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Jane Velez-Mitchell

Suspect, 23, Killed Near Site of Michael Brown Shooting; The Shooting of Michael Brown; Moms Vanish within 20 Miles of Each Other

Aired August 19, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... what the most important piece of evidence is going to be until after the trial`s over. In this case, it happened to be a key

which led you to a crime scene.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news tonight, it`s happened again. Another deadly police shooting rocks the same area. And this latest deadly

incident happened just hours after these horrific scenes of mayhem overnight in Ferguson, Missouri, where police clashed with protesters over

the shooting death of unarmed African-American teen Michael Brown.

Then just hours ago, another African-American young man, 23 years old, was shot dead by two St. Louis police officers. That happened less than four

miles away from the spot where 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot six times and killed by a white cop ten days ago.

Will this new shooting lead to another night of chaos and confrontation as the mystery surrounding Michael Brown`s death deepens?

Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROWD NOISES)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay on the ground! Get him out of the car!

(ALARM SOUNDS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops arrested at least 78 people and fired stun grenades, teargas canisters and rubber bullets into protesting crowds last night.

Now, this new officer-involved shooting has eerie similarities to the Michael Brown case. Two police officers shot and killed a man who

allegedly took two energy drinks and a package of pastries from a convenience store without paying and then approached them with a knife.

Here`s what police say happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The store owner and the alderwoman said the suspect was armed with a knife, acting erratically, pacing back and forth in the

street, talking to himself. As officers arrived, the suspect turned towards the officers and starting to walk towards them, clutching his

(UNINTELLIGIBLE).

He then pulled out a knife in what was described as an overhand grip, and told the officer, "Shoot me now. Kill me now." The officers began giving

him verbal commands: "Drop the knife. Step back. Drop the knife."

Both officers are out of the car. When they initially got out of the car, they did not have their weapons drawn. When the suspect displayed his

knife, they drew their weapons. The officers are giving the suspect verbal commands: "Stop, drop the knife. Stop, drop the knife."

The suspect moved toward the passenger. The police officer that was in the passenger seat of the vehicle, at which time he came within three to four

feet of the officer, and the officer shot. Both officers fired their weapons, striking the suspect. And the suspect was deceased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this some kind of horrible coincidence or something more? What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

And please join the conversation by going to my Jane Velez-Mitchell Facebook page and talk to me on Twitter. Our Lion`s Den panel fired up,

and they are ready to debate. But first, we`re going to show you some live pictures of protests happening right now in Ferguson.

And straight out to CNN correspondent Jason Carroll, who is live on the ground.

Jason, as we show you these live pictures, live images of protests going on where you`re at in the same community, how has this new incident involving

another young African-American man shot dead by police just a few miles away affected the mood in Ferguson as we head toward nighttime?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, here`s the -- here`s the issue. I think there`s a very strong argument just from being here on the ground for

as long as I have, that the mood has been the same for decades.

And the mood is this: that there is a significant number of people in the African-American community who do not trust the police department. When

you have a Michael Brown incident, that amplifies that. And then when you have another incident like what you saw earlier today, once again, that

just feeds into this gulf between these two -- these two people.

You`ve got African-Americans on the ground, many of whom are out here right now in support of Michael Brown, saying that the Ferguson Police Department

has consistently treated them unfairly.

That`s why you see so much anger here on the ground. That`s why you see so many people demonstrating like we saw last night.

But I have to make a point about that. And that`s this -- that there are a number of people -- in fact, the majority of the people who are coming out

here are out here to peaceful -- to peacefully demonstrate and to peacefully protest, make a political statement.

But what police are dealing with here on the ground are these so-called people coming from the outside, a number of so-called outside agitators.

If you look at the arrest numbers, what, some 70 people arrested last night. Police saying one of four -- one out of four were people actually

from out of town.

And so what police are having to deal with is how do you deal with the protesters who are here peacefully, trying to make a political statement,

versus those who are out here to cause trouble, to steal and to loot? That is what police have been dealing with every single night, and most likely

that`s what they`ll be dealing with again tonight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what are the ground rules for tonight, Jason? Are they saying, for example, protesters have to keep moving? They can`t stop?

Is there a curfew? What are the ground rules as we are still reeling from this latest news of yet another police deadly shooting?

