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Graham: Trump Will Intervene with "Iranian-Type Sanctions"; Former Trump Russia Adviser Testifies on Capitol Hill; The Bidens Fight Back Against Trump's Attacks; Buttigieg Defends Biden, Slams Trump; 2020 Dems Divided Over Proposed Gun Buyback Programs. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired October 14, 2019 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] JOHN KING, CNN HOST: -- we must have a bipartisan bicameral joint resolution to overturn the president's dangerous decision in Syria immediately.

Let's bring the conversation in the studio. With us still, Catherine Lucey with the Wall Street Journal, Paul Kane from the Washington Post, and Admiral John Kirby, our CNN military and diplomatic analyst.

Interesting language here, Senator Lindsey Graham at the top of the show before he went to Fort Worth was talking about sanctions punishing Turkey. Speaker Pelosi using a somewhat different language, overturn the president's dangerous decision in Syria immediately. They can't do that.

PAUL KANE, SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WASHINGTON POST: No, as the admiral can you. That just doesn't work in the constitution that way. I would guess that this is some sort of sense of the Congress resolution in which they will express sort of a rejection of the presidential decision, but there's really nothing that they can do to stop it other than sort of adding on more sanctions to whatever they come up with this afternoon at the White House.

KING: Right. She goes on to tweet, to your point there, she says the president gave a green light to a Turks to bomb and effectively unleashed ISIS. "We must have a stronger sanction package than what the White House is suggesting." The question is, can the Congress -- this is a rare moment that both parties can come together in their outrage. Can they come together? Will the Republicans go along with the speaker if she wants a bigger -- either a bolder package than they want?

CATHERINE LUCEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: Yes. That's one of the questions here. I mean, what they can come together on what the White House is talking about. We haven't seen sort of full details in terms of what the president and Treasury are looking at. It does do I think -- I mean, this really underscores that this comes after a week of widespread criticism of the president on this move. KING: And it's an after the fact thing. You can sanction Turkey, you can criticize the president. The facts on the ground have now changed in a very important place in the world where a U.S. ally for a very long-time that lost more than 10,000 of its troops is now furious and feels betrayed. At the beginning of the program, before we go to Fort Worth, the defense secretary saying, well, we don't have the force to stop them, therefore, we got out.

I find that -- and please tell me if I'm wrong, to be more spin in the idea that I assume that if the United States said to Turkey, you will not cross that border, our troops will not move, an attack on the Kurds would be considered an attack on America, then we would not be in this spot.

RET. RDML JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: One of the reasons why we hadn't seen Turkey come in was just that that we did have some leverage on the ground, not in terms of numbers of troops but influence over the SDF. Trying to focus them against ISIS which actually worked to Turkey's benefit and also having an American presence on the ground that could help with some intelligence gathering. So, yes, I mean, we had leverage that now we've lost.

There were always going to be tensions. Turkey's interest in Syria was completely different than ours. But was this something inevitable move that we simply just couldn't avoid? No, I don't think so.

KING: All right, we'll keep our eye on it in the days and weeks ahead. It could be. And we'll watch the sanctions debate here on Washington.

Up next for us, it is a big week in the Democratic impeachment inquiry.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:37:38] KING: Testimony today kicks off what is a consequential week in the House Democratic impeachment inquiry. Still ongoing this hour, the president's former Russian adviser, Fiona Hill, you see here there arriving, answering questions on Capitol Hill. That after Democrats issued a subpoena this morning amid what they call White House attempts to direct witnesses not to cooperate. Hill, one of three witnesses expected to give depositions to House Democratic investigators in the coming days. There are also seven subpoena deadlines including for the White House, the energy secretary, the Pentagon, and others to turn over documents related to Ukraine in the buildup to that July 25th phone call between President Trump and the Ukrainian President Zelensky.

Gordon Sondland, another big witness on this week schedule. According to a weekend report in the Washington Post, Sondland plans to tell Congress that a text message denial of a quid pro quo with Ukraine sent to another diplomat was directly relayed to him by President Trump after they had a phone call.

