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Jane Velez-Mitchell
What Happened the Night Renisha McBride Died?
Aired July 23, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, stunning new clues uncovered in the mysterious death of 19-year-old Renisha McBride, gunned down on a
stranger`s front door in the suburbs of Detroit.
Just hours ago, explosive new information shocks the courtroom during opening statements, as the defense dramatically tries to paint this
homeowner as a terrified man who thought he was fending off a home invasion when he used his shotgun to put a bullet in the head of an unarmed teenager
who was seeking help after a car accident. So was this self-defense or was this murder? Tonight, we`ll walk you through the evidence and you decide.
Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was around 4:30 in the morning when Renisha McBride`s life ended here on this front porch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 911 call from a male who thinks he just shot someone on his porch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man had absolutely no justification to take a shotgun and blow her head off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was acting and reacting to escalating fear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His actions that night were unnecessary, unjustified and unreasonable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It all started when 19-year-old Renisha McBride crashed her car into a parked vehicle. It was after midnight; it was last
November. Witnesses called police, but by the time the paramedics arrived, Renisha had wandered away from the crash scene.
Several hours later, she appeared more than half a mile away, knocking on a stranger`s front door. Both sides acknowledge she was
intoxicated. The defense claims her knocking terrified the homeowner, 55- year-old airport maintenance worker Ted Wafer.
Wafer`s attorney claims he thought multiple people were trying to break in. And he couldn`t find his cell phone, so he got his shotgun
instead. Listen to the defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s go back at 4:30 in the morning in that back TV room, sound asleep -- boom, boom, boom, boom! He is awoken. And
as he`s still in that recliner processing that sound, boom, boom, boom, boom!
Front door with the shotgun in his hand, puts his right hand on the shotgun. And he`s ready because he`s scared, so he brings it up; and he`s
looking at. And it`s damaged, and the screen is coming in. It`s down seven inches out of the insert. And then what happened? Boom! Somebody
comes right in front of him. Less than two feet away, coming at him from the side. And he sees half a figure, and he shoots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutors say Ted Wafer is guilty of second-degree murder, arguing it was totally unnecessary and completely unreasonable to
shoot an unarmed 19-year-old woman in the face through his locked screen door when she knocked on that door`s home -- home door.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant in this case had other options. He could have called 911, but he didn`t. His actions that night were
unnecessary, unjustified and unreasonable. Because of what he did that night, a 19-year-old girl is dead on a porch in Dearborn Heights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Weigh in on this case, won`t you? Call me: 1-877- JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Or join the conversation on my Facebook page. Our Lion`s Den panel is fired up and ready to debate. But first, straight
out to Oralandar Brand-Williams, reporter for "The Detroit News." You were in court today for the start of this high-profile, racially-charged trial.
Take us inside the courtroom. What was it like in there?
ORALANDAR BRAND-WILLIAMS, REPORTER, "THE DETROIT NEWS" (via phone): There were a lot of emotional moments today, Ms. Velez-Mitchell. The first
witness on the stand was Renisha`s mom who called her her baby girl. There was another daughter and a grandson and a grandmother who Renisha lived
with. The mother got teary when they showed the smiling picture of her daughter.
There was also some emotional moments when Amber Jenkins, the friend of Renisha McBride, the best friend who talked about their last hours
together, playing a game -- a drink game where whoever the loser is has to take a shot of liquor. She admitted that they had had some vodka and had
some marijuana the night before.
At one point, Veronica McBride, Renisha McBride`s mom, had to leave the courtroom when they showed a graphic picture of a dead Renisha McBride.
Apparently, the body had fallen back feet-first after she`d been shot in the face.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: An excellent summary. And there is the mother right there. And there is the daughter, who is now deceased.
Earlier in the evening on the night she died, before she crashed her car, Renisha was playing a drinking game with her best friend. And Renisha
was losing, meaning she had to drink more than her friend. Listen to this testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much of the alcohol that you had purchased was consumed?
AMBER JENKINS, FRIEND OF RENISHA MCBRIDE: We drunk about half the bottle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you smoking anything?