CARROLL: Well, let me just say one thing about that. That`s part of some of the criticism that police and law enforcement in general has had here on

the ground, that from day to day, the ground rules, if you will, change.

Last night when we were out there, we were told to keep moving. What happened was the crowd just did sort of like a big loop, protesting in a

big loop. As long as you kept moving, you were fine. So that was one ground rule.

Then at one point you had a curfew. Then you don`t have a curfew.

There`s been some confusion early on, at least last week, in terms of how police should respond. Should they make an arrest? Should they not make

an arrest?

So t here`s been a lot of back and forth in terms of how law enforcement responds. I think some in law enforcement would say, "Look, we`re just

trying to respond to, in terms of how we`re meeting the crowd, taking it sort of day by day."

But in terms of the ground rules, I can tell you what they were last night. Tonight, it could be something completely different.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jason Carroll, excellent reporting. Stay safe. And you`re right in the thick of it, so be careful.

Right after today`s new shooting, the deadly police shooting of the 23- year-old man -- it happened today -- the police raced to give a news conference, and they wanted to get the story out because of all the

criticism, of course, that the story was incomplete when it came to Michael Brown`s death.

So they said this man, this 23-year-old African-American man, ended up about three to four feet away from officers and holding a knife. And the

cops suggested that the two officers in question had no other option but to shoot. Let`s listen to the officer. Then we`ll debate it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think officer safety is the No. 1 issue. So if you`re the family of a police officer, and somebody approaches you within

three feet with a knife, I think you have the right to defend yourself and protect yourself. So I think it certainly is reasonable that an officer

has an expectation to go home at the end of the night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go out to the Lion`s Den with Mo Ivory, do you buy it, that no other option but for these two officers to shoot this 23-year-

old African-American man who was acting -- allegedly acting erratically?

MO IVORY, RADIO PERSONALITY: Jane, I don`t know the full circumstances. It`s only what they`re telling us that we know.

But I don`t understand why there can`t be a show of force that is equal to the force that they are receiving. It seems that sometimes -- and I`m not

sure if that`s the case in this situation, because I need more facts -- but why is it always shoot to kill?

If somebody has a knife, it seems you could shoot them in the arm. You could shoot them in the shoulder. You could shoot them -- you wouldn`t

have to shoot them to kill them to stop them from approaching you any further. That`s the part I don`t understand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney, what about Tase him? I mean, you`ve got a 23-year-old with a knife. You`ve got

two officers with guns. He was acting erratically, you`d think, well, maybe he has mental problems; maybe he`s ill. Why not Tase him?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Jane -- but Jane, hat are police supposed to do? Of course this is unfortunate. It`s sad

anytime anybody dies. But the police are acting quickly. They have one second, a split second to respond.

By the eyewitness testimony or the accounts of people that witnessed this, this guy was reaching for his waist. He was coming towards the officers.

They gave him chance after chance to stop, to get rid of his knife, and he wasn`t following instructions. They waited until he was just a couple of

feet away from them. They had to shoot. They had to protect themselves, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course they did.

SEDAGHATFAR: We can`t stop the police from doing their job.

IVORY: Nobody wants them...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. Sorry. Go ahead, Mo.

IVORY: Nobody wants them not to do their job. Nobody wants them not to protect themselves so that they can go home, as well.

But when you say, well, what were they supposed to do? They could have shot him in the shoulder. They could have shot him in the hand so that the

knife would have dropped. They don`t have to always shoot to kill.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second. OK.

SEDAGHATFAR: You can`t suggest that these are -- that these officers are shooting to kill. You can`t make that leap.

IVORY: The person is dead. What do you mean?

SEDAGHATFAR: ... officers on the line of duty like this.

IVORY: The person is dead. How can you not assume they shot to kill? The person`s dead!

SEDAGHATFAR: What`s the suggestion? What`s the suggestion?

IVORY: The suggestion is to make an assessment not to use such excessive force.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me go to Marc Harrold.

SEDAGHATFAR: Because they are trained. They are trained to do that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The gentleman in the white jacket, Marc Harrold, used to be a police officer.