So let's discuss this now. Toluse Olorunnipa with the Washington Post and Melanie Zanona with the Politico join our conversation. So the Democrats are trying behind closed doors to build their fact witnesses. Fiona Hill today, Ambassador Sondland later in the week. There's been a lot of complaining from Republicans about they're doing this in private, they're leaking out selective parts. Where are we headed?

MELANIE ZANONA, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Democrats at some point are going to come out in the public and make this case to the American people. They're having these briefings behind closed doors, they're struggling with the non-cooperation (INAUDIBLE) from the White House. And if they go ahead with impeachment without holding a single hearing, you can just imagine what the GOP talking points are going to be. But I do think there is some reluctance still among Democrats to hold these high-profile hearings. You know, we had Corey Lewandowski which turned into an absolute circus, they had Mueller which fell flat so they're being very careful but they do have a lot of decisions to make here going forward.

KING: And among the decisions, what to do with the first whistleblower who came forward, and the president constantly tweeting that what the whistleblower has said is false which is not true. The major points made by the whistleblower had in fact being corroborated by the documents released by the president, the draft -- the memo about the call with Ukraine, and by acknowledgments by the president's own staff about using the top secret server to put some later conversations that they didn't want to be wildly disseminated.

So what the president says about the whistleblower is not true but the Democrats who first sort of tee this person up as a key witness, now, here's Adam Schiff, the man leading the committee investigations here saying maybe we don't have to have this witness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:40:00] REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Given that we already have the call record, we don't need the whistleblower who wasn't on the call to tell us what took place during the call. We have the best evidence of that. It may not be necessary to take steps that might reveal the whistleblower's identity to do that, and we're going to make sure we protect that whistleblower.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, the protection part is well said and well understood in the sense that you heard the president in his rally the other day essentially saying what protection for whistleblowers. But, to the Democrats who are in the risks, if they just keep changing their mind, even if as they build their fact case and sort of the politics case, Republicans keep saying they're retreating and they don't have a plan and they're hiding all this.

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they are definitely under a lot of pressure to run a very seamless impeachment process, they can't be seen making mistakes because they cannot as you said -- last week, they have to have an error-free process because Republicans are ready to pounce on the entire process and say it's a sham. So, I think you're seeing folks like Adam Schiff try to adjust the situation as it changes. They have found more information that's come out to corroborate what the whistleblower originally said, so they don't feel as much need, especially what the whistleblower originally said. So they don't fell as much need especially with the president and with Republicans putting pressure on the whistleblower saying this person needs to reveal themselves. The president needs to have the ability to face his accuser.

The protections for whistleblowers do not seem to be holding up in Republican circles right now, so you do see Democrats trying to adjust to the new realities. But it is making it difficult for them as Melanie said to try to run this process when the Republicans and when the White House are saying, we're not handing over any documents, we're not handing over any witnesses. They've had some success in getting some witnesses to show up but it is a high wire act with them trying to run this process with the White House that doesn't want to cooperate.

KING: And we've also seen some missteps by the White House or at least some miscommunication. Last week, we're all talking about the former Republican congressman from South Carolina -- the legal team at the White House and they thought maybe replace Rudy Giuliani as the person without -- mostly on television defending the president. Also someone who because of his access to the House as a former member can keep the pulse of House members, make sure all the Republicans are still in line.

This from the New York Times piece, "A day alter, the arrangement fell apart, with lobbying rules prohibiting Mr. Gowdy from starting until January, possibly after the inquiry is over. Now, according to two people familiar with events, Mr. Gowdy is never expected to join the team. And Trump advisers are back to square one, searching for a different lawyer."

The president's acting chief of staff wanted this to happen. There's also a former member of the House who has to -- one would think understand the rules on former members of the House getting involved in lobbying and et cetera.

LUCEY: Well, they've been under a lot of pressure from outside allies, from Republicans in the Hill to develop more about coherence strategy and a coherent team to deal with this. And this was seen as a way to try sort of move towards that, build a team. And it hasn't really come together yet. There's isn't White House (INAUDIBLE) dealing with this. A lot of the strategy which from the Oval Office as he tweets and as he reacting to a lot of people around him are concerned about.

