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Prosecution Questions Minneapolis Police Homicide Lieutenant; Biden "Looking Forward" To Meeting With GOP On Infrastructure Plan. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 02, 2021 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

LT. RICHARD ZIMMERMAN, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE HOMICIDE OFFICER: That's correct.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Such as roping off or tying off the tape or taping off the scene, I should say, right?

ZIMMERMAN: Putting up crunching tapes, yes.

NELSON: Yes. Not permitting citizens to come wandering through the scene, right?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes, yes.

NELSON: Canvassing the area, I think you said. And ultimately, your role in this particular case was limited to a couple of hours of time making sure those things were done and until BCA agents arrive and you handed off the scene, right?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes, that's correct.

NELSON: All right. And it was -- it was not until later that you were asked to review the body worn cameras of the officers and consider the use of force, right?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

NELSON: And it would not be within your normal role or job duties to do such a use of force analysis, right?

ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.

NELSON: I have no further questions.

ZIMMERMAN: Redirect.

MATTHEW FRANK, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: Lieutenant Zimmerman, you had the opportunity to review the body worn cameras from --

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: -- officers involved? ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Did that also capture the bystanders on the sidewalk during the incident?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Was there something about that group of bystanders that in your assessment was sort of an uncontrollable threat to the officers at the same?

ZIMMERMAN: No.

FRANK: Would there be a way, well, I mean, I'll ask it this way. What -- would there be other ways for officers to deal with bystanders?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And could that include calling for backup?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: With the presence of multiple officers at a scene be a relevant fact for an officer to consider when using an amount of force on a handcuffed and restrained subject?

ZIMMERMAN: No. It should be.

FRANK: Well, but if there's some concern about the crowd, would it be relevant that there were other officers already at the scene?

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, I see. Yes, no, it doesn't matter the crowd, as long as they're not attacking you. The crowd really doesn't shouldn't have an effect on your actions.

FRANK: You were asked if the use of force training has changed over time.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: OK. But you still get the most up to date training every year when you go to the use of force training?

ZIMMERMAN: I do. Yes.

FRANK: And you were asked about, you know, has the academy changed since you went to the academy?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And you haven't been through the academy since then, correct?

ZIMMERMAN: Right. Yes.

FRANK: But, you know, some familiarity with how the academy trains new officers. ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely.

FRANK: And you think that Academy training provides appropriate training for officers?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes. It should.

FRANK: And would provide the most up to date training on the use of force for Minneapolis officers that take the academy type of training?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: You were asked if you are a trainer and you are not a use of force trainer.

ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.

FRANK: You are a student?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Yes, of course. And but it's your testimony that based on all the training you go through every year, it's well known that the prone position is dangerous.

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely, yes.

FRANK: It doesn't take a trainer to be able to say that, you've learned it.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And that's been something that's been trained. You were asked about the critical decision making model.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Familiar with that from your training?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And part of that is continually reassessing the need for force.

[12:35:02]

ZIMMERMAN: Correct.

FRANK: It's a fair statement.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And so that would include reassessing the location?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: The tactical advantage? ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Conceal and cover?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Scene security?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Security and scene?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Or security of the scene?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Medical distress of the person restrained?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: When you watch the body camera videos, did those videos capture those types of circumstances relative to the restraints of Mr. Floyd?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: And you were able to assess those things and telling the jury what you thought earlier about the restraint on Mr. Floyd?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: When you watch those videos at some point during the restraint, did you see Mr. Floyd kicking the officers?

ZIMMERMAN: No, I didn't.

FRANK: May have happened initially. But after that, did you see any kicking?

ZIMMERMAN: No, none.

FRANK: Defense counsel asked you about the concept of holding for EMS?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: So sometimes it's necessary to keep the person there so they can receive medical treatment?

ZIMMERMAN: That's correct.

FRANK: Does holding for EMS excuse an officer from providing medical attention that they've been trained to provide?

ZIMMERMAN: No, it doesn't.

FRANK: Does holding for EMS excuse officers from continuing to use this decision making model about the use of force?

ZIMMERMAN: No, it doesn't.

FRANK: Does holding for EMS excuse officers from using other resources like other officers at the scene?

ZIMMERMAN: No.

FRANK: You're asked about handcuffs? If handcuffs are not properly locked, can they tighten?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

FRANK: Can they loosen them?

ZIMMERMAN: I'm sorry?

FRANK: If they're properly connected, can they loosen them. If then come open, but if they're locked, can they still tighten?

ZIMMERMAN: That's right.

FRANK: If they're not, I think the term is double locked.

ZIMMERMAN: Right. Yes.

FRANK: Based on your review of the body cams, did you see any need for Officer Chauvin to improvise by putting his knee on Mr. Floyd for nine minutes and 29 seconds?

ZIMMERMAN: No, I did not.

FRANK: I have nothing further, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any requests?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you Lieutenant. You may step down. Thank you. Counsel Cyber (ph)?

