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Q&A

Q&A

Aired April 02, 2002 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Yasser Arafat, the president of the Palestinian Authority, a prisoner in his own compound.

ARIEL SHARON, PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL (through translator): Yasser Arafat is the head of a coalition of terrorism. He operates an infrastructure of terrorism.

VERJEE: Can Arafat stop the suicide bombings in Israel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is neither capable of persuading the people who are willing to die for what they consider to be really their cause, nor is he able to discipline, because the Israelis totally destroyed his police force.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: And I think Yasser Arafat has declared a terror war on Israel. He is nightly and daily calling for 1 million shaheedeen, a million suicide bombers, in Jerusalem.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'd like to see Chairman Arafat denounce the terrorist activities that are taking place.

VERJEE: On Q&A, Yasser Arafat -- what can he do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Welcome to Q&A. I'm Zain Verjee.

Yasser Arafat is reportedly eating tinned meat loaf from Israeli army rations. He is sitting in candlelight, he has no water, and he's using his mobile phone quite sparingly because there's no electricity to charge it. Arafat is being asked by Israel and the United States to stop the suicide bombings that have killed Israeli civilians.

Will he do it? Can he do it? With us in Jerusalem is Ra'anan Gissin, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Mr. Gissin, how is Yasser Arafat supposed to stop the suicide bombings when he's trapped in his compound? He can't function at a very basic level and is effectively a prisoner of Israel.

RA'ANAN GISSIN, ARIEL SHARON SPOKESMAN: You know he had so many opportunities in the past 18 months before he started this war. And during the time that he started this war of terrorism, assembled the coalition of terrorist groups that has taken the lives of over 417 Israelis. We are now in the second holiday of Passover -- a very somber holiday -- because we still remember and still bury the dead of the first holiday, which happened to turn out to be the Passover massacre. And this was by orders initiated from his own compound.

You know that we have found material in his compound -- incriminating material -- that shows the direct connection that the Palestinian Authority had in instigating the suicide bombers, in sending money to the families, in ordering the purchase of explosives in order to create those suicide (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So all fingers point to his culpability.

Now we have offered an opportunity for Mr. Arafat to stop it.

VERJEE: But -- hold on. Everything that you have said doesn't make sense with what you are actually doing. For instance, today, you attacked the Palestinian security compound where one man in the Palestinian security infrastructure -- this is the one man, Jibril Rajoub, who cooperates with Israeli security, who really cracks down on Palestinians. And you are targeting him, destroying Arafat's infrastructure to crack down and then blaming Arafat for it. It's not logical. Can you explain that?

GISSIN: Well yes. You stand to be corrected, because for the past several months, I would say, security forces of Yasser Arafat, including that of Jibril Rajoub, cooperated with a terrorist. And that -- it's not surprising that about 200 of them found refuge in his compound.

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: Your own intelligence services -- your own intelligence services say Jibril Rajoub is a man that really cooperated with the Israelis. He's a man that was disliked by the Palestinian people because of what he was trying to do. He was the one man who was cracking down, and you were out to get him?

GISSIN: But that's a very -- that exactly points out to the difficulty in the situation, where he has to play both sides. In other words, on the one hand, do his job, which is really to fight terrorism. On the other hand, succumb to terrorism, because these terrorists are terrorizing Palestinian streets and Palestinian life as well as ours. And that's why we have reached an agreement today in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and I can report to you right now that in progress is the evacuation of that compound. And there's no more shooting.

Those who are -- need treatment in hospitals are sent to hospitals. The others will be stopped for interrogation. Those who have nothing to do with terrorism will be released, the others will be placed in custody.

VERJEE: OK.

GISSIN: In custody that Yasser Arafat should have done.

VERJEE: The Palestinian argument is -- hold on. The Palestinian argument is that they say back in 1996, yes, Yasser Arafat could reign in the militants, yes he could stop the suicide bombings. But that was because there was a political process on the table, and the Palestinian people said, You know what, there's some optimism there. That's what we want.