So you`ve got a man acting erratically, Marc. OK? He`s walking with an armband, assuming that what the police are saying is correct. And he pulls

out a knife, and then they get about four feet away from the officer, this person, and these two officers said they had no option but to shoot. Do

you agree, no other option but to shoot?

MARC HARROLD, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Well, at that point, you have a ladder of escalating force. Obviously, there had been things, other things

they did besides shoot. They didn`t shoot first at this point. They had their physical presence; they were in uniform. They gave verbal commands;

they continued to give verbal commands.

As far as a Taser, I don`t know what other equipment they had. I don`t know what their procedures are.

As far as shooting someone in the leg or the shoulder, that`s not usually how police are trained. The situation is, you don`t shoot unless you`re in

a deadly encounter or serious bodily injury. But when you do shoot, it`s usually for a -- at that point, you`re using lethal force and from that

distance, that`s how it`s going to go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go to Christina Coleman news and political editor at Global Grind. You were in Ferguson last week.

The -- I had to read it twice, and my eyes popped out when I saw there`s another shooting involving a young African-American who was in a

convenience store accused of taking pastries and a couple of energy drinks. The eerie parallels to Michael Brown, a teenager who was in a convenience

store, who was accused of taking cigars; and both of these young men end up dead. There`s been protests after one, and then they proceed to have

another deadly shooting. It`s -- is it coincidence?

CHRISTINA COLEMAN, GLOBAL GRIND: I mean, at this point, I have to assume that the police are just instigating. I mean, they know what`s going to

get this community riled up.

You have Michael Brown last week. You have this 23-year-old black male this week. And I`m just not buying it. There are other options. You

don`t shoot to kill first. And I`m not surprised. Sadly, I`m not surprised. We`re talking about a community of police who are tear gassing

this community, throwing teargas canisters on people`s front porches, tear gassing children, firing rubber bullets. I mean, we`re talking about a

police force that has historically not protected and served this community. So...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kent Zimmerman. Kent.

KENT ZIMMERMAN, LEGAL ANALYST: First of all, listen, it`s two separate police departments that we`re talking about. I don`t think there`s a vast

conspiracy among the police departments to instigate violence.

But the -- the important thing that I would point out that I saw reported about today`s shooting is that two officers reportedly fired at the same

time on this 23-year-old -- 23-year-old suspect. That suggests to me that they were following procedure.

COLEMAN: That`s excessive.

ZIMMERMAN: They felt they were in imminent harm. They felt as if they were in imminent harm and they had to react. And I don`t think it`s a

coincidence that they both shot at the same time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you think the fact that both of them unloaded their weapons -- and we don`t know how many shots were fired at this point;

information still coming in. But you think that`s a sign that they acted appropriately, because they both fired at the same time? Wow. I want to

give Mo ten seconds to respond to that. Then we`ve got to go to break. And we`ve got so much more.

IVORY: Listen, I think that that`s an analysis that would make sense, except I still think the force was excessive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got so much exploding on Facebook. Virginia: "Why couldn`t the Ferguson Police -- why is it always shoot to

kill?"

Twitter, Tara says, "Protesters are fine. Law-breakers are not."

A lot of the social media comments, kind of 50/50. Maybe the way a lot of people in general are. There are some people who see it from the police

perspective. There`s a lot of people who see it from the perspective of the protesters. Is it an either/or? Is this a zero sum game? Do we have

to choose sides? Is there any hope for conciliation? What are we going to see tonight?

Stay right there. We have more live on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) media, you need to disperse immediately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But anyone who has been at these protests understands that there is a dangerous dynamic in the night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Started chasing after the boy, I`m hearing shots fired. Clearly, none of them hit him. But one, I think, did graze him as

they said on the autopsy report. And at the end, he just turned around after I`m guessing he felt the bullet graze his arm. He turns around and

was shot multiple times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s one witness. It all began ten days ago when Officer Darren Wilson shot 18-year-old Michael Brown at least six times,

killing him. To decide if this shooting was excessive force or not, the big question is was Brown moving towards the officer, fleeing or peacefully

surrendering?

