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Insight

Unrest in Nepal

Aired April 19, 2006 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: Hard times in hippy heaven. Nepal, loved by tourists and trekkers, has a new look now. It's a kingdom in crisis.
Hello and welcome.

If you're heading off to Nepal, you might want to pack more than your sandals and t-shirts. The capital, Katmandu, is short of food and it took an armed convey to bring in the first supplies it's had in nearly two weeks. A daylight curfew has been imposed to head off a major protest march planned for the hours to come, and several people were killed by security forces at another march Wednesday.

Nepal, in short, is not what you think. Despite its idyllic reputation, it's a brutal, impoverished place. The government has been fighting Maoist rebels for a decade and has lost half of the country, maybe even more than that. And in recent weeks, a second kind of battle; a growing number of ordinary, peaceful citizens are rising up to demand democracy.

On our program today, the fight for the high ground.

CNN's Dan Rivers begins this look at the crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nepal is a mountain kingdom teetering on the edge of collapse. The anarchic streets full of protesters doing battle with security forces with the death toll climbing higher each day.

For centuries, these people have been ruled by the Nepalese royal family, who they believe are divine. But now they're chanting "Down with the king."

There is revolution in the air, Communists side by side with mainstream political parties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is too much for now. We cannot tolerate now because we need freedom and he must listen our voice, because this is not old people. We are new generations. We are asking for a republic.

RIVERS (on camera): This is the fault line between the state and the people. On this side are the king's security forces, who are standing firm, and on the other side is this huge crowd made up of a broad coalition of political parties. The atmosphere is incredibly tense, and this lot want to get into the city.

(voice-over): The police are only just managing to hold them back. So how did this ancient Himalayan country come to the brink of a revolution?

Well, recent Nepalese history reads like a Shakespearean tragedy. The current king, Gyanendra, came to the throne after a bloody palace massacre in 2001, the crown prince slaughtering almost every royal before killing himself, leaving Gyanendra to take the crown. But Gyanendra also inherited a violent Maoist insurgency, armed rebels determined to overthrow the royals.

Over the last four years, King Gyanendra has slowly dismantled democracy, dissolving parliament and seizing control himself, claiming the politicians were failing to deal with the Maoists.

Now the country is in crisis. A general strike has left people lining up for fuel and food. At the Buddhist temples, the monks are praying for peace. Absolute monarchy has been a fact of life here for centuries, but recently people have had a taste of democracy, and now they want their freedom back.

The tourists watch on helplessly, their vacations turning into a nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my opinion, it could be the last days of the king. The situation is very scary.

RIVERS: But everything may change soon. There are predictions that a million people will be on the streets on Thursday. Many here are asking themselves how long Nepal will remain a kingdom.

Dan Rivers, CNN, Katmandu, Nepal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: The country's future may not be decided in a palace but in the homes of its citizens. Activists have asked a member of each household in Nepal to take part in what's expected to be that massive protest Thursday. Whatever the turnout, one thing is certain, many people are angry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We, the people, are in a very sorry state. Even if we have money, there are no commodities to buy. We have to wait hours to get kerosene. The government should look into this matter. It's their responsibility. We all should get together and pressure the government to give us peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Until we get democracy back from Gyanendra, the Nepali people will not rest. Being the citizens of this country, we will fight to get democracy back and we are ready to sacrifice our lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Because of the strike, transport is very difficult and that's why the cost is going up. The common people's difficulties have increased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: The protests began nearly two weeks ago southeast of Katmandu in the town of Kirtipur. There were more protests nearby on Wednesday and there was more trouble. A few hours ago, Ian Williams had this report looking ahead to the day of protest that now has actually already begun.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IAN WILLIAMS, ITV CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems that just about everybody in this small town in the Katmandu Valley have gathered here in the central square and all the way up the hillside. Behind me, an effigy of the king, describing him as a killer.

They've come to listen to political leaders. Now they're urging patience, asking the people here to continue to support the protests for a few more days. "In that way, we'll bring the king down," they say.

They're also asking every household here to provide one person to take part in tomorrow's protests, which they say will be the biggest yet. They'll gather here and they'll march on the city center. That will happen in seven places across the city. The significance of this place, Kirtipur, is that this is where the protests really began two weeks ago and where they have been pretty passionate.

