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Insight

Interview with King Abdullah of Jordan

Aired June 22, 2006 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST (voice-over): The king offers his counsel. Jordan's King Abdullah is trying to promote peace with Israel and win the war with al Qaeda. As he looks for ideas among the world's Nobel laureates, he has a few opinions of his own.

KING ABDULLAH OF JORDAN: We have to decide whose side of the fence we're going to stand on. Otherwise terrorism at the end of the day is going to win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Hello and welcome.

Right now there are two wars on Jordan's borders. One to the west, a low intensity conflict between Israel and the Palestinian factions; one to the east, a full blown insurgency in Iraq. And Jordan itself is fighting terrorists within its midst. Maybe it's fitting then that some of the world's most distinguished peacemakers are in Jordan right now to think about war and ways out of it.

The most interesting event was a breakfast where Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. A short, symbolic encounter that still isn't the long-awaited summit.

On our program today, the king and the conflicts, an exclusive INSIGHT interview.

King Abdullah began with a quick word about that breakfast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING ABDULLAH: We had a very relaxed breakfast this morning, with both President Abbas and Prime Minister Olmert and others this morning. And I think it was done in a very positive and forward-looking atmosphere.

As you have probably seen the prime minister of Israel has said that he is hoping to meet with his Palestinian counterparts in the next several weeks. That means there is commitment from both sides to get together and try and move the process forward, which I think for all of us is a very welcome sign.

MANN: Well, some people would question if indeed there is a commitment from both sides, if the Palestinians have to set their own directions first. The Israeli leader has said he can't meet with them as long as there are gun battles in the streets over the authority of the Palestinian president and as long as Hamas is still declaring open war on Israel. Do you see this point? KING ABDULLAH: I see that point, but at the same time if we are not going to talk to each other, then nothing goes forward. We have to understand the problems on the ground, we have to deal with them, and I think all parties are concerned and know what needs to be done.

But, I am actually very pleased that it indicating to the people on the ground, and I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of Israelis and Palestinians that are suffering because of the difficulties on the ground, want to see hope. They want to see that the political levels are talking to each others and want to move the peace process forward.

So, today I think is a sign of hope. There is light in the end of the tunnel. It's obviously a tough road but the Israelis and Palestinians are not alone. They need our support, not just Jordan but also the international community, to make sure that the next couple of weeks are successful, that when the Israeli and Palestinian leaderships sit down together there is actually something that the can be able to move forward.

MANN: Can I ask you more about the internal affairs in the Palestinian leadership? There are widespread media reports that Israel transferred nearly 1,000 M-16 rifles to the Palestinian Authority with Jordan's help, with the help of your government, to better arm it in case of confront with Hamas. Is that true?

KING ABDULLAH: Well, no, this is not, I think, related to specifics.

As you've known for a while, Jordan and Egypt, as well as the international community, have been working with the Israelis to try and give more capability, practical capability, to the security forces in the West Bank. And I think what you saw was just, I think, a coming of minds between the Israelis and Palestinians that really Mahmoud Abbas needs to be able to have all the security services more capable in being able to deal with any lawlessness or any other conflicts that they're facing on the ground.

MANN: Well, it's more than lawlessness. People talk about an arms race between Fattah and Hamas right now. You're in a better position than most people to know about that. Is there one underway? Are both sides stockpiling weapons? And was that once again part of the reason that those rifles went over the Allenby (ph) Bridge at midnight?

KING ABDULLAH: I, surly, hope it's not the case. There would be nothing worse than Palestinians, whatever side of the fence they've decided to sit on, to goad each other. This could be disastrous, not only for Palestinians, but for Israelis and Jordanians.

We have been working on the security issue for many years. I think this is part of strengthening the security services. I think the Israelis realize that Palestinians need to be encouraged, to be able to move forward. To have Palestinians conflicting against each other would be disastrous to all of us. So I hope that your question, my answer would be no, and I hope that never comes about.

MANN: Would you trust Hamas? I ask that question because back in April your own government arrested several members of Hamas, accusing them of plotting attacks against your Kingdom.

KING ABDULLAH: We're waiting, as the offer was made when we captured the weapons caches in Jordan several months ago. We reached out to people in the territories and said that we would like the government to be able to send both a political and a security team to come to Jordan, because there were doubts that there was actually a case of weapons been found in our country, for them to be able to investigate a long side with us the reason behind that and to be able to move forward. And we are still waiting for the government to be able to come and talk to us on these issues and our invitation is still open.

MANN: So, as far as you're concerned, the evidence is that Hamas tried to launch a terror attack against people and property in Jordan?

KING ABDULLAH: Well, they didn't launch a terrorist attack. We found stockpiles of weapons that could have been used in the future, which was of tremendous concern for all Jordanians, and I believe for the majority of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza.

And as I said, we are still hoping that our colleagues on the other side will respond and be able to send their teams to be able to investigate this very serious issue and hopefully be able to move forward from there.

MANN: Now, you wrote a very moving, I should say, article for the "International Herald Tribune" and you talked about your hopes for the region, and you wrote that "Real peace agreements are not just written on paper, but also inscribed on hearts."

