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House Conservatives Defiant After Barging Into Secure Impeachment Hearing; Lindsey Graham To Push Resolution On Impeachment Process; Democrats Could Begin Public Impeachment Hearings By Mid- November; Donald Trump Allies Struggle To Find Unified Impeachment Defense; Warren, Biden Fighting For Lead In 2020 National Polling. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired October 24, 2019 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Have a good birthday. Thanks you all so much for joining. Hope the Congressman have a great birthday. "INSIDE POLITICS" with John King starts right now.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Thank you, Kate, and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thank you for sharing your day with us. Trump allies in Congress escalate their complaints about the Democrats' impeachment inquiry practice. Democrats call it a stunt designed to distract from damning testimony. And those Democrats promise public hearings most likely next month.

Plus the President's impeachment strategy has two lead elements. Smear the key witnesses and pressure Republicans to stay in line. Human scum is the President's term for Republicans who disagree with him. And on Capitol Hill last hour, a rare bipartisan moment of unity. In a solemn farewell to Congressman Elijah Cummings of Baltimore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): God truly blessed America with the life and legacy of Elijah Cummings.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R) MAJORITY LEADER: Our distinguished colleague truly has gone home, home to his father's house.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMMER, (R) MINORITY LEADER: Those gathered here today have lost a dear friend, and our country has lost a giant.

REP. MARK MEADOWS, (R-NC): Perhaps this place and this country would be better served with a few more unexpected friendships. I know I've been blessed by one.

(END VIDOE CLIP)

KING: An important moment there and an important message, especially as we begin the hour with the partisan divides that will, without a doubt, soon return. The impeachment fight President Trump today taking to Twitter to praise the roughly two dozen Republicans who barged into that interview uninvited yesterday. The Republican complaint that too much of the impeachment inquiry is happening behind closed doors and away from the scrutiny of the public eye. It is a process argument that ignores the damning substance of that private testimony. The President, though, praising the disruptors as tough, smart and understanding but not all Republicans are comfortable with this stunt Republican Congressman Francis Rooney, for example, who sits on the Foreign Affairs Committee sharing a little advice for both sides.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. FRANCIS ROONEY, (R-FL): Part of why I'm probably not really cut out for this line of work is I'm not really theatrical. You know I just want to get the facts and make a good decision especially something as important as this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would be your advice to the Democrats?

ROONEY: I think as soon as they go public and have a more spirited public debate about this would probably be in their interest. I just can't take an ideological position without facts. It's not really serving the President well to not get the facts out there and let the facts stand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Democrats add him in today the process is methodical and careful. Congressman Eric Swalwell who sits on the House Intelligence Committee telling CNN this morning Democrats believe witnesses now getting a little too chatty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ERIC SWALWELL, (D-CA): We have evidence very recently that there are witnesses in our case who are talking to each other. That's exactly what we don't want to happen until we have that preliminary investigation. We don't want them to tailor their testimony to each other.

We don't want them to manufacture -- to try to protect the information as much as we can before we bring it forward to the public. That's why we're doing this in a closed fashion, closed to the public, not to the 120 members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats, who have access to the room.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Sources though telling CNN public hearings could begin as early as mid-November. It's also possible, Democrats say, this could slip, though, until sometime around Thanksgiving or may be after. CNN's Manu Raju live on Capitol Hill. Manu, what are you hearing from lawmakers today after a very tense yesterday?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're taking a break on House side in honoring the late Elijah Cummings, expect the closed door hearings to begin again on starting on Saturday with a Senior State Department Official followed by two people next week, including Tim Morrison who is a top National Security Council Official expected to come from behind closed doors to answer questions.

He is personally was named through our Bill Taylor, the top diplomat from Ukraine, a testimony rather damaging testimony against the President, and in that testimony of course saying that he had been told that the President of the United States withheld vital military aid and other efforts to strengthen the relationship with Ukraine, in exchange for Ukraine announcing investigations that could potentially help the President's reelection campaign.

Now, at the same time what you're hearing again from Republicans is an attack over the process. Lindsey Graham, the Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman, told me earlier today that he plans to introduce a resolution, along with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, to essentially condemn what the House Democrats are doing, calling it a sham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC): I'm doing a resolution instead focusing on the process. So Senator McConnell is now the co-sponsor. We have a resolution urging the House to adopt the same procedures that Clinton and Nixon had available to them to call witnesses to defend themselves.

You got to remember that the House voted on an impeachment inquiry and it failed. What they're doing in the Intel Committee is not a viable sub substitute for that because it basically shows the President out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:05:00]

RAJU: So I asked him about some of the substance in Bill Taylor's remarks and he pushed back on that saying essentially this was hearsay, because Bill Taylor did not hear directly from the President that the President wanted to withhold that military aid in exchange for announcing those investigations. So you're hearing a Republican defense starting to sharpen to defend what the President is alleged to have done, John.

