Return to Transcripts main page

Jane Velez-Mitchell

Man Suspected of Killing Ex and Her New Lover; Racial Profiling?; Save the Wolves!

Aired September 11, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to change their protocol on how to safeguard classified information.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, a handsome young limelight-loving man suspected of brutally murdering his gorgeous ex-girlfriend, her new

boyfriend and both of her parents, piling their four dead bodies one on top of the other before fleeing with a child he says is his.

Now, he`s talking to the media behind bars, insisting he`s an innocent man. Is this good-looking 28-year-old, who clearly hams it up for the camera,

the new male version of Jodi Arias?

The similarities are eerie. Florida cops say Adam Matos is the only suspect in this murder mystery. But Adam insists he`s not a killer,

pointing to a mystery female stalker. Is Adam just a scorned murderous ex, or could there be a killer on the loose?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. Thanks for joining me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you kill those four people?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are four bodies: two adult males, two adult females. We need the public`s assistance immediately.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four people dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t kill them?

ADAM MATOS, ACCUSED OF MURDER: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who did?

MATOS: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were numerous bodies piled up on each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with the family?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Matos has not been charged with murder yet. He`s in jail tonight on a separate assault charge.

Back on August 28, his ex-girlfriend, Megan Brown, said Adam put a knife to her throat and threatened her life. But he fled the scene before cops

showed up.

A week later during a wellness check, cops discovered this hideous scene: Megan`s bloodied body dumped in an open field less than a mile from her

home, stacked in a pile with the dead bodies of her new boyfriend, her mom, her dad. Cops launched a massive manhunt and found Adam just 12 hours

later, hiding out in a luxury Tampa-area hotel with a child who`s four years old, and he claims that`s his son with Megan.

Cops say Adam is the only suspect in this gruesome quadruple murder mystery, but in a chilling jailhouse interview with the "Tampa Bay Times,"

Adam proclaims his innocence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATOS: I`m a nice guy. Anybody that knows me, I`m easy to get along with. I don`t start fights, you know. Pretty much, you know, a cool person to

get along with.

And everybody`s looking at me like, you know, I did it, you know. Nothing I can say to change anybody`s mind. I can say I`m innocent. I can say I

didn`t do it. But is anybody really going to believe me? You know, all the fingers point to me, so...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this the male version of Jodi Arias? Join the conversation on my Facebook page or go to Twitter, @JVM.

Our "Lion`s Den" debate panel is fired up. They`re angry tonight. But first to Alex Orlando, reporter for "The Tampa Bay Times."

Alex, tell us about your extraordinary jailhouse interview with this man suspected of four -- four -- murders!

ALEX ORLANDO, REPORTER, "TAMPA BAY TIMES" (via phone): Well, you know, Adam was -- as you can see in the video, he was despondent. His responses

were measured. You could tell he was thinking before he spoke.

Some of the questions I asked him, he was evasive in his responses. I think he knows how deputies are saying this looks. There were a few holes

in his story line.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you think? Holes the size of a sinkhole. First of all, if he didn`t do it, why did he flee with the child that he says he had

with Megan and why was he found holed up in a Tampa hotel. Did you ask him that?

ORLANDO: I did. And he didn`t have an answer for me. One of the things that we were really looking for, and this was some answers to this gap of

information that`s about a week from August 28, when he fled the home to September 5, when a SWAT team found him at the Florida Palace Hotel in

Tampa, which is some 45 miles south of the home. And every time I approached that time period in my questioning he just -- he shut down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He went into a fog, right?

ORLANDO: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A fog. Exactly. Who does that remind you of? We`re going to get to the Jodi Arias similarities in a second.

Just one week before the bodies were found, cops say Megan Brown called them to report Adam had threatened her with a knife, but he was nowhere to

be found when cops got there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff`s office is here August 28th for a domestic incident. While we`re investigating it, we were looking for Adam Matos.