There is a very profound debate right now in the Palestinian community about whether its government will be prepared to make peace with Israel. Part of it has been fought in the streets, but ordinary people have to decide, the government has to decide, Hamas has to decide.

The negotiations are ongoing, but whatever the legalistic agreement that comes through, do you think that Hamas really is prepared, as you say, to inscribe peace in their hearts?

KING ABDULLAH: Well, what's the alternative? The alternative is more bloodshed and suffering for Palestinians and Israelis and for the rest of us in the region.

What we're trying to do is reach out to the common person, because at the end of the day they're the ones that are suffering. It's the average Israeli, the average Palestinian, that is paying the price. And they are the overwhelming majority that do not want violence, that do not want to live in insecurity and they want to be able to provide a better life for their families. And so, those are the hearts we are reaching out to.

For those who are in politics that do not have a heart, I think they have to listen to the people and have a change of heart, I hope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We'll hear more from the king in a moment, but first his most closely watched guests in Petra, the Israeli and Palestinian leaders, two men who met but who still haven't sat down together to address the problems they face.

Israeli Prime Minister Olmert explains the holdup this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHUD OLMERT, ISRAELI PRIME MIN.: Abu Mazen is a genuine person. He comes with serious intention that ought to be recognized and respected, but to the best of my knowledge, he is not the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority. And the political power is not with him. It's with a government that is controlled by a terrorist organization which is boycotted by the entire world, civilized world -- not by Iran, not by Hezbollah, not by the Islamic Jihad, not by al Qaeda, which all of these finance them -- but by the rest of the world. And no one is prepared to negotiate with this government. Why should I?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Abu Mazen, better known as President Abbas, was also less than categorical about what the future would hold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABU MAZEN, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We have talked about the various general issues. There is an idea that we will meet again in the near future for our second meeting. Preparations will start next week, and then we'll meet again and decide what we will agree on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, more of my conversation with the King. Trading fire in and out of Gaza.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Even Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is troubled by scenes like this one, recent air attacks on what Israel calls terrorist targets that have killed innocent civilians. Olmert said Thursday he felt deep regret for the death of innocent Palestinians. "It is against our policy," he said, "and I am very, very sorry."

Welcome back.

King Abdullah had some thoughts about the exchange of fire in and out of Gaza. We'll pick up with our interview with him in a moment, but first, Paula Hancocks has this look at the growing doubts inside Israel at what its own military is doing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The funeral of two Palestinians, a pregnant woman and her brother, killed on Wednesday in another Israeli missile strike gone wrong. The missile's target was a car full of militants. Instead it hit a family in their Gaza home as they sat down to dinner. The second missile attack in as many days to kill civilians; Tuesday, an attack on a Gaza refugee camp missed the militants and killed three children.

Israeli missile strikes have killed 14 Palestinian civilians in recent attacks. The United Nations has called on Israel to stop targeted killings as too many civilians are becoming victims.

Defending Israel's policy, officials claim Palestinian militants shoot rockets into Israel from the protection of civilian neighborhoods.

BINYAMIN BEN ELIEZER, ISRAELI SECURITY CABINET MINISTER: Well, it's happened. You know, once you are in a war, it's happened. This is not pharmacy, it's a war. And once they are shooting and using civilians and families and schools, it's happened.

HANCOCKS: Few Israelis believe the strikes should stop. But as pictures of dead and injured Palestinian children feature on the front pages, there is unease at recent events.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes me very sad that civilians are getting hurt in this situation. But I also know that Israel doesn't want to hurt civilians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hate the loss of life -- especially these children, when they're growing up, you know, their life are not really mature and full of life. But we have to defend ourselves. I mean, that's just the bottom line here.

HANCOCKS: But others say the world needs to remember that Israeli civilians are targeted on purpose by Palestinian militants.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right where we're standing there have been bombs. Just up the road there were bombs. In Spiro Restaurant there were bombs. How many innocent Israelis have also been killed by crazy Palestinians coming with, you know, suicide bombers, coming with their belts on them, killing themselves?

HANCOCKS: However, some on the political left believe there should be a halt to the missile strikes.

YOSSI BEILIN, CHAIRMAN, MERETZ PARTY: The innocent life toll is too high. One can understand that, from time to time, especially when terrorists are hiding behind civilians, things like this happen. But it is too often. And there are too many people who were killed in this way.

HANCOCKS: Palestinian groups, including Hamas, which leads the government, have threatened retaliation for the civilian deaths.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These Israeli criminals which targeted and killed two martyrs and killed a huge number of children, these crimes show that we are facing war crimes against the Palestinian citizens.

HANCOCKS: Israel's chief of staff says there will be an investigation into recent attacks, but that will do little to calm anger in Gaza.

(on camera): The commander of Israel's air force has insisted that these missile attacks will continue. There will be extra vigilance taken when firing missiles into areas where civilians could be hurt, but the commander insists that since the Israeli pullout from Gaza, This is the only way the Israeli army can target the militants in the area.

For INSIGHT, I'm Paula Hancocks, in Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: The king weighed his words carefully, but urged caution on both sides.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING ABDULLAH: Any response has to be done with responsibility. We have seen the tragic events that have unfolded on civilians. We have made our opinions very clear to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. When we see the same images that everybody else sees on TV of innocent people losing their lives, this doesn't help anybody.