KING: Manu Raju, I appreciate the live reporting on the Hill. We'll watch as that resolution goes forward. With me here in the studio to share their reporting and their insights, Vivian Solano with "The Wall Street Journal" CNN's Jeff Zeleny Heather Caygle with "POLITICO" and Margaret Talev with "Axios".

I want to start with Matt Gaetz, one of the Republicans who disrupted yesterday. He is not on the Committee here, so he has no right to be in the room. I'll get to the numbers of many of his cohorts yesterday do have the right to be in the room. They keep complaining about the process.

They have every right to be there, they can question the witnesses. They can raise objections if they so like, but they don't want to focus on that at the moment. They just want to scream foul and Matt Gaetz holding himself up here as historic?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ, (R-FL): We were like the 300 standing in the breach to try to stop the radical left from storming over our democracy. I think we made the point that President Trump deserves the process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the President tell you guys to do this or you decided on your own?

GAETZ: No, I haven't chatted with the President, though I suspect he might have a view he'll want to share after today. We have set some requests to the House Democrats with hopes that they'll change the way that they brought this process in secret. If they don't, who knows what will happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That's the universal superhero Matt Gaetz. I want to come back to earth. There are three committees involved in the inquiry so far, right? The Foreign Affairs Committee, the Intelligence Committee and the Oversight Committee they have 106 members, 58 Democrats, 48 Republicans.

All those Republicans are entitled to be here, all of their staff are entitled to be in there. I get the Republicans are making an argument this is impeachment. We want a different process. This is not just oversight. That's a fair question for people to debate. But this idea that they have no rights and they have no presence is horsepucky, correct?

HEATHER CAYGLE, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Absolutely. A quarter of the Republican conference is allowed to sit in on any of these depositions, hear them. Some of them are allowed to ask questions. So the fact that they say that they've been shut out is totally false.

Several of the members who were barnstorming yesterday are actually allowed to sit in, about a dozen or so. So what this was a distraction. Bill Taylor's testimony was very damning on Tuesday. He connected the quid to the quo and Trump was right in the middle of it, so they needed something to do to avoid answering questions about substance, I think.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: And the President all week long has been saying, come on, guys, where are you, where are you? This is entirely a show that was filmed by TMZ, because that's what it was, it was a show. It was not a substantive thing.

What if all the Democrats who aren't on the Committee would come in, what if "The Squad" would come in? It's is just like absurd. So this is all about making sure the President knows that they have his back there. But at the end of the day, it's going to slow this down, not speed it up. KING: Right. And it's important politics in the sense that was on TMZ. I bet you see a lot more of this on Fox News. Impeachment is a political argument. The polls have been moving against the President. They are trying to hold what they have and hold Republicans as being against this by complaining about the process.

You don't hear a lot of hearsay, you can say, that's why Mr. Taylor gave him to other people. He said here are the cables I sent ready, emails I sent and here's is other person on the phone call, here's how you can get it firsthand. That's what the Democrats say they're going to do.

VIVIAN SALAMA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, this also comes on the heels of a number of policy decisions that were getting push back from Republicans and then you've had Republicans pushing back on the President's decision to withdraw from Syria and a number of things that Mick Mulvaney announced from his press conference from last week from hosting the G-7 in Doral, the President's resort in Florida, to even this link of the DNC server to Ukrainian military aid which he later walked back.

A lot of that was getting pushed back by Republicans and was getting reported pretty widely. The Republican Party and definitely the President wanting to show that he still has the support, and so that's why we understand that protest received his blessing, because at the end of the day, he wants to show that he does still have those people backing him.

KING: And it's a safer place for the President's allies in the sense that so much of what the White House has said was later proven to not be correct. Their factual presentation, they've had to take a lot of things back or the witnesses are contradicting it. Therefore, if you are a Republican you don't want to take - you can't call the Ukraine call perfect like the President so you want to stage your protest.

MARGARET TALEV, POLITICS AND WHITE HOUSE EDITOR, AXIOS: Yeah, I mean, it was interesting to hear Lindsey Graham just then talking about the process, because until now his red line has been the quid pro quo. He said in an interview with Axios that aired over the weekend also, that if you could show him a quid pro quo, he might be willing to reconsider this.

But now that we've seen sort of some more damning testimony on that front, the conversation is shifting back to the process.