JENKINS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What were you smoking?
JENKINS: Marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what form -- was it cigarettes?
JENKINS: A blunt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many blunts did you -- would you say was consumed?
JENKINS: Probably about three.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Renisha`s blood alcohol was over .22, which is about three times the legal driving limit.
The defense claims Renisha ferociously banged on Ted Wafer`s door, implying in her inebriation, she may have appeared threatening.
Straight out to the Lion`s Den. I want to go to Boyce Watkins, social commentator and founder of Your Black World. Prosecutors say shooting a
young woman who`s injured, dazed and asking for help is unacceptable, no matter whether she was drunk or not. How much will alcohol play in this
case?
BOYCE WATKINS, FOUNDER, YOUR BLACK WORLD: I think alcohol plays a huge role in this case. You know, I -- when I first read about it, I
thought about a time where -- I had a neighbor, actually, who was inebriated who tried to break into my house. And I thought about how I
felt that night and how afraid I was.
But one thing I can say is that I didn`t go for my gun and say that I`m going to shoot the first thing that I see. Now, this doesn`t mean that
anybody`s guilty or innocent. But I think that we have to consider the fact that this man did have other options besides pulling the gun out and
killing somebody.
But at the same time, though, we have to look for fairness; we have to look for equity. We have to look for justice. And I think anybody who
sort of assumes that one person`s innocent or guilty, particularly because of the color of their skin, they might be a little bit misguided.
But at the same time, you know, as a black person, we grow a little bit uncomfortable seeing so many black kids being killed. We also grow
uncomfortable with the idea that the justice system, which is historically biased, is going to make that determination. So you have a lot of distrust
here. But I think that, if we keep searching for the facts, maybe we`ll find some truth here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s my understanding, and correct me if I`m wrong, reporter who was in the courtroom, that race was not mentioned
whatsoever and that the defense tried to imply that race was irrelevant, that what this defendant saw was a blur on a darkened porch and that,
because she knocked on the front and the side door, purportedly, that he thought it was several people.
So Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney, is race an issue here?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or is this argument that he had no idea who was out or even if it was one person or more going to sway the jury?
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think race is an issue. I don`t think it benefits either side to play the race card, Jane. I don`t think it
benefits the prosecution. I don`t think it benefits the defense.
We find out today, too, that based on the defense arguments that he couldn`t even see who was out there. That it was dark. It was in the
middle of the night. He was dazed; he was half asleep. So either way, whether or not he could or couldn`t see her, I don`t
think race is an issue. And that`s not to say, Jane, that race -- the issue of race, in terms of our criminal justice system, shouldn`t be a
conversation that we need to have. We do need to have that.
But I don`t think there`s any evidence in this case that race played any role. I think both sides need to stick just to the facts of the case
and let those jurors decide based on the facts and evidence whether or not this was a justified killing. At the end of the day, that`s what it comes
down to.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think what was Renisha`s state of mind is also crucial that night after a night of drinking and smoking. Listen to
the testimony of her friend she was drinking with earlier in the evening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Renisha was getting mad at you.
JENKINS: She was being a sore loser. So if you want to say she was mad, yes. She was being a sore loser. And I wasn`t participating in the
game no more. So I left.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She actually followed you out of the house, right?
JENKINS: Yes, she took me to my car. She wasn`t following me to cause no problems.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had never quite seen her like this before in how long you`d known her, right?
JENKINS: We drank before. She`s always been a sore loser since I`ve met her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the investigator asked you why you left Renisha, can you read the answer that you gave him?
JENKINS: I said, she was mad. That`s why I left. I didn`t want it to escalate into something else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense is trying to paint Renisha as this angry person.
Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, is this a flat-out "blame the victim" defense strategy, as we have seen so many times in this case? I mean,
really honing in on, she`s smoking marijuana, she`s drinking, she was a sore loser, we`re going to get to that in a second.
WENDY MURPHY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. It`s an ugly, ugly tactic that we see disproportionately in our legal system against women of
all colors.