We could not find him at that time. Deputies were consistently coming out here looking. And unfortunately, this morning we got a call around 10 a.m.

for a welfare check on the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Matos is being held on an assault charge for that incident. He is not yet charged with the four murders. But Simone Bienne,

behavior expert, boy, do we need you. Check out this rap sheet, OK, reported by the "Morning Call." It`s long. But what sticks out to me is

his arrest on simple assault and trespassing for an incident years ago where he allegedly broke into the apartment of an ex-girlfriend. When she

arrived home with a man he allegedly attacked that guy. Can you say pattern?

SIMONE BIENNE, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, I think so. Look, what we know by him is that he thinks he`s above the law. That is evident even though he

hasn`t been charge for this crime yet.

But we also know that, if somebody does that to another person, to his ex- girlfriend like he did, then this is somebody who is obsessed, who is pathologically jealous, who is, you know, into power and control. And

potentially, look, if he is charged and if he is found guilty, then the utter destruction of somebody who he loves out in the world living her

life, that is better than seeing her humiliate him and shame him, which is how he will see it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`re going to talk about how that is so similar to Jodi Arias in a second. What, Brian Claypool, criminal defense attorney?

BRIAN CLAYPOOL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jane, since when does trespassing result in a quadruple murderer? There really is no past

history here that supports the proposition that Matt [SIC] Matos is a mass murderer. A simple assault is not going to do it. Trespassing`s not going

to do it.

And again, before we jump to a conclusion here, let`s back up, take a deep breath and show me where there is physical or forensic evidence that links

this guy to the four murders.

Jane, why hasn`t he been arrested yet if this is a slam-dunk? And also, what was the cause of death? Was it a gun? Was it a knife? If it was a

knife, wouldn`t this guy have scratches and cuts all over his body?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me tell you something.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... echoing. Go ahead. But Chris is saying if it`s so simple, why can`t police prove it? Why hasn`t he been arrested on the four

murders.

CLAYPOOL: Bingo.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone Bienne, go ahead.

BIENNE: I was just going to say the reason the police haven`t given us information on how these four innocent people died, is they are trying to

get evidence, and they have got Adam Matos where they want him, behind bars.

Interesting that Brian`s talking about, "Oh, let`s all take a deep breath here." Yes, let`s take a deep breath, like Adam Matos did, in his police

interview. At the time, when he said, "Oh, you know, all the fingers are pointing to me," do you know what the body language of a deep breath like

that is? It means anger and fear. And he is angry that people are basically, I think, seeing through him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Loni Coombs. Go ahead.

CLAYPOOL: It`s -- Simone, maybe the police department should take a deep breath here and not be irresponsible and say the only suspect is Matos.

Shouldn`t there be another suspect, as well, an alleged stalker, where there was a documented report of a stalker threatening Megan Brown? So

that`s irresponsible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, in fact, we have information on that. Adam says he didn`t kill his ex-girlfriend, her new boyfriend and mom and dad. He

instead points the finger at somebody else, the alleged stalker. Listen to this from "The Tampa Bay Times."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATOS: There was a woman that kept calling and showing up around the house. I don`t know what her name is or who she is, but there was like

threats being made from this lady, like letters being sent, like, back and forth. I guess she left letters or something like that at Megan`s job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, this mystery stalker is allegedly somebody who once dated Megan`s new boyfriend, the guy who was

murdered along with Megan and her parents. And the "Tampa Bay Times" says this boyfriend filed a domestic violence injunction against this alleged

stalker woman, accusing her of hacking into his bank accounts, e-mails and cell phones. So is that a potential suspect?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. Yes, it is, Jane. And that`s why I`m glad that the police are not jumping in and filing charges yet.

Look, there`s a lot of red flags around this guy that`s in custody. We all see that; we all see the pattern. We all know that he was the one that was

in the relationship and that the most dangerous time is when the relationship breaks up, which is what was going on. She not only had

broken up with him but had moved on to another guy.

