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Inside Politics

Senate Acquits Trump Of Inciting Insurrection, 57 Vote To Convict; Trump's Lawyers Defend His Conduct, Slam Dems; Daily New COVID-19 Cases In U.S. Keep Falling; Interview With Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO). Aired 8-9a ET

Aired February 14, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:36]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. PAT LEAHY (D-VT): The respondent Donald j. Trump is not guilty as charged.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice-over): A second historic impeachment and a second acquittal.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This trial wasn't about choosing country over party, this was about choosing country over Donald Trump.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We have no power to convict and disqualify a former office holder who is now a private citizen.

PHILLIP: After an emotional trial and an 11th hour curveball on witnesses.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): President Trump must be convicted for the safety and security of our democracy.

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, TRUMP'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This unprecedented effort is not about Democrats opposing political violence, it is constitutional cancel culture.

PHILLIP: We'll talk to former impeachment manager, Congressman Jason Crow.

And Washington tries to move on to President Biden's economic rescue package and the fight against the pandemic.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have now purchased enough vaccine supply to vaccinate all Americans and now we're working to get those vaccines into the arms of millions of people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

PHILLIP (on camera): Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Abby Phillip.

To our viewers in the United States and around the world, thank you for spending part of your weekend with us.

Fifty-seven senators voted to convict Donald Trump, the most votes ever for a presidential impeachment but still short of the ten needed to have the super majority that's required for conviction. Yes, the seven Republicans who sided with every Democrat risked intense political backlash from their base, but two aren't running for reelection and three more won't face voters until 2026, freeing them up to be blunt about the twice-impeached former president's conduct.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): Rather than defend the constitutional transfer of power, he incited an insurrection with the purpose of preventing that transfer of power.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Our Constitution and our country is more important than any one person. I voted to convict President Trump because he is guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Senate Majority leader Chuck Schumer accused the other 43 Republicans of cowardice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: If instigating a mob against the government is considered permissible, if encouraging political violence becomes the norm, it will be open season, open season on our democracy. And everything will be up for grabs by whoever has the biggest clubs, the sharpest spears, the most powerful guns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Trump released a statement saying this has been yet another phase of the greatest witch-hunt in the history of our country. No president has ever gone through anything like it. He went on to promise or threaten, depending on how you look at it, that our historic, patriotic and beautiful movement to make America great again has only just begun.

And late last night, President Biden issued his own statement saying this sad chapter in our history has reminded us that democracy is fragile, that it must always be defended. Each of us has a duty and responsibility as Americans and especially as leaders to defend the truth and defeat the lies. That is how we end the uncivil war and heal the very soul of our nation.

And joining us now for their reporting and insights, Maggie Haberman of "The New York Times," CNN's Manu Raju, and "Politico's" Rachael Bade.

Now, Manu, I want to start with you.

Seven Republicans decided to convict, but 43 did stick with Trump and voted to acquit. I think we should point out many voted for acquittal on a technicality, on this issue of constitutionality and many of them even as they voted to acquit had some really tough things to say about Trump's conduct.

How do you see where we are with this vote? I mean, is seven the high water mark for bipartisanship or is it a sign that Trump still has a stranglehold over his party?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you look at the seven who voted to convict, you have a mix of senators who are retiring, you have a mix of senators who have just won their reelection.

[08:05:01]

You have only one -- in other words, they have six more years in their term, and then you also have one who is up next year for reelection is Lisa Murkowski of Alaska.

So there's not real -- as much political risk for those senators who decided to convict. If all 50 Republican senators did not have to worry about another election for six more years perhaps we would have seen a different outcome, but there is a clear concern among those senators who are facing reelection next year about a primary challenge because despite the position that Donald Trump is in at the moment, he is still a formidable force in the Republican primary.

So that's one reason why you saw a strong showing towards Donald Trump. And you're right, Abby, though, I spent the last several weeks talking to virtually everybody in the Senate Republican conference about Donald Trump's conduct. Very few are defending his conduct. They give some level of criticism, as strong as we heard from Mitch McConnell yesterday to that he has some level of culpability in what happened on January 6th.