Now the government is considering its position and today Karan Singh, an envoy from the prime minister of India, arrived in Katmandu, urging the king to compromise, urging him to speak to the political parties.

KARAN SINGH, INDIAN ENVOY TO NEPAL: I bring prayer and hope that Nepal will get out of its present difficult situation and return to peace and prosperity. I'm always optimistic, yes.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): Soon after his arrival, the government released two senior opposition leaders from detention, including the leader of the Communist Party, Nepal's biggest.

And there were reports of the king preparing fresh concessions in a bid to head off tomorrow's protests. But none of that was enough to prevent sporadic clashes in and around Katmandu today, though they weren't on the scale of recent days.

Some of the ugliest clashes were reported from the east of Nepal.

(on camera): The big one, well, that will come tomorrow. The people here seem in no mood to compromise, and it does seem that many, many people will be taking to the streets tomorrow for what these political leaders describe as the biggest protest yet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Because of the violence, many embassies have reduced their staffs in Nepal and issued advisories against traveling there. Tourists who in the past were lured by the country's attractions, like Mount Everest and the birth site of the Buddha have stayed away for fears that it's now unsafe. That lack of business just another strain on an already stressed out country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): There is a lot of difficulty. Ever since there has been a strike, tours have not been coming. And if tours don't come, then how will we earn and how will we eat? So we are under a lot of stress and have a lot of problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were burning car wheels in the streets. We can't go where we want to go. It was a little bit difficult. We always must go other ways we wanted to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: You saw it there, the beautiful scenes of Nepal, the scenes of idyllic images have lately been replaced by burning tires and street riots.

We take a quick break, but when we come back, Nepal is known for its spiritual heights, but is it spiraling down a darker path towards revolution?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: The demonstrators in the streets of Katmandu are not allied with the Maoist rebels, but the two movements do share some of the same demands, a call for a new constitution and free and fair elections. The rebel's open support for the opposition's general strike has also encouraged people to comply.

Welcome back.

Can the king resist the pressure of the insurgents, the opposition and the international community at the same time?

Joining us now to talk about that is Murari Raj Sharma, former Nepalese ambassador to the United Nations and several countries besides.

Ambassador, thanks so much for being with us.

How would you describe what we're seeing in your country now?

MURARI RAJ SHARMA, FORMER NEPALESE AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Well, it's a very bad situation and it's getting worse every day.

Of course, the people want more democracy, more freedom, that they had before but was taken away by the king. They would like to reinstate democracy and freedom and move forward. I don't think they will be happy and content with getting back what they had before. They want to go forward, have more authority, more freedom, more human rights.

Therefore, that's what people have been fighting for at the moment.

MANN: Now, what we've been seeing over the last few days, what we've been seeing while you've been talking, are people in the streets chanting for democracy and against the king.

In a place like Nepal, how much of a break is it with history and religion to go after the king in that way?

SHARMA: Well, you know, in the beginning there was very little support for those who were asking for the king to step down and go away. But then as the situation evolves, there are more and more, especially young people, who are supporting those eho want to do away with the monarchy and with the king.

So we have a new situation evolving every day.

MANN: And if we look at the evolution, in fact, if we go a step or two back, I guess it's fair to say, correct me if I'm wrong, that when the king first took on the business of the government himself, when he dissolved the government and decided to rule directly, that too was popular, because people were frustrated then with democratically-elected leaders.

SHARMA: Well, in fact, the king had promised three things when he took over. One, he would resolve the Maoist problem; two, he would tackle corruption; three, he will also tackle financial indiscipline.

He has failed on all three counts.

Of course, major concern for the majority of the people was the Maoist problem, and the people have seen over the last year or so that rather than trying to resolve the Maoist problem, the king has in fact pursued a policy of trying to find a military solution, which will insure that there is a protracted Maoist conflict and true peace nowhere to be seen.

MANN: So, if he's failed three out of three, if there are people in the streets, and there may be within a few hours hundreds of thousands, can the king survive this?

SHARMA: Well, that is a big question.