And the thing I dislike the most is that there really is no legal relationship between whatever she had been doing, whether she was a good
loser or a bad loser, drunk or sober. The question, did he have a right to shoot her in the face when she wasn`t threatening him in any way except
knocking has nothing to do with the facts that we keep hearing about her character.
And my concern is not only is that unfair, unjust, sexist, racist, disgusting and so on, it could well undermine the defense strategy.
Because you`re going to make the jury angry as they struggle to think, why do we care that she was a bad loser?
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: I totally disagree, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think it absolutely matters. I love you, Wendy. But you all know that in a self-defense case, you have to show that the victim
fear -- that the defendant feared the victim. So of course, to a certain extent, you have to put the victim on trial. You can`t portray her as this
-- like an angel that wouldn`t harm anybody...
MURPHY: At the moment of the shooting. At the moment of the shooting...
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time, ladies. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. I want to go to Dr. Robi Ludwig for a second. Let me go to Dr.
Robi Ludwig.
On Facebook, Shamiriah (ph) says, "Yes, a robber is going to be banging and making lots of noise. Not." That`s a very good point. If
you`re going to be doing a home invasion, you`re not going to -- actually, I don`t know that there were words spoken, so that`s something we`ll get
to. But let`s just do the knocking. Right? Do a lot of home invaders knock?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: We don`t know what the knocking sounded like.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But by the other -- on the other side, if somebody is inebriated and they`re going from door to door and banging, it may sound,
not like somebody knocking, but somebody making an attempt to break in. Those are two sides of the story, Dr. Robi.
LUDWIG: Absolutely. And I think we do need to look at the state the victim was in, just to get a sense of what potentially happened that night.
If she was not drinking, then we can see the knocking in a slightly different way. Since she was inebriated, I don`t think that means she
deserved to be killed. But maybe her judgment was off in the way that she was going about making contact with this house; seemed intimidating in some
way.
And I certainly can see how somebody who was woken up at a certain time of night by somebody that he didn`t know could be intimidated by that
and, if you have a gun in the house, anything can happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Melissa says on Facebook, "So why did he even open the door if he was so scared?"
Let`s go quickly to Marvin, Oklahoma. What do you have to say? Marvin, Oklahoma.
CALLER: Well, I think that -- I think that he should have asked questions first instead of shooting first and asking questions later. You
just can`t go ahead and shoot somebody without asking questions. You should open up the door and say, "Hey, what do you want?" You know,
instead of just going ahead and shooting the lady.
I think -- I disagree that race isn`t a factor, because he probably stereotyped this woman because she was black. That`s probably why she shot
her -- why he shot her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Oralandar Brand-Williams, reporter for "The Detroit News," my understanding is that there were no words spoken. That
was -- correct me if I`m wrong.
BRAND-WILLIAMS: That`s correct. I have not heard of any words spoken yet. We don`t know if Mr. Wafer is going to take the stand yet. We asked
his defense attorney, Cheryl Carpenter, if he is. And she has not commented yet if he will.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, should he take the stand in his own defense and try to sell the idea that he was terrified that night?
Later, a story so many people are talking about on social media. It`s horrific. It`s gut-wrenching. Cops say this mom admitted that she
brutally murdered her 4-year-old daughter. Was she actually jealous of her own child?
But we`re just getting started on this Renisha McBride case. And hit us up on Facebook or call us. I want to hear from you. Should this
defendant take the stand?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was around 4:30 in the morning when Renisha McBride`s life ended here on this front porch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 911 call from a male who thinks he just shot someone on his porch.
TED WAFER, DEFENDANT: I just shot somebody on my front porch with a shotgun, banging on my door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that night, for those approximately two to three minutes, he was asking and re-asking to escalating fear.
DANIELLE HAGAMAN-CLARK, ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR: Because of what he did that night, a 19-year-old girl is dead on a porch in Dearborn Heights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Before this case went to trial, lots of people considered it a slam dunk for prosecutors, saying this guy Wafer is going
down, especially after hearing his 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAFER: I just shot somebody on my front porch with a shotgun banging on my door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But now with all the details coming in, this case might not be as clear-cut.
