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Jane Velez-Mitchell

Should Officer Wilson Be Charged with Murder?; Will Grand Jury Indict Officer Wilson; Drunk Mom Left Toddler in Car; "Dating Naked"

Aired August 25, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... out of their monumental loss.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That letter has been more closure to me than any kind of closure that the courts could do for me. Just the fact that she knew

where she was going and she had that kind of faith.

JOEY JACKSON, HOST: Tonight, breaking news as thousands gather to celebrate Michael Brown`s life and mourn his death. A grand jury pores

over the evidence from the deadly shooting. Will Officer Darren Wilson, who put at least six bullets into the unarmed teenager, be charged with

Brown`s death?

A pleasant good evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson, filling in for my good friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn`t causing any harm to nobody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got one to the very top of the head, the apex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is all about peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not a peace march anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED). They`ve boarded up everything! Everything is boarded up.

DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS: He put his hands in the air, and he started to get down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s my firstborn son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Peace is being restored in Ferguson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Equal justice for Michael Brown Jr.!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Well over 4,000 people gathered today to say good-bye to 18-year- old Michael Brown. Michael was shot at least six times, including twice in the head, by Officer Darren Wilson, and the public is furious that Michael

was gunned down over two weeks ago while the officer responsible still has not been indicted.

At the funeral today, his family and the community demanded justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is for peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Brown`s blood is crying from the ground, crying for vengeance, crying for justice.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN`S FAMILY: And we declare here today, as we pay our final respects to Michael Brown Jr., that he was not three-

fifths of a citizen. He was an American citizen. And we will not accept three-fifths justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I want to hear from you. Should the grand jury charge Officer Darren Wilson with murder? Please call me at 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-

877-586-7297.

And please feel free to join the conversation by going to our Facebook page. You can join us on Twitter, of course, as well. The Lion`s Den

panel, well, they`re fired up and ready to debate tonight.

But first, before going to the Lion`s Den, as we will do shortly, we have to go out to CNN`s Victor Blackwell.

Now, Victor, you were at the funeral today. You`ve been all over this case from the very beginning. Talk us to about the mood. Talk to us about the

atmosphere. Take us there, Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Joey, it was part Baptist home-going service and really part political rally. Now, for someone who`s never been

to what`s called a home-going service, because they believe in going home to heaven to be with God. But home-going service, there is singing; there

is shouting; there is celebration of life. And that`s what it was billed as, a celebration of life of Michael Brown.

There`s also the political element. There were politicians there from the nation`s capital, from the state capital, local politicians, as well, who

were saying that, if you want this to change, you have to vote. There was one line that really stood out.

One speaker said, "Something is wrong when we have money for military equipment to police our communities but don`t have money for training or

public education." You know, that is, of course, a response to that military-style response that people saw in the first week and the second

week, first from Ferguson Police and then to -- then from the state highway patrol to those protests that were happening there.

But there was a lot of talk about vengeance, as you heard. His blood crying out from the ground or vengeance, crying out for justice. They said

that -- another speaker said that the heavens will shake with shouts for equality, but not today. And that was a common thread through this service

today, not today. This is to be a day of peace.

I actually saw one of the women I saw Friday night at the overnight protest who said that night that she wanted the revolution to start. But today she

sat there quietly; she participated in the service. And then she left quietly.

The people I spoke with afterwards, they were hoping for that night of peace that the family has asked for. But no one is for sure. Of course,

we`ll see once the sun goes down what happens here in Ferguson, Joey.

JACKSON: Absolutely, Victor. Do you get the sense in the community that there was some quiet or calm as a result of the call by Victor -- you know,

by the parents of Michael Brown saying, "Look, we want peace. We want there to be unity. We want there to be harmony today"? Do you get the

sense there is that on the street and what`s to happen tomorrow, Victor?

BLACKWELL: Well, there was an expectation that there would be some protests or demonstrations there in front of the friendly temple missionary

Baptist church where this funeral was held.

I saw maybe one or two people standing there with T-shirts and small 8.5 x 11 signs they printed out from just a basic computer. But they had nothing

to do with Michael Brown. They had to do with resources, with water, with GMOs. I mean, so you know, there are so many people who brought their own

issues to this.

Hopefully, we`ll see overnight that peace that they`re calling for. But there was -- there was peace, there was quiet relatively there at the

ceremony that was held this morning.