[12:10:00]

TALEV: We kept hearing from Democrats and Republicans on the Hill about how Adam Schiff was sort of the Ken Starr of today. We're trying to figure out, what does that even mean? Why is that important? So we reached out to a bunch of lawyers, and Lawrence Stribe who, granted, has his issues with Trump, that are already out there, said it is because the Justice Department made that decision not to treat that complaint from the CIA as anything that would go forward through DOJ.

So because you don't have an independent prosecutor in this case, it is left to the House to kind of play that dual role right now of independent prosecutor who would conduct an investigation and of Committee Chairman. It's because of that that Democrats have preceded the way that they have so that you can't see that witness comparing or the public spectacle that would get in the way of fact-finding.

KING: And so - here is one Democrat, I want to get to an important Former Republican Congressman Mayor but here is a Democrat saying listen, enjoy your stunt now Republicans because in a couple weeks, we're going to have public hearings, and guess what? Explain those.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. VERONICA ESCOBAR, (D) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: His Republican defenders, all they can do, because of how devastating the facts are, is try to distract from the investigation and to try to deceive the American people, especially once this investigative portion is complete and once the public hearings begin, I think we will begin to see even more and more desperation to try to explain away the facts that are very, very simple and very clear. The President abused his power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So that is the burden on the Democrats when they take this public, to prove that that's the case and to have compelling witnesses to make the case. As the Republicans complain about taking all this questioning in private, I know some Republicans will say well impeachment is different but the House Republicans had a Benghazi investigation when they were in charge.

The House Republicans had an Obama IRS investigation when they were in charge, almost all of it conducted behind closed doors. After both of those, some Republicans came out and said, maybe we should have impeachment proceedings. The man who led them said you know what the best thing in the world is do these things in private.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TREY GOWDY, (R-SC): I can just tell you that of the 50 some of interviews we have done thus far, the vast majority of these have been private, and you don't see the bickering among the members of Congress in private interviews. The private ones always produce better results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Hmm.

SALAMA: There's also --

KING: That was then, this is now, I guess.

SALAMA: And there's also some apprehension on the side of the Democrats because of the Mueller testimony a couple months back where they really hoped for this be smoking gun and explosive testimony, and what ended up happening was Mueller wasn't as sharp as they hoped he was, they didn't have this sort of big smoking gun that came out of the testimony, so a lot of them are really reluctant.

TALEV: But on the flip side, if there had been that testimony, if we had seen Bill Taylor's testimony and all of these things that we've heard dribs and drabs of, seeing the prepared text of it, if we had seen that play out on television, I'm not convinced that's what the Republicans wanted.

KING: Right. When the Democrats take this public, and this is the burden on them and it's a pretty high one, the Republicans will have the chance to question those witnesses. The President's legal team will have a chance to at least go through the Republicans in getting things prepared. The Democrats should be fair to the President when they get there, but I think Trey Gowdy summed it up better than I can about how to build a process. Up next, a look at the White House impeachment strategy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KING: The White House is adding some structure to its impeachment defense. There are more calls and meetings with allies on Capitol Hill, for example. But the President and his tweets are the first line of defense, and the strategy very clear. Attack the key witnesses and make Republican loyalty an impeachment litmus test.

This twitter warning just one example the never Trumper Republicans, though on respirators with not many left, are in certain ways worse and more dangerous for our country than the do nothing Democrats. Watch out for them, the President says they are his words "Human scum". That is a warning. That is a warning from the President cross me and you'll have to deal with me and my Twitter chain saw.

ZELENY: For sure and he is conducting the orchestra here and he is programming the response. Yes, there is a worm. There are a lot of people who work in a variety of ways, but he is running all of it, largely from his residence in the White House. His schedule has been pretty light again this week. He's been meeting with his lawyers a few times absent Rudy Giuliani, of course.

But he is sending a message here and Republicans, particularly in the House, are definitely responding to it. So all of this is designed to, by the time these hearings become public, by the time that there is a vote, to have this completely framed into an old political argument. Everyone is on their side going forward. That is what he is up to every day of the week.

KING: And even a lot of Trump supporters are asking the question, who is on the team? Who is out there speaking for him? Because he does not have an aggressive defense at least on the substance his Press Secretary was on Fox News this morning, asked if the President regretted calling fellow Republicans human scum.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No. No, he shouldn't. The people who are against him and who have been against him and working against him since the day they took office are just that. It is horrible that people are working against a President who is delivering results for this country and has been since day one.