KING: And the Post story about Sondland's potential testimony which is quite striking where he's involved in these text messages that all of a sudden he takes four and a half hours then responds. The president says, no, you've got the president wrong, they're (INAUDIBLE) about this. According to the Post he is prepared to say the president essentially dictated that to me.

KIRBY: Yes. He's not going to say the voracity of the comment, he is just going to say that the president told met there is no quid pro quo. That'll be some dramatic testimony, well, behind closed doors but we'll be finding out, Thursday, what more he will add to that.

KING: Right. And then the question is, if Democrats build this face case as they say they're trying to do, to your point, do they come to try to bring some of it on to the public. We'll watch.

Up next for us, the Bidens look to quell questions about foreign business ties ahead of a big Democratic debate tomorrow night. Questions about foreign business ties and a big Democratic debate, tomorrow night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:47:24] KING: Hunter Biden is about to give his side of the story. The son of former vice president Joe Biden is sitting down for an interview with ABC News to be released tomorrow morning. Hunter Biden announced, Sunday, yesterday he will step down from the board of a Chinese back investment fund. He also promised to not serve on any foreign entity's board if his father is elected president.

That interview comes as the Biden campaign also turns more aggressive in responding to President Trump's attacks. Joe Biden is just releasing a new government ethics plan. And during a campaign stop in Iowa, made his own vow that if he were to become president, also taking a not so subtle shot here at the Trump family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D-DE), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No one in my family will have an office in the White House, will sit in on meetings as though they're a cabinet member, will, in fact, have any business relationship with anyone that relates to a foreign corporation or a foreign country, period. Period. End of story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: It is an interesting moment where a lot of people were watching the vice president early on and he wasn't responding. Now they've decided to try to take this and turn this. The president is going to come after him and his family. He's going to try to make it about the president and to turn -- use the attention to turn it to his advantage. There shot at Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, the president's daughter and son-in-law clearly. Will it work is the question I guess.

KANE: I think we'll have to watch tomorrow night to see where he takes that. But I think it's -- he's trying to pivot this into saying what you think -- and it's Trumpian in the way he's kind of doing it. While you think what Hunter did was bad, look at what's going on with this Trump family. And, you know, Don Jr. and Eric are still running the company that is getting a hotel visits from world leaders all around the -- up and down Pennsylvania Avenue for visits here. So I think he's trying to flip it back on the Trumps.

KING: Flip it back and to that point, let's -- number one, the president who's been asking where is Hunter at several of his rallies and in Twitter and the like now tweeting today, "Wow, Hunter Biden being forced to leave a Chinese company." Then he goes on, he uses his fake news term there to criticize the media.

Joe Biden yesterday saying that he was proud his son has decided to give this interview, he was proud his son has stepped away but he also says that he was not directly involved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: The statement my son put out today which I saw when he put it out, I was told it was going to be put out. I did not consult with him while it was being put out. In fact, represents the kind of man of integrity he is. What I'm not going to let you do is take the focus off the problem.

[12:50:03] No one, no one has asserted my son did a single thing wrong. No one has asserted that I have done anything wrong except a lying president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That to Paul's point, he gets back there to lying president with the finger out. Again, a much more assertive response then initially he was trying to essentially be like there's no big deal here, let's not talk about it.

OLORUNNIPA: Yes. The campaign is sort of trying to figure out the best way to respond to this. I spoke to a campaign official over the weekend who basically said that they don't want have a repeat of what happened in 2016 with Hillary Clinton where she had to spend so much time trying to respond to what the allegations were against her with her e-mails. They don't want to get in the mud with the president and have so much of the focus be vice president Biden defending himself, defending his son and not getting out his positive method.

So, it's not an easy trail to follow because they have to figure out how to not seem as if they're, you know, ignoring this major threat from the president but also not get bogged down in this mudslinging fight with the president over corruption or what Hunter Biden was doing in Ukraine in trying to answer these questions. You do see them trying to get out ahead of it to what extent with having Hunter Biden say, listen, I'm not going to be on this foreign company's board anymore if my father is elected, I'm not going to work for any foreign governments. But you have to imagine that this will continue to be an issue. Even though Democrats are not using this against him, Biden will still have to face voters and figure out how to message this.