The defense, very aggressively claims Wafer couldn`t find his cell phone to call 911 that night when the knocking first started. They also
say he turned off the lights in the house, because he was hoping whoever was knocking would just go away.
And most shockingly, we found out today that Wafer allegedly heard knocking at both the front door and the side door. And then he claims
that`s why he thought there was more than one person breaking into his house.
Let`s go to the Lion`s Den. And we have a very special guest, Ron Scott, the spokesperson for the McBride family. The defense is very
dramatic, and they`re very aggressive in opening statements and in their grilling of the witnesses. I mean, this is the prosecution`s case. This
should look right now like a slam dunk for the prosecution. But the defense is being very aggressive. What do you make of it, Ron Scott?
RON SCOTT, SPOKESPERSON FOR MCBRIDE FAMILY (via phone): Well, the defense counsel is doing exactly what she`s hired to do. Defense counsels
have to act as -- in an aggressive and assertive manner. And that`s what she did. So I don`t make much of it at this particular point in the trial.
I think she`s trying to establish an alternative scenario which may or may not have validity.
For instance, there`s no question about the toxicology report in relation to Renisha McBride. But what about the toxicology report that was
taken of Timothy Wafer? We don`t know if he had anything to drink. We don`t know anything about his background. We don`t know what aggravated
(ph) his circumstances. And so those things have not come up.
Furthermore, the defense counsel amplified what she said was the sound of knocking based on her assessment of how loud it was. But we don`t know
that. We don`t have any audio. We don`t have any independent evidence to corroborate that. That is just her assessment in opening arguments, which
she has the right to do. But I think as the trial unfolds, you`ll find furthermore (ph).
And I agree with Wendy. Victimizing women, African-American women and so forth, we have said that this has been human profiling, not just
African-American profiling. Human profiling.
He had a perspective about somebody coming to the door and actually shot and asked questions later -- asked no questions, really. So
essentially just victimizing the victim I think is -- while it is fair game, it`s at the same time questionable in terms of how it`s done.
And furthermore, I think your medical personnel will emphasize that we don`t know what happened. In fact, marijuana is a depressant. We don`t
know whether it was depressant or a stimulant. We don`t know how people respond. And we certainly don`t know how Renisha or anybody else might
respond.
So in effect, that`s the prosecution`s story. I mean, and there`s a defense story. And we will find out, in terms of the evidentiary basis.
So I wouldn`t put much to that. I think it was very dramatically done. I think it was done for -- to accelerate the case, because they don`t have
that much of a case based on the evidence. So they have to present a story that would (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, today was also the first time reporters in court saw the jury. And that jury consists of seven men and seven women,
four of whom are African-American, two men and two women.
Now, two of those jurors are alternates. There was a lot of debate before this trial started that this might have been a racially-charged
shooting.
So I want to go back to Ron Scott for a second. Are you concerned that, with only four African-Americans, two of whom may end up being
alternates, that this case could have been won by the defense on jury selection?
SCOTT: Well, I`m not as concerned about it as I might be. I think the judge did a fair job in terms of doing it. In fact, I`m glad you
mentioned that, because it did come up at one particular point that defense counsel was essentially -- the only pre-emptory challenges and other
challenges for cause that were rendered were against African-Americans.
And the judge said very clearly, "It`s going to be race-neutral."
And so I think we need to know about this defense counsel and what their scenario was that they didn`t challenge any people of any other
ethnicity, specifically white, jurors for any particular reason. And so therefore, I don`t think it`s going to be necessarily racially charged.
I`m sure the jury will take into evidence a fair situation, not about a black girl but about a young 19-year-old girl who could be anybody`s child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Ron Scott, thank you so much for weighing in. And on the other side, we`re going to debate whether this
case could have been won or lost during jury selection and whether the jury is going to be fair. Stay right there. And we`ll be back. And we`re also
going to read a lot of your Facebook calls [SIC] and statements. They are exploding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have evidence the screen frame was so violently banged that it broke. So if you`re at 4:30 in the morning by
yourself hearing that at the front door, what do you think is going on in your mind? Wondering what that is?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As her mother, have you had a chance to see her intoxicated?