JACKSON: And, Victor, briefly, just regarding the takeaway from this, I know that based upon the politicians and the speakers, there was a call

really for a movement. Reverend Al gave some compelling remarks about just the movement for change.

So what`s the takeaway from today? It seemed as though, while it was about Michael Brown, to be sure, it was a lot larger than that with regard to

preserving his legacy.

BLACKWELL: It was larger than Michael Brown, because we saw other people there who had T-shirts and buttons and told stories about someone they`d

lost. And that was the reason for many people to come to the surface.

Look, we don`t know what the takeaway will be. We wondered what the takeaway would be after Trayvon Martin, what the takeaway would be after

Jordan Davis. We wonder what the takeaway will be here...

JACKSON: Sure.

BLACKWELL: ... if these are just well-known people sitting in a room for a day and talking, as they have before. We`ll see if there`s some actual

change, the change into legislation now.

JACKSON: Absolutely. Well, Victor, we appreciate you. We know you`ve been out there working this from the beginning. Stand by, if you can. OK?

BLACKWELL: Sure.

JACKSON: I want to talk about this now. A grand jury started poring over evidence on Wednesday. Now, the panel, of course, will decide whether or

not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown.

And as we know, the 12-person grand jury consists of three African- Americans with the other nine being white. And that`s roughly the racial makeup of St. Louis County itself, which is 24 percent African-American and

68 percent white.

It does not, however, reflect the makeup of Ferguson, Missouri, where there`s 68 percent of the residents that are African-American and only 29

percent are white.

So I want to take this to the Lion`s Den. Is the community going to respect the decision of that grand jury that we know its composition, and

is that decision, if they don`t indict Officer Wilson, will there be more riots in the streets of Ferguson? Loni Coombs, I`m going to go straight

out to you.

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, Joey, we`re hearing from a lot of people already saying, "Look, if we don`t get an indictment, there`s

going to be a very strong response to this."

What community leaders are trying to say is, "We may or may not get an indictment here, but there`s still the federal investigation. Two

investigations are going on here. So it`s not ending just with the indictment.

People also have to remember that, just because the grand jury doesn`t indict, the prosecutor can still decide to file charges in the future. So

it`s not the end-all, be-all.

But I`ll tell you, everyone is saying if there`s no indictment on this, if there`s no movement forward towards arresting this police officer, the

community is saying we will react to that in a very strong way.

JACKSON: Sure. Now Areva Martin, let me go to you on this, and let`s talk a little bit about the composition of the jury. Now we get, and I

understand, they`re not there to decide proof of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They`re there to determine whether there`s probable cause to

believe that a crime was committed and that Darren Wilson committed it. So do you get any idea as to whether or not this jury, regardless of its

composition, could it still be fair and reasonable in the work, in the task at hand?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know, I`m hopeful about that, Joey, although I am very concerned, as many of the residents in Ferguson are. You know,

there was a strong call to remove the prosecuting attorney. There was a belief that he could not be unbiased in his prosecution of this case.

We know that in a typical grand jury, it`s the playground for the prosecutor. They go in. They present the case however they choose to,

whatever witness, whatever evidence. And typically there is an indictment when a prosecutor takes a case to a grand jury.

JACKSON: As they say, Areva -- right? -- I`m sorry. They say you can indict a ham sandwich. Right? I don`t mean to interrupt you. Right?

MARTIN: You can indict a ham sandwich at a grand jury. But not so in this case, because there`s some concern that this prosecutor may be biased. His

father was killed by an African-American. There have been several high- profile cases involving white officers who have shot black men, and he hasn`t prosecuted them.

So I think there`s a real big question about whether this prosecutor has the chops to go in and present a case that will end in an indictment for

this officer.

JACKSON: Areva, let me stick with you for one minute, before I get to Judy Ho, because I want to get her take on state of mind issues and the

psychology of the community. But let me just ask you this. I understand you`re from around that area. What`s your sense?

MARTIN: Yes.

JACKSON: I mean, you`ve practiced there; you`ve done work there. Could he be fair? Could he be objective? Could he be reasonable? And what do the

people think about that?

MARTIN: You know, my legal training, Joey, and all the work I`ve done as a lawyer wants me to believe that this process can be fair.

But I`ve got to tell you, growing up in St. Louis, it is one of the most segregated cities in the country. I think it`s the sixth in the nation.