But ultimately, they all comb their hat around that technicality saying that the constitution in their view has no role in trying a former president. That gave them a way out very early in this process and it was clear they were not going to shift off that position, even though the Senate as a whole affirmed the constitutionality of the proceedings at the first vote of this trial, but really this is a much different situation than we saw in the 2020 trial where Republicans they united except for Mitt Romney against the proceedings, many of them went to the floor to defend Donald Trump. What did we really not see yesterday? A defense of Donald Trump.

PHILLIP: Yeah, and perhaps no one did this more starkly than Mitch McConnell, Rachel. You know, growing up my mom used to say you can't eat your cake and have it, but Mitch McConnell literally tried to do that yesterday. Take a listen to what he had to say yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: They did this because they had been fed wild falsehoods by the most powerful man on earth because he was angry he lost an election. There is no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: I think the simple question here is what's the point for McConnell to try to do both of those things at the same time?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, Abby, I think this boils down to sort of one point and that is Mitch McConnell is not yet ready to retire. I mean, in a vacuum it's pretty clear what McConnell would do, he's made very clear that he's ready to turn the page on Donald Trump, his speech yesterday was by far the most critical speech we have ever seen him give in terms of the former president, he said the managers made their case in terms of saying that Trump did provoke this riot, that he had that responsibility and he didn't live up to his oath.

But then again as Manu was saying hung his decision to acquit on that technicality saying that it is not constitutional to impeach a former president. Clearly, the McConnell team sort of looking at all these different things, you know, did he want to use this to make a stand?

Is he in his twilight moment of his career and ready to sort of make that break? I mean, I think the thing that weighed heavily was that if he is going to vote to convict, he can't really lead anymore in terms of the Republican conference and that was something obviously he was looking at.

Republicans around the country would be telling their senators you cannot back Mitch McConnell for leader, you have to get him to step down. This would have put the conference in a really bad position and McConnell would probably have to retire if he would have taken that vote.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

BADE: So the thing I read from this is that he's not ready to disappear yet, perhaps he wants to try to, again, move the party away from Trump but it's pretty clear Trump is not going anywhere right now and this battle will continue between McConnell and the former president.

PHILLIP: Well, let me ask you, Maggie, you know, McConnell is not going to get any brownie points from Trump for voting to acquit him, in part because of how he slammed him in his earlier statement making the House impeachment managers' point.

What is the reaction in Trump world? What do you think could be the consequences for McConnell, if there are any? Obviously, he just won his own reelection bid, but what are the potential consequences down the road for him as a result of that decision yesterday?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think, Abby, candidly I think there are very few consequences for Mitch McConnell in terms of what he said yesterday. I think that Rachel is absolutely right, there would have been great consequences to him within his conference if he had voted to convict and that was the calculation that he was making.

He just won reelection, he is almost 80 years old, I don't think that Trump's threats about MAGA land are going to do a ton in terms of Mitch McConnell and I don't think that Trump would want to launch that effort and come up short because that would only make the anti-Trump forces stronger.

[08:10:04]

So, I think what you're going to see a Trump's anger be much more pointed at somebody like Congressman McCarthy where, you know, apparently the night that the story broke on CNN about the specifics of what had been said in that call, I realize it had been reported elsewhere, but this was on the eve of a key day in the impeachment trial, the president was very angry, the next day I think he had calmed down some, but I think that's where you're going to see his focus.

And I just want to add one other point, Abby. Look, it's clear that McConnell was both making the House impeachment case and saying why he didn't vote in the first place that way, which is obviously very confusing. I think Donald Trump has emerged from this trial damaged. I don't think he is as strong as he thinks he is. This is still his party until 2024 when there is another nominee, but at the same time he is not a very diminished figure but he is diminished.

PHILLIP: Well, I think to that point, Maggie, you wrote over this weekend that one of the lasting impacts of this whole trial is a telling of what Trump was actually doing on January 6th. These details that are so damaging to him.