VERONICA MCBRIDE, RENISHA`S MOTHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s her demeanor like?
MCBRIDE: Go to sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She goes to sleep?
MCBRIDE: Up under me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?
MCBRIDE: Up under me. She gets in the bed with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. If Renisha was drunk, she would come to bed and sleep with you?
MCBRIDE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So that is the dead woman`s mother, taking the stand today as the trial got off to a very dramatic start. She broke down in
tears and admitted her daughter, when she was drinking, would crawl into bed with her when she had too much alcohol.
So that cuts both ways. On the one hand, you have the emotion of the mother and so that evokes sympathy. On the other hand, it would seem to
imply that drinking was an issue, possibly, with her daughter. And again, we don`t know how that alcohol issue is going to play out, but I think it`s
very interesting that Ron Scott, the spokesperson for McBride`s family, says they didn`t test the guy, the guy who shot her, to see whether he was
drunk or not.
You know, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, should they have done that?
MURPHY: Yes. I mean, his state of mind is clearly far more important and, at this point, it`s a mystery, and that`s why he looks like such a
jerk and a freak. "Oh, somebody knocks on my door, so I blew their face off." What kind of story is that? It makes no sense.
And here`s something about a 19-year-old girl who`s drunk. She was a point two-something. What that means and why the defense is going to have
a tough time is she was probably going around like "Ehhhh!" You know, come on. Point two-two might be in a coma.
And the thing is, they`re really trying to muddy the water about this girl`s character to make her life seem less valuable, because they`re doing
the dog-and-pony show: "Oh, she`s dead, but she`s not all that important. So it`s OK. Give him manslaughter. Give him manslaughter." This is a
disgusting defense strategy.
There is no evidence at this point, no evidence at this point, that he had any reason to shoot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, Jane, I think it`s absolutely relevant. It`s not a dog-and-pony show. If the defense wants to prove that he feared this
woman, they have to show that her alcohol blood level was three times the legal limit. That shows that she did possibly have a propensity for
violence.
MURPHY: What?
SEDAGHATFAR: And this isn`t to see that this isn`t a tragedy. A woman lost her life. We know that. The issue for those jurors is whether
or not this killing was justified. You heard of the Castle Doctrine. You`ve prosecuted these cases, Wendy. The...
MURPHY: She was drunk, so she has a propensity for violence? She has a propensity for falling over, into a coma.
SEDAGHATFAR: Can I finish?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time, please. I want to bring in Boyce Watkins, social commentator. The defense is saying they don`t have to
prove a thing, that they don`t have to lay out any evidence whatsoever. It`s -- the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
that Ted Wafer was unjustified and did not act in self-defense. It`s hard to prove a negative. And then you add on the Castle Doctrine, which
essentially says a man`s home is his castle and he has no legal duty to retreat.
Do you think that this case is a lot more complicated than it seemed at first glance, Boyce?
WATKINS: Well, it absolutely is. Because I mean, you have to accept the idea that, at 4 a.m. in the morning or whatever time it was, he wasn`t
up looking to kill somebody. I mean, that`s just a fact; we have to accept that.
But then I think the critical question for me is did he have to kill someone? And if he made a misjudgment, how should he be punished? Should
he be punished the same as somebody who went out and looked to murder somebody? I don`t think so. But should he be treated as somebody who was
a completely innocent victim, who did something that he absolutely had to do? No, he can`t be, because you can`t prove that she was threatening his
life or trying to hurt him.
What I really see here is the possibility that he made a huge judgment error. I grew up in the house with a cop who had guns in the house. And
if someone tried to break into the house, my dad would pull out the gun. But you know, so I can understand where he was coming from, but did he have
to shoot her? No, he did not. We know that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: As critics have said, he could have closed the door, locked it and called 911. But his defense attorney says that he couldn`t
find his cell phone that night during the key moments and that he has no hard line phone.