And as I talk to friends and family members about this case, they`re telling me that there`s a huge backlash amongst whites in the city.

So I`m not so certain that that racial divide that has been so prevalent in this city for decades won`t rear its ugly head and we may see something

very different than what the African-American community expects and hopes from this grand jury.

JACKSON: Well, that`s certainly to be seen, Areva.

Judy Ho, let me go to you on the issue of just -- listen, you`re the clinical psychologist of the bunch. And certainly, regarding people`s

feelings, regarding the mood, regarding state of mind. You know, take us through that today.

Certainly, today, I think, was a day of healing. The parents expressed that there would be calm. I mean, I would suspect that it will be a long

time to come before that community truly heals. And if there`s not an indictment, Judy, what does that then do to the community?

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Really great question, Joey. And so first of all, what`s happening with the community is that there has been a long,

drawn-out process where they were really not in control of the information. They did not know what was really happening.

And we all like to feel like we`re masters of our own universes. We really want to feel like we have control of our environment. So the way that the

information was dished out throughout this case was very confusing to everybody. That gave us a lot of time and this community a lot of time to

form their own opinions, participate in group think...

JACKSON: Sure.

HO: ... and really go with the prevailing emotions of the community and fan that emotion so that it becomes very, very aggressive and violent over

time.

The problem now here is that if we don`t get the indictment, then they will not feel like they`ve gotten the answer or the justice they were looking

for. And I believe that that will lead to more violence, because the problem is, the police force has really not made themselves feel like there

is a common goal in between them and the community. And if they were able to align themselves together, the tension would have resolved somewhat.

But because it still feels like they`re on opposite sides, this is why the depression continues and I believe it will continue if the indictment

doesn`t turn out for them.

JACKSON: Yes, that`s the problem. And Brianne Desellier, let me go to you, last but certainly not least. I mean, you know, the community wants

to heal. I think the parents, you know, they had to grieve today. It`s had to be difficult laying their child to rest.

What do you anticipate? What do you see? Do you think the grand jury can evaluate this case in a way that`s fair, notwithstanding its racial

composition? And in the event that they don`t indict, what are your concerns?

BRIANNE DESELLIER, ATTORNEY: You know, I hope that they can. But I am concerned, because you know, there`s an old saying in the law: bad facts

make bad law. And my concern with this case is that this is going to become basically a paradigm example of that principle, because we have

several equally important considerations that are in direct competition.

We have another police shooting. I think that people are, you know, concerned. I think there`s a general public perception that police

brutality and abuse of power have become kind of recurring themes.

At the same time, we have this police officer on the other side of the case. And we have this fundamental constitutional principle that a person

is innocent until proven guilty. Yet there has somewhat been a trial by the public and by the media.

So I think there`s several issues that are quite concerning to me at this point.

JACKSON: Sure. Absolutely, Brianne. And you know that public discussion is going to continue. It`s going to continue with us, with the residents

of Ferguson. It`s going to continue throughout the country. And tonight, the Lion`s Den, we`re going to continue breaking down this case, because

we`re just getting started.

Feel free to visit us on Facebook. You can go to our Twitter page. You weigh in. We want to hear from you. We`ll be back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUMP: I don`t want to sugar-coat it. Their baby was executed in broad daylight.

JOHNSON: A police officer squad car pulled up. And when he pulled up, these were his exact words. He said, "Get the `F` on the sidewalk." And

he grabbed his arm to pull him into the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allegedly pushed the police officer back into the car, where he physically assaulted the police officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six, that`s at least how many times 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bless his soul. Police shot this boy outside my apartment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: At the funeral today, the focus, of course, was on Michael Brown. But it was also on what charges and what changes need to happen within the

police force and within the African-American community as a whole. What can they do? Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: If you have a bushel of apples, the only thing that messes up good apples is if you don`t take the rotten

apples out of the bushel.

We are not the ones making the cops look bad. It`s the bad apples that you won`t take out of the bushel.

But then let me say this: What does God require? We`ve got to be straight up in our community, too. Some of us act like the definition of blackness

is how low you can go. Now, blackness has never been about being a gangster or thug. Blackness was, no matter how low we was pushed down, we

rose up anyhow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So does Reverend Al Sharpton have a point? Do we need to use Michael Brown`s death as a starting point for change, both within the

community and within the police force? I ask you, Areva Martin. What say you?