However, he is bringing up this stalker woman, and it`s not a phantom suspect. There`s a real person out there who has a history with the new

boyfriend, a stalking relationship with this new boyfriend and also started harassing Megan, the victim in this case.

So it is definitely someone the police need to investigate very carefully. Even if it`s not the person they end up arresting, when it goes to trial,

as we well know, the defense will raise this stalker as a potential other defendant, and the jury will want to say, "Well, the police, did they look

at this other person?" If they didn`t, it`s reasonable doubt. So look at them now; look at both suspects very carefully before you make an arrest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And look at the victim. Look at this beautiful woman who was viciously murdered, along with her mom and dad and her new boyfriend.

And I want to go back to Simone Bienne, behavior expert. The fact that the suspect apparently knew about this stalker, would that perhaps embolden him

if, indeed, he did this to go and slaughter the woman who rejected him, knowing that, oh, she also has a stalker. Oh, I can blame it on the

stalker?

BIENNE: Yes, I mean, it`s a very convenient alibi, isn`t it? Because my hunch is he knew about, you know, the voice mails. But by the way, police

are going to be able to track them.

My hunch is he knew a lot of the information because what we are hearing about this stalker was around for quite some time. So yes, it is very

convenient for Adam Matos to say, "Oh, but it`s not me."

Let me ask, I mean, from what I`ve read about this alleged stalker, she weighs hardly anything. How could she move four bodies? How could she

kill four people? I mean, I don`t know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s 110 pounds soaking wet, according to a friend, OK. So they`re saying, oh, yes, she killed four people and she piled them one

on top of the other, including two full-grown men? Are you kidding me?

On the other side, this suspect`s eerie parallels with Jodi Arias, and I`m not just talking about the fact that they both love to give jailhouse

interviews. Stay right there. And we`re taking your comments on Facebook and Twitter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you kill those four people?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you take Tristan?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you worried about your son? Did you think anything would happen to him if you weren`t there? What were you trying to

do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As for the case of Adam Matos, he is where he should be, in handcuffs right now. He is our suspect for the homicide of four

individuals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Matos, a handsome 28-year-old who works at a restaurant, or at least did before he was arrested, he is behind bars

tonight. He is the only suspect in the vicious, gruesome hideous murders of his ex-girlfriend, with whom he claims he has a child, a four-year-old

son; her new boyfriend and her mom and dad, all four bodies found piled on top of one another.

But he claims, "Oh, there was a stalker that my ex-girlfriend had, and she`s the one who did it." And he`s giving jailhouse interviews. Right

here he says, "I don`t want to talk." But then he proceeds to stand around and talk to the reporters for quite a while.

Alex Orlando with "The Tampa Bay Times," why is it that we don`t know how these four died? That would certainly give us an indication of whether a

woman, the alleged stalker, mystery stalker could have done it or whether it would have required a guy.

ORLANDO: Well, I talked to the Pasco County Sheriff`s Office today, and they said that they`re still in the middle of the investigation. One of

the things that they`re waiting on is the medical examiner`s report to come in. Now there`s no timeline on when that will be finished, because...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What were the condition of the bodies?

ORLANDO: The bodies were badly decomposed. You know, it`s hot down here. It rains here almost every day. The bodies were exposed to that for an

unknown amount of time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

So Brian Claypool, criminal defense attorney, could that help him? By the time they got to the bodies, they`re so badly decomposed they can`t even

tell how they died, whether they were shot or stabbed or whatever, until this autopsy comes out.

CLAYPOOL: Yes, Jane, it could help him. Because for example, when did these murders take place? We know he left. He last saw, I think, Megan on

August 28. What if you can`t conclusively determine that these four folks were killed on August 28 or shortly thereafter? He`s gone, so how can you

pin the murder on him?

And then, if there`s decomposition with the bodies and you get into mechanism of death, what if the medical examiner can`t determine that, and

it`s going to be hard to link him to the murders.

