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Jane Velez-Mitchell
What Caused California Killer to Shoot?
Aired May 27, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HLN ANCHOR: It is stories of courage, post from the home front. It airs Monday at 7 p.m. on HLN. In the meantime, Jane Velez- Mitchell is up next.
JOEY JACKSON, HOST: Tonight, shock and horror as a Southern California town is left reeling after a bloody shooting spree at a college campus. We are learning brand-new information tonight about the 22-year- old murderer from his chilling YouTube videos and his own manifesto. In it, he details his rage and his hatred of women who would not sleep with him, saying they deserved to die. Did this sick and twisted man have a vendetta against women?
A pleasant good evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson filling in for my good friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Thanks so much for joining us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White male, 20 years old.
ELLIOT RODGER, SHOOTER: The day in which I will have my revenge against humanity.
My problem is girls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "He has a gun, he has a gun." And ran right into our house.
RODGER: You do deserve it. Just for the crime of living a better life than me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could happen to any family.
RODGER: Beautiful environment is the darkest hell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When will this insanity stop?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looked directly at me. He talked to me, and then he just shot at me multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Shots fired.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Responsible for gunshot victims.
RODGER: Against all of you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JACKSON: Sick, twisted and oh so sad. So cops say that 22-year-old Elliot Rodger started his evil rampage Friday inside his own apartment. He slashed and killed two roommates and another friend with a knife. Investigators say that Rodgers then drove over to the college campus, and he knocked on the door of a sorority house that was filled with young women. And when no one answered, he opened fire on three people who were standing on the front lawn. He killed two of them.
He then drove to a deli and killed yet another student, before driving around, shooting pedestrians and running over bike riders until he finally crashed his car. He then put a bullet in his own head.
Tonight, we are learning just how disturbed Rodgers [SIC] really was. Writing his entire story in a 137-page manifesto, which he entitled "My Twisted World: The Story of Elliot Rodger," in which he blames women, porn and the popular kids for ruining his life and keeping him a virgin.
He is obsessed with why women won`t date him. And in his final video posted on YouTube, Rodger says it`s the, quote, "day of retribution." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge against humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: We want to take you right now to the UCSB campus, where this horrific tragedy happened. A memorial is just getting under way for all the victims of this horrific tragedy.
You know, tonight we want to hear from you. Call me, please, at 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
As you might imagine, we have a fantastic Lion`s Den panel that`s ready to debate this. And Wendy, I want to go straight to you. You`re a former prosecutor. Is this a rage against women, and is it a rage in general? Or is this psychotic man just looking for revenge against anyone and everyone who ever insulted him? What do you think, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I suppose it could be both, Joey. Look, I am sick of people saying that this is what angry men do when they`re raging toward women who won`t have sex with them.
First of all, the guy was kind of cute. Obviously, the women who didn`t have sex with him had very good judgment! He was a monster.
JACKSON: Apparently.
MURPHY: Having sex with a creepy guy like that. Get a message, right?
What I think is interesting about this guy is him saying not "I feel rejected, I feel sad and here`s my anger." He said, "I was entitled. I wanted it. I couldn`t get it, and I killed people because they didn`t give me what I wanted." That`s called male entitlement.
And when he didn`t get what he wanted as a big man on campus, he shoots up the women. That`s a sickness in this country. That`s evil.
JACKSON: Now -- and it`s a great point, Wendy, to be made. So Dr. Judy Ho, I want to go to you. You`re a clinical psychologist. How does something like this even occur? To Wendy`s point, is it entitlement? Is it that they rebuffed him and, therefore, he was going to exact his pound of flesh upon everyone?
Take us through the mental health that a person has to be under to do something as horrific as what he did here.
DR. JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Joey, that`s a great question. And just to go off of what Wendy said, entitlement is definitely part of the picture.
When we look at the research and what has happened in the past, people who tend to do these mass shootings at schools, at movie theatres, they tend to fit a certain profile. They tend to be single young males who are from an affluent or at least middle upper class family.
This idea of entitlement makes them feel like their own personal struggles are the world`s problems. So a difference between somebody like this, versus somebody who comes from maybe an average social demographic background is that they tend to, if they get this point into their severity of their mental health, will end up taking it out on their family members, on their intimate partners.
But these people who go and take it out on society, there`s definitely an entitlement piece here.