MARTIN: You know, Joey, I like Reverend Sharpton, am all about personal accountability, about the community being accountable. But I get very

concerned when I hear those arguments. Because those who are not so concerned about personal accountability and who are more interested in

spewing hate take those arguments to say that African-Americans are more concerned, you know, when a white cop shoots a cop than we are when blacks

kill other blacks.

And they say, "Hey, you African-Americans aren`t all up in arms about the Chicago shootings, because that`s blacks killing blacks."

And I just want to make sure we stay focused on the real issues here. Excessive force by police officers. The two African-Americans who were

killed every week in this country by officers, the disproportionate amount of time that blacks are in the criminal justice system, how they`re treated

in the criminal justice system, that`s what this issue is all about. That`s what this Mike Brown shooting is all about.

Sure, African-Americans have to accept responsibility. Sure, we need to end black-on-black crime. And as an African-American, I am just as

concerned about anyone being shot, whether they`re black, white, red or green.

JACKSON: Sure.

MARTIN: It must all end.

JACKSON: Well-stated, Areva, well-stated. Now I want to get your position on this, and I want you to weigh in on this. All right?

"The New York Times" is defending a piece about Michael Brown`s life that a lot of people were outraged about. Now here`s the part that set people

off. And I`m going to come to you with this, Loni Coombs.

"Michael Brown was no angel, with public records and interviews with family and friends revealing both problems and promise in his young life." Now,

readers railed against the "Times" over the phrase "no angel." In response to the criticism, the public editor called it "a regrettable choice of

words."

Now, Anderson Cooper asked Brown`s parents if they thought their late son was a victim of character assassination in this case. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you feel like some folks have been trying to go after the character of your son?

MICHAEL BROWN SR., FATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN JR.: Yes, sir.

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF MICHAEL BROWN JR.: And they don`t know him.

BROWN: Yes.

MCSPADDEN: They don`t know him. He was peaceful. He was humble. He didn`t ask for that. He didn`t deserve that. Everybody`s got a past. He

was only 18.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So, Loni, if Officer Wilson is put on trial, will blaming the victim be part of the defense? And is Brown`s character relevant in this

particular case? What say you?

COOMBS: Well, look, in any case, what actually happens is the facts and the actions of each person is relevant. What happened in the incident.

But going beyond that, it can be phrased in different ways. I mean, for this article to use the words "no angel," that puts such a negative slant.

All teenagers have their issues. Any parent, like me, like you, Joey, we know that you pretty much say any teenager is no angel, if you want to say

that. They all have their issues as teenagers.

But it depends on the slant you put on it. Depends on the tone and the emphasis you put on it.

I think another reason that a lot of people are getting so upset at where anything comes up where they`re trying to talk about the details about

Michael Brown -- even his own parents said, "Look, you know, he did good things. He did some bad things. He wasn`t perfect." I mean, they`re very

honest, very straightforward. Very truthful about, you know...

JACKSON: Yes, they are.

COOMBS: ... he`s a good kid. He`s a good kid, but he`s a kid. The thing that`s frustrating, I think, to a lot of people is that they`re not hearing

anything about the officer. I mean, there`s no transparency about the officer. And yet there`s so much focus on Michael Brown, the person who`s

dead in this situation. And that is really upsetting.

JACKSON: That`s the problem. And Judy, before I get to you and Brianne, I just want to go to a caller. Because I want you guys to weigh in on

something else, which I`ll get into. But we have a caller from New York, I believe.

CALLER: Hello.

JACKSON: Denise? Denise, is that you?

CALLER: Yes.

JACKSON: Hi, Denise. Welcome to the program.

CALLER: Hi, Joey. How are you?

JACKSON: Good. Thank you.

CALLER: My question is, first of all, I think the prosecutor needs to recuse himself, and I think the police chief should be fired. I don`t

understand how you can trust this prosecutor. The police chief, there`s no transparency with him either.

And I just want to know -- they keep saying the police officer was beaten to a pulp, his eye was knocked out of socket. You clearly see this officer

walking around on this Crenshaw recording. So how could this officer have been beaten into a pulp where you don`t see no EMT? He`s standing there

walking around. But they keep claiming he was beaten unconscious. I don`t understand that.

JACKSON: Denise, thanks for the call. That`s a very good point. So Brianne, to that point and that position, should there be a special

prosecutor here? It seems as though there`s a community that doesn`t have trust. And what about the prosecutor, Brianne, just excusing himself or

recusing himself, based upon public trust and confidence?