But more importantly, I -- I don`t really buy the argument by the medical examiner that "we don`t have the autopsy done." I mean, autopsies are

completely very quickly, Jane, and I don`t see toxicology results being a real important factor here on the four victims. So the medical examiner

knows how these folks were killed. Why aren`t they telling us?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Loni -- Loni, you`re a former prosecutor. Could they be having problems with this case? Is that one reason that they`re holding

him on, essentially, a much lesser charge?

COOMBS: Well, it`s going to take some investigation, Jane. I mean, you`ve got four decomposed bodies, so it`s going to take some time to

figure out the mechanism of death. They`re going to search for any trace evidence that`s still there.

We don`t know if that`s the location where the bodies were killed or if they were killed somewhere else and hauled there. Then they have to find

out, where were they actually killed? Then they have to start linking this suspect to those four people. Do they have a connection? Were they seen

together? Where could they have been together?

So it`s not a slam-dunk case; it`s going to take a lot of time just piecing it all together. The timeline, the physical evidence. We`ve got the

motive. We`ve got all of that. But there`s a lot of pieces that need to be put together before there`s enough evidence to actually arrest him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This case gave me chills, because the second I started hearing about this guy, I said, who does he remind me of? Who does he

remind me of? Oh, yes, the woman I wrote a book about, Jodi Aria. Is this guy taking a page out of the Jodi Arias playbook? OK. One thing`s for

sure: just like Jodi, he`s not camera-shy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: I know I`m innocent. God knows I`m innocent. Travis knows I`m innocent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you kill those four people?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you take Tristan? Is this all a big misunderstanding?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you do this?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about are you -- what about your son, what are your concerns about him right now?

MATOS: I love my son, and I hope that he`s safe right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You see any similarities there, Simone Bienne, behavior expert, because I do.

BIENNE: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I mean, yes. Charming and charismatic, as you said earlier, Jane.

And I mean, I hate to say, this guy is absolutely gorgeous looking. So will the jury be swayed by that? I mean, I don`t want to charge him

already.

But yes, absolutely, their obsessive need to control, the triggering, the potential borderline-esque, you know, where can`t control the rage. We do

know that he is rageful. We do know that Megan made a call to the police, saying that he was waving a knife at her throat. So, yes, I mean, they

both like knives.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And not only that, but they both pointed the finger at somebody else. Remember, Jodi said, "Oh, well, Travis had a roommate

who was really a thuggish guy. You should take a look at him." He`s pointing the finger at a, quote-unquote, alleged stalker, a female.

Not only that, Brian Claypool, criminal defense attorney, the parallels are eerie. Not just the fact that they`re both good-looking and they like to

give on-camera interviews and they speak with a lot of assurance, even though they`re in deep doo-doo. They both work at restaurants. That`s

another thing. It`s really weird. I mean, it`s just quite a bizarre parallel.

CLAYPOOL: Well, we know one thing, Jane, that Simone likes men with beards, because she called this guy gorgeous, so we know that. So

hopefully, we don`t get a lot of jurors on the panel that mirror Simone`s sentiments.

But anyway, putting that aside, I mean, I don`t really see all the similarities you`re saying, Jane. I mean, he`s saying initially, "Look, I

don`t want to talk about it. I don`t want to talk about it. I don`t want to talk about it. I love my son."

Secondly, he`s adamantly -- he is adamantly saying, though, that "I didn`t do this." Now Jodi started doing that, but then she changed, remember, and

said, "OK, I admit doing this." I haven`t heard Matos yet say, "I admitted doing it and, gee, I had a mental health component to it."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The only reason that she changed her story is that they confronted her with time-stamped photos of her naked and in the shower

taking photos of Travis and the inadvertent photos of the murder in progress. That`s the only reason she said, "Oh, first, I was there but two

ninjas did it" and then she said, after two years of thinking about it behind bars, it was self-defense.