But now there's nothing on the table. There is just despair, defeat, devastation inflicted on the Palestinian people no matter who is to blame here. That's what's happening. And they're throwing their support behind people like Hamas because they have no other choice. And that has been inflicted, the Palestinians say, by Israel, by Ariel Sharon.

GISSIN: Well, let me answer to that. Let's not get confused with the lies -- with the web of lies that is being webbed here, and let's look at the facts. What happened in Camp David? What happened before Sharon came to power? He was offered the most generous offer which was backed by President Clinton. He could have had 97 percent of the territory. That was the offer that...

VERJEE: But, hold on -- hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

GISSIN: But he rejected that.

VERJEE: That is always -- that is always your argument. Yasser Arafat rejected that, but that was only an oral agreement, there was nothing written.

GISSIN: Exactly.

VERJEE: There was progress that was made in Taba, and they came close to a deal in Taba. But what happened after that, Barak lost the election, Clinton was a lame duck, nothing could be done, Ariel Sharon came into power and the whole Oslo process unraveled after that.

GISSIN: No, I'm sorry -- no...

VERJEE: So respond.

GISSIN: No, I'm sorry. It unraveled before. It unraveled before because the decision to go to that war, the decision to launch a war of terrorism, adopt a strategy of terror, started long before the Barak government fell and long before Sharon -- then the head of the opposition - - walked on Temple Mount. We have the documents to prove that.

VERJEE: OK, last...

GISSIN: And the documents that we found today incriminate Yasser Arafat. They show exactly that this...

VERJEE: Last question for you, sir. What is it that you believe Yasser Arafat can do right now, in 20 seconds?

GISSIN: Well if he would just pick up the phone and call his people to stop the suicide bombing. Exactly what the United States asked of him. This would be a first step. He still has a phone. He's using it for incitement, not for peace. He can choose between or another tragedy for his people. He chose the wrong road.

VERJEE: Ra'anan Gissin, thank you sir.

Joining us now on the telephone from Jerusalem is Hanan Ashrawi. She's a member of the Palestinian legislature.

Ms. Ashrawi, what about it then? Why can't Yasser Arafat pick up the phone, stop inciting people, as Mr. Gissin is saying, and call for peace and an end to the bloodshed.

HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: Well the thing is, do you want me to start responding to all these allegations and fiction and spin that Mr. Gissin repeatedly spouts forth on CNN, or do you want me to deal with facts? If you want to deal with facts, President Arafat is a prisoner; there's no other word.

He's a hostage. He's being pressured and blackmailed. They're attempting to humiliate him. They've already isolated him. They have struck at his security forces, they have tried in every possible way to undermine him. And Mr. Sharon, from the beginning, from the day he carried out his incursion into the Haram e-Sharif -- has got his way.

He has a plan in motion, a plan that was already preset to unravel the peace process; to destroy and deconstruct everything that was built; to go back to the mentality of '48; to use only the language of violence, of ethnic cleansing, and of attempting to subjugate the Palestinian people.

VERJEE: But Ra'anan Gissin, though, has made the point, and he said, Look, Yasser Arafat basically failed in cracking down on the militants before. There was not 100 percent effort there. And he suggests that there wasn't really even the intention there. And so there was nothing but for the Israelis to go in and do the job themselves. So it's really Yasser Arafat's fault that he's sitting in there in his compound alone and effectively a prisoner of Israel.

ASHRAWI: Yes, I heard that, Zain. But let me tell you exactly, President Arafat was able to call for complete quiet for three weeks, even though only Palestinians were being killed. December 16, he declared the unilateral cease-fire. He tried to make Zinni's mission succeed. Not a single operation took place while Israel was constantly attacking the Palestinians, carrying out assassinations, keeping the siege, maintaining settlement activities, expanding settlements, killing Palestinians. And they didn't do anything even in self-defense, because President Arafat promised them that the Zinni mission would provide a political avenue, would provide hope.

VERJEE: Well...

ASHRAWI: Now -- no, instead of responding, instead of the Americans saying, OK, President Arafat delivered his promises. He really performed the mission impossible, instead, we get Sharon with a whole series of assassinations. He killed 20 people yesterday and...