Brand-new cell phone video, a purported witness off camera tells another bystander he saw Michael Brown, then turn around and walk towards Officer

Wilson. Now, that`s a description similar to the officer`s version. So let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police fired shots. The next thing I know, the police shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s the ambulance? Why isn`t somebody helping him (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next thing I know, I think he`s missing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) started running, kept coming towards police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s gone, O.G. He`s gone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, police did it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to the Lion`s Den and Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist. How many times was Michael Brown

shot, where was he shot and what does it indicate about what he was doing at the moment he was killed?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the second autopsy revealed -- done by Michael Baden revealed that there were six bullets that

penetrated Mr. Brown`s body. There were four to the right arm including one toward the palm of the right hand. And there were two bullets that

penetrated the head.

This diagram does not really show the trajectory accurately on the top-most head shot. That shot entered through the crown of the skull. And the

trajectory is downward. And what that tells us is that the head was bent forward when the gun was shot.

Now, what does that mean? It`s got to be interpreted. It could either mean that Mr. Brown was falling and his head was bent downward as he was

falling to the ground. Or it could mean that he was charging at the police officer when that shot was fired.

You can`t -- you know, these kinds of pieces of information are critical in the reconstruction. But you don`t have all the answers from an autopsy.

In fact, shots to the arm could very well be interpreted as, "I`m giving up, don`t shoot." Or the hands, because hands can move around, the hands

could have been down. The hands could have been different positions. So it`s almost impossible to say whether the shot was because of a defensive

wound or the hands were down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So after this independent autopsy revealed six gunshot wounds, Michael Brown`s family is calling it murder. They`re

demanding the officer who fired the shots be arrested. Listen. We`ll debate it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: His mother wanted to ask the question that Dr. Baden nor any of the lawyers could answer: "What else do

we need to give them to arrest the killer of my child?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Straight out to the Lion`s Den. OK. There is a grand jury that is convening. It could happen as soon as tomorrow. So

what do you make -- and I`ll go to Christina Coleman, news and politics editor, Global Grind. Should -- do you think that the family is right?

Arrest him right away or let this whole grand jury process play out and see what happens there?

COLEMAN: I mean, it would be nice to let the grand jury play out. But at the end of the day, Darren Wilson needs to be arrested. I think everyone

wants some semblance of normalcy to come back to Ferguson. People want justice, and you can`t have peace without justice. You have to arrest this

man. I mean, there`s some indisputable facts here. He was shot unarmed. This teenager is...

SEDAGHATFAR: Jane....

COLEMAN: ... dead. He was shot in his arm. But know we`re debating that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita.

SEDAGHATFAR: I understand people want answers, Jane. I understand people are angry. That`s totally understandable in this case. But we have to

wait until the investigation plays itself out. It`s way too soon to rush to convict this officer.

COLEMAN: He shot an unarmed teenager. He shot an unarmed teenager.

SEDAGHATFAR: Like the doctor said on the panel, we have to wait for the ballistics.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.

SEDAGHATFAR: We have to...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just finish your thought, Anahita.

SEDAGHATFAR: We have to wait for all of this objective data -- what I`m saying is right now all we have are so far is rhetoric.

COLEMAN: We have fact.

SEDAGHATFAR: We have speculation. No, it`s not. Until the forensics come in, let`s look at some of the objective data, Jane.

COLEMAN: Was Michael Brown unarmed? Was Michael Brown unarmed?

SEDAGHATFAR: Can I finish my statement? I`m not saying the police officer did or did not use excessive force. What I`m saying is justice in this

case is not rushing to convict an officer in the court of public opinion.

Let the evidence play -- let the evidence come in. Let the police, like, reconcile some of these statements. Even the witness testimony contradicts

one another. These things take time, and there`s too much at risk to jump to conclusions early on because of the public outrage.

IVORY: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, you`ve had your say. Let`s go back to -- is it Mo who wants to speak?

IVORY: Yes, Jane. There`s a difference between talking about a conviction and talking about arresting him. Yesterday if you were not -- if you were

standing still why protesting, you got arrested. They didn`t wait to collect all the facts to arrest you. You got arrested, because they said

that`s what was going to happen. And if you weren`t doing it...

HERALD: Two wrongs don`t make a right.

IVORY: That does not...

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me go to Marc Harrold. Is it different with police officers? Because police officers...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... carry guns, and they have duties; they have responsibilities; they have powers. It -- are the rules of the game

different when it comes to cops?

COLEMAN: Of course they are.