Now as far as how the mental health developed to this point, we know that Elliot has had Asperger`s, but that`s not the entire picture. Clearly, most people with Asperger`s are not violent. There`s a lot of other issues that he has.
And one of them is that he attributes hostility to everybody around him. He thinks everybody around him is out to harm him, that anything that happens to him that isn`t positive is personal. And when you go around thinking that the world is something that you must defend yourself against, this is what will happen at the end of the line.
JACKSON: You know, Dr. Judy, I want to just address that whole point, right? Because you take us through it so nicely. Right? Now look at this.
Rodger`s mental illness is very well-documented, and according to his family, he was in therapy since he was 8 years old. But his mental illness and his claim of mental illness, is it just giving him a pass? It sounds like he just hates women. I mean, listen to this from his YouTube video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: You girls have never been attracted to me. I don`t know why you girls aren`t attracted to me. But I will punish you all for it. It`s an injustice, a crime. Because I don`t know what you don`t see in me. I`m the perfect guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now we asked all of you to call us. And before I get right back into the Lion`s Den, I want to talk to Charlie.
Charlie, I think you called, and you have something to say about this horrific act. I think you`re calling from Chicago, is that right, Charlie?
CALLER: Correct, Mr. Joey Jackson. How are you, sir?
JACKSON: Very good. Thank you so much for calling. Go ahead, Charlie.
CALLER: OK. My comment, Mr. Jackson, is I don`t think this kid -- I don`t condone anything he did. But I don`t think it just started the past six months or the past year.
I think maybe in his childhood something happened -- could have -- I`m not a psychiatrist, Mr. Jackson. But something could have happened at an early age. I mean -- he hated women for a long time. This didn`t just come about because some girls rejected him or said no. You know, I mean, we all get rejected sometimes. And we all get the answer no. But this -- he probably was holding onto this for years and years. Who knows, 10, 15 years, you know what I mean?
JACKSON: Charlie, I cannot disagree with you. Absolutely. And for that point, Lisa Lockwood, you`re an investigator. Right? And before I get to the lawyers on the panel, let me ask you. I mean, we`ve got to look into his psychiatric history and to Charlie`s point, this didn`t happen overnight. We already spoke about how, since he was 8 years old, he`s been in therapy.
LISA LOCKWOOD, INVESTIGATOR: That`s right.
JACKSON: So from an investigative perspective, as it relates to him, No. 1, what, if anything, could have been done? And in the future, what do we have to investigate to prevent tragedies like this from happening all too often?
LOCKWOOD: His first meeting with the police, that`s when it should have been an issue. April 30, when Mom called and had concern about him possibly killing himself or endangering somebody. And the police arrived on the scene. That was the opportunity for the police to make an assessment.
Any time somebody threatens to kill themselves, they are authorized to involuntarily have them committed. They should have waited for the parents to come home. They should have searched that bedroom on April 30. If they had done that, that would have been the preemptive strike that would have allowed this event to have never happened.
JACKSON: Absolutely. You know, and it delves deeper than that. And it`s a point well made.
But, you know, in looking at that issue, and I want to go to you, J. Wyndal Gordon. You know, we could examine and we could talk about the police having investigated and having done their job. But could we really leave this to the hands of a police?
I mean, we have dr. Judy Ho. She deals with these from a clinical perspective. She has vast knowledge and education here. So J. Wyndal Gordon, should the police be making an assessment as to whether he`s OK or not?
J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely. I think that there was enough information available to the police at that time, where they could have done a little bit more.
I don`t see this case so much as a mental situation as much as I see this as -- one of the most acute cases of "affluenza." We`ve heard that before. And I tell you, Mark Cuban should be coming back over to the side of the street where the hoodies are if he sees this guy walking down the street, where the black guys are wearing hoodies, because this case just creates a situation where this guy has had too much privilege. Too much entitlement.
And now he`s frustrated -- sexually frustrated. As well as frustrated with the world, because he just can`t -- basically can`t get laid. And for that reason, he decided to kill a whole -- as many people as he could. And I just have a big problem with that.
JACKSON: Well, it`s horrific. We`re going to talk a lot more about the police. Diana Aizman, don`t worry, we didn`t forget about you. We want to hear what you have to say. We`re going to hear about it after the break. And we`re going to talk a lot more about whether this could have been prevented.