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: But hold on -- hold on. Ra'anan Gissin is saying that there is evidence that they have to prove that Yasser Arafat knows about these suicide bombings, he's connected to them. And they have the documents to prove it.

ASHRAWI: I would need a very large grain of salt to believe these things. Very frankly, we have heard all sorts of allegations. They allege that there are weapons and armed people in ambulances. That's their rationale for why they stop ambulances and allow people to die, to bleed to...

ASHRAWI: ... death. They've entered hospitals saying their looking for armed people. They're saying they have evidence of Arafat's involvement.

VERJEE: OK.

ASHRAWI: Let them show this. We have asked for observers, we have asked for independent monitors.

VERJEE: OK, look, I just want to -- I'm sorry, I just want to address something that you mentioned. What about the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? They suggest that there's evidence that there's a connection there with Yasser Arafat. And, I mean, it has claimed responsibility for suicide bombings. It is affiliated to the militant wing of the Fatah party. Doesn't Yasser Arafat have direct control over something like the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, that are basically his boys?

ASHRAWI: Yes. President Arafat has direct links to al Fatah as a political organization. Fatah is a political group. Now there are all sorts of different groupings that took place, that formed themselves spontaneously underground in different areas as a result of the Israeli massive incursions, as a result of the killing and the...

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: So you're saying that he cannot control Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Can he control them or not?

ASHRAWI: I do not think -- I do not think that anybody gives central command to Al Aqsa Brigade or anybody else. This is a people under occupation, under siege. They are being shelled and bombed. The formations took place in different cities and towns. There are individual actions also taking place out of desperation, out of revenge, out of politics. However...

VERJEE: But Israeli intelligence says -- I just want to stick with Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

ASHRAWI: Yes.

VERJEE: The Israeli intelligence says this group that carries out suicide bombings in Israel proper is funded by the coffers of the Palestinian Authority.

ASHRAWI: Well they're going to allege many things. As I said, we are willing to accept independent investigators. We are willing to accept international voices. We are willing to accept observers and monitors. I am tired of having the Israeli version of reality that is so manufactured being displayed and being repeated ad nauseum without a set of proof or evidence.

I would like to see, really, third-party intervention. We need monitors and observers. We've called for them repeatedly. What does Israel have to fight -- hide? Why do they always air all these allegations without any proof, and whenever we say, OK, provide it all. Let's have third-party investigation, neutral investigation.

VERJEE: OK.

ASHRAWI: Then they refuse.

VERJEE: OK.

ASHRAWI: I will tell you frankly, I have no idea who funds whom. This place is a place of survival. People are being attacked, shelled, stabbed...

VERJEE: OK, Ms. Ashrawi, you've made that point. My last question to you, 20 seconds, is Yasser Arafat in the situation he's in right now pretty much a lame duck and he can't do anything and he can't lead his people out of this?

ASHRAWI: Right now Yasser Arafat does not have direct command, but he has very frankly a stature that has become legendary. And attempting to de-legitimize him, what Sharon has actually been doing is to rally everybody behind Yasser Arafat. Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and all people of conscience who understand that Israeli arrogance and Israeli racism has gone way beyond any limits.

VERJEE: Hanan Ashrawi, thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: One Israeli newspaper, "Ha'aretz," says in its opinion page, "The more Arafat is humiliated, the more terror will multiply." It goes on to say, "Sharon will soon discover that a jailed, humiliated Arafat can inflict more damage than an Arafat on the loose." How accurate is that statement?

Joining us in Washington, Tamara Wittes, with the Middle East Institute, and also in Washington, Marc Ginsberg, the former U.S. Ambassador to Morocco.

Tamara, you first. Given the situation, is Yasser Arafat directly or indirectly going to cause more damage to Israel?

TAMARA WITTES, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Well, I think Israel has succeeded right now in holding him more or less incommunicado relative to the security forces in the West Bank and Gaza. And they've also succeeded in getting the international spotlight to focus on him and his status and less so on the actions they're taking elsewhere in the territories.