I mean, what do you think are the consequences for Trump and what is his actual strategy to get beyond that if he wants to even make the claim that he has political power after a trial that really laid out his indifference to an attack on the United States capitol that was playing out on January 6th?

HABERMAN: I think you're going to see him try to recruit candidates using aides to do it to run against some of these House Republicans who voted for impeachment. You're certainly going to see him continue to target Liz Cheney. His relationship with McCarthy, they might continue speaking, but it's never going to be what it was and frankly I don't think McCarthy would want that, either. I think he just wants to get past Trump firing at other Republicans.

But look, I don't think that Donald Trump has the discipline, the personal discipline, to do the kind of intensive campaign against other Republicans that he wants. I do think we are likely to see him in public sooner rather than later. His aides have been discussing whether there is an opportunity for him to do something public in the coming days.

So I think you're going to see him reemerging in the press to some extent, but he is still facing other investigations in Georgia, in D.C. and in New York and those are still going to define to some degree what his power is going forward. PHILLIP: Manu, going back to the impeachment hearing just for a second

here, yesterday, the big curveball was the issue of witnesses and -- but you reported on Senator Chris Coons, a close ally of President Biden's and his involvement.

What was the message from Coons and is it fair to say that that was effectively a message from Biden to say wrap this thing up?

RAJU: You know, they were saying that Biden was not involved and that was the word from Coons' camp, but from what I was told from several sources is Coons made it clear he walked into the impeachment managers room and said the jury is ready to vote.

What that meant is those signs from Republican senators coming in was that if the Democrats were to moved forward with witnesses, the Trump team would push back and offer a slue of motions to have witnesses on their own end and the problem was this, that each motion would require up to two hours' debate on the Senate floor and could tie up the Senate for days and days and days, and that was the real concern and ultimately the House Democrats cut that deal and said no witnesses.

PHILLIP: I think many people saw on the liberal side saw that as a major cave, but as some of the House impeachment managers pointed out, witnesses may not have gained them a single vote on the Republican side, particularly and could have cost them, actually.

Manu, Rachel, Maggie, thank you for being with us this morning.

And up next, more on Trump's impeachment and post-presidency.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:25]

PHILLIP: Former President Donald Trump has been uncharacteristically quiet since he left office last month, partly because he no longer has his social media feeds, but the lawyers who defended him in his impeachment trial did their best to channel their client.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: It is constitutional cancel culture.

DAVID SCHOEN, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: They hated the results of the 2016 election and want to use this impeachment process to further their political agenda.

BRUCE CASTOR, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: President Trump is the most pro-police, anti-mob rule president this country has ever seen.

VAN DER VEEN: This impeachment has been a complete charade from beginning to end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And back with me now CNN's Manu Raju and Maggie Haberman of "The New York Times."

Maggie, the president's lawyers were a little bit of a sideshow in this impeachment hearing, frankly. You reported about some of the drama going behind the scenes, but at the end of the day they did, it seemed, what the president wanted, particularly on that last day giving him the show that he wanted.

What's the true in Trump world of how this legal team held up, maybe by a hue string, but how they held up nonetheless?

HABERMAN: I have spoken to people in the last 24 hours, Abby, who described this as one of the strangest and worst weeks in Trump legal team history.

PHILLIP: That's saying a lot.

HABERMAN: His seventh or eighth legal team depending on how you count it.

This was basically taking over this team in terms of what they were going to do or say by a handful of Trump advisers.

[08:20:03]

The scripts -- you may have notice that had these people were reading from scripts, these scripts were written for them. You are correct that it was much more the show that Donald Trump wanted to see and the lines that he wanted to hear uttered. A lot of that was because Bruce Castor had such a calamitous outing on Tuesday when the trial opened.

The president was -- former president was very angry but candidly most people were criticizing that performance. They were something of a sideshow, though, you're right. I do think that Tuesday, there were some people in Trump land who were worried that because Bruce Castor had had such a bad out that go they could lose some additional votes among Republicans.