DESELLIER: I think absolutely that`s what should be done. Whether or not he can, in fact, be an impartial prosecutor, I think that the public

perception is going to kind of outweigh that here. And I think that, by not recusing himself, he`s sort of -- we`re setting this up for a mistrial

or an appeal down the road.

So I think they should just do the right thing now and bring in a special prosecutor.

JACKSON: Sure. And Judy, just what about that? I mean, isn`t it about what the community -- obviously, it`s about justice for the family and the

community as a whole. But what about the notion and the perception that potentially the prosecutor, Bob McCullough, can`t be fair? Does that not

weigh heavily and wouldn`t it lead to more trust if he removed himself?

HO: Absolutely, Joey. And here`s the problem: because this community has felt like they`ve been in the dark this whole time. There hasn`t been

transparency. And this is just another problem in this long chain of problems they`ve been experiencing.

And just to Loni`s point earlier about the research that actually surrounds this type of a killing. When people are shot, there`s oftentimes a way to

try to explain away the victim by saying that they have character flaws, by saying that there are problems. It actually assuages the guilt of the

community`s consciousness that this happened to a seemingly innocent person.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

HO: So this is another part of that problem that we`re experiencing.

MARTIN: I think, Joey, it`s even more insidious than that.

JACKSON: And we`re going to talk about that, Areva and Lion`s Den, as soon as we come back. A lot more on the death of Michael Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All bullets entered from the front.

JOHNSON: There was blood coming from him. And we took off running.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No gun powder was found on Brown`s body, suggesting he was not shot at close range.

JOHNSON: Once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air. He fired several more shots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the time I come outside, I`m thinking that he`s now hit after I seen the officer shooting at him while he was running away. So

I`m thinking that he`s hit because now he`s turned around like this. He was going down. It didn`t even look like that he was giving up. It just

looked like -- oh, I`m hit. I`m going to down now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So the controversy surrounding the shooting and killing of Michael Brown and whether it was excessive force by police, well it

continues to rage. A stunning new witness has come forward with an explosive account of what he says happened between Officer Darren Wilson

and Michael Brown during that deadly confrontation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the time I get outside, he`s already turned around facing the officer. He`s balled up -- he had his arms like under his

stomach and he was like halfway down like he was going down and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him. How his body is on the ground,

just like with his arms tucked in. That`s how he got shot or whatever. Like I said before, he went down, he was already like this. And he took

like one or two steps going towards the officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: That man is the latest of several witnesses who have come forward to describe the very moment that Officer Wilson shot Michael Brown. But

witnesses` accounts of what happened, well they differ. So as a grand jury decides whether to indict Officer Wilson, how do they process these

different versions of events?

Let`s take it out to the "Lion`s Den". Judy Ho, let me start with you. Different people perceive things in different events differently. How does

this affect the case, Judy?

HO: It affects the case a lot -- Joey. And eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Everybody remembers different things about

incidents. Sometimes the memories are even manufactured. I think a long time ago we thought that memories were constructed the way a videotape, you

just play it back and it`s pretty straightforward.

But that`s not true. Oftentimes we tell ourselves a version of the story and that gets strengthened through our neural pathways. That gets

remembered over and over again. And the questioning that these individuals were subjected to is a huge part of it too. Because people might be asking

leading questions, they might be asking close-ended questions. Were the answers only yes or no?

JACKSON: Absolutely.

HO: And that leads a lot to memory construction also. So there`s going to be a huge problem trying to reconcile who are the quote, unquote "credible

witnesses" and who are not. And it`s not really what they seem all the time -- Joey.

JACKSON: So short thing -- rapid fire.

MARTIN: Joey, I don`t necessarily agree --

JACKSON: Go ahead, Areva. Make it short. Go ahead Areva, I want to get everyone`s point of view.

MARTIN: I think on the critical points, all the witnesses we`ve heard from have been pretty consistent. Mike Brown was not charging the officer.

Mike was in some kind of surrender position or at least making it known that he had no weapon and the officer still fired six times at him. That`s

an important testimony that`s going to come forward. No dispute about that evidence.

JACKSON: Brianne, does it make a difference ultimately in the case, yes or no, conflicting witnesses?