COOMBS: Right. Absolutely. Let`s give Adam Matos two years behind bars and see what he says. But to one thing Brian said sort of jokingly: It`s a

very serious concern for prosecutors when you have a really good-looking defendant. You do have to worry about jurors being swayed by that.

Let`s be honest: In our society people assume certain things about good- looking people, that they can`t do bad things. So you have to be careful about that when you`re picking your jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It sure is a factor. I don`t like to think it is. But I`ve seen it time after time after time. Look at Casey Anthony.

Stay right there. On the other side, will the 4-year-old boy who was found with this guy, and this guy says this is his son, will he become the key

witness against his purported dad? Next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATOS: I could say like I said, I could say I didn`t do it, but is anybody really going to believe me? You know, all the fingers point to me. So...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with the family?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where were you trying to go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t kill anyone?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn`t kill them?

MATOS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who did?

MATOS: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why were you running away?

MATOS: I don`t have anything to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where were you trying to go?

MATOS: No more questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us where you were going?

MATOS: Can`t tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why was he running away? He claims he didn`t do it. But when cops found the four dead bodies -- his ex-girlfriend, her new

boyfriend and her mom and dad -- they immediately launched a hunt for this guy, the ex-boyfriend, who Megan said had threatened her with a knife just

a few days earlier.

They found him in a luxury hotel about 45 minutes away, in a Tampa hotel room with a 4-year-old boy. He says that boy is his son with the woman

that was murdered, Megan.

Now I want to go to Loni Coombs, former prosecutor. This is a special needs child who happens to be -- suffered -- had some form of autism. I

don`t know -- all I know he`s special needs and has some form of autism. But he`s four years old. He was with the dad. Could he become the key

witness against this man who says, "This is my son," his father?

COOMBS: He could very well become an important witness, depending on his capability to communicate clearly and articulate what he`s thinking.

But I`ve prosecuted murder cases. I did one in particular where a father killed his soon-to-be-ex-wife, and I put on their 5-year-old and 7-year-old

children, who were 3 and 5 at the time he murdered their mother. And they were very effective witnesses in front of a jury.

But you have to interview these witnesses very carefully. You have to use child experts so it can be done without contamination, without leading them

so that their testimony is considered to be accurate and honest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I will predict right now you`re going to hear more from this guy. He likes the camera, OK? We`re going to stay on top of

this.

On the other side, a story that has absolutely exploded online. An African dad of four tased by police in front of his kids, apparently. We will show

you on video, did cops need to do that or was it racial profiling and brutality? The naked truth, next. You decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a sign that says this is a private area, you can`t sit here? Therefore you cannot tell me I can`t sit there if I`m not

doing anything wrong. What`s going on, brother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got to go get my kids now. Please don`t touch me. Please don`t touch me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to go to jail, then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, wait. I`m not doing anything wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In tonight`s "Naked Truth," we have got another caught on tape case of alleged racial profiling. We will show you the tape right

now, you decide. This father of four tapes his heated confrontation with cops. This video goes wildly viral. Almost 1.3 million views. Chris

Lalley (ph), who is African-American, claims he was harassed by white cops as he waited in a Minnesota public skyway in January to pick up his kids

from daycare. Things got ugly fast after he refused to leave this public area or give officers his name. Look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s your business in here right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to find out who you are and what your problem is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no problem, that`s the thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So talk to me. Let me know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And let you know -- why do I have to let you know who I am to -- who I am isn`t the problem.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because that`s what the police do when they get called--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I know my rights first off. Secondly, I don`t have to let you know who I am if I haven`t broken any laws. Like I told

him, I`m going to New Horizons to pick up my kids at 10:00. I was sitting there for 10 minutes. Like not before he walked up to me or anything. He

walked up to me a minute after and got irate with me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So first off, that`s a public area. And if there`s no sign that doesn`t say this is a private area, you can`t sit here, no one