HERALD: Not always when they -- you know, I agree with Anahita on this, because you know, justice in this case is -- the due process, but they have

to be applied evenly.

A grand jury is being impanelled. I don`t know if probable cause has arisen and they don`t feel they have it. Obviously, the community should

be dissatisfied if they rush to judgment and don`t get a...

IVORY: No. An arrest is completely -- an arrest is completely different from a conviction.

HERALD: You have to have probable cause.

IVORY: You can be arrested and then bonded out, and there`s plenty of probable cause to arrest him right now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, there are a whole group of people who are saying the prosecutor is biased, and he needs to step down. We`ll tell

you what their argument is on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: These are armed police with the semiautomatic rifles, with batons, with shields, many of them dressed for combat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... this area. Please leave for public safety. There`s been a gunshot victim. Please leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has to stop. It has to stop. I don`t want anybody to get hurt. I don`t want an officer to get hurt. I don`t want a

citizen to get hurt. But we have to find a way to stop it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at those protests. Protests and conflicting reports about what the officer who fired the six shots that killed Michael Brown

knew about a convenience store robbery that occurred minutes earlier, allegedly involving Michael Brown taking cigars. Did he know about that?

And if so, when did he know about that? Listen to what an alleged friend of Officer Darren Wilson, the cop who fired the deadly shots, told Radio

America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSIE, FRIEND OF OFFICER DARREN WILSON (via phone): I know he pulled up ahead of them and he was watching them. And then he gets the call in that

there was a strong-arm robbery, and they give the description. And he`s looking at them. They`ve got something in their hands that looks like it

could be what -- you know, those cigars or whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so first the police chief said that the two incidents, this convenience store incident and the shooting, were not related. Later,

he said the officer might have connected the robbery to Michael Brown when he stopped him.

Now a friend of the cop is claiming Officer Wilson had heard the robbery call on the radio and saw the teens carrying something that might have been

cigars.

So my question, and I`ll start with Kent Zimmerman, attorney, should this convenience store video be shown to the grand jury or is it totally

irrelevant?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, prosecutor -- St. Louis county prosecutor Bob McCulloch has said he is going to show this video to the jury and -- to the grand

jury. And there`s this old saying, Jane, you know the saying that a grand jury would indict even a ham sandwich.

In this case, I actually don`t think it`s likely that this --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I prefer to say a vegetarian sandwich. Go ahead.

ZIMMERMANN: Yes, there you go. I don`t think -- I think it`s a long shot that the officer is going to be indicted. Part of that is because

McCulloch has suggested he`s going to show that videotape. Also officers have said that they have at least a dozen witnesses who back up officer

accounts of what happened during this shooting.

Also a big factor -- and I actually went to college in St. Louis. I worked during college in this courthouse where the grand jury is going to convene.

70 percent of the jury pool in St. Louis County is white. And many believe that this case is breaking down along racial lines. So that may well play

into whether or not there`s going to be an indictment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Christina Coleman, do you think that that video from what happened before Michael Brown was shot should be part of what the

grand jury sees because some might say, that will taint these grand jurors against the man who was shot dead and they will become less sympathetic?

COLEMAN: I can`t answer yes or no at this point. I guess we have to wait for -- and we`ve been playing the waiting game for quite some time -- to

see what Officer Darren Wilson did know. I do know that this tape -- releasing this tape last week has already criminalized Michael Brown.

So at the end of the day -- I mean we have a teen here, who was unarmed and shot but the police have released this tape. They`re painting him as a

criminal. There`s speculation that he might have had marijuana in his system. So I think in the court of public opinion, some people have

already made their decision.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And not only the court --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we don`t have independent confirmation about that marijuana at all.

COLEMAN: No, that`s just -- that`s just speculation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So everybody thinks it`s ok to show the video?

IVORY: No, I don`t think it`s ok.

ZIMMERMANN: It goes to his state of mind.

SEDAGHATFAR: It goes to the state of mind of the officer.

IVORY: No, I don`t think it`s ok at all. The stories keep flipping. First the officer didn`t even know about the robbery. Now there`s a person

who`s counting on secondhand information that he did hear about it on the radio.

