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Jane Velez-Mitchell

Is Officer Wilson Telling the Truth?; National Guard Called in to Ferguson

Aired August 18, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... doesn`t matter to me how he became a monster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the DNA is what solved this crime. If this crime had happened 30 years ago, Robert Ward Frazier would have gotten away with

it.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news tonight, you are looking at live aerial pictures of Ferguson, Missouri. Protests going on right now.

Marches, and the National Guard is being brought in. Some are wondering what is going to happen tonight when the sun sets? Will it be peaceful?

Will it be violent? Last night, we`re going to show you a video of what went on last night. Extreme chaos erupted in the most violent night yet as

confrontations between angry protestors and Missouri police really spiraled out of control. This time with bloodshed.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable video and sounds. Cops say at least two citizens were shot and injured by an unidentified suspect. Now some in the

crowds allegedly tossed Molotov cocktails at police, who in turn unleashed firebombs and tear gas and rubber bullets. We`re going to talk to a

reporter who was hit by a rubber bullet fired by police.

Meantime, a newly-released independent autopsy conducted for the family of Michael Brown shows unarmed African-American teenager was shot at least six

times, including twice in the head by Officer Darren Wilson.

Now an explosive brand-new development just in minutes ago. Tonight a woman claiming to be Officer Darren Wilson`s very good friend tells his

side of the story to a local radio station, claiming the cop fired the deadly shots after Michael Brown bum rushed him. Those are her words.

Listen to what she has to say from KFTK Radio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via phone): So he throws it in reverse back to them, tries to get out of his car. He slammed his door shut violently. I think

he said Michael did. And then he opened the car again, you know, tried to get out. He stands up and Michael just bum rushes, just shoves him back in

the car, punches him in the face.

And then, of course, Darren grabs for his gun, and Michael grabs the gun. At one point he`s got the gun totally turned against his hip. And Darren

shoves it away, and the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off with his friend. It gets to be 35 feet away. And you know, Darren`s first protocol is to pursue. So he stands up and

yells, "Freeze." Michael and his friend turn around, and Michael starts pounding him. "What are you going to do about it? You`re not going to

shoot me."

And then he said all of a sudden he just started to bum rush him. He just started coming at him full speed. And so he just started shooting, and he

just kept coming.

So he really thinks he was on something. I mean, it was unbelievable. And then so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then

he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now a source with detailed knowledge says, quote, "This account is accurate." At least, it matches what Officer Wilson told

investigators.

But the independent autopsy shows no sign of a struggle. Several witnesses say Brown was riddled with bullets while surrendering with his hands in the

air. So what really happened? All right. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Join the conversation by going to my Jane Velez-Mitchell

Facebook page. You`re talking to me on Twitter.

We`re going to go out to Ferguson where there`s a lot going on, as you just saw in those live pictures and those live images in just a moment.

But first to our Lion`s Den debate panel. They are fired up. They are ready to debate.

I want to start with J. Wyndal Gordon, attorney. You just heard that explosive new account from a friend of the police officer. She called a

radio station. All right. Your reaction to her story, which clearly paints Michael Brown to be the aggressor?

J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: That`s completely absurd.

First of all, isn`t his gun supposed to be on safety when it`s holstered? And how is he able to reach across him and grab this so-called weapon? How

would he know -- how would he know what side it`s on.

But you know, I don`t expect Ferguson -- I`ve never seen a police officer say, "Yes, it`s my fault. I shot him, because I just wanted to kill him."

I`ve never heard that happen, but I`ve seen and -- seen and heard people kill people, police officers kill young men all the time. None of them

have ever said mea culpa, so I don`t expect Ferguson to lay down. But at the same time, that story is completely ridiculous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Thompson, attorney and radio host, you agree?

ADAM THOMPSON, ATTORNEY/RADIO HOST: Listen, until we get all the facts in , you have to keep an open mind. We`ve seen so many of these high-profile

cases where the facts turn at the spin of the dime, and then it`s a completely different version.

We could fingerprint the car to see if there`s any of Michael Brown`s prints on the car. We could fingerprint the officer`s gun and see if his

prints were on the gun. Easy to do. That`s what general forensics is all about.