We will never know if that's why Cassidy voted the way that he did, for instance, from Louisiana, but this was definitely a concern and now they are just happy this is over and this is not a team that I expect ever to want to work together again.

PHILLIP: Yeah. I would not be surprised by that. You know, Manu, you know, I wondered if at the end of the day -- I think a lot of people thought there was probably no legal argument that mattered, there were Republicans that made up their mind.

Mitch McConnell split the baby a little bit. Do you think that he still has sufficient control over the senate, having done what he did, or are we looking at people like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley and others really taking the Trump mantel and carrying it forward in that chamber?

RAJU: Well, I think that McConnell is fine in terms of the power he has over the Senate Republican conference. I mean, if he were to vote to convict that would have been a much different equation, you know, I reported several weeks ago as he was toying with the idea of conviction or he was making clear that he thought that what Donald Trump did amounted to an impeachable offense that some of his colleagues were saying privately and some publicly that they could not support him for leader if he were to vote to convict.

And, undoubtedly, Mitch McConnell has his finger on the pulse of his conference, he is the longest serving Republican leader in history and will continue to be so because he took the politically easy vote, which was to vote to acquit.

Now, for the rest of those Republican senators, you mentioned Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, et cetera, they clearly have aligned themselves with the Trump camp, they are not -- they don't have any regret for their role in trying to overturn the election results on January 6th. Someone like a Senator Josh Hawley I've talked to multiple times since the January 6th riot and his efforts in that and he has shown no regret whatsoever.

That does play to what the segment of the Republican base, but the calculation from a lot of Republican senators -- the Republican senators who voted to either convict or impeach in the house is they believe that that Trump support, that holdover, that faction of the base and the base as a whole will continually diminish over time.

Will that be in time for the 2022 midterms? I think that's still an open question.

PHILLIP: On the outside, though, there's a parallel story happening, Maggie. You know, the Dem managers warned that Trump could do this again and you have people like Nikki Haley and Lisa Murkowski also voicing those concerns.

Peter Baker on Thursday spoke to Karl Rove who said Trump is tarnished for all time and incapable of running in 2024. The question is how much power to dominate the GOP will have drained away by this time this is over.

What do you think, Maggie, about this question? I mean, is this push back from people like Nikki Haley, Karl Rove and others significant enough to push Trump into a corner?

HABERMAN: I don't know that it's enough to push him into a corner, I do think it is enough to send a signal to other Republicans that they don't have to, you know, fear Trump the way they once did and I do think that McConnell's speech was aimed in part at reassuring suburbanites, reassuring donors who may be concerned about the party after what took place on January 6th and who have said they don't want to donate anymore to senators who voted, you know, in favor of pushing back or denying the certification of the vote on January 6th.

I think that rove is right that Trump is drained just because I don't think he -- I don't agree with him the extent of it, but I do think Trump is going to discover that he is diminished from what he was. He can issue all the statements he wants saying I beat this impeachment for a second time. Acquittal in a Senate trial does not erase the charge from the house.

He is still the only president in history who has been impeached twice and the videos that were shown during this trial were very damaging to him. They just were.

PHILLIP: And as you pointed out, big questions about Trump's ability to actually carry out these threats that he is so eager to put out there on the table.

[08:25:00]

Maggie Haberman, Manu Raju, thanks both of you for joining us this morning.

And up next, we will talk about the trial and the acquittal with Congressman Jason Crow, a manager on President Trump's first impeachment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Three hundred and seventy-four days after President Trump's first impeachment trial, this round of impeachment managers sounded some very similar warnings about the dangers for his future actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Is there any political leader in this room who believes if he is ever allowed by the Senate to get back into the Oval Office Donald Trump would stop inciting violence to get his way? Would you bet the lives of more police officers on that? Would you bet the safety of your family on that? Would you bet the future of your democracy on that?

If he gets back into office and it happens again, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And joining us now, Congressman Jason Crow who was an impeachment manager during Trump's first impeachment trial in the Senate a year ago now.

Congressman Crow, thanks for being with us.

You warned during that first impeachment trial that this basically was a risk, that Trump would be a threat to the country again.