This video was wrong to be released in the first place. It was meant to criminalize and put Michael Brown in a bad light and also to taint a jury

pool. Right now, Jane, there is so much going on with this prosecutor, with the Ferguson police department and possibly with whatever comes out of

the grand jury --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me get to that -- let me get to that right now. Prosecutors say Bob McCulloch, the prosecutor in charge of the Michael

Brown shooting has too many ties to the police department. They want him taken off the case. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMILAH NASHEED, MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: His cousin is a police officer. His mother works for the police department. His uncle is a police officer.

And, again, we think that his judgment will be clogged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Anahita Sedaghatfar, we`ve learned that prosecutor McCulloch`s own father was a police officer who was killed in the line of

duty by an African-American man when McCulloch was only 12 years old. Can he be impartial or not? Do we need a special prosecutor like they had in

the Trayvon Martin case?

SEDAGHATFAR: I think that`s the issue. Can he be impartial? So far Jane, we know this is going before a grand jury. It`s not like he`s just sitting

on his hands doing nothing. There`s no allegation of wrongdoing. He`s been in office since 1991. And if this was the case, Jane, he would never

be able to prosecute any case.

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMANN: Exactly, exactly.

IVORY: Anahita, where do you live? This is so ridiculous.

COLEMAN: The logic is so twisted in this case.

IVORY: Just a week ago, he was criticizing the appointment of Captain Ronnie Johnson saying that he should be removed from every --

(CROSSTALK)

IVORY: Given all the protests -- a case where he may an inherent bias because of his own personal experiences. I mean wake up. Wake up to

what`s happening in Ferguson

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You know what panel -- fiery debate. We always like it. We`re going to take a short break.

We have more new information coming in second by second. We`re going check in with Ferguson and see what`s happening on the ground with the protests -

- live when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, LAWYER FOR BROWN FAMILY: At least six, at least six shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first one is what we call the kill shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Brown was not just some young black boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got one that entered just above the right eyebrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off the street.

MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC EXPERT: There weren`t signs of a struggle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a son. He was an uncle, a nephew. He was not a suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now we`re hearing a grand jury could be hearing this case as soon as tomorrow. Famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence

Kobilinsky, will this officer who fired the shots, Officer Darren Wilson, 28 years old, be whisked into the grand jury from wherever he is in hiding

right now? And what will he have to do to explain those six different bullet wounds that we`ve seen?

KOBILINSKY: Well, these police officers use a large caliber semiautomatic weapon which that means you have to pull the trigger every time a shot is

fired and you have to exert a certain amount of force. And yes, there are differences here in the shots -- the differences between the shots to the

arm and the shots to the head.

There are legal analysts that say that every shot has to be justified. And I don`t know what the law is. I don`t know what will happen at a trial if

there is a trial. But I do believe that even if he doesn`t have to justify every single shot, he certainly has to explain the shots to the head as

opposed to the shots to the arm.

Now, Kent Zimmermann, attorney out of Chicago, you`re familiar with this procedure. There have been many witnesses who have contradicted what the

friend says the officer said. So are they going to bring those people in and tell their story? In other words, is this an objective process or

could critics be right that the prosecutor might be putting his thumb on the scale to help the officer?

ZIMMERMANN: The grand jury is widely perceived to be a tool of the prosecution. The prosecution runs the show in the grand jury proceedings.

The prosecution decides which witnesses are brought in, which evidence is brought in. And it`s going to be up to the prosecution to make those

decisions.

It could be that if the prosecution wishes, they could weight the evidence and weight the withes to favor against an indictment. That`s entirely

possible. It`s hard to know what they will do. But they have a lot of latitude in what they will do.

One other thing I just mentioned, Jane, for the people who don`t like Bob McCulloch, the chief prosecutor in St. Louis county, there`s a way that

they can get him out of this. They could vote him out of office. But the reality is that that guy has been elected in this office for 24 years in

St. Louis County --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Since 1991.

ZIMMERMANN: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But these are extraordinary circumstances. There is (inaudible) in the street that looks like it`s in a foreign war zone. This

is not your everyday situation -- extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

ZIMMERMANN: That`s not a reason to get rid of the prosecutor. That`s not a reason to get rid of the prosecutor.

IVORY: No, but an inherent bias and a favoritism towards police --

ZIMMERMANN: He doesn`t have an inherent bias.