So once we get that information in, you can start piecing it together with the different video and audio statements that we hear and we collect. Then

you can make a proper decision. Too early to say, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What I don`t understand, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, is why did we wait until all of this to hear the officer`s side of the

story, told not in an official police document, but from a woman named Josie, who doesn`t have a last name, who calls a local radio station and

basically completely exonerates, according to her version of events, what the officer did. I mean, is that the way we`re supposed to get this

information?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I don`t think there`s a good way to give the officer`s story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there is. You give a statement.

MURPHY: Let me tell you why.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second.

MURPHY: It doesn`t matter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You get a statement from the officer at the very initial time. All of this comes in...

MURPHY: No. No, Jane! Because you don`t have enough information, and you don`t want to fuel the flames. You want to let things resolve peacefully.

I don`t think you necessarily rush to put it out there and had they done so, they would have been criticized for putting it out there too quickly.

This time, you know, "Oh, it wasn`t fast enough, and it`s from a girl named Josie." I don`t believe this woman, because I don`t know her to have

enough baseline information. I don`t -- I don`t give that a lot of credibility. But here`s what I do know. It is not true.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: CNN...

MURPHY: It is not true.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: CNN`s investigative source says this is the officer`s story. So whether...

MURPHY: OK.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whether it`s true or not, she is telling the officer`s side of the story. And I just want to jump to...

MURPHY: But Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this the way we`re supposed to get the officer`s side of the story, from a woman named Josie who is calling a local radio station

when National Guard troops are being deployed to the street?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Jane, absolutely not. This is not the way we should be hearing what this officer`s version of events are. And this is

what individuals, protesters and residents of Ferguson feared all along, is that the police would take whatever time necessary to concoct a story.

Now that we`ve gotten these forensic reports, the medical examiner`s report from Michael Brown`s family, how timely or how uncanny is it that this

statement comes out from Josie, allegedly telling the statement of this officer.

It seems mighty suspicious to me that we`re hearing about this at the same time that we heard about the autopsy report confirming that Michael Brown

perhaps had his hands up, surrendering when he was actually shot. I think this is the kind of mistrust that this community is responding to...

MURPHY: But we know that`s not true.

MARTIN: The kind of mistrust...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. Go ahead, Wendy.

MURPHY: What I`m saying is we learned today that neither side is actually doing a good job telling the truth. We`ve been lead to believe that this

poor boy was killed when he was going like this. You look at the autopsy, assuming...

GORDON: The autopsy confirms that.

MURPHY: ... it`s correct, it could not have happened this way.

GORDON: It absolutely could happen that way. But you know what?

MURPHY: It`s not true.

GORDON: You know what Josie said? Josie said the last shot was to the forehead. How did he get shot on the top of his head?

MURPHY: What about the arms? Talk about the arms.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second, guys.

MURPHY: This is not how the bullets went in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s talk about the autopsy. I want to give our viewers the info on the autopsy, and then we`ll continue the debate. OK. So we

had at least six gunshot wounds on Michael Brown. What do they indicate?

Two shots were to the head. You can see right there. In fact, if you drop the banner, you can see all of the shots. There they are. Four to the

arm. Two to the head. One in an eye socket. One at the top of the forehead.

Now listen to what one of the independent forensic experts brought in by Michael Brown`s family said about just one of those shots to Michael

Brown`s arm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could that wound occur from him walking away and then he turns around? It`s consistent with that. But it also could have

occurred when he was putting his hands up. It could have happened if he put his arms across in a defensive manner. We don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We don`t know. What about the so-called kill shot, the one to the top of Michael Brown`s head? Considering Brown was 6`4", now

there`s various possibilities. Could the bullet have struck him while he was charging the officer, perhaps while he was surrendering, leaning his

head down to surrender? Or perhaps falling to the ground?

Lion`s Den, can we say for sure what any of this shows? And I`ll throw it to Zerlina Maxwell, contributor to PolicyMike.com (ph).

ZERLINA MAXWELL, CONTRIBUTOR, POLICYMIKE.COM (ph): Well, I just think that the final shot to the top of the head is certainly one that I`m very

concerned about. Because when we`re talking about an unarmed person, I don`t even understand why you`re even at six shots. Why are you at five

shots? Why are you at four shots?