[08:29:44]

And this time around, the case seems to be so much easier. It was an accusation that he incited an insurrection and a riot on the Capitol. 100 senators were witnesses, the House of Representatives also witnesses, and yet he wasn't convicted.

Are you concerned that the impeachment power has basically been watered down and that presidents just no longer can be held accountable for their actions anymore?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Good morning, Abby. Thanks for having me on. You know, we did make that warning. Anybody who has been paying attention and is looking at this clear-eyed over the last four years knows exactly who Donald Trump is.

We know that he's dangerous. We know that he's not well. We know that he lies constantly and that he is a danger to the republic. We knew that a year ago and we know that to this day.

He will never learn his lesson. There's nothing that will make a man like Donald Trump learn his lesson. We have to learn our lesson and we have to do what's necessary to protect the country and to move on.

The impeachment power remains alive and well. What we've seen over the last couple of years is a failure of leadership within Congress and at many levels of our government, people that have not upheld their duty to do what they need to do for the good of the country and they have instead opted to focus on their own personal political power and advancement. That's what's going on here.

But there were 57 senators that made the right decision and stood up and we can work with that. We can work with those folks and we can move the country forward.

PHILLIP: Still a far cry from the 67 needed, though, and it seems like getting to super majorities in the senate is harder than ever before.

But you know, going back to the day itself, January 6th, you were there in that chamber. You are also an army ranger and your training kicked in as you were trying to help your colleagues and people put on their gas masks.

When you heard the evidence that was put into the record yesterday from Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler, that when the president called Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy he said to McCarthy, "Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are."

What was your reaction having been in that chamber under siege on January 6th?

CROW: Yes, January 6 was a horrific day, it was a very tough day. Never in a million years would I have thought that I would be in the same position in the House of Representatives as a congressman in 2021 and feeling the same way that I felt when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we were.

And hearing Ms. Herrera Beutler's recount of that conversation between Kevin McCarthy and Donald Trump actually didn't surprise me, which is kind of shocking in its own right, that a president would be promoting and inciting and advancing an insurrection and not feel a thing about it. But I'm not surprised because I know who this president is.

But again, you know, the challenge is how do we move forward? You know, how do we recognize that our democracy simply isn't a set of documents and processes and laws. Our democracy is actually people that just decide to carry it forward and defend it generation after generation. And it is only one generation away from vanishing at any one moment.

So we have to defend it, we have to make sure that we are using this opportunity -- this opportunity to show that, you know, we are vulnerable, to actually rebolster and recommit to it.

And I think that at the end of the day that's the story of this impeachment trial that the story of the Trump era is having the honest conversations about how we move forward and how we do better.

PHILLIP: Congresswoman Herrera Beutler was willing to testify and the impeachment managers made a move to potentially have her do that. You've been down this road before when it comes to witnesses.

Was it a mistake though, not to call a willing witness to come before the chamber and actually give her account?

CROW: Well, Abby, there's three things that I know, number one, there's always more to these things than meets the eye. You know, it's tough to Monday morning -- or in this case Sunday morning quarterback, but I don't know what was happening behind those doors and what negotiations happened. So I'm going to refrain from saying what the impeachment managers should and shouldn't have done.

You know, the other thing that I know is that these senators were victims of the crime. And the case was being held at the crime scene and if actually experiencing that crime themselves wasn't enough for them to come over and convict. I'm not sure any sworn testimony would have got that done.

And the third thing is there was overwhelming evidence shown, direct evidence, video, that we all saw. This was a crime that played out on live TV. So there was plenty of evidence to convict Donald Trump here, but, you know, not enough for those who are more interested in their personal advancement, who are more interested in their own political power than doing the right thing.

And I think for those folks no sworn testimony would have changed the calculus for them. We just have to make sure that we're dealing with those people differently going forward than we do today.

[08:34:48]

PHILLIP: Speaking of evidence, you know, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell suggested that Trump could face criminal prosecution. That he was, quote, "still liable" for the things that he did and that he didn't get away with anything yet.