KING: Right, the still face voters part is interesting. If you look at some polling on this, this is CBS News/YouGov Battleground Tracker among Democrats in early states. Very satisfied with how the vice president handle this, 29 percent, somewhat satisfied, 47 percent. So if you add that up, right there, that's a big number. But if (INAUDIBLE) about, you know, 30 -- you get to 25 percent there, a little less than that on the not so satisfied at the bottom of it. The question is, and Toluse makes a great point, some of the other Democrats early on were either saying or responding to questions by saying, well, my children wouldn't do anything like this. They've seemed to back off. The mood seems to be that Trump started this, we're going to stay away from it completely. Including Mayor Pete Buttigieg right here who says this is not about Joe Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-SOUTH BEND, IN.), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, Joe Biden is a very good man, and if this is going to be a (INAUDIBLE) contest between the White House and any person in the Democratic field, if certainly the vice president, there's just no comparison.

I don't think this is the time to allow the president to change the subject when the biggest thing that America is facing right now --

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I've been asking that question separately with President Trump. Does this raise questions about the Bidens?

BUTTIGIEG: (INAUDIBLE) other people raise those questions because the question on my mind is that the American president confessing on television to an abuse of power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The Democrats will spar tomorrow night about a lot of things, about Medicare for All, perhaps about other issues. But it seems that most of the candidates have decided not here.

LUCEY: Which is interesting because a key question for the Democrats tomorrow night and for Joe Biden, I think this is reflected in the polling is, who is the best person to take on Donald Trump and the kind of campaigning he is going to do whether you like it or not. Has Joe Biden responded vigorously enough? Does he have, you know, enough fight giving back to Trump? I mean, these are real questions. Whether you like the way Trump is framing it or not, he has embraced a sort of scourge earth, (INAUDIBLE) style like nothing is held sacred in his campaigning and that's not going to change. And so they have to figure out a way to work with that.

KING: I think that -- go ahead.

ZANONA: We have seen Biden ramp up his own rhetoric, he finally call for impeachment after dancing around it for a long time, so we're starting to see that I want to take Trump outside the gym Biden that we saw months ago. And so he does appear to be shifting his strategy but is that enough for voters.

KING: Right. And I think to your point, Democrats might be hoping that voters get there, that they don't want a Hillary Clinton (INAUDIBLE) but they're not going to (INAUDIBLE) in the middle of it because they think they may suffer as well as they get involved in it. Up next for us, you just saw Mayor Pete Buttigieg there defending Joe Biden. He's taking heat, the mayor is, from a 2020 rival on another issue on the eve of that big debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:58:36] KING: Welcome back.

Twelve candidates facing off tomorrow night on the debate stage in Ohio hosted by CNN and the New York Times. You see the room right there. One issue dividing the Democratic field? Gun buyback programs. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live in Columbus, Ohio for us. Jeff, we've seen some sparks fly on the day before the debate here.

ZELENY: John, we certainly are. I think certainly a preview of what we can hear tomorrow evening on the debate. At least that's what Senator Cory Booker is suggesting. Take a look at a tweet he sent out just a short time ago aimed directly at Pete Buttigieg on gun buybacks. He says this, he said, "Calling buyback programs confiscation is doing the NRA's work for them Pete Buttigieg, and they don't need our help."

So John, what's happening here is really a continuation of the discussion that has been going on inside this Democratic primary campaign about gun buybacks. Beto O'Rourke started it. He said all AK-47s and ar-15s should be confiscated. Of course, those are fighting words to many voters.

John, particularly, we should keep in mind where this debate is taking place. Here in the state of Ohio. If Democrats are to be competitive a year from now which of course is the big picture here of the primary, what does this language tomorrow night on the stage do to the general election capabilities for Democrats? So all of this coming front and center. We'll see how Pete Buttigieg responds tomorrow night.

John?

KING: It'd be fascinating to watch. Jeff Zeleny, appreciate it. I appreciate you're out there talking to voters as well. Tomorrow night's debate moderated of course by CNN and the New York Times, live tomorrow night, 8 p.m. Eastern. You don't want to miss it.

Thanks for joining us today in the INSIDE POLITCS. Don't go anywhere. Busy news day. Brianna Keilar starts right now. Have a great afternoon.

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