If he takes timely action, I don't think it's already too late. But if he continues to sort of, you know, bide more time, let's say for a month or so, I don't think the situation is going to remain as it is now, and whatever situation is going to emerge, that might not be very conducive to the continuous existence of the institution of monarchy.

MANN: Ultimately, you might think the decision is the king's. Some people might argue the decision will be the people who will determine the fate of the country, but let me ask you. Is it going to be the army who decides? If they stay loyal to the king, will they keep him in power? And if they sway to popular demands, is he gone?

SHARMA: Well, as you know from other situations elsewhere in other countries, the military can save the king only for so long and no more.

If people begin to come out in waves, wave after wave, and face the bullet and baton, then in that situation the military or the police is not going to be able to contain the people. Therefore, they will have to side either with the political parties that have been fighting for democracy or with the king. And we've seen throughout history that usually the security forces, in that last situation, side with the people rather than with the sort of, you know, dying institution, as we've seen in Iran and elsewhere.

MANN: Now, you are among those who have been publicly calling for an arms embargo against the military in Nepal. That embargo, at least with its major suppliers, has largely been put into place.

Is there anything more the outside world could be doing to try to help the people of Nepal, the country, get through this?

SHARMA: Well, we have been doing other things as well. For instance, you know, one day early this week the seven-party alliance has asked the international community to suspend its support, loan or grant, whatever, all kinds of support. That is one way of putting pressure, more pressure, on the government, on the regime in Katmandu today.

But then, you know, more pressure from the international community, those are going to be effective. Of course, so far, there was some room for the king to maneuver, because some countries, whether directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly, were supporting the king because he was promising to resolve the Maoist problem through military means.

MANN: Well, we have just a moment, so let me ask you one last question on that very thought.

The king has basically offered the international community a choice, monarchy or Maoist rebels in control. Is that the case? Do you think if the king is toppled, the Maoists will in short order take over Nepal?

SHARMA: Absolutely not. That's baloney. That is totally wrong.

The Maoists are nowhere closer to marching to Katmandu. Of course there is a -- there are three factors. One, the people would not accept the Maoists to come and rule them. Secondly, the international community will not allow them to do that. Thirdly, they have no territorial foothold from where they could stage a massive operation to take over Katmandu.

So this is absolutely baloney. There is absolutely no room to argue that the Maoists are going to take over.

MANN: Murari Raj Sharma, former Nepalese ambassador to the United Nations, thank you so much for talking with us.

SHARMA: Thank you very much.

MANN: We're going to take another break. When we come back, that key question. Without the monarchy, would the Maoists win?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: India is watching its border with Nepal closely. The kingdom's Maoists are believed to receive at least some support from India's own rebels in the states of Bihar (ph) and Uttar Pradesh.

"We have increased vigil at the border," the local commander says, "checking has been increased. There is patrolling. We're keeping a strict eye on the situation."

Welcome back.

Nepal's Maoists are not particularly popular in their own country or abroad. They routinely tortured and executed civilians, kidnapped children and pressed many bystanders into military service. Though they profess allegiance to the teachings of the Chinese revolutionary Mao Tse-Tung, China doesn't really support them, nor do Nepalis living outside the country.

But the conditions they condemn, the poverty of Nepali life and the brutality of its security forces, are widely acknowledged.

Joining us now to talk about the Maoists and the conditions is anthropologist Mary Des Chenes, cofounder and coeditor of "The Journal of Studies in Nepali History and Society."

Thanks so much for being with us.

Who are the Maoists?

MARY DES CHENES, "JOURNAL OF STUDIES IN NEPALI HISTORY & SOCIETY": The Maoists are, first of all, a political party, and I will refer to them that way, because they are so very misunderstood outside the country. They are the Communist Party of Nepal Maoists. They are a political force in the country. And at this crisis in Nepal's history, it is tremendously important that that be understood.

I would like to pick up from the last thing Murari Raj said, which is that the king has presented a false dichotomy to the international community, a challenge right now, which he has said you're for me or you're against me. He's learned this language from the Bush administration. The Bush administration has labelled the Communist Party of Nepal Maoists as a terrorist force, officially put them on their list.

This has had very destructive consequences in Nepal in the struggle of the Nepali people to move back from war to a peaceful policy. What you will found the Maoists saying is that the Maoist winning means the people winning. And let me just rephrase that so there is no misunderstanding.