It seems to me that the questions that still remain to be answered have to do with why we are using such lethal force with unarmed people? And yes,

we don`t have all the facts. But the facts that we do know that won`t change are that Michael Brown is dead and that he was unarmed. And the

person that didn`t -- did it has not been held accountable. And that`s why people are in the streets.

So I think that if transparency were increased by the police departments and the officer, Darren Wilson, was arrested, we would see a lot of peace

come to Ferguson. We need accountability here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, here`s...

MURPHY: Come on.

THOMPSON: You can`t rush in and arrest a police officer before an investigation is completed.

MARTIN: There`s enough for an arrest. There`s enough for an arrest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.

MAXWELL: I`m not saying conviction. I`m saying simply an arrest. Bring him in for questioning.

THOMPSON: You can`t -- you can`t let public outcry dictate how an investigation moves forward.

MAXWELL: Four eyewitnesses. Four eyewitnesses.

THOMPSON: That`s unfair. That`s unfair.

GORDON: Then when should a police officer be arrested?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, guys. I get in trouble when you all talk at once. They call me in and say, "Why did you lose control of your panel?" OK, so

I want to hear everybody`s point, but just let the other person finish the sentence.

Now, here`s the thing, Dr. Judy Ho. You`re the psychologist. Here`s my point. Now everybody has taken sides. Everybody has formed an opinion.

No matter what they hear -- and you can see from the video that we`ve been showing you that tensions are obviously through the roof. Whether it`s

here, on Facebook or in the street. People have formed opinions.

Now that this information is coming out so late in the game, in dribs and drabs. And by the way, this is a live image. Live video, an aerial shot

of protests going on right now. And there`s a heavy police presence here. And this is in Ferguson, Missouri, happening right now. So people are

wondering what is going to happen tonight?

But now that the information is coming out in dribs and drabs, there`s been an explosion of emotion. People have formed opinions. Isn`t it

psychologically true that people will hear whatever? The comment from this woman, the autopsy, and they`ll fit it into their preexisting opinions?

Because they`ve had the time to form an opinion.

DR. JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: You`re absolutely right, Jane. And the reason for this is because our human brains are conditioned to categorize. And

when we get new information that might actually dispute the categories that we`ve already formed, we actually assimilate that new information instead

of say, "Huh. Maybe this new information means that my current beliefs aren`t right." Our brains don`t do that. Our brains naturally want to

just confirm what we already know.

So obviously this whole event, the way that it has transpired, has been very difficult. People have been craving information and answers, and in

that time, they`ve gotten all kinds of information that probably aren`t actually that reliable, and unfortunately because of their desperation...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: My point...

HO: ... have formed these -- information.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... if they had given everybody all the key information -- how many times he was shot, what the officer`s statement was, on and on and

on -- before people had had a time to form their opinions, they would have more of an open mind about those facts. Now people are going to use those

facts to fit whatever belief they have created for themselves.

And I have to say Twitter, Donna says I don`t want to hear secondhand what the officer said. Let him speak for himself.

We`re going to take a short break. On the other side, we`re going to go to Ferguson live, find out what the situation is on the ground. Stay right

there, and I want to hear from you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officer, in fact, shot the subject.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darren Wilson has been a police officer for six years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Racial tensions and nerves on edge.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN`S FAMILY: At least six. At least six shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within the police car there was a struggle over the officer`s weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were walking peacefully down to the mall, and a young lady was hit in her face with smoke bombs and tear gas. And we were

peaceful! This is unacceptable. And this is not the law. This is unacceptable. Until we get justice, we will not step.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Eight straight nights of chaos. Protesters clashing with police. Some are complaining about looting. Some are saying the police

are out of control and brutalizing people.

Things spiraled so out of control the governor has called in the National Guard.

OK. Cops say two civilians were shot at and injured by unknown suspects in last night`s chaos. So what is going to happen to prevent this from being

repeated tonight?