DESELLIER: I think so. I think it makes a big difference. It comes down to an issue of witness credibility. That`s a job for the grand jury. They

need to weigh the testimony and determine who`s more credible.

JACKSON: Loni Coombs, do you agree?

COOMBS: Joey it`s even more important and harder than that because credibility comes down to if you think they`re telling the truth. A lot of

these witnesses may firmly believe what they`re saying is true and it`s what they heard and they took in. But it can still be faulty and they can

have glitches, holes in their memory and they fill in with what they`ve heard other witnesses say. Other witnesses they`re hearing them on TV.

They might be picking up their story not intentionally but adding to their own.

They`ve got to look at the forensic evidence, Joey. The forensic evidence is what it is. And then they have to see how the witnesses are consistent

with the forensic evidence.

JACKSON: All is going to be important. The eyewitnesses, the forensic evidence, the autopsy report, any toxicology report. There`s a lot to

examine in this case.

"Lion`s Den" stays with us -- great job by our panel.

But up next, did a mom`s night of heavy drinking put her child in grave danger? Stay with us and you decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is almost inconceivable that this mom, Kelsey James, was so drunk when she got to City Sports Bar in Bristol, she passed

out, leaving her defenseless two-year-old baby girl in a parked car outside. But police say that`s exactly what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barely talking, barely walking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police were called around midnight and say they found the 22-year-old drunk and passed out at the bar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was very incoherent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She started asking where her baby girl was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that she drove here and how she even drove here amazes me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t imagine actually leaving a two-year-old in the car overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sobering details. She had left her baby girl in the parking lot of the bar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Shocking. Tonight, cops say an intoxicated and incapacitated mom stumbled into a Connecticut bar just before midnight and she passed out.

But that`s not the worst part of the story.

Kelsey James was then brought to a local hospital and when she finally snapped out of it more than five hours later, yes, that`s about 5:00 a.m.,

she asked, where`s my two-year-old daughter? That`s when police say they realized the toddler was left alone inside the car in the bar parking lot

for hours in the middle of the night.

22-year-old Kelsey James has been charged with risk of injury to a minor as well as leaving an unsupervised child in a car. Her two-year-old is

reportedly in the care of relatives after she was briefly taken into custody by child welfare.

So out to my "Lion`s Den" about this one. As we all know, there are three ways the justice system deals with everyone -- there`s punishment, there`s

deterrence and there`s rehabilitation. So I ask you, Judy Ho, what is going to be the best thing to do with this mom going forward?

HO: Well Joey, lots of parents make mistakes. And our system really tries to reunify families whenever possible. So even though what this mom did

was absolutely egregious, it actually happens a lot more than you actually realize. It shows that in the research. And anecdotally I`ve heard that

from my clients that as children they were left while their parents went drinking in the bar.

So I believe the main course is rehabilitation here. It`s to teach parenting skills. This young mom has no idea what she`s doing as a parent

and even probably isn`t very motivated to learn. We need to have a way to stick on her and make sure she goes through that parent training program.

JACKSON: We certainly do. So Brianne, what about that? Should we stick her in jail, though? I get Judy`s point -- right. You know what -- we

need to rehabilitate her and work with her, make her a better mom. What about the punishment of the issue? What do you think?

DESELLIER: I get it. I get it. But I think we need a combination because to some extent, any sort of punishment is going to serve as a deterrent to

sort of send a message to other people who might be thinking or might do something similar.

JACKSON: Felicia in Texas, you`re on the phone. You have a lot to say about this one. Go ahead -- Felicia.

FELICIA, TEXAS (via telephone): Yes, sir. This is my thing. I hear what you`re saying about they should be rehabilitated. Ok, what about those

parents that have already left their children in the car and their children have already died in the car? Or what about those parents that -- of,

first of all she`s 21 years old. She`s not a kid. She`s not a two-year- old. She`s not 12. And I`m sure she`s had parents, or watched TV to know that she`s not the only -- kids are dying every day. Parents are leaving

their kids in a car.

There`s no excuse for what she`s done. No, there`s no rehabilitation. She needs to go to jail.

JACKSON: Ok. That`s a point well taken. Now, a woman who works at the bar says this. She says it`s the saddest thing that she`s ever seen. Take

a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barely talking, barely walking. You could clearly tell she was intoxicated. The fact that she drove here and how she even

drove here amazes me; her eyes were barely even open.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now Kelsey James is charged with risk of injury to a minor as well as leaving an unsupervised child in a car. Is it worth also pursuing

a DWI charge? What say you, Loni Coombs?