You see here the memorial going on right now for him at the college. Excuse me, for the victims at the college. Just a tragedy all the way around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need a second ambulance for another gunshot wound at 6554 Pardhall (ph), I.V. Deli Mart, Code 3.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy. Another ambulance at 6553 Pardhall (ph), I.V. Deli.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Might be another -- another gunshot to the chest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: A horrific tragedy. Welcome back to JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL. I`m Joey Jackson filling in for Jane Velez-Mitchell, a friend of mine.
Now, let me say this. The reality is, as you look at this, this certainly is something that could be prevented. As you could imagine, the victims and their families are reeling. Is it really the reality that we`re standing on streets and, after standing on streets you`re gunned down and you`re shot by someone who is psychotic?
You know, Kyung Lah, she`s a CNN national correspondent. Kyung Lah, you have interviewed the father, Mr. Martinez. What an interview it was. How compelling. And you see, you know, just his feelings and his emotions throughout this whole thing.
Take us through that, Kyung, if you can, and just in terms of what he expressed about whether this could have been prevented and what his hopes are in the future, Kyung.
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Joey, he`s actually going to be speaking at the event that you see behind me. You see all these people who are streaming in.
This is a memorial, and the seating in this stadium is about 17,000. That`s the capacity. They certainly look like they`re going to hit it, if not exceed it. There are so many people who are grieving. And they have come to listen to one of the speakers.
His name is Richard Martinez. He is the father of Chris Martinez. He died at the I.V. Deli Mart. And he sat down with us, speaking at length about the problem of gun violence. That this could have been prevented. That the country needs to address a proliferation of weapons, as well as how we care for people who need mental help services. And he has this message to the lawmakers, who he says their inaction killed his son. Here`s what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD MARTINEZ, FATHER OF GUNSHOT VICTIM: I want my son`s death to mean something. I don`t want him to die and be forgotten. He deserves more than that. So I`m going to do that. I`m going to try to do that.
Where was the help? You know? How is it that, once he was identified as having these problems, he has access to three semiautomatic weapons and 400 rounds?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAH: And what he`s saying is that he wants people to talk to lawmakers. He wants to hold lawmakers accountable, but he`s also very realistic about it, Joey. He says Sandy Hook was not enough to shock this nation. The murder of all of those little children, 6- and 7-year-old children. He wants to make his son`s death mean something. But he is not optimistic that things will change very quickly -- Joey.
JACKSON: Kyung, just one follow-up. Is there any indication that Mr. Martinez is going to join forces perhaps with other people who have been affected by terrible tragedies like this, to perhaps do something by way of legislation?
LAH: He doesn`t have a plan right now. I mean, his -- he`s still -- he`s just coming to grips with the idea that his son was gunned down while trying to get a sandwich on Friday night at his university. So he`s trying to come to grips with that.
But he does want to get this message out there. What we do know is that he has reached out and met with a number of the other parents who have lost children in this tragedy.
He doesn`t know what his plan is. But yes, he wants to do something. He wants to get to lawmakers. He wants to figure out how to get something done. He doesn`t have a specific plan as of yet, though.
JACKSON: Kyung, thank you so much. Kyung Lah, CNN national correspondent. Great work with him. I know it was a very tough interview, Kyung.
If I can go back to the Lion`s Den now. Diana Aizman, I want to address this with you. The father is reeling, and he believes, look, something needs to be done here. How much is it going to take in order for lawmakers perhaps to address the issue of gun control? And in your view, Diana, is it a gun control issue? What`s your take on it?
DIANA AIZMAN, ATTORNEY: I think it could be a gun control issue. I think the deeper issue here is that law enforcement is ill-equipped to handle issues of mental illness.
When they initially make contact with an individual who is suspected of having a mental illness, they don`t really have the training necessary to really identify that.
That being said, I think on the gun control, from the gun control standpoint, these were three lawfully-registered firearms that he purchased within the parameters of California law. And I think that he would have killed a lot less people, had he not been -- had access to those firearms.
JACKSON: Well, I can`t disagree with that, Diana. I mean, the reality is, how does a mentally ill person who`s getting therapy since they`re 8 years old, how to you get your hands on a gun? I think that`s something, certainly, something that we need to...
AIZMAN: And that`s a flaw in the law. Definitely, that`s a flaw in the law.
JACKSON: Without question.
Listen to this of...
GORDON: I had concerns about that he had been suffering from mental illness for so long -- well, Asperger`s. Apparently, he had it under control. But if we`re going to use that as an excuse, then he should not have had access to three weapons and 400 rounds of ammunition. I mean, that -- that is very problematic.