I want to go to David Mattingly, a CNN correspondent who is on the ground in Ferguson. I mean, I know the National Guard is being called in. But I

also know that apparently, they`re not enforcing a curfew. What are they - - what`s their strategy?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The strategy seems to follow the threat that they`re facing in the moment here. We`ve seen a pattern emerge

over the last weekend, over the weekend. Demonstrations generally are very peaceful during the day. They`re vocal; they`re loud; they`re organized.

But they are peaceful.

It`s when the sun goes down and people keep referring to another element that comes into these peaceful protesters that seem to seek a confrontation

with police officers.

So that`s what they`re trying to look at right now. They felt like the curfew might be affecting just the peaceful protesters and not this

element.

So again, the area where this is happening, I passed through that just a short time ago, they`re trying to keep the street clear. They`re telling

everyone on both sides of the street that they have to keep moving, because if they`re moving they can`t congregate. They don`t want to see large

crowds congregating in that area, because that`s how everything typically starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: David, can I -- can I jump in and ask you a question? Whereas people have been very alarmed. Even, I believe, the governor said

he was thunderstruck by the military images coming out of Ferguson. So to bring in the National Guard, and that would, I would think, perpetuate that

military imagery. Isn`t that fuelling the flames?

MATTINGLY: The National -- the National Guard is going to be used in a very limited fashion here, according to the governor. They`re actually

going to be based right here behind me at the staging area for the police officers. There was a time when all the police officers were actually out

working with the crowds, and at the time there was people actually advancing on this area, and they felt like they needed to keep the National

Guard here, at least a small group of National Guard, to secure this location while the police were out doing their business.

So if everything goes as expected, you won`t see the National Guardsmen actually coming into contact with any of the demonstrators at all. They`ll

be right here securing the staging area where the police are coming from.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But a quick question. And what happens to the local police? Are they essentially dismissed? "You`ve been working around the

clock. Go home?" Because it seems people are emotional on both sides.

Yes, you know, when they brought in the Missouri troopers, the state police, they said let, well, you know, let the local police who were too

emotionally involved and too tired, go away. We`re going to bring in these troopers.

Now the troopers, apparently, are too emotionally involved and too tired. Let`s bring in the National Guard.

But for the average person out there, it`s still the same imagery. It`s people who look like army, military units going through a part of America

when it looks like it should be some kind of foreign war zone.

MATTINGLY: The Missouri State Patrol, the state police here, this is still their operation. It`s not going to belong to the National Guard out there

in the street. It`s still the Missouri State Patrol that is going to be policing that area where the demonstrations have been happening every

night. So that in itself has not changed.

What we`re going to be looking for tonight is after the president speaking, after the governor speaking, after others in the community have been

speaking out, how things might happen tonight. We saw another escalation last night. We`re waiting to see if it`s going to repeat again tonight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

MATTINGLY: Every night here seems to be different in character and intensity.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Doctor -- thank you so much, Dave Mattingly, from the scene.

I`ve got to go to our panel. I just see a situation where people have formed antagonisms. OK. Let`s go to Dr. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist.

They`ve formed antagonisms. They`re people who are at loggerheads. It`s a zero sum game. And I just think that all of that military gear, actually,

in my opinion, adds fuel to the fire and makes people feel like they`re being oppressed. And they`re being essentially treated like the enemy so

that, in essence it`s like, "Well, if you`re going to treat me like the enemy, then I`m the enemy."

HO: That`s right, Jane. So here`s the big problem. The more you bring people in who look like they`re authoritative and pitching them on two

opposite sides, the more the civilian is doing to defend themselves with aggression if necessary. So what we know is if people are going to

develop...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at this image. Look at this image.

HO: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the United States of America. OK. This looks like Iraq during the worst times.

HO: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, I can`t get my mind around this image in the United States of America in 2014. And I didn`t mean to interrupt you. But

I just want to get a sense of what this says about our culture.

And we all know that, you know, because the Iraq war was winding down, a lot of that military stuff ended up going to the local law enforcement,

because they wanted local law enforcement to be able to react to terrorism and to chemical -- possible chemical attacks and all of this other stuff.

But -- but -- I don`t know who that person is. But can you -- can you weigh in on that? Because it`s scary to me.

HO: It is very scary. And like you said, these images that we`re seeing paint a picture of what the civilian, the common civilian might be feeling

in this neighborhood.