COOMBS: Absolutely if they can. I mean somebody had to have witnessed her driving the car so they can prove the case. But look, that`s one of the

most serious things here is that she put that little two-year-old in the car, strapped her in the car seat -- at least she used the car seat -- and

then drove with her in a condition where the bartender said I can`t even believe she was able to walk much less drive. It`s an extremely dangerous

thing.

There needs to be punishment and there needs to be rehabilitation because she`s still going to be a parent. For as long as that child is growing up,

she`s still going to be a parent. So for everyone`s sake, she needs to be taught how to be a better parent. But there always has to be that

punishment deterrent, otherwise where`s the incentive for her to really take those parenting classes to heart?

JACKSON: Absolutely.

Now Areva, I want you to weigh in on this but hold on one second. I want you to listen to this. People at the bar say this mom was so drunk that

she couldn`t even find her own car. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apparently trying to talk to her, she`s very incoherent. She attempted to break into a car that was not hers. And at

that time, we called the police fearing for her safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Areva, what about the safety of her child? The two-year-old was taken to a local hospital where she was evaluated. She`s fine, thankfully

and is now reportedly with a relative, as we mentioned. But should this 22-year-old mom -- should she have supervised visits, Areva. Should she

lose custody, or you know what -- should she just get her child back? What say you?

MARTIN: Joey, I am so tired of these cases. Who`s speaking out on behalf of these kids? These parents need a very, very strong message sent to

them. If you get in a car drunk, drive your child, leave your child overnight for five hours, you`re going to jail and you`re going to jail for

a long time.

How many of these cases do we have to look at, talk about, feel sorry for these parents? I feel sorry for the kid. No sympathy for this mom

whatsoever.

JACKSON: You know Areva, it`s a point well made. And if you think about what could have happened -- in this instance, the child was fine. But

we`ve heard about these hot car deaths. We`ve heard about so much else, so you`re right to be impassioned about this.

And I want the "Lion`s Den" to weight on this as well. Because the accused mom, the neighbor was shocked to hear about her arrest but others say that

what she allegedly did, well, it was a disgrace. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kelsey is a wonderful young girl. Has a baby. She`s very responsible. The family is wonderful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowingly coming to a bar and drinking and driving with your child in the car is horrifying. And then to just leave them in

the car -- it`s unthinkable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t imagine actually leaving a two-year-old in the car overnight. It`s just unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So, Brianne, let me go to you. And you know what -- Areva raises an impassioned point. Who is defending and representing the children? But

if you think about it, does the mom deserve a felony record and should she go throughout her life and how would that impact her ability to raise a

child, Brianne, if she did get a felony record by virtue of being convicted?

DESELLIER: You know, it`s a point well made. But you know, these cases make me absolutely insane because it`s just inconceivable to me. You know,

as lawyers, we need to try to be empathetic and understand why people do things that we might not understand. But I struggle with these cases

because I do not get it.

And I question whether or not she can be rehabilitated. I think jail for a very long time, I agree, is the right answer here.

JACKSON: Let`s hope she can be rehabilitated. You know what -- I think Judy Ho mentioned that she potentially could be. Let`s work with her.

Let`s give her the parenting classes that she deserves.

"Lion`s Den" you`re going to stay put because you know what -- coming up, when does naked really mean naked? A woman who agreed to bare all on a

reality show now says her private parts, well they should have been kept private.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a completely different type of dating, one that removes barriers and allows you to be your true self from day one.

This is "Dating Naked".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you`re looking for true love, follow your heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m here for love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open your mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m willing to explore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And drop your pants.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t just look at my ass.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Usually it takes me three or four dates to see my girl naked. It`s a (inaudible) concept.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Dating Naked".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: What`s next? The controversial new reality show sparks a lawsuit. The show which airs on VH1 is called "Dating Naked" and on it,

the contestants well, they do exactly that. But one participant named Jesse Nizewitz (ph) is upset that she was shown a little too naked.

When the scene originally aired on VH1, it contained an unblurred shot. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was on the wrestling team, not the football team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seems like she`s got a good personality. Likes to joke around. Seems like she`s down for anything

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, we blurred the now infamous shot, of course. But it was screen-grabbed and posted all over the Internet. So Jesse claims she`s

emotionally traumatized and as a result she`s is suing Viacom and two production companies for a whopping $10 million.