Do you think that that is a real possibility here, that a criminal court would actually take this up, would take the evidence that was laid out in this impeachment hearing and use it as a roadmap to convict Trump for his actions before, during and even after the January 6 riot? CROW: Well, I haven't done the constitutional analysis on what a

former president would be culpable for or liable for in this case, but you know, what I do know is that no man or woman in America is above the law. You know, that's our system. We don't have kings, we don't have queens. Nobody is above the law, including a president and former president.

And there are investigations that are ongoing and those investigations will continue. They will continue for the rioters and the terrorists that assaulted the Capitol and they will see who else was involved and helped promote things that day.

I mean we are looking at a money trail, enormous amount of money that flowed into January 6, buses that were used to move people that day, obviously conspiracies involving the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters. There were a lot of things that happened.

The FBI, other agencies will be looking at it very hard in the months and years to come and we will get justice. It may not come right away, but we will get information.

And as we said a year ago during our last trial, history will show what happened. You know, history is going to bear all of this out. And that's why it was so important that those who did come across and vote to convict made the right move. They chose the right side of history here and the others did not.

PHILLIP: Congressman Jason Crow, thank you for being with us this morning. We appreciate you taking the time to join us.

CROW: Thank you.

PHILLIP: And up next, Republicans face a fractured party after Trump's impeachment and the insurrection.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: In the six weeks since the horrific attack on the U.S. Capitol carried out by supporters of former president Donald Trump the Republican Party's popularity has been in decline.

In November 44 percent of Americans viewed the party favorably. Today that number stands at 37 percent.

Voters are also abandoning the party in significant numbers. According to "The New York Times" 140,000 people in 25 states left the Republican Party last month. That's more than 10,000 in Arizona who also changed their registration and Biden won the state by about that margin in November.

But Republicans in Congress know that the base is still very much loyal to the man who once was president and even if they don't make a stand on -- even if they make stands like this on the floor.

[08:39:50]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: This was an intensifying crescendo of conspiracy theories orchestrated by outgoing president who seemed determined to either overturn the voters' decision or else torch our institutions on the way out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: In the end the majority of Republicans including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell did (ph) vote to acquit. And joining me now former Pennsylvania Congressman Charlie Dent and Republican strategist Alice Stewart, both CNN political commentators as well. Thanks both of you for being with us.

So Alice, you know, despite those numbers in the last few weeks there are clearly no signs that senators and the grassroots are ready to really leave Trump. Only about 5 percent of the House and 14 percent of the senate Republicans voted to impeach or to convict him.

Meanwhile, "The Washington Post" is reporting that state and local committees, GOP committees, are attacking any Republicans who dare to turn on Trump. We've seen that even as recently as yesterday.

But in your view has Trump actually shrunk the Republican Party, you know, limiting its appeal beyond the base?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that we're seeing evidence of that based on the fact that in his leadership as president we lost the House, we lost the Senate and obviously lost the White House.

But I think the key is for people not to just simply look at Trump's base and Trump's following as a cult of personality. He have to look at what he did. He was able to change what has happened for years in the GOP where we have had the donor class and the wealthy class and the party leaders really for years have just given lip service to the voting class and what Donald Trump did is he listened to the voters in the Republican Party and followed through with the policies that they wanted, that were important to them.

Instead of just pacifying them in the election, he followed through when he was in office. And that is the key moving forward. And I think he will still have a disproportionate role in politics if he wants to, but that will wane over time because we'll have other voices come forward and say we need someone that will connect with him on the policies but do so in a more Reagan-like tone and tenor.

PHILLIP: But Alice, I have to say, I mean is it really about the policies or is it about the personality? Because it seems very much that Trump supporters, you know, they care more about the man than they do about fiscal conservatism, whatever it is that Republicans are -- have historically supported.

STEWART: Well, for a lot of people it is about the man. But for most people it's about the policies and the only way we're going to continue to grow the numbers and move forward and take back the House in 2022, which is -- should be priority number one for Republicans -- if we get back to the policies that are the foundation of the Republican Party.