And here`s the problem. These individuals, these people in the community, are traumatized individuals. This has been something that`s rocked their

neighborhood. And they`re being treated like they`re the enemy, when they should be taken care of like traumatized victims.

Now how should we treat traumatized victims? You should be sending people to support them in their mental state. And we`re not really doing that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But -- but quickly -- quickly, Adam Thompson, what happens when police feel they`re being attacked?

THOMPSON: Listen, police have a very hard job. And in a situation like this, you`ve got to let protesters vent. You`ve got to let them assemble,

march, protest and have free speech. But it has to be done lawfully and peacefully. When it gets to the point where it crosses that line where

people`s lives become endangered, then they have to escalate the way they control the crowd.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side...

THOMPSON: And that`s unfortunately what`s happening here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... of the break, we`re going to talk to a photojournalist who was shot with a rubber bullet by authorities. Why are they shooting

journalists? Stay right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six. That`s at least how many times 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bless his soul. Police shot this boy outside my apartment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at these images. Last night considered the most violent night yet in the confrontations going on in Ferguson, Missouri.

I want to go to Tim Schimsky. You`re a photojournalist. You say you were hit with a rubber bullet.

TIM SCHIMSKY, PHOTOJOURNALIST: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us where you were hit. We have some photos of your injuries as we play them. Tell us where you were hit and what the heck

happened.

SCHINSKY: Well, I arrived on the scene about 9:00 in the night. Three hours before the curfew was about to start at midnight, thinking I had

enough time to get in and capture what`s going on, tell both sides of the story, and then extricate myself off before the curfew starts. 9:30 comes

around and all I know is I didn`t know at the time there were some shots fired earlier.

All I knew was I arrived on the scene. It seemed like peaceful on both sides. And then all the sudden tear gas canisters started flying into the

crowd that was in front of me. And I just found myself holding the ground behind them. I was hit by some canisters, which is part of the job. What

wasn`t part of the job is being hit unknown without any aim from a distance of a football field away from the police on my right thigh. By a rubber

bullet or I think it`s called a styrofoam baton. Three inches by 1.5 inch projectile.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now how bad did that hurt, Tim?

SCHINSKY: It stung. Let me tell you, it felt like getting shot. I have never been shot before but I`m assuming without the blood and without that

extra trauma. I saw the projectile on the ground. I didn`t know what it was. I thought it was going to blow up like I`ve seen all these canisters

blowing up with the tear gas. I stepped back and exclaimed what the heck is that? Somebody in front of me picked it up and he sort of inspected it.

Saw it was not going to go off.

I can`t figure it out so I put it in my pocket and sort of got myself out of there after that to tell the story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So let me ask you Tim. Tim, let me ask you, do you think that the police are handling this the right way? Or do you feel like

they`re kind of exacerbating the situation with this amazing sort of overwhelming display of military might. And we`ve learned that they`ve

gotten locally, local police department started getting some of this stuff from the government.

SCHINSKY: Well, let me just tell you, you know, everybody will agree that being a police officer is one of the toughest jobs in the country to defend

our freedoms. Excuse me.

But what I don`t understand and I stood there in disbelief as I`m trying to cover the thing and kind of walking back myself trying to get out of it.

"Where am I? Why am I at war? I thought I was in America."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, thank you for sharing your story. I want to go back to our panelists. Areva Martin, what are your thoughts

when you hear the story of this journalist being hit with a rubber bullet?

MARTIN: You know, it`s just so disheartening -- Jane. I grew up in a community right next door to Ferguson. I`m talking every day to family and

friends who live in this community. I still feel like I`m a part of the community, even though I`ve lived away from St. Louis.

These are people who just want to be heard. And one important part that I think we`re missing in this whole situation the importance of dialogue.

Everyone that I talk to says most of the people who are creating any kind of distraction as it relates to the protesters, they`re young people. And

they`re young people who want to be heard.

I haven`t heard --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do they separate out the looters and there`s a very small percentage of people who are looting from the peaceful protesters.

And let me throw that at J. Wyndal Gordon.

GORDON: Well, I think what they ought to do is hold a town hall meeting. I mean nobody -- out of all these people who are in charge -- nobody has

ever thought of that? Nobody ever thought of gathering all these people in a coliseum to let them air out their grievances.