IVORY: You don`t know that. That`s the part I don`t understand.

ZIMMERMAN: Tell me what the inherent bias is. What`s the inherent bias?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hold on. You asked the question -- ok, go ahead Mo.

IVORY: I`ll tell you what it is. His father was a police officer who died at the hands of a black man. Every one of his family members immediately

works for the police department. A couple of days ago, he made a comment in favor of the police department. He did not prosecute two white officers

-- hold on a minute. Hold on a minute.

ZIMMERMANN: If you look at the relevant precedent, that`s not a reason for himself to recuse.

IVORY: He did not prosecute two white officers who shot two unarmed black men at a Jack in the Box right there in Missouri. So, please, do not --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I don`t know that. I haven`t been able to confirm that.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Mo.

SEDAGHATFAR: My name is Anahita. My name is Anahita -- just to correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Mo, you`ve had your say. Let Anahita weigh in now. The men are not getting as much time as the women which is true in life, I

think in genera. But Anahita go ahead.

ZIMMERMANN: True.

SEDAGHATFAR: But it`s true.

I just wanted to say, look, you have to be able to show that this prosecutor cannot be neutral in this case. I don`t think there`s any

evidence of that here.

ZIMMERMAN: Correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say this -- he`s an elected official. So there`s a political side to this, though.

IVORY: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Marc Harrold, former police officer, if he comes out with an indictment of this officer, that could hurt him politically,

too, with a certain segment of the populace.

HARROLD: Look, this goes back a long time it appears. You know, you can`t govern without the consent of the governed. And there`s a major problem

here of distrust that goes back a long time. It makes it a very tough to prosecute and police because the citizens just don`t trust the police or

the prosecutor here.

IVORY: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We want to thank our fantastic panel. We always love a lively debate.

We have to move on because we have to find two missing moms -- two mysteries and two families in utter agony. Is there a connection or is the

disappearance of these two women less than 20 miles apart -- and they have so many similarities -- something more than a chilling coincidence. We`re

going to talk to the mother of one of these beautiful women next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my daughter. I will do whatever I have to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The brave and difficult fight of holding on to hope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please take the extra moment and just look on the side of the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Towering over a map, volunteers mark areas that have been combed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What areas have been searched, where do we need to go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hundreds have joined in the search.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, please, I`m begging you from one mother to another mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Two beautiful missing moms and a list of eerie parallels. Could these two mysteries be connected? 30-year-old mother of two, Joelle

Lockwood vanished July 9. She was reportedly last seen walking alone in Evansville, Indiana. Five weeks later and less than 20 miles away, another

mother of two vanishes. 27-year-old Kristy Kelley last seen during a night out with friends in Booneville, Indiana; her phone was left behind in DFW

bar restroom. Her SUV still hasn`t been found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want her back so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re not giving up. We won`t give up, Kristy. We know you`ll be found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That woman, Kristy`s mom is my exclusive guest tonight. But first, I want to go out to Casie Mason, reporter for affiliate WEHT --

Casie, what`s the latest? What about these eerie parallels between these two missing women 20 miles apart, both petite, both wearing shorts, both

mothers? Do cops think it`s a coincidence or are they checking that it could be connected?

CASIE MASON, REPORTER, WEHT: Good evening, Jane. I think yes, that`s the biggest question really being asked across the nation right now. It`s

definitely sparking a lot of fear, I think, in this area.

I was able to speak with authorities from both the Lockwood investigation as well as Kristy Kelley`s investigation. And what they told me today,

they told me that they have been working together, those two agencies. They tell me that they believe that absolutely nothing connects these two

cases together at this time, which I think is surprising to hear, but that`s what authorities are telling us right now.

Now in the Kelley case, authorities tell me they are not entirely ruling out foul play, but due to lack of evidence, it`s really making this hard

for them to tell. However, authorities in the Lockwood case, I think it`s important to note that they`re saying that this disappearance is very

unusual and they have actually I`m told interviewed a person of interest --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh.

MASON: -- in this disappearance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well that -- that could be significant to the disappearance of Kristy Kelley. We are talking to now exclusively, Kathy

Scales, the mother of this missing woman, Kristy Kelley, who is a mother two of children. I am so sorry that you`re going through this hellish

experience. Your beautiful daughter is missing.