Straight out to entertainment correspondent Kendra G; what do you think -- Kendra? Is the lawsuit going to be successful?

KENDRA G, ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Of course not. First and foremost, I didn`t see that many black people on the show because we don`t do things

like this. I want to point that out real quick. She needs to go have a drink and call it (inaudible). Don`t go on a dating show called "Naked" if

you don`t want to be on TV dating naked. What are you talking about?

JACKSON: Absolutely, it boggles the mind. Listen. Jesse as we know, she`s suing for $10 million, she`s citing emotional distress. But she

seemed pretty comfortable filming the show in the nude. Take a look at this clip from VH1.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I`m Pete.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I`m Jesse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice to meet you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice to meet you too.

My first impression is he`s really (inaudible) and he`s really cute. He is well-endowed, which is nice to know beforehand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You a little uncomfortable like this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m fine. How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m extremely comfortable in my own skin. Honestly being naked to me really means absolutely nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Yikes. Could you imagine? In a statement, Jesse said, and I quote, "Although I went on the show knowing that I would be nude while

taping it, I was told that my private parts would be blurred for TV. Obviously I did not expect the world to see my private parts. This is not

what I anticipated or what any other contestants on the show anticipated."

Now, it`s interesting to me that she says, I was told, as if there`s some sort of verbal contract. I imagine through this lawsuit, it will reveal

whether there was a written contract dealing with the issue of nudity. And if so, I would imagine that she would have signed away a waiver and a

release to sign away those rights. Loni -- you with me?

COOMBS: Well, I`ll tell you, Joey, in her lawsuit, it says in the contract they said that the genitals would be blurred out. I have to tell you, I

have no sympathy for this woman whosoever about being on this reality show and having private parts -- and then I saw the photo. I have to tell you,

it is --

JACKSON: The unblurred photo, is that right?

COOMBS: The unblurred photo.

JACKSON: The one we could not show on TV?

COOMBS: Exactly. And I wouldn`t recommend it either. I wouldn`t recommend anyone else for this experience. It was medically graphic. And

now I can understand why she feels the way she does.

And honestly, somebody must have done that on purpose, intentionally. It was so obvious. Somebody should be punished for it, I think. Not $10

million worth but if they --

(CROSSTALK)

COOMBS: -- this was -- this wasn`t like, you know, a bun here or there or even a nipple. It was everything.

JACKSON: So Kendra, let me ask you. I mean what if they did it maliciously? What if in the even, right the contract Loni points out, it

says no showing the genitals or any area. But what if they did it and it was just an oops, isn`t she traumatized as a result of this? What about

her life? What about her future -- Kendra G? What about her dates? Are they going to think differently of her?

G: Well, they should think differently of her because she wasn`t that groomed down there. Can we bring that up for a second? I mean I`m the one

that should be suing Viacom --

JACKSON: Behave yourself.

G: -- for having to see that freaking -- she should have been more groomed. That`s why she`s so upset. I`m traumatized. I should sue.

JACKSON: Yikes. Now, listen to this, the aftermath upset her. But Jesse`s date actually seemed -- you know what, it went pretty well. Watch

this from VH1`S "Dating Naked".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s your choice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My choice was Jesse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jesse, out of all three ladies, Kegan has chosen you, how do you feel about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not surprised. We got along really well. He`s also younger than me. That was the first so --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want to continue dating?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean I would see Kegan again. I wouldn`t be opposed to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now Jesse`s upset because she claimed that the producers were egging her on during the infamous naked wrestling match.

So the big question is, do you think producers coerced these people into being naked and getting naked under false pretenses? What say you, Loni?

COOMBS: I think they know they`re getting naked. I don`t think they`re being coerced. I don`t think they`re being manipulated. They said, ok. I

mean the name of the show is "Dating Naked".

G: Exactly.

COOMBS: So I think they know very well what they`re getting into. And they`re admitting and accepting all of the -- everything that goes with it.

JACKSON: And, Kendra, therein lies the problem and what a fitting way to end the show. Let`s just remember, keep our clothes on.

Thanks for your help. Be happy and healthy. Appreciate you joining us -- guests.

And you know what? Nancy Grace well, she`s coming up next.

Thanks so much for joining us. Have a great night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END