Because at the end of the day, people -- again as I`m echoing what everybody else has said -- people want to be heard. If you give them an

opportunity to vent, I mean that might slow down some of what`s going on. They don`t need police of this magnitude for that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Speaking of being heard. Debbie in New York, you`ve been waiting a long time. What do you have to say, Debbie?

DEBBIE, NEW YORK (via telephone): Hey, Jane. How are you?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good.

DEBBIE: Jane, I want to go back to what precipitated this issue. And really I`m a little sick of the nonsense that anyone could honestly believe

that police officers are out to intentionally shoot and kill African- American males when we know the majority of these young men are being killed by their own peers. And this is a fact.

And the race hustlers like Al Sharpton who run to Ferguson to rile up these protesters, cause more havoc, why aren`t they instead preaching to these

young protesters the message, the beautiful message of the late great Martin Luther King? Peace.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me bring Zerlina Maxwell, contributor to policymic.com to respond to what this caller just said.

MAXWELL: Well, I think that she might have missed the speech that Al Sharpton gave a few days ago where he encouraged the protesters to

peacefully protest and express their opinions. I think the bottom line here is that too often in this country we have circumstances where an

unarmed black man is killed by the police.

Here in New York City, Eric Garner just a few weeks ago was killed on camera by the police. And that officer has not been arrested either. So

naturally there`s going to be a large amount of frustration among the African-American communities and allies for accountability.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are going to --

(CROSSTALK)

MAXWELL: Somebody is dead who was not armed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sorry to interrupt you. We`re going to take a short break. On the other side we`re going to get back to the forensics. Dr.

Bill Manion very, very noted chief of pathology and medical examiner is going to be here to explain the autopsy on Michael Brown -- the independent

autopsy, one of three.

Stay right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As he stands up, Michael just bum rushes him. Just shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face, and then, of course,

Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun. At one point he had the gun totally turned against his hip and Darren shoves it away and the gun

goes off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: At least six -- at least six shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t shoot. Don`t shoot.

CRUMP: The first one is what we will call -- what we call the kill shot.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Brown was not just some young black boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have one that entered just above the right eyebrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the street.

MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSICS EXPERT: There weren`t signs of a struggle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.

CROWD: Don`t shoot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.

CROWD: Don`t shoot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.

CROWD: Don`t shoot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a son, an uncle, a nephew. He was not a suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Bill Manion, chief of pathology, Memorial Hospital at Salem, medical examiner -- explain the autopsy results that we heard from

Dr. Michael Baden today.

DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, right now it has been established that there were six shots fired into Mr. Brown. And Dr. Baden very

carefully -- the whole point of doing an autopsy like this is to take each shot, say where did it enter? Where did it exit? Or if it stayed in the

body, where can we recover it?

That`s why before this autopsy was started, x-rays were taken. And that will guide the pathologist to know exactly where the bullet will be.

Bullets can travel through the body in funny ways. They can ricochet off bones, they can actually get under the skin and tunnel under the skin and

be on the other side of where you were expecting to find it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what did these bullets do? You have six bullets. Give us the lowdown. Six shots.

MANION: Well, three bullets were recovered. Correct -- three bullets were recovered from the body. Three passed through the body. I`m glad no one

got hit by these bullets because often times in cases like this, especially if it`s in a crowded situation, the police are given bullets that will not

be too powerful, because they`ll go right through the body and hit innocent people behind them.

So in this case, as you mentioned there four gunshots to the right arm. In the (inaudible) eminence where the thumb is, at the base of the hand, in

the forearm, and I would say underneath the biceps, above the biceps -- those are those four bullets. And when we do an autopsy, the anatomic

position is pronation -- in other words the anatomic position is this.

So this is considered the front of the body. And this is considered the back. And again, each bullet that we find we have to give it the three

degrees of travel. Is it front to back, is it side to side? Or left to right? Is it up to down?

Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, you have a shot here, and he`s 6`4". You have a shot in the eye. You have four in the right

arm. What does it tell you? Because people are saying, the arm shots are indicating that he had his hands up, which is what some witnesses are

saying. Others are saying it doesn`t necessarily show that because hands move around.