MURPHY: Can we not -- can we please not pretend...
LOCKWOOD: That`s the most difficult part.
GORDON: That`s the easiest part.
JACKSON: Go ahead, Wendy.
MURPHY: Look, look, most gun violence happens at the hands of people who get them illegally! OK? So...
GORDON: He got them legally, and he killed seven people.
MURPHY: So whatever we do to make sure people with Asperger`s don`t get guns, then people with Asperger`s will get them on the street. Stop pretending that making it harder for people -- any law-abiding citizen to get a gun is somehow going to stop the violence. Most violence with guns happens at the hands of criminals who don`t go to regular stores to buy guns and hand up their license to carry.
GORDON: I don`t see that this is pretentious at all.
LOCKWOOD: Thank you, Wendy. Thank you, Wendy. And let`s talk about...
JACKSON: One at a time. Pretty please.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: J. Wyndal and then Diana. Please. Go ahead.
GORDON: I don`t see it being pretentious at all. We just witnessed seven people get shot and most of them killed. So where is the pretentiousness? There`s a gun control problem in this country.
I know you Second Amenders are like, "Oh, give us all the guns so we can shoot and do our hunting devices." But this guy wasn`t using it for hunting; he wasn`t using it for target practice. He was using it for killing people. So you have to take that into account, and factor that into your gun control laws. Because if you want to ignore it or pretend that it doesn`t exist, we`ll continue to have problems with...
JACKSON: Diana, do you agree or disagree?
GORDON: We`ll continue to have problems with the Elliot Rodgers of the world killing mass people.
AIZMAN: I -- yes, I agree completely. I agree completely. I think that, unfortunately, these situations are becoming much more frequent and on larger scales.
And I think that the issue here is that it`s way too easy to get a gun. And people like this probably wouldn`t have gotten a gun if they had to buy it on a street somewhere. I actually disagree with Wendy on that issue.
JACKSON: Much more coming up about the debate about the shooter, about the victims, about the havoc he wreaked on these families, right after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We would die 100 times, 1,000 times, but we don`t want our kids to get hurt. This shouldn`t happen to any family. This should be the last one. In the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Chris died because of crave en, irresponsible politicians and the NRA. They talk about gun rights. What about Chris` right to live? When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say, "Stop this madness. we don`t have to live like this"?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: That`s Mr. Martinez, a heartbroken father, as you might imagine.
So just last month, the shooter made suicidal and homicidal threats on social media. His parents even called cops to his apartment after seeing disturbing videos that he posted on YouTube. But he managed to convince the police that it was just a big misunderstanding, and that he wasn`t a threat to anyone. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found him to be rather shy and timid, polite. Well spoken. He explained to the deputies that it was a misunderstanding, and that he was -- although he was having some social problems, he was able to convince them that he was not at that point a danger to himself or anyone else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So this reminds me of this woman, who cops say tried to kill her three kids by driving them straight into the ocean. Officers pulled over Ebony Wilkerson after a well-being check, right? They wanted to do a well-being check on her, because her family expressed concerns about her mental health. By they said -- the police that is, that she was calm and collected so they let her go.
A few hours later, of course, as we now know, she drives her minivan with her kids inside, straight into the waves of the Atlantic Ocean.
So I want to go right out to the Lion`s Den. And we addressed some of this before. I want to talk about mental health. Police officers, should they be put into a position of making these mental health decisions? The suspect`s parents told cops that, "You know what? He`s dangerous. He has a manifesto, and he`s posting YouTube videos about wanting to kill people."
So the question, it begs the question about whether this could have been prevented. And Wendy Murphy, I want to go to you on this.
Now, the police have a very difficult job. We respect them for what they do. They are heroes in many communities. But should they be making mental health assessments? They`re not trained for that. Don`t you believe or think? And give me your opinion on this, that perhaps mental health professionals should be doing it and not the police themselves?
MURPHY: Well, I think it`s a bit of an overstatement to say that they`re doing mental health assessments. All they`re really doing is using their professional judgment and expertise, and their knowledge of their communities. They`re supposed to know these people, right? They have been around.
And what I find troubling is not do they act like good mental health professionals, because obviously that`s not their expertise. But when the parents are saying, "We`re afraid of our own kid," and the kid says, "Oh, no, I`m all tuned up, I`m good," I think you`re supposed to believe the parents. That`s what I find so troubling about this.
