February of 2002. It may be finished, some say, in 2006. The Hague Tribunal said a few days ago it's trying to find a way to get it done.

The trial of Saddam Hussein, day four, resumes Tuesday.

That's INSIGHT for today. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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