can tell me I can`t sit here. If that`s the case, I can`t sit here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The problem was--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem is I`m black. That`s the problem. No, it really is. I didn`t do anything wrong. I`m not sitting there with a group

of people. I`m sitting there by myself. By myself, not causing a problem with anyone. There isn`t a sign that says this isn`t a private area, you

can`t sit here, therefore you cannot tell me I can`t sit there if I`m not doing anything wrong. What`s going on, brother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got to go get my kids. Please don`t touch me. Please don`t touch me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to go to jail then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, wait, I`m not doing anything wrong. Can you please -- no, come on brother --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not here to argue. I`m not your brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is assault.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not here to argue with you. Put your hands behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, can you please not do this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t do anything wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. Really? I have got to go get my kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands behind your back, otherwise it will get ugly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you need from me?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I told you what I wanted initially.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven`t done anything wrong. Please, no, don`t do this. Put your hands behind your back.

Can somebody help me? That`s my kids right there!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It gets worse. It appears his poor children witnessed all of that. Lalley was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct,

obstruction of the legal process. All the charges later dismissed. Did he do anything to warrant being tased and arrested? Do you have to give your

name to police when they ask for it? The ACLU says no, not if you`re doing anything legal -- if you`re not doing something illegal. Let`s go out to

our naked truth debate panel. Clay Cane, entertainment editor, BET. Should the cops have handled this differently? Was this racial profiling?

In your opinion, was it is police brutality?

CLAY CANE, ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR, BET.COM: Absolutely it was racial profiling. I want to give kudos to this young man for handling himself in

such a respectful way, knowing his rights. What`s really sad to me, Jane, today is the anniversary of 9/11, a day where Americans united and we saw

the resiliency of America. Here we have an American citizen who is being treated like a terrorist, not a father, not an American, but a terrorist.

You can`t even walk in a public area and not be harassed by the police. It is the shame and stain of America that we are not dealing with race, with

law enforcement, with our cops in a constructive way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Claypool, he makes a point, the ACLU says if you haven`t broken the law, we`re not required. It`s not like we live in a

totalitarian society where police can say, give us your papers. Why didn`t they handle it that way? Why didn`t they say, hey, somebody complained

about you, just give me an idea of what you were doing in a way that might have given him the opportunity to tell his side of the story.

CLAYPOOL: Well, Jane, I have a different view of the impact of 9/11. It`s ironic we`re talking about this story on 9/11. Here`s why. We live in a

different country now. We live in a different culture of violence and potential for mass terror. There are people in our own United States who

could be participants in carrying out mass terror.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you agree this guy could be a terrorist? He`s sitting in a public--

CLAYPOOL: Let me finish, though, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I worked in Minneapolis for two years. Do you know how cold it gets in the winter? You cannot wait outside. It was minus 8

degrees that day, the day he was stopped. He could not wait for his kids outside. Go ahead.

CLAYPOOL: Let me get to the heart of this. I have a unique perspective on this because over the past decade, I have represented families in over 12

cases where young men like this have either been seriously injured or killed by law enforcement, Jane. I will tell you flat out that one common

thread that occurred in all those cases was the victim did not comply with the police officer`s command. And that`s what led to all those 12 cases

that I was on. Here in this instance --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

CLAYPOOL: Jane, all he had to do here was tell that female officer, who by the way I thought was very polite. She just came up and said, hey, look,

we have a problem, tell me about what happened, tell me your name.

CANE: He was polite as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: (inaudible), respond.

CANE: Chris was polite as well, Brian. And Brian, last time we were on air together, you said the same thing, times are different. Times are

different. We are safer than we`ve ever been, Brian. Every stat tells us that. We`re safer than we`ve ever been. The idea that because times are

different, it`s post 9/11, we need more aggressive police activity, it`s wrong. We need more community policing. You as a civil rights attorney, I

am just mortified that you continue to try to downplay race when it comes to racial profiling. Are we lying?