More on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERYL CARPENTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At this moment because of the side and the front, he thinks it`s not one person -- it`s two or more
people at his house. So he goes back to the kitchen, you`ll see this. So he goes back to the kitchen. You`ll see that he always has to go back to
the kitchen -- what to do.
So he`s in the kitchen and he`s over there. And then what happens? Bang, bang, bang, bang -- side door. And he`s standing there. Oh, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is the very dramatic, very aggressive defense attorney for 55-year-old Ted Wafer. He is an airport maintenance worker
who is on trial for second-degree murder. Today was opening statements and some key witnesses. This trial highly-watched, high profile, racially
charged.
This Ted Wafer shot 19-year-old Renisha McBride in the face when she, after crashing her car after a night of drinking and smoking pot, ends up
knocking on his door for help. She knocks on his front door and his side door, purportedly, and he opens his door and through the screen door shoots
her in the face and kills her.
He says it was self-defense. Prosecutors said it was unreasonable, unjustifiable and he needs to go to prison.
So let`s go to the phone lines. Cindy, Georgia, you`re very patient -- Cindy, Georgia. What do you have to say?
CINDY, GEORGIA (via telephone): Hi, Jane. Thank you so much for taking my call. I appreciate it.
First of all, my sympathies go out to Renisha`s family. My sympathy also goes out to this gentleman that shot her, you know. She`s not the
innocent little child that she`s being portrayed as. She was drinking underage. She was using drugs. Got in her car and wrecked it. She ran
from the police. She did many things illegal.
Nobody was there -- nobody on your panel, not me, not anybody was there but that man and her. At 4:30 in the morning, even a little knock
can sound horrendous. And unfortunately too many of us this day and age sleep with a gun near our bed. I`m a female. I`m a senior. And I would
shoot first and ask questions later.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Cindy, Georgia thank you for your comments. And I know some members of our panel vehemently disagree with you. But
could we be getting a look at some of the jurors might be thinking, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, especially because reports indicate that this
area had been in a crime wave. There had been a lot of shots fired, police responding to these shots fired in the neighborhood.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s exactly what I was going to point out. And I think the caller makes a great point. What was the crime
like in that area? What was going on where this man might have been frightened or wired to be paranoid about what was going on in the
neighborhood that evening or recently? That all forms a backdrop to his judgment on that evening; I think this is a tragic situation all the way
around.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Boyce Watkins, this you could also describe as an average teenager in the sense that teenagers do drink, they do sometimes
smoke pot and they do sometimes get into car wrecks. Is the penalty for that death?
WATKINS: No, it shouldn`t be the death penalty. And believe I`ve taught on college campuses for 20 years. I`m consistently warning young
people that when you drink too much and use drugs like this, bad things can happen. But it doesn`t mean those bad things should happen.
I don`t think she deserved to die, we know that. But at the same time, I think that we have to lay out all the facts. We have to be honest
and we have to really look at this as if these two people were the same race, even the same gender so that we don`t over-politicize something that
really needs to lean on our common sense in terms of trying to understand what happened.
At the end of the day, justice has to be served and I think that`s what we want to aim for. We can`t sort of fight this as a black person or
as a woman. We have to fight this as human beings.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, very interesting points. I just want to end with some Facebook comments. Vicki, "Who knows how she was knocking on his
door? If she had been home and not drunk or high both of which are against the law, maybe she would be alive. This man should go free."
But Barb says, "This has happened to me, no need to shoot someone through a locked door. He should have called 911."
So we`ll see how it plays out. The trial is just getting started. We`re going to stay on top of this for you right here on this show.
Next, investigators say a mom admits she did the absolutely unthinkable -- killed her four-year-old daughter and then stuffed the
child`s body into a garbage bag. This woman, this mother, cops say walked into police headquarters and just said, "Yes, I did this." Are you kidding
me?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child`s father says the night before he told Parsons he wanted a divorce and just weeks before that he`d gotten an
inkling of what was to come.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told me if I leave her that she would kill the baby. I never for a minute thought she`d actually do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young girl`s life is over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She took my kid. Who would kill their baby? Who would kill their baby?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shoes and toys sit in a room never to be used again.