Whatever the politics are, we all have a moral obligation to make sure that civilians are protected as much as possible. And, therefore, we have to be responsible for all our actions.

MANN: You're trying to be very even-handed, and I respect your position, but I want to give you one example, which is the Israeli border town, which is (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which has been receiving almost daily attacks from the Palestinian side. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is where the Israeli defense minister actually makes his home. Attacking that town from Gaza after Israel withdrew seems like a very clear and intentional provocation on the Palestinian side. The Palestinian Authority is seemingly unable to stop it.

KING ABDULLAH: Well, there are those I think on all sides of the conflict that want to have the majority going at each others' throats, and I think this is where we have to be very responsible. Yes, I'm sure that action brings reaction, but what we want to do is make sure that there is a clear definition and an understanding that there are extremists out there trying to unsettle the process, to make sure that there is such an atmosphere that both sides can't talk.

Today we had an opportunity of seeing Palestinian and Israeli leadership sitting around a table and breaking bread. With the announcements of the prime minister of Israel at one of his sessions identifying the need for both sides to be able to sit down and move the process forward. This is the atmosphere that we need to concentrate upon. The problem is, if we're going to get into the tit for tat mentality, we'll never get anywhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Once again we have to take a break. When we come back, the kingdom's campaign against al Qaeda.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Al Qaeda's Abu Mus'ab al Zarqawi was born in Jordan and he was blamed for several attacks in the kingdom. Authorities said that foiled a plan series of bombings to coincide with millennium celebrations in the year 2000. But Jordan suffered a one death in the missile attack in the port of Aqaba. And then three coordinated hotel bombings last November that took 60 lives. Welcome back.

Al Zarqawi was killed in a U.S. air strike earlier this month after U.S. intelligence found him, with Jordan's help. The kingdom's role has never been entirely clear, though. Here's what the King himself had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING ABDULLAH: There was a Jordanian role, that's obvious, and this is nothing new. We've been working with the international community for many years in combating extremism and trying to go after the terrorists that are hurting all of us.

I am actually very proud that the Jordanians managed to have an active role in this. But this is -- this IS not just the end of the book. This is just a chapter. And, you know, terrorism is going to be out there for a while longer. And we in the international community need to continue to work together to oppose these threats.

MANN: Now, there is said to be a much more aggressive effort underway, though, by your intelligence service, since the tragic hotel attacks back in November. Jordanian intelligence agents are said to be authorized now to actually cross boarders and lure terrorist targets into Jordan for capture. At least one case has been celebrated. Is that a fair assessment of what your people are doing now?

KING ABDULLAH: Well, after the bombings in Amman, I had to visit the wounded in hospital, I went to pay my respects of the families of the victims of those bombings, and in their lowest of moments, when they had lost love ones and the people they cared for very much, they asked me what we were going to do. And I said that those who perpetrated these horrible acts will be brought to justice, and this is what we did. And this is what we going to continue to do.

MANN: The al Qaeda's logistic chief, a man named al Karboli, confessed on Jordanian television last month to some of the crimes he had been accused of. He in particularly, was he really lured across the border by your agents? That's a remarkable story. We would love to hear more of it.

KING ABDULLAH: Unfortunately, I can't really go into the details, but it was something that the army and the intelligence service managed to set up and we do have him in custody and I think this is just a series of operations that are underway at the moment.

MANN: Now four members of the Jordanian parliament were arrested last month after they paid a different kind of condolence visit, not a visit to the victims' families, but a victim -- rather a visit to al Zarqawi's family. They were arrested. Human rights groups are saying that however offensive their gesture may have been, that clearly it should not be legal to express opinions and visit family members.

What do you tell them? What do you tell the world about why those men are in jail?

KING ABDULLAH: Jonathan, this is a lot more than just a four MPs. You have to understand that we have a battle against extremism in our part of the world. We didn't just come up with Amman Message of trying to galvanize the Muslim moderate majority to be able to stand up for what's right and what's wrong, to be able to identify that these people who believe in killing innocent people have nothing to do with Islam. We don't believe in rhetoric.

This is a battle that is going now inside of Islamic or Muslim societies and people have to make their mind over where they are going to stand in this issue. You can not be in the position to encourage terrorism or to say that killing of innocent people is right. These people said that Zarqawi was a hero and all those people who lost their lives in the hotel bombings are not going to go to heaven. They have no right as lawmakers to be able to make those distinctions.

Our difficulty now is the challenge of being able to get people, not just in my country but throughout the Middle East and throughout the world, to have a zero tolerance, acceptance for terrorism. We have to decide what side of the fence we're going to stand on. Otherwise, terrorism at the end of the day is going to win. And at this stage, we in Jordan have this very major debate inside of our society. And Jordanians are having to wake up to the fact, as many Muslims around the world, whether terrorists or support of terrorism is acceptable. And as far as I'm concerned, that is not the case. Otherwise, all we're doing is talking the talk.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: His Royal Highness King Abdullah, of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

That's INSIGHT. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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