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say this. Why didn`t the police investigate the validity of the complaint? He`s sitting in a public skywalk. Again, it`s

probably 8 degrees below zero. That was the low that day. He can`t wait outside for his kids. He`s sitting in what amounts to a sidewalk indoors.

They say you have no right to be there, leave. But he does have a right to be there. Why didn`t the cops check that out before they go up to him and

say, what`s your name?

COOMBS: I agree with you 100 percent. He was right sitting in a public place. The fact the security guard didn`t want him there and saying it was

a private place -- the police officers -- it was a simple question find out if it`s a public place or a private place. This guy was not running away,

he said where he was going, he was very polite. And I do agree that the female officer seemed to be somewhat cooperative. She wasn`t asking the

right questions, but she was following him along and trying to get more information.

I do think this was way over-response by the officers, especially when the male officer, the bigger one, just came up and says, stop and put your

hands behind your back. Why? I would respond the same way, why? What did I do? But I will say this, I cannot say at this point just with this

information, it was based solely on his race. I don`t think you can--

(CROSSTALK)

COOMBS: I heard that. I will tell you right now, I have a lot of experience with police officers, and I`m sure everyone here does. They

don`t like it when you won`t give your name, anybody, any color.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You don`t think if it was a gray haired man who is a Caucasian in a business suit sitting in that same chair he would have had

that same experience?

COOMBS: If they said what is your name, anyone who says, I`m not giving you my name, I know my rights. They`re not going to --

(CROSSTALK)

CANE: This is the problem. I think it`s really challenging for folks to see beyond their lens. Me as an African-American man, who was born -- who

was raised in West Philadelphia, it`s like sexism. You know when you`re experiencing sexism. You know when you`re experiencing racism. This guy

clearly knew what it was about. I really ask all of you to look beyond your lens. He is sitting there, waiting--

COOMBS: I appreciate that.

CANE: -- waiting for his children, and also one more thing, let me add this. Imagine if the video wasn`t there, if we didn`t see that video. We

live in this video culture now where if we don`t see the video, we don`t believe the victims, from Janay Rice to this man right here. Very sad.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Claypool, go ahead.

CLAYPOOL: Can I respond real quick? The issue here, Clay, is not, again, that this is racism, and you have got to stand up for yourself because

you`ve been racially profiled.

The teachable moment I am trying to impart here is, maybe they did profile him, maybe, but if they did, he`s got four kids, why doesn`t he simply say,

Clay, my name is Arthur --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We just have a few seconds. Answer that, Clay.

CANE: He complied. What else do you have to do to not get harassed, bullied and tased by police in front of your children? It`s very sad, very

disturbing, and on 9/11 it hurts my heart we have so many challenges in this country.

CLAYPOOL: He called the officer an f`ing a-hole on the video.

CANE: After he was thrown to the ground and he was tased. He was tased -- do you hear his children crying?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We unfortunately have to leave it there. We could talk about this for hours. We will stay on top of this and bring you more

reaction. More than a million views. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Little Rico, our own government waging a war, a campaign of terror on your cousins, your ancestors. Wolves. First our

government rescues these American icons from extinction over 35 years ago, now critics say the U.S. government has completely changed course and is

engineering the wholesale slaughter of wolves in a slew of (inaudible). Since the gray wolf was removed from the endangered species list in several

states three years ago, Predator Defense estimates about 3,000 wolves have been slaughtered in six states. Some say it`s higher. There are only

about 5,000 gray wolves left in the lower 48. The wolf killing spree happening in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin. And there is a

battle in Michigan. We`ve got breaking news on that.

Now, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service under the Interior Department wants to remove federal protection of wolves in all but two states. This woman,

secretary of the interior, Sally Jewell, is ultimately the leader of this horrific war on wolves. We want you, the next video we will show you very

graphic. But it`s important to bear witness to suffering. Critics say wolf hunting is vicious, violent. It`s driving wolves to the brink of

extinction again. Sports hunters shoot wolves sometimes from helicopters, sometimes they are poisoned. These poor wolves and even household pets get

caught in traps and suffer long, painful deaths.