[12:20:00]

GRISHAM: And the fact that people continue to try to negate anything that he's doing and take away from the good work he's doing on behalf of the American people, they deserve strong language like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We are suddenly seeing a little bit more from Stephanie Grisham, the Press Secretary who has been MIA from a public perspective. She's got important other jobs off camera, but she has not been in the briefing room, she hasn't been on television all that much, but that is a result of the Mick Mulvaney briefing last week where they have now realized, okay, we can't put him out there, and there are some rumblings that he might be in some trouble, although I'm skeptical you would fire your Acting Chief of Staff at a time when he could become an important impeachment witness.

TALEV: Yes. There are a number of messaging challenges going on here, but I think what you're getting to is that there is really an unresolved question inside the Trump White House right now. Do they need to more officially build up a war room? Do they need a spokesman for the impeachment effort who is separate from the Press Secretary and who is not the Chief of Staff?

Do they need some additional Counsel's office? Do they need an outside Counsel who is not going to be Trey Gowdy and you cannot be Rudy Giuliani? These are all unresolved questions at this time, and so for now the holding pattern is to try to organize the House Republicans and a couple Senate Republicans who can kind of hold the line even as the line shifts, but I think these questions about what is the White House trying to communicate?

Is the White House trying to communicate that there was no quid pro quo, or is the White House trying to communicate that, yes, there was a quid pro quo but there is always quid pro quos in diplomacy and there is nothing wrong with that? The strategy has been shifting and continues to shift as we speak.

KING: And it works when the President does this. Yesterday we talked about how John Thune said he had heard about the Bill Taylor testimony and found it to be troubling picture. He wanted more information, he wanted to see it in detail, but what he had seen it was very troubling. CNN's Manu Raju asked about that today and noticed this is the shift.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: We guess you said -- the picture that painted of the President wasn't great.

SEN. JOHN THUNE, (R-SD): -- based on the reporting of what you guys were saying about it, but I went back yesterday and actually read what was said, and there is, there is a lot of secondhand information, a lot of sort of hearsay -- not hearsay, but in the sense that it was passed on, it wasn't a direct conversation.

So I think that, you know, the President needs to have the opportunity, and Republicans, frankly, for that matter in an open setting have the opportunity to respond to some of these accusations that are being made and questions that are being raised, and until we get that, I think, like you said, I think it's premature to jump to any conclusions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Moving back to a more cautious, safer space there.

SALAMA: And it seems to be a theme that -- we even heard it from Mick Mulvaney last week where the only testimony that they were really giving credence to was Ambassador Sondland of the EU saying that everything else was basically just leaked to the media and we can't verify it as fact.

These are all also the Republican talking points that are circulating around Capitol Hill now where they say, we don't know if there is any truth to this matter and so we should question it for -- moving forward. Other talking points including that the Democrats have wanted this impeachment hearing since the beginning, since Donald Trump took office, and so to give any credence to this particular issue is something that just they can't hold weight on it.

KING: But the hard part is when you talk to Republicans who been around a while in private who know who Bill Taylor is? Who know who Fiona Hill is, the people involved here, these are serious people who are worked in Fiona Hill's case Republican administrations, Bill Taylor's case Republican and Democrat who are viewed very credible and viewed as very detail-oriented people who have really meticulous notes about everything that happened.

CAYGLE: Even Republicans are having a hard time, especially these old bulls responding to questions like, do you believe that Bill Taylor is human scum because he is a 50-year public servant, he's a veteran. They know these folks, I mean, and they're like well, that's not what I would say, but maybe that's not what I would say, but may be this is hearsay. That's their current defense right?

And so, if Mr. Taylor comes and testifies publicly, they are going to have a very hard time attacking him. And my understanding is not just his testimony but he did bring evidence to back up his claim so it's not just hearsay. We could see that in a few weeks publicly.

TALEV: Two of the folks who are testifying next week, Charlie Cooperman and Tim Morrison it's important to note these are both hoax, these are both John Bolton guys, and by that I don't mean that they're against Trump, I just mean that these are credible national security professionals who are not political loyalists to the President, nor are they opponents of the President. They have a longstanding track record in national security on the hawkish side, and as part of the Bolton contingent that internally we know was very distrust about this parallel channel that was going on.

KING: It's going to be really hard to 17 angry Democrats that people who are being called as witnesses. They all worked for this President, they were hired by his people. Up next, another Democratic candidate secures a big spot on the debate stage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: A new Quinnipiac University Poll today gives us a fresh look at the 2020 democratic field. It also reminds us of an old but important lesson never invest too much in any one poll. You see the latest poll here side by side with the CNN poll we released yesterday. Senator Elizabeth Warren on top in today's Quinnipiac poll, Joe Biden leading in CNN's poll released again just yesterday.

Exact numbers aside, the Warren/Biden/Sanders grouping has been at the top of the pack now for months. There has been more change in the lower tier and one of those changes today has a very important impact.