So many people are looking ahead to 2024. We have a short-term goal that we need to accomplish. I'm encouraged to hear that Lindsey Graham has a plan to meet with the former president and say, look, you need to stop your revenge tour and have your band of brothers go out there and simply run against and primary everyone who has done or said anything against you. We need to work together as a party.

I think Republicans have learned their lesson, having no control right now in Washington, that we need to do it by focusing on the policies over personality.

PHILLIP: Charlie, you know, this week ambassador -- former ambassador Nikki Haley and a presidential hopeful in 2024 herself tried to distance herself from Trump. And she said in an interview that "We need to acknowledge that he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have and we shouldn't have followed him. And we shouldn't have listened to him. And we can't let that ever happen again."

But a few weeks ago here is what she also said to Fox News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: It's funny for everyone trying to determine where the party goes, we

should not want to go back to the Republican Party before Trump. We gained a lot of people that were unheard, unseen, many of who -- like I grew up in South Carolina -- had just been misunderstood. we want to keep them in the party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Charlie, she seems a little confused about where she wants to be on this issue. But is it a reflection of just the uncertainty among Republicans right now about how to move forward?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No question that Nikki Haley seems to be conflicted about where the party should go. I'm glad that belatedly she has come around and has acknowledged what many of us have been stating for some time. That we are tired of the cronyism, the nihilism, the nativism and those who are advocating this instability.

And you know, I think going forward a lot of us don't want this party to be led by those who are handmaidens to the big lie and to the insurrection. You know, this party cannot be about instability and insurrection.

We need to get back to a center right agenda. And I think this is much bigger than policy at the moment. Our objective now is to clean up the Republican Party and make it something that we can be proud of again.

[08:44:51] DENT: But right now we are in a very bad spot. I mean, how do you have a party where you have Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and Mitt Romney and Pat Toomey; and then you have the Marjorie Taylor Greene wing who are advocating these Qanon conspiracy theories and other types of radical extremists who showed up at the insurrection on January 6th.

PHILLIP: Charlie, on that point quickly before we go you've been in some conversations this week about a potential third party, a new Republican Party effectively. But the concern I think from some Republicans will be wouldn't that just make it harder for Republicans to win? You're syphoning votes away from the GOP for this third-party effort?

DENT: Let me be very clear. We were part of a conversation that talked about a new direction. Everybody agreed. I was of the opinion we need to create a new -- a new center-right initiative on our own within the GOP or perhaps outside the GOP.

Some very much want -- very much want a new party. So some of us were talking about this wing that would be -- that is going to try to force the GOP to a better place. We are not going to be taken for granted.

So if there's going to be a race between say, Mark Kelly and Kelly Ward in Arizona, a lot of our folks are going to say, you know what, we're going to be part of the Mark Kelly team in that case.

So really right now it's about what type of party we want to be going forward. I'm not advocating third party. But I think we need a new direction and we think we can do this within the GOP or perhaps independent of it. But it's up to the party right now where they want to go.

PHILLIP: Thanks Charlie and Alice Stewart, both of you. I appreciate you being with us today.

And up next --

STEWART: Thanks Abby.

PHILLIP: -- President Biden's promises that there will be enough vaccine for everyone in the U.S. who wants them, but the question is when?

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[08:49:52]

PHILLIP: Good news this week on the fight against COVID-19, daily new cases keep falling. They are now at the lowest level since October and deaths are finally falling, too.

The vaccinations are picking up and we're averaging more than 1.6 million shots a day and 11 percent of the country has received at least one dose. But there is still not enough vaccine for everyone who wants it. But the Biden administration announced on Thursday that his administration has bought enough doses to cover all adults in the U.S. by July.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I became president three weeks ago, America had no plan to vaccinate most of the country. It was a big mess.

We have now purchased enough vaccine supply to vaccinate all Americans. And now we're working to get those vaccines into the arms of millions of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That last part is the part that may be the hardest, turning the vaccines into actual vaccinations. And joining us now Dr. Leana wen, the former Baltimore health commissioner and a CNN medical analyst.