Plus, not for nothing. I know we want to blame the cops. How about the therapist who`s been treating the kid since age 8? That person sucked. Clearly sucked.
JACKSON: Wendy, I hear you.
MURPHY: Come on!
JACKSON: I hear you, but the reality is, is that you are doing an assessment. And I want to go to Dr. Judy before moving on. Because the police were putting them in a position of saying that someone is OK or that they`re not OK. The police, as wonderful as they may be, are not in a position of a Dr. Judy Ho, who can evaluate, ask the right questions, get the right answers, and perhaps be cued onto the fact that something is wrong here.
Dr. Judy, should police be doing this? Should mental health professionals be doing this? How do we get police when they respond to a welfare check to check on someone`s welfare?
HO: That`s right. And you know what? The police are in charge of so many different things and so many pieces of information that this is absolutely not their expertise.
What we`re asking them to do here, is determine whether or not the individual has the capability to harm themselves. Or harm somebody else. And that is a much more complicated question than just taking the self- report of the individual you`re interviewing. And seeing how they are in the moment.
Most people who have these types of issues who are planning to kill other people have an idea of how they`re going to carry this out. And they know that they have to keep it together in front of police to not have their plans be thwarted.
Just like you mentioned, Joey, with that mom who ended up driving her kids into the ocean. She was able to keep it together too, and she was actively psychotic at the time. So even psychotic individuals can keep it together for an interview.
Now should they have considered these other sources of information, like this video, like the parents` reports? Absolutely. They should have. They should have not just left it up to a young boy, really, to say, "Yes, I`m totally fine. I`m just having some social issues. Don`t listen to my parents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: And that`s my problem, Dr. Judy. So the shooter apparently began planning his, quote, "day of retribution" years in advance, writing about it in a manifesto. He blamed the cruelness of women for leading to his attack. Sparked by those words, cruelness of women, the #yesallwomen took off on Twitter, now with more than 1 million tweets and growing.
Straight out to our producer, Jackie Taurianen. Jackie, tell us about that hash tag and how it`s been taking out to the Twittersphere, as they say.
JACKIE TAURIANEN, HLN PRODUCER: Joey, you`re absolutely right.
This hash tag has taken over online. Like you said, 1 million times already, and honestly, it`s growing. You can`t keep refreshing Twitter fast enough in order to figure out who is talking about this and where it`s going.
The main theme behind this really is that, well, maybe not all men channel rejection into this killing spree. But yes, all women experience harassment and discrimination or worse.
And honestly, it`s become a rallying cry, sort of. It`s just take a look at -- excuse me, take a look at what some of our viewers are saying right now. Samantha says, "I shouldn`t be told to watch my drink when I`m out because of date rape drugs. Men should be told not to date rape."
A valid point. Even celebrities like Sophia Bush are weighing in. She says, "I shouldn`t have to hold my car keys in my hand like a weapon and check over my shoulder when I walk at night. #yesallwomen."
And lastly, we have Eugene here, and he says, "Don`t hate that #yesallwomen. Hate that it even has to exist."
And it`s true, Joey. Women really do live in fear. Honestly, I`ve had experiences that could go under this hash tag, and it`s scary. It`s scary that events like this, attacks like this only make people more frightened and more afraid. Are women safe? Is anyone really safe? It really raises a good question.
JACKSON: And therein lies the problem, Jackie. Thank you so much for that. I want to check in more with you as the show goes on, because you at home, the viewers, are expressing outrage and so many concerns and emotions about this horrific tragedy, which we`re going to discuss a lot more. Don`t go anywhere. Right after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was so emotional. Like, I can`t -- I can`t describe how emotional he was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaking and crying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shaking, adrenaline rush. His -- it was like water faucets. He was saying, like, I`m going to kill all of them. I`m going to then kill myself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ELLIOT RODGER, UC SANTA BARBARA SHOOTER: Tomorrow is the day of retribution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White male, 20 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just thought it was like an air soft gun or something.
RODGER: Against all of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Might be another -- another gunshot to the chest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a girl right here, and she was really, really struggling. You could tell she was just barely able to move her eyes.