Straight out to Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the United States. Wayne, you have breaking news about our government via the

Interior Department`s war on wolves.

WAYNE PACELLE, HUMANE SOCIETY: Jane, what`s happened is the federal government had wolves listed as endangered and they removed the federal

protections. The states then took over, and state politicians have been the ones who have been driving this massive killing of wolves in Wisconsin,

Minnesota, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. The one bright spot but it`s still a big fight is it appears we blocked the wolf hunting season in Michigan for

this fall.

But very importantly, there are two ballot measures on the slate in November. So when people are voting for governor and U.S. senator and

other offices, they will also be voting to kill wolves or protect wolves in the future. So we`re really urging people to get behind our measures. We

have got a coalition called KeepWolvesProtected.com. That is a big battleground. Of course, there are still wolves being killed in the other

states, but we don`t have anything quite so imminent in terms of a decision from the public.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You heard it, keepwolvesprotected.com. The Interior Department just sent us a statement. Quote, "The U.S. Fish and Wildlife

Service has been at the forefront of the conversation efforts that led to the spectacular recovery of the gray wolf, one of our nation`s most iconic

species. We have no intentions of seeing those efforts reversed. Although the gray wolf is not returned to its former range numbers, according to the

letter of the Endangered Species Act, it is no longer in danger of extinction or likely to become so in the foreseeable future." According to

the letter, maybe not the spirit, Wayne. What exactly is your response to that?

PACELLE: Well, you know, we have a lawsuit against the Interior Department over the delisting of the wolves in the Great Lakes region. In Minnesota,

Wisconsin and Michigan. You know, in Wisconsin, they have only 700 or 800 wolves, they have killed over 250 of them. These are social animals, they

live in packs. 80 percent of those wolves were trapped with snares in steel (inaudible) traps, or they were hunted with packs of hounds before

the people shot them. Not because they were offending, problem wolves, but just because they wanted a trophy or a fur pelt. It`s important, you know,

there are people who hunt deer for the meat. Nobody kills wolves for food. They are inedible. This is just trophy hunting in its purest form.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And critics say it`s also not only to benefit hunters, but it is also to sort of placate the cattle industry. I`ve heard critics say

that, that oh, if there are thousands of wolves out there and one cow gets attacked by a wolf, all of a sudden they become predators.

PACELLE: It is irrational, Jane. They have this irrational fear of wolves. It is like Little Red Riding Hood and fairy tales. Michigan Live

(ph), which is a consortium of Michigan newspapers, said that more than half of all the incidents reported in Michigan were on one farm, where the

farmer was baiting the wolves with deer parts and cow parts, and then he`s crying crocodile tears that the wolves are bothering him, when he was

baiting them onto his farm. So the whole thing are trumped-up charges against wolves.

Wolves have been proved, in Yellowstone, to have an amazing ecological effect, beneficial cascade effect through the ecosystem. No reason to kill

them for their heads. The states and federal government already allow selective control of wolves causing a problem. This is trophy hunting of

unoffending wolves.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quickly, what should people do? People who care about wolves?

PACELLE: You know, the No. 1 battle is in Michigan. Go to Keepwolves protected.com, because that is coming up in 60 days, a vote of the people

in the state of Michigan. Write to your federal lawmakers. Write to Sally Jewell, the interior secretary, and say that this needless killing by the

states in the northern Rockies and the Great Lakes must stop.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have a bunch of web sites there. Keepwolvesprotected.com. Also go to my Facebook page, and we will give you

all of the information. These poor creatures can`t speak for themselves. They`re ancestors of the dogs we all love. Look at them. I can`t tell the

difference between that and a dog. They are essentially cousins.

Sally Jewell, I have no words. I have no words. I pray that you will find it in your heart to show compassion to our wolves and other species that

you have control over. Nancy Grace is up next.

END