Dr. Wen, thanks for being here this morning. So we've got some good news here, more vaccines are coming, but we're also hearing that these more contagious variants may also be more lethal and spreading fast in the U.S. Can we actually stay ahead of that trend?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I really hope so, Abby. And I think we're at a cross-roads here because on the one hand we're seeing as you mentioned declining numbers of infections and hospitalizations. And we're getting the vaccines to be rolled out more rapidly. That's great.

But I'm also very worried about these variants because we have seen in other countries what happens when there is explosive spread of these more contagious variants that despite lockdowns there had been overwhelmed hospitals and other surges that we have actually seen before, but it could happen here again.

So I think it's really critical for us to ramp up vaccinations as much as we can and in the meantime do our best to continue with masking, physical distancing, these other measures that we know to be really important in controlling the spread of infection.

PHILLIP: And ultimately the goal here is getting to herd immunity at some point. According to a "Washington Post" analysis, if we stay at the current pace that we're at, which is about 1.5 million shots a day, we are not going to get to herd immunity until at least the end of this year. But if we double that rate we can get there by July. Do you think that that is doable, three million shots a day by July 10th according to this analysis?

DR. WEN: Look, we need to ramp up vaccinations a lot more than they currently are and we can think about it as three different bottlenecks. one is supply, the second is distribution and the third is acceptance.

Right now the demand for the vaccine far outstrips supply. And so we really need to be working on the supply aspect and we need to work on getting as many vaccination sites as possible. So can we get to 3 million by July? I hope so, but I also think that the Biden administration needs to set their target much higher, setting the target at 100 million in 100 days we have already surpassed this. We now need to see what the goal should be and I believe that that goal should be 3 million a day.

PHILLIP: Yes. You know, one of the other parallel things the Biden administration is working on, of course, is the issue of schools and they're not separate by any means.

They released these long-awaited guidelines from the CDC about how schools can reopen, they're saying that if you require mask wearing, physical distancing, encouraging frequent hand washing and improving ventilation and performing contact tracing in schools and isolation of any positive cases, you can get to open schools. But not on that list is universal vaccinations for teachers and staff or regular required testing.

You know, Dr. Wen, you have weighed in on this issue and have some pretty specific criticisms for what is missing in the guidelines. But there's also this element of it that is about the transmission rates.

Where do you think the guidelines are right now in terms of whether they have put enough out there that schools can actually meet it, or do you think that they have kind of lowered the bar here for what schools need to do to get reopened as quickly as possible?

DR. WEN: So I think that the guidelines are good and problematic at the same time. Where it's good is specifically defining what are the levels of transmission at which different mitigation measures need to be put in place.

That kind of specific guidance is really important for schools and I think it's time for us to have a national strategy. So I think that part is good.

Where it, I think, has some concerns for me is, first of all, in areas of low and moderate transmission the CDC is not requiring 6 feet distance which is very concerning.

The other part you mentioned ventilation, actually the CDC guidance says very little about ventilation beyond try to open doors and windows. I just worry that the reason why you don't see distancing and ventilation as requirements is more based on expediency than actually based on science and health.

[08:55:02]

DR. WEN: And the final part about teacher vaccinations, I don't really understand why we're even having a debate about this. Of course, teacher vaccinations are essential. If we want students to be in school for in-person learning, the least that we can do is to protect the health and well-being of our teachers, especially as in so many parts of the country teachers are already being made to go back to school in poorly-ventilated, cramped areas with many students who may not always be masking and practicing physical distancing. Why are we even arguing about whether teacher vaccinations should be required?

PHILLIP: Well, this is obviously something that is still a live ball for the Biden administration.

Dr. Wen, thanks for your input on all of that.

And that's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. Join us back here every Sunday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern time. And the weekday show as well at noon Eastern time.

And up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Jake's guests this week include House impeachment manager Stacey Plaskett, Senator Chris Murphy, Governor Larry Hogan and CDC Director Rochelle Walensky.

Thanks again for being with us this morning. Have a great rest of your Sunday.

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