VERJEE: Marc, Israel and the United States say, Look, Arafat is central to this. Over the last few days we've been hearing them say, Arafat, crack down on the militants. Stop the suicide bombings. Can he do it?

MARC GINSBERG, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: I think there's a great deal of conjecture whether he can right now, sitting in the confined quarters that he is, not being in adequate contact with the Arab world. At the same time, I'm not sure that the issue here that most people are trying to wrestle with is being addressed adequately.

There's a fundamental issue about dealing with Israeli security concerns. And there is a fundamental issue over what is Mr. Arafat's objectives. I don't believe that he politically, at this point in time, would ever call for a cessation of violence without the Sharon government offering him a political vision whereby he could justify that type of call. He has put himself in his own trap at this point, and frankly it's a trap that I think he was prepared to get into in the first place.

VERJEE: There has been some debate, also, Marc and Tamara, about the varying degrees to which Yasser Arafat can have control over various militant groups. And I just want to run through them very quickly and have you talk to me about them.

Let's first start with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Tamara, who are they? Can Arafat control them?

WITTES: Well they are an offshoot of the Tanzim, which is the Fatah street militia. That's the Fatah, being the main secular nationalist party and movement within the Palestine Liberation Organization. Fatah is Arafat's party, he's been the head of it since its founding. And so the documents found today suggesting a tie between financing of Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and the Palestinian Authority can be very disturbing.

VERJEE: What about Hamas, Marc?

GINSBERG: Hamas has been both a political and has a military wing that has been formed in the territories actually to politically confront Arafat and his more moderate elements, which is why I believe he was instrumental in helping to form the Al Aqsa Brigades. It is funded largely by charitable contributions not only from the Muslim world, but also from the United States, which has been cut off and it has been declared a terrorist organization by the United States.

VERJEE: So can he control them?

GINSBERG: How do you control them? Well, frankly...

VERJEE: Can Arafat control them or not?

GINSBERG: Arafat can only arrest its leadership and has proven that he could do that several years ago. But he can't control them unless he arrests their leadership.

VERJEE: Tamara, what about the PFLP, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine?

WITTES: Well this is another secular nationalist movement that over the years, since the Oslo declaration, has gone back and forth in its alliances with Arafat, its support for the peace process. In this uprising, it has again taken an opposition role.

I think that with all of these organizations, what you see is an attempt by younger generations of activists, those with street credibility, who have engaged in armed confrontation with Israelis, to try and assert their leadership and challenge Arafat and his generation.

VERGEE: Islamic Jihad, Marc, can Yasser Arafat control them or not?

GINSBERG: Islamic Jihad is far more based in Gaza than it is in the West Bank. It has been a Muslim organization, but it has large ties to Iran as well as to the Hezbollah and into Syria and the support network that -- through Egypt as well. He -- the leader -- the leader of Islamic Jihad is a blind cleric that is in Gaza. Arafat has had a very shaky relationship with the leadership of Islamic Jihad. They have had a sort of benevolent and at times confrontational relationship.

Again, if he wanted to exercise his dominion through his security forces at the time before the Israelis began making it very difficult for him to do so, he could have arrested its leadership. I'm not sure he has the forces now to do that.

VERGEE: The forces and perhaps also, Tamara, public opinion -- the Palestinian public opinion is not behind him right now necessarily because there's no political process. So he can't do anything about that. How serious do you think the sway of public opinion is playing right now to Yasser Arafat's intention or capability to reigning in anyone?

WITTES: Well I think public opinion is important. As Marc said, I think that there needs to be some sort of political process, something Arafat can point to, to show people that there is a reason to forego violence. Right now, their mistrust of Israeli intentions is quite intense and quite justified. So without some indication that the Sharon government, if terrorism were brought under control, would be willing to engage in a serious political process, there's no reason for Arafat to make such a risky move.

GINSBERG: See, I have to say -- and I'd like to jump in here -- that the main problem here is that Mr. -- we have to deal with the facts and offer a vision forward. These two peoples clearly are going to have to find a way to address the problems that are separating them.