RODGER: Such an injustice. I don`t know why you girls hate me so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOEY JACKSON, HLN HOST: So sick and twisted. So Rodger was obsessed with his own virginity, and thought that he was missing out on all of the fun and sex that he assumed everyone else was having but him. Listen to this from his YouTube video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: I`m 22 years old. And I`ve never had a girlfriend. I`m still a virgin. I`ve never had the pleasure of having sex with a girl, sleeping with a girl, kissing a girl. I`ve never even held a girl`s hand. Now, I don`t even have a young girl`s phone number in my cell phone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So sick. Rodger was not popular, and he repelled the beautiful women that he was desperate to have sex with. But instead of blaming himself, he blamed them for their lack of interest in him.
The shooter even uploaded some chilling videos on YouTube. In this one, he talks about how horrifying the plan to gun down women at the hottest sorority on campus. We learn and we warn you what we`re about to learn is very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB. And I will slaughter every single, spoiled, stuck up, blonde (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I see inside there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So hard to listen to. So should someone have been a lot more proactive here? Yes, the family called the cops a few weeks ago to report seeing some social media posts about suicide and murder. But when the officer said "Oh, everything is fine," should that not have been the point where someone else stepped in and said, "Oh, no, it`s not."
Now before getting to our lions` den, I want to talk to Tammy in Alabama. And Tammy, you`re on the phone. You`ve waited patiently. What say you as to this sick and twisted person who slaughtered these innocent, beautiful victims?
TAMMY, ALABAMA (via telephone): ok. I`ve got something to say about this cat -- what`s his name, Elliot Rodger? There is nothing wrong with this guy. Who gets in a BMW car, sits there, looks like he`s done got his hair fixed, all sitting there in front of the camera -- this guy is in love with himself. And he thinks everybody else should be too. There`s nothing wrong with this cat.
JACKSON: Well, you know what, something has to be wrong with him, Tammy. And I want to go to the "Lion`s Den" to address that issue, because a person who does something like this and behaves in this way, there has to be something amiss.
So Lisa Lockwood, I want to go back to you, you`re an investigator, you`re the author of "Undercover Angel". Take us through from an investigative perspective, this happens, it`s horrific. It shouldn`t happen. We have to prevent this moving forward. What do investigators look for as, you know, a preventive, something about a person when you see YouTube videos to maybe prevent this from happening again?
LISA LOCKWOOD, AUTHOR, "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": Yes. So the mother called and had a genuine concerned feeling about what her son was about to do -- homicidal thoughts, suicidal thoughts. The police officers at that point would go into that situation, very alarmed, wondering when they arrive, is there going to be a gunman in that house. Is that 22-year-old going to be armed?
So let`s go and make sure that the premises is safe. Let`s have other officers do a sweep, do a search. Those are the initial things that need to happen when you`re responding to a home of somebody who is suicidal.
So this makes zero sense to me that a young man with short-worded answers was able to talk to police officers out of the fact that he was about to do it. "Go ahead and call your mother and let her know that you`re ok" was the final response. Police are trained -- contrary to the belief of some of the people on this panel -- they are trained for mental illness. They are trained to follow up with something if somebody is suicidal.
JACKSON: Now, Diana Aizman, I go back to you. And not only, you know -- there is some training. I don`t know that they`re actually trained to assess this. But there is a civil commitment law, is there not, Diana --
DIANA AIZMAN, ATTORNEY: Right.
JACKSON: -- where if there`s probable cause to believe that someone is a danger to themselves or more importantly to others, they can be civilly committed against their will. Tell us about that and should that have been implicated here?
AIZMAN: Sure. It`s a 5150 hold. Essentially it`s a 72-hour hold where officers make a determination whether the person is essentially a danger to themselves or others, and then from there, a professional would get involved and make a further finding of whether that hold should be extended or not.
And I think that in this case, while they may receive some training, clearly it`s not enough training. Because situations like this keep happening where law enforcement makes some sort of contact with the mentally ill individual and either it`s too short or they`re not really looking for the right things. And they`re letting that person go or on the alternative, they`re being too aggressive and they`re kind of pushing somebody past their tipping point.
And I think that in this kind of situation, there needed to have been a lot more attention paid to this particular person. A long conversation should have been had with him. And then from there, they should have either involved some sort of professional or watched him. Tail him for a little while, see what he`s up to, where is he going, what is his behavior like? That should have been done at the very least in this case.
JACKSON: Absolutely. John from Delaware, you`re on the line -- you`re waiting patiently to give us your view as to what happened here and what your thoughts are. So John from Delaware, take it away, what do you have to say?