MURPHY: Well, we need more information. But at this point what it looks like is he was not shot like this because the bullets appear to be going in

frontal to the body. And actually a lot of witnesses said that he did turn around before the shot. So he wasn`t shot from behind. He wasn`t shot

when he was going like this.

He was still shot a lot of times and he was shot in a very, you know disturbing location at the end at the top of the head. That`s a freaky

thing to say about any police officer shooting. But -- and this is important. If Josie, the mysterious Josie radio caller who is defending

the cop first one to do so, if she`s right that this guy was on some kind of drugs, number one, Mr. Baden, forensic examiner, release the toxicology

ASAP. Because if he was on some kind of crazy drug that made him act out of the ordinary, then maybe that lends some credence to the cop`s story

that he has to keep shooting because this guy was a bit out of his mind.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, first of all we`re not going to get the toxicology reports. They never release them right away. It takes a while for those

toxicology reports to come back.

MURPHY: But we need them. We need them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question and I`ll throw this to Zerlina Maxwell. Is it basically attacking somebody who is not here to

defend himself to say he looked like he was on something? Or is that just an observation?

MAXWELL: I think that`s attacking somebody who`s not here to defend themselves. Because I think that the bottom line here is that he was not

armed. He was not armed. So I don`t understand why you keep shooting. Police are trained in other methods of subduing a suspect that don`t

include deadly force. And this is not happening to white people in the country.

So I think we really need to talk honestly about racism and structural inequality because this is not happening to white kids all over the

country. Why are we shooting unarmed black people like him?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Thompson, attorney.

THOMPSON: You know listen, it`s going to come down, I think I agree with the prosecutor who was just speaking. It`s going to come down to more

information that comes out because how he was exactly shot -- the positioning is going to tell the story.

If that caller who`s (AUDIO GAP) is giving an accurate version, that it might end up being a justified shooting even though it seems horrific and

six shots were fired. If someone is on some kind of controlled substance or they`re out of their mind and they keep charging at you, a police

officer only has seconds to make a determination and protect his own safety.

So he may overreact in that brief amount of time and just keep firing. But it doesn`t mean it was malicious, he did it intentionally with a will to

kill.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to hear from the officer. That`s what people on Facebook and Twitter are saying. Let`s hear from the officer himself as

opposed to somebody who doesn`t have a last name who`s calling a radio station.

Stay right there, we`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUMP: I don`t want to sugar coat it. Their baby was executed in broad daylight. And that`s why people are so outraged. That`s why people are

frustrated. Because they`re saying yet again one of our children executed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS: Got out of his (inaudible) and just started chasing after the boy. Shots -- I`m hearing shots fired. Clearly none of

them hit him, but one I think grazed him as they say in the autopsy report. And at the end he just turn around after, I`m guessing, he felt the bullet

grazed his arm, he turns around and was shot multiple times.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN HOST: The autopsy is now showing that he was shot from the front, not the back.

CRENSHAW: Exactly.

PEREIRA: Does that square with what you saw?

CRENSHAW: Definitely, because he was running away. So when he turned toward the cop is when he let off the most shots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is one witness to the event. Michael Brown`s friend Dorian Johnson was there when Michael was shot and he has been sharing his

version of the events. But he has not mentioned the alleged robbery, a convenience store incident that happened shortly before the deadly

shooting. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIAN JOHNSON, FRIEND OF MICHAEL BROWN: Hew wasn`t causing any harm to nobody. We had no weapons on us at all. We were just walking, having a

conversation. Police officer squad car pulled up. When he pulled up, these were his exact words. He said "Get the f on the sidewalk." And we

told the officers we was not but a minute away from our destination and we were sure to be out of the street. We were having a conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, according to the police incident report, Michael Brown grabbed a box of Swisher Sweet cigars and handed them to Dorian

Johnson. Brown reached across the counter and "grabbed numerous packs" -- that`s a quote from the incident report. Cashier attempted to stop Michael

Brown from leaving, forcefully pushed him back into the display rack. Brown and Johnson exited the store with the cigars.