RANDY DYESS, FAMILY FRIEND: Something told me to open the trunk and there she was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child`s mother, Stacie Parsons, was arrested and booked into the Henderson County jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luckily the police got her before I did -- trust me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told police she had killed Victoria at one location before bringing the body back to the family home.
DYESS: -- in a plastic bag, you know, with dirt. I saw her little leg hanging out of that bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told me if I leave her that she would kill the baby. I never for a minute thought she would actually do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, unlocking the mystery of a motive as a young mom allegedly confesses to the unthinkable, savagely beating her innocent
four-year-old daughter to death. The girl`s battered body was found stuffed inside a garbage bag in the trunk of her mom`s car. The little
girl`s devastated family is searching for answers tonight.
25-year-old Stacie Parsons -- look at that child, so beautiful -- well her mom, Stacie Parsons was supposed to take little Victoria to sign up for
preschool Monday morning. They left the family`s home together but when Stacie returned in her car, Victoria was nowhere to be seen. Then her mom
made this chilling comment, "I wouldn`t be in that car if I were you."
Listen to a family friend who was at the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DYESS: Something told me to open the trunk and there she was in a plastic bag, you know, with dirt. I saw her little leg hanging out of that
bag. What kind of evil does that? I hope she gets the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Police say Stacie walked right into the local sheriff`s office just before 9:00 a.m. Monday and announced she`d killed
her daughter, who is in the trunk of this car. The child`s body was discovered by her father. The child wrapped in a garbage bag suffering
severe trauma to her head and chest, foaming at the mouth.
Tonight, we`re all wondering the same thing. How on earth could a mom do that to her own flesh and blood? Reports are Stacie`s common-law
husband, the little girl`s dad, threatened to leave her the night before the killing. Is this a case of revenge for being dumped? Did the mother`s
own traumatic childhood trigger something?
Straight out to senior producer for our show, Amy Doyle, you just got off the phone with the dead child`s paternal grandfather. What did he tell
you?
AMY DOYLE, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: Well, initially Jane, our first reaction -- first question is the history between this mother and daughter.
So I asked, you know, when the baby was born, what was the initial reaction of a mother who had just had a baby? He said shockingly that she refused
to hold the baby. She wanted a boy, refused to hold the baby which, I`m a mother, was shocking to me. That`s just -- that`s outrageous.
He then went on to tell me that she had a history of being very verbally abusive to the girl. Now, CPS was never called. There`s no
history of physical domestic violence in that house. However he said she was flat-out mean to that little girl from day one.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. Thank you for that report, Amy Doyle, senior producer.
There`s no history of CPS. She has no criminal history. But there are various reports claiming that she was verbally abusive to this child.
Both Victoria`s dad and a family friend say the mom had threatened to kill this little girl just days before the actual murder. The friend quoted her
as saying, quote, "I`d rather kill Victoria and spend the rest of my life in prison than put up with you," end quote, apparently making that threat
to her husband.
Here`s what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY WYATT JR., VICTIM`S FATHER: She took my kid, told me if I leave her that she would kill the baby. I never for a minute thought she`d
actually do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, we`re hearing very disturbing things. She didn`t want to hold the child when she was
born. She wanted a boy. She was clearly rattled one way or another about her husband, her common-law husband, threatening to leave. Is this a case
of, "Oh, yes, you think you`re going to do this to me? Watch what happens."
LUDWIG: Yes, I mean it could have been that this mother had the child as a way to hold onto her husband, almost as a manipulation, if you will.
And when the husband decided to leave her, this was an excellent way to punish the child. It sounds like she wasn`t able to psychologically attach
to this child, resented this child and perhaps had the child for the wrong reasons entirely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, when we`re talking about possible motives for murder -- let`s say even though she -- cops say she walked into the police
station and confessed she has not faced trial yet and she still deserves her day in court.
Her husband says the night before Victoria was killed, he had threatened to leave. And he also told a reporter, I think she`s been
jealous of this little girl since the day she was born.