JOHN, DELAWARE (via telephone): Yes, Mr. Jackson. Yes. In light of all these mass shootings that have been happening, it`s become like a national crisis or common norm, and it`s unfortunate. And I believe that no one knows the potential gun buyer`s mind-set than a family or relative. And you know, our society today has an increase in drug, alcohol and mental illness problems, and if you combine that with guns, then you have a volatile situation waiting to happen.
And I think a possible solution to all of this is a -- more so a state or federal law to mandate a good character reference letter for the gun buyer to go to a gun show or gun store with a family member or relative as a backup to, you know, set forth that the -- the legitimacy of the person`s clarity of his mind so that he or she can lawfully possess that firearm once they complete the background check and the -- filling out the forms to purchase the gun.
JACKSON: John, I agree with you. It`s very complicated. It`s about gun laws, it`s about drugs, it`s about alcohol, mental health, it`s about a lot of things. And we`re fortunate to have an excellent panel tonight with you viewers at home weighing in, calling, tweeting, Facebooking. Tell us what your thoughts are -- more of this discussion, plenty more, with our panel when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close to 30 rounds of gunfire. And I looked outside, and I saw the BMW had crashed into parked cars on the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The car passed right by me and my friend, barely nicked her and then hit the guy right behind us, like literally (inaudible) from the street to the sidewalk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Code blue at Ivy Deli.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not enter Isla Vista. Do you copy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A newer model black BMW, possibly with a damaged front windshield.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: The shooter is constantly blaming women for the way he feels in his YouTube videos, and in the manifesto that CNN obtained from KEYT, he says, and I quote, "Future generations of men would be oblivious to these remaining women`s existence. And that is for the best. If a man grows up without knowing of the existence of women, there will be no desire for sex. Sexuality will completely cease to exist. Love will cease to exist. There will no longer be any imprint of such concepts in the human psyche. It is the only way to purify the world."
So out to the "Lion`s Den". This certainly sounds like, to me, he had a god complex, Dr. Judy. He`s out to cleanse the world -- really?
DR. JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, people who have these types of odd thoughts and behaviors and these delusions oftentimes see themselves as much more important than they really are. This is a very primary type of delusion that we see in individuals like this who are psychotic. And it`s called delusions of grandeur.
We see this in other types of mass killings as well where they actually believe that they`re doing the world a favor by killing people. And in this way, they have justified it to themselves. And they`re able to hold this together in their minds.
JACKSON: Now, J. Wyndal, I have to ask you, what`s all this with the hating women? I mean, does this boil down to something as simple as he was just nuts? Or was he taking his vendetta out on society against women? What`s your take on how this could even happen?
J. WYNDAL GORDON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As I alluded to earlier, he`s just a sexually repressed, sexually frustrated, horny kid who couldn`t get laid, and nobody really cared for him or thought to care for him, because he really didn`t have much of a personality. I think you can attribute some of that to the Asperger`s because some of the symptoms of Asperger`s deals with your personality and how you socialize with others. But the big part of it is that --
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Asperger`s --
GORDON: Yes.
MURPHY: Asperger`s -- or (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Come on.
JACKSON: Behave yourself, Wendy. This is a family show.
GORDON: Some would say he was the whole Asperger`s. Anyway, I just think this kid just couldn`t figure out how to fit in, how to deal with the changes that were going on in his body and how to socialize in a civil society and he wanted people to like him and they just didn`t, because he had no personality.
JACKSON: That simple. Go ahead, Wendy.
MURPHY: Can I jump in?
JACKSON: Please.
MURPHY: Here`s the thing that`s interesting to me. I work with women on campus all the time. I don`t know if your viewers know this but violence against women on campus, particularly sexual assault but physical violence as well is extremely prevalent. It`s the most common form of interpersonal violence on campus, by far, much more so than any other kind of violence combined.
In fact, a woman is more likely to be victimized by violence if she goes to college than if she does not even more so than if she joins the military. Go figure.
So one of the things I want to talk about for a second is, what is it about our university culture that this guy is, you know, in a nice school, learning deep thoughts about the way the world works, and developing these ideas that he should be having sex with those sorority girls, and if he doesn`t, that he should kill them. I`m saying, what`s wrong with our university culture that we are not promoting the idea of mutual respect, equality for women.