Mr. Arafat made a calculated decision to reject the Barak government's initiative, as well as to negotiate a final agreement at Taba, on the eve of the Clinton administration. He has not conditioned his population to accept anything less than what he believes is the rightful patrimony of the Palestinians. Under these circumstances, it's going to take an intervening force such as the United States and moderate Arab regimes to offer both the Palestinians and Israelis a vision out of the mess that they're in. The best basis from which to start are the principles that were articulated in the Mitchell plan and that were left on the table with the Palestinians and with the Israelis at Taba.

I'm afraid that all this focus on Mr. Arafat misses the point. He is not a person who is really prepared to negotiate anything that represents a compromisable solution with the Israelis. We're going to have to unwind the cycle of violence. But if the Israelis are going to find some confidence in a partner and not reward violence, they're going to have to be in effect cajoled back to the negotiation table with a more moderate Palestinian leadership.

VERGEE: Tamara, what if Yasser Arafat is killed?

WITTES: Well, I think that would be a tremendous setback. Certainly in the Arab world there would be outrage and violence and a great deal of pressure on Arab regimes. But I think, too, it's very important to realize that we -- that Arafat -- I agree with Marc on this. Arafat is not the central character. Israel needs to somehow find a balance between combating terrorism -- and if that requires arresting activists, it needs to do so -- but still preserve some path for the future. It needs to not destroy all of its potential partners in peace negotiations down the road.

VERGEE: Marc, is the problem then not necessarily Yasser Arafat right now, but Ariel Sharon?

GINSBERG: Well there's no doubt that, you know, we're almost witnessing the repeat of 1982, when Mr. Sharon tried to drive Arafat into exile and succeeded. The Palestinian people have suffered tremendously under duress. They're entitled to a state. They need to have a vision of peace and they need to be able to see the Israelis as a people who they can live side by side with.

The Israelis need security. It's clear that -- I'm afraid that neither Mr. Sharon nor Mr. Arafat offer either of their peoples an adequate vision. But it's no doubt that what Mr. Arafat is trying to do is to play his last card. He has condoned these terrorist attacks. And I hear all the propaganda coming out of the Palestinian Authority. And the Israelis, at this point in time, certainly led by a government that has shown no real vision forward for the Palestinians either.

This is why we need an intervening force here to try to bring some semblance of normalcy back to a process, rather than let these two men go at each other.

VERGEE: OK. You suggested -- both of you -- that Arafat is not necessarily central or key to this whole thing, but it's certainly being sold as such by Israel, by the United States as well. If he isn't, then who is the key to all of this, Tamara?

GINSBERG: I don't think it's a question of whether or not it's either him or no one else. The Arab League delegated to the Palestinians in 1963 responsibility for negotiating their fate. The Palestinians rejected the best offer on the table that the Israelis and virtually anyone else, including Arab leaders, considered to be a very reasonable opportunity. Therefore, it's going to take, I think, some real careful deliberations by the Arab League...

VERGEE: OK.

GINSBERG: ... to rethink whether or not they need to step in here and play a much more forceful role to offer the Palestinians what was placed on the table that Arafat rejected.

VERGEE: Tamara...

GINSBERG: Arafat's rejection will not lead the Israelis anywhere.

VERGEE: ... I'd like to get -- sorry, Marc, I just want to get Tamara's view in here before we close. What will or should Yasser Arafat do now?

WITTES: Well I think at this stage, both Sharon and Arafat have settled on an attempt to determine the outcome of this conflict unilaterally. And we need to get them both back to the stage where they recognize and act upon the realization that they can't do that. There is no unilateral solution either to the problem of Israeli security or to the Palestinians yearning for statehood. It has to be worked out together.

VERGEE: Tamara Wittes, with the Middle East Institute of Peace, Marc Ginsberg, the former U.S. Ambassador to Morocco, thanks for being on Q&A.

GINSBERG: Sure.

VERGEE: The news continues here on CNN.

END

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