Now, that blows my mind. Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney, a mother jealous of her own child, a four-year-old, no less?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: I can`t wrap my head around that, Jane. How a mother can kill her own child and to think that the motive may be that she
was jealous of her own child? That is sick. This woman is sick.
I mean the police don`t know for sure what the motive is here. And it`s interesting because you have other people that knew her that said she
was a wonderful, loving mother, that she did anything for her child, she was caring. She would never harm her. But then you do have other people
that are saying she was a horrible mom, possibly abusive.
But I tend to agree with your other guest that I think this could have been a revenge killing. That she hurt her child as a way to get back at
her husband who threatened to divorce her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy.
SEDAGHATFAR: And I`ve seen many, many cases like this where spouses do take out their anger on the children.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No. No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor.
MURPHY: Well, it`s true that it could be a lot of different things. But on the one hand, what we`ve heard is that she was saying, I want to
dump you -- I`d rather go to jail than be with you. So she`s certainly not the same kind of person who was saying, "Don`t leave me or I`ll kill the
child." That does not make sense to me at all in this story.
But just because she`s a mother doesn`t mean she doesn`t have the potential to kill. Where are we getting this weird, very sexist idea?
When one of my girlfriends as a child was abused, her psychiatrist said and it stuck with me many years ago, just because she gave birth to you doesn`t
mean she likes you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s hope that women who statistically, rarely commit crimes compared to the number of crimes men commit, that this is a
wild aberration.
But on the other side of the break, we have still more clues as we delve deeply into this very disturbed mother`s past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luckily, the police got her before I did, trust me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young girl`s life is over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who would kill their baby? Who would kill their baby?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child`s mother, Stacie Parsons, was arrested and booked into the Henderson County jail when she told police she had
killed Victoria at one location before bringing the body back to the family home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WYATT: Oh, God, it was awful. Foam out her mouth, her head was bashed in, my baby is dead. She killed my baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is the father of the dead child, little Victoria Wyatt. Police say her own mother killed this precious child and then put
the child in the trunk with some garbage bags wrapped around the child`s dead body then drove it back to their home where the father, who you just
heard from, discovered the child when he opened that trunk.
Back out to Amy Doyle, our senior producer, what have you learned?
DOYLE: Well, Jane, I spoke at length today with the paternal grandfather. They call her Tory, Tory is her nickname. He was describing
to me exactly the condition that Gary the father found the body.
Initially he thought that there was an accident. She was soaking wet. There was water. They tried to perform CPR and water was coming out of her
mouth. That has not been released to the public yet. But we did find out this information from the grandfather today.
They then realized that there was foam, water, definite trauma, impact to the skull and chest as well as her clothing soaked in water.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, what does that signify?
MURPHY: Well, that`s interesting. I didn`t know that until Amy just said it. Look, obviously there was more to the story than just an angry
mother who knocked her kid across the head. Because we know there were head injuries and chest injuries. It suggests the possibility of drowning,
perhaps in a remote location, something pretty damn gruesome.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Robi Ludwig, quickly, this mother was taken from her own biological mother at the age of seven and was adopted by apparently
a very nice warm-hearted woman. But this woman says that this woman, her adopted daughter, was very traumatized by her early childhood.
LUDWIG: Listen, I mean we have to consider who this mother was biologically connected to. Was this mother re-enacting what she
experienced? That`s a very big possibility here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Criminal defense attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar, could she plead insanity?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think that`s going to be a very strong likelihood, Jane. The first thing her lawyers are going to do is send her to get a
psychological evaluation, get her tested and then take it from there. But I think it`s very likely in this case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know there are so many comments coming in on Facebook. One thing I`d like to read Heather "Any comments about killing a
child should be taken seriously. Why just ignore it? That poor baby." Three days before cops say she slaughtered this child she said words to the
effect of, oh, I could kill her". That has to be taken seriously.
Those words were a foreshadowing, cops say, of what was to come. Anytime you hear something like that, immediately call police.
Nancy Grace is next.
END