Now, there was a lot of controversy over cops releasing video of the convenience store incident at the same time that they released the name of

the police officer. But if -- if this alleged robbery did occur and Dorian Johnson never mentioned it, does that discredit him as a witness?

Let`s go to the "Lion`s Den" and debate it. And I`ll start with J. Wyndal Gordon, attorney.

GORDON: Well, absolutely not. This is really the facts. And first of all, it wasn`t a robbery. At best if anything it was a theft. And there`s

a big difference between theft and robbery because the fact that it was a theft -- and that`s how it came across on the radio. Police officer didn`t

even have the proper authority to arrest him. At best, he could have gotten this information -- you know a citation or have the other guy go

down and --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, if you -- if -- it`s a big if. But if you`re stealing cigars that are worth, I don`t know $48 is one of the

things that I --

THOMPSON: Jane, Jane -- that`s ridiculous.

GORDON: That had nothing to do -- what they`re trying to do is make him killable.

THOMPSON: That`s ridiculous.

GORDON: What they`re trying to do is make Michael Brown killable so no one feels upset for the fact that he`s dead because they killed him. That`s

all they`re trying to do. They`re trying to discredit him and destroy --

MURPHY: He`s not killable.

GORDON: Well, whatever --

(CROSSTALK)

GORDON: I`m absolutely 100 percent --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One second. Let me give Wendy Murphy a chance to respond. Go ahead.

MURPHY: First of all, even if it were a robbery, and that just means there was threatened use of force, which I saw on the video.

GORDON: He already had the stuff. He was in possession of it. What he`s trying to do --

MURPHY: He is not -- listen, let me make my point.

GORDON: I think you are.

MURPHY: Please.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, hold on.

MURPHY: I`m trying to support your argument. My point is that even if it had been a robbery or whatever you call it, he is not killable. He

shouldn`t be killed. Nobody should be shot because they stole cigars.

But the fact that people made this relevant, in my opinion, makes them the bad guy. And I don`t care that the friend didn`t mention this because I

think it`s just as irrelevant as when we talk about a rape victim`s past sexual history. It does not entitle people to rape. This does not entitle

people to be killed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Adam Thompson -- your turn.

THOMPSON: I disagree with these guys for one basic reason. We all want to analyze each situation separately, which they are. But be truthful about

it. Look, should he have been gunned down? No. You have to react according to the situation. But what happened in that store is what

happened in that store. He was strong arm robbing that owner of that store.

GORDON: Let`s talk about the gunshot --

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: Don`t try to paint him as someone that wasn`t robbing a store.

GORDON: -- because that`s what I really want to talk about. I want to talk about the gunshot. It appears that the police officer --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time, please.

THOMPSON: Talk about the gunshot separately. Talk about the gunshot separately. Don`t try to undermine or underplay that he just robbed a

store.

GORDON: Well, you should know -- as a lawyer, you should know that you didn`t see a robbery. You didn`t see a robbery. You`re just buying into

what everybody else is saying in the media. That`s not the --

THOMPSON: I`m not buying into it.

GORDON: Second of all, let`s talk about the gun shots. If you can stop yelling --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, guys. I`ve got to jump in, because we`re not all allowed to talk at once. But I can tell you that there are conflicting

reports about what the officer knew about this entire incident, when he pulled up and had the confrontation with Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson

that ultimately ended in Michael Brown`s death.

Listen to this. And then we`ll discuss it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The initial contact between the officer and Mr. Brown was not related to the robbery. Their initial contact was simply he was

coming from a sick case, saw two young men walking in the street, down the road blocking traffic and he pulled up and asked them to get on to the

sidewalk.

And then as he passed them, I guess that`s when he might have seen the evidence and connected it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, people have criticized this police chief for basically changing the story and releasing things in dribs and drabs.

Unfortunately, we`re out of time. I want to thank our incredible panel. I have to say though that`s part of the problem. In my humble opinion, had

they released it all, complete transparency at the beginning, we wouldn`t be where we are right now. The longer this lasts, the more people are

going to get emotionally invested.

This is a cautionary tale for police -- ok. Next time, do it different. Let`s not have a next time. That`s the real message. Let`s find a way to

avoid these kinds of deadly confrontations.

Nancy next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END