This is a civil rights issue for women. They are entitled to protection from violence under the Civil Rights Act in this country -- protection from violence on campus. Oh, and maybe that also gets to learn a little something or other once in a while. Dying on campus because you`re female? Are you kidding me -- in this country?
JACKSON: It`s absolutely nuts. Women should not be under attack. Women should not be the victims of such violence. No one should be the victim of violence from a deranged person like this or anyone else.
So much more to discuss about this issue, about the manifesto, about the YouTube, about his mental health as soon as we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact that he had been and was continuing to be seen by a variety of different health care professionals, but it`s very, very apparent that he was severely mentally disturbed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now it`s time for your "Pet of the Day", send us your pet pics to hln.com/Jane.
Bailey -- look at you enjoying that lovely little spring day. And Bella -- looks like you`re looking for a fella. And you have Jesse James here -- he`s all buckled in, ready to go for a nice little car ride. And lastly, we have Peanut -- look you`re so snuggly, all tucked in for the night and ready to go to bed.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a wound on her abdomen and like on her side and also one through her head. You could tell she wasn`t bleeding any more, so she was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So also picking up steam online today is actor Seth Rogen and director Judd Apatow`s response to a film critic who blamed the shooting on what he called -- and I quote -- "a white male Hollywood culture".
Back out to our producer, Jackie Taurianen. Jackie, what is this battle all about?
JACKIE TAURIANEN, HLN PRODUCER: Joey, thank you so much. You know what -- honestly, this is between Seth Rogen, Judd Apatow and a film critic for an unnamed publication, we`ll say. She basically said "How many men raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the schlubby, arrested adolescent always the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and then conclude, that`s not fair."
You know what? Seth and John were not taking that lying down. Seth responded back. "How dare you imply that meeting girls in movies caused a lunatic to go on a rampage? I find your article horribly insulting and radically misinformed." To that, Judd said, "She used this tragedy to promote herself with idiotic thoughts."
This is something that really -- it`s picking up. People are talking about it, and she just, it is -- excuse me, it is coming to a question of whether this -- sorry. I`m so sorry. You know what -- Joey I`m going to throw this back to you. It really is picking up steam online.
JACKSON: It so good, Jackie.
TAURIANEN: It is.
JACKSON: The reality is, everyone is entitled to their opinion, Jackie. I respect all opinions. But can we really blame this on that as opposed to calling it what it is? A person who is a lunatic, who is just out of control, who just killed people?
I mean are we really, Diana Aizman, going to blame Hollywood on this deranged lunatic`s murder of innocent people?
AIZMAN: Why does that keep happening? Why do they keep blaming Hollywood? Every time something bad happens? Let`s just point the finger at Hollywood. We`re not even blaming violent movies in this particular situation. They are blaming what -- romantic comedies or comedies that end with a guy getting a girl? Is that just the dumbest thing you`ve ever heard?
That is just a completely moronic statement --
MURPHY: No, no, no, no. You`re telling -- you`re telling me movies and propaganda don`t influence how we think as a culture? What about minstrel shows.
(CROSSTALK)
AIZMAN: No, that`s not what I`m telling you. What I`m telling you is these are shows and types of movies -- Judd Apatow type movies and movies involving Seth Rogen and not movies that are --
JACKSON: Hold on. One at a time --
AIZMAN: -- violent. I`m clarifying my thought, not saying that movies in general -- let me finish my thought.
JACKSON: Wendy we got you, two seconds -- let Diana finish. Go ahead.
AIZMAN: What I`m saying is that movies like Judd Apatow movies or Seth Rogen type movies are not the kind of movies that drive lunatics out there to kill people. These are totally unrelated things. And I think to make that connection just sounds stupid.
JACKSON: Wendy, quick word. Go ahead.
MURPHY: But what is also said is that a very heavy gun culture as promoted by Hollywood, a heavy white male, gun power whatever culture, absolutely influences how people think and feel about the way the world works and the value of women`s lives. Look, the minstrel shows were profoundly offensive to blacks in this country and weren`t exactly shoot them up, you know, shows. They were arguably pleasant and they were dangerous and damning and they were harmful to blacks and that`s why we still find them offensive to this day.
JACKSON: That may be true, Wendy. But the reality is, that people have to accept responsibility for their own behavior and I don`t know that we can blame Hollywood for some deranged lunatic going nuts like this. That`s the fact.
Great panel, great "Lion`s Den", great viewers.
Nancy Grace, she`s next.
END