They say that they want the Nepali people to have the sovereign right to determine their own policy. You may have seen an interview with their leader, Bajunga (ph), by the BBC several weeks ago, in which he very clearly said if the Nepali people decide for monarchy, we will accept it.

MANN: Let me jump in, because you're sounding -- you're certainly more informed than I am. You sound fairly sympathetic to their cause. Human rights organizations say they do terrible things to the civilians that they run across.

DES CHENES: Now, if you say their cause, you need to look at the things that they have been fighting for. Some of the kinds of problems of entrenched poverty and so on.

Now, if you want to talk about -- and there I am absolutely in sympathy, that these issues need to be resolved in a serious way, can only be resolved in a serious way with a really open policy in Nepal, which it has not yet experienced.

Now, if we want to talk about the war, personally my view is this. I happen to have studied many, many wars, because I have spent 10 years studying the history of Gurka (ph) soldiers, who are Nepalis who have fought for the British outside the country. I have never encountered a clean war in my studies of two centuries of wars.

If you want to compare the two armed forces in the country, the Maoists have not been perfect. They have engaged in some excesses. There is no question of that. They have made some large mistakes, they have made some small mistakes. But if you compare the two forces, there is no question. The state forces have engaged in far more human rights violations. They have killed far more civilians and on and on. This is well-verified by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights and the special rapporteurs on torture and disappearance.

MANN: That in fact is borne out by my own research. That's a point to be made and underscored, that the official security forces are doing worse things that the insurgents are doing.

But let me ask you a question. If the security forces change their allegiance or simply stop fighting, if the king goes, do you think the Maoists with be, if not in control, in a position to determine the future of the country and possibly take power?

DES CHENES: No. And this is very important to understand. There is a political -- they will be part and they will be a very important part of a future government. They are not asking for, demanding or even at this point fighting for sole control of the country.

The seven political parties who are the parliamentary parties that the king threw out in 2002, who have called this general strike, and the Maoists, have signed two formal accords in the last six months which sets out a clear roadmap forward for a way out of armed struggle and back into struggle for the kinds of development that the country needs in a political mode.

The key thing here is that there is a clear solution, political solution, out there. It's between the seven political parties, from the parliament and the CPN Maoists. It involved having an election for representatives to a constituent assembly. The constituent assembly's job will be to determine the type of policy that the country is going to have. Whether that involves constitutional monarchy, which is looking less and less likely, or whether it will be a parliamentary system of the kind that there has been, or whether it will be some other kind of democratic system.

MANN: Let me jump in on that thought. It's a good plan, but the Maoists are said to control already half to country, maybe more than half the country. If you were a guerilla and you already ran half the country would you give it up in favor of a good plan?

DES CHENES: It's really not a question of giving up. That is -- they do have a good bit of control of countryside, that's true. They are people who come out of the political scene in Nepal. These are not wild terrorists who popped up out of the jungle, as they are sometimes represented. And they have an extremely good feel for the political landscape. And their measure, when they're at their best, is exactly the pulse from the people. What do the people want.

Now, what you're seeing on the streets right now is an absolutely mass uprising. The civil servants are out on the streets. The lawyers are out on the streets. These people are not all Maoists. The Maoists know it.

So they are absolutely ready to form a working coalition with all the political entities in the country up to but not including the palace. And that is a very viable solution forward for the country, ready to go, and without international interference and continuation of propping up the king, that process, difficult as it is, will go forward and can go forward and take the country back to peace.

MANN: Mary Des Chenes, thanks so much for talking with us.

DES CHENES: Thank you.

MANN: A final thing before we go. Journalists have been told explicitly that they are not exempt from the curfew now in effect in Katmandu. Nor have they been exempt from the government's other measures to quell the popular uprising.

Nepalese journalists say that more than 200 of their colleagues in the media have been arrested in just the last month and at the last count 31 of them are still in custody. The government is not only cracking down on journalists, it's cracking down on the news itself. In a country of poor, remote villages, radio is the most widely used of the mass media. The government has ordered independent radio stations to stop broadcasting the news.

That's INSIGHT for today. I'm Jonathan Mann. We'll have more news in a moment.

END

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