She was in this bar with her friends. She went with a couple, VFW Bar. The couple left, she was talking to the bartender and the manager. They

were the only ones there except for an older man who cleans up at the end of the evening.

Tell us the order in which people left because that was the last place she was seen.

KATHY SCALES, MOTHER OF KRISTY KELLEY: From what I`ve been told, you know, I`m not definite on everything, but from what I understand, the couple had

left maybe like an hour before she had left. She was just sitting there at the bar chitchatting with the -- her friend the bartender. The bartender

had to go back and kind of learn how to fill out deposit slips, so when she come back in, she noticed Kristy wasn`t at the bar -- didn`t really think

much of it. And then I believe when she come back after she finished up, Kristy was still gone. She went out in the parking lot, checked in, her

vehicle was also gone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`ve given us one important piece of information, the bartender is a female. So right there, statistically anyway that

pretty much eliminates that person, at least in my mind.

Now you`re looking at this video of surveillance footage that could show your daughter`s car driving away from the bar the night she disappeared.

The video was captured by restaurant surveillance camera -- the footage is dark, it`s impossible to see the driver. So this could be Kristy in her

silver Nissan SUV, or it could be somebody else driving it with her inside.

Now I understand, ma`am, that your daughter left her cell phone in the bathroom of the bar, so there`s no pings. Do you think that`s odd that she

left her cell phone there?

SCALES: You know, my mind has wondered both ways thinking, well maybe she was just using the restroom, didn`t want it to fall out of her pocket, laid

it up on the shelf. But it`s very, very unlike her not to notice it, you know, like immediately not being in her pocket. Because you know, young

girls, their phones are like attached to their hip anymore it seems like. And I just can`t imagine her not walking back in there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question because we`re short on time. Did she have a love interest? Did she have any kind of a boyfriend or ex-

boyfriend, no names please, but somebody that obviously cops would want to the talk to?

SCALES: No. Not really. I mean she had guy friends, you know, but no, there was nothing like a love relationship going on at the time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she had never said to you that she`d had a fight with anybody or that she felt in any way -- she was headed back to your house,

is that correct?

SCALES: That`s what I believe because of the camera showing it was coming towards, you know, our street where she would have been turning, and she

was supposed to be at work at 7:00 the next morning. And I cannot imagine her going anywhere else because it was getting late and she needed to get

home and get to bed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You live, less than two miles away from the bar that she was last seen at. So what are authorities doing?

I want to go, let me go to Marc Harrold, former police officer for a second. What are your thoughts? You`ve heard some of the facts here.

HARROLD: Well it looks like other than the proximity, authorities haven`t been able to tie these together but it does seem like fairly similar crimes

or at least fairly similar victims. Yes, what are they doing? They`re basically searching what looks to be like large amounts of wooded area and

towns between the two circumstances and try to get a chronology in the direction that she went.

But at this point it doesn`t look like they have a great deal of information after she left the bar to go on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And her vehicle is missing. That`s what I don`t get. Miss Kathy Scales -- first of all I`m so sorry you`re going through this.

I know your daughter has two children, I believe their ages three and six, those are your grand kids. What are you telling them right now?

SCALES: Actually, they have been with their daddy. He decided that last night would probably, you know, need to tell them eventually because Ava

needs to go back to school. She`s wanting to go back to school.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s divorced from the children`s father, is that correct?

SCALES: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But they`re staying with him.

SCALES: They are staying with him. My granddaughter told me today, because I had to go see my grand babies, I hadn`t seen them for five days.

My grand baby told me, she said, "Nene, you need to take me back to my daddy`s because you need to go look for my mommy." She said, "I don`t want

you to have to stay here and play with me, I want you to go look for my mommy."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s so heart breaking. That is so hard breaking.

SCALES: Yes. And she said, search, we went on vacation to Florida over the summer, I guess she remember Alabama. She said, "You need to go to

Alabama. You need to go to Tennessee." And I said "Honey, we will find mommy. We will find her. We will bring her home."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kathy, I`m so sorry you`re going through this.

If you see anything, if you know anything, if you have seen either of these women, immediately call the police. We need to find them. And we need to

find them now.

Nancy Grace is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END