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Lieutenant Richard Zimmerman leaving the stand in the trial of Derek Chauvin. This is day five of testimony, day 17 of the trial overall, a particularly damning and compelling testimony today from Lieutenant Zimmerman who is the senior most officer, senior most officer on the Minneapolis Police Department.

Let's bring in our legal analysts who've been watching this trial, our legal analyst Laura Coates, a former federal prosecutor, and Charles Ramsey, the former chief of the police department here in the District of Columbia and the commissioner in Philadelphia as well. Laura Coates the jury hearing repeatedly from the most senior officer currently on the Minneapolis police force saying that he was trained every year and they are told him that training putting a suspect down prone is dangerous. Putting a knee on a suspect's neck can be deadly, that you must use those efforts that use of force only in the most extreme of circumstances. And Lieutenant Zimmerman repeatedly saying that from all the video he has seen, he sees no such circumstance that Mr. Floyd was in custody. He was no longer resisting compelling testimony.

And I just want to say, Laura, as you come in, the judge right now is excusing the jury for the day. So the first week of prosecution testimony is ending now. The jury is going home for the weekend. Let's listen to the judge say goodbye to the jury.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- 9:30 but let's shoot for 9:15. All right, thank you have a good weekend.

KING: All right, I just wanted to make sure there were no last housekeeping measures there, the judge letting the jury out a bit early today so that they can have some time on this Easter weekend. Laura Coates back to your takeaway listening to the repeated testimony, the very common methodical testimony of Lieutenant Zimmerman.

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Make no mistake about it, John. This was damning testimony. This blows out of the water, the notion that Derek Chauvin was trained to do that which he did that somehow it was part and parcel baked into the recipe of every police training, everyone knows that you do this.

[12:40:14]

And remember, they were trying to distinguish between what bystanders who don't have police training, the MMA fighter, what he does or does not know, his training at the police academy. It distinguish between the off duty Minneapolis firefighter who was trying to implore them to also allow her to render aid, distinguishing the EMT workers who are not trained as police officers. Then you go into the officers who are saying, actually, this is not how we're trained. And this particular Lieutenant saying, since at least 1985, he has been repeatedly trained that you know that somebody who's in the prone position or handcuffed is going to have difficulty breathing, move him immediately.

Also saying that once somebody is handcuffed, he clarified, the threat is essentially gone. Yes, they may be able to kick you. But the use of deadly force is no longer needed here. And so you have all of these things. The only thing the defense was able to try to do was try to suggest and insinuate that because of his tenure, because he's a veteran police officer and a homicide detective, and no longer a patrol beat cop, that somehow he was out of touch on the use of force. Somehow he has no idea what altercations look like nowadays.

If you think about it, John, how outlandish that is. Yes, officer training has changed since 1985. Yes, weapons have changed since 1985. But the human neck, the human knee, and our ability to respirate has not changed since at least 1985.

KING: And Chief Ramsey the importance of this for the prosecution is you're trying to win over the jury, and you can't lose jurors on this question, was Officer Chauvin acting in his view in a reasonable way with this use of force? Or was this just beyond the pale? The prosecution saying nine minutes and 29 seconds no longer any resistance. What power did you put in the testimony of this veteran officer, again repeatedly being asked and repeatedly saying, I just don't see it. This situation was under control. And we were well past the point where any force anywhere near what we were seeing could be necessary.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, he's a seasoned law enforcement veteran. I mean, he's the most senior person in the entire department. He's been on the job since 1981. He has spent a considerable amount of time in homicide. So he is very familiar with investigating situations in which people have lost their lives.

You know, I was just thinking when he said police training has changed. Well, yes, it's changed. I mean, I went to police academy 50 years ago, 1971, as a rookie police officer, and even then, we were not trained to put our knee on somebody's neck for nine minutes. I mean, if anything, training and police policy and procedure has gotten more restrictive in terms of use of force, the training is light years better than it used to be.

I mean, if anything, the needle has moved in a positive direction, not a negative direction. And the actions of Chauvin are just unjustifiable, even when the defense is raising all these, you know, hypotheticals, what if this, what if that. It has nothing to do with what actually took place on May 25th of last year, absolutely nothing. This case has to stand on its own. And his use of force in that situation has to stand on its own based on the facts and circumstances of that case, not the what if, what could have, should have, what took place that day, and why did he use the level of force that he used for that sustained period of time, is that consistent with policy and training? The answer to that is, no.

KING: And so Laura Coates, we are now at the end of the first week of testimony, five days of trial testimony, 17 days if you go back to some of the pretrial hearings, and the selection of the jury and all that, but five days now for these jurors who go home for the weekend. I want to walk through some of what played out during the week. But I want to start with this, especially as we watched Lieutenant Zimmerman finished his testimony, then the cross examination, and then the redirect from the prosecutor.

One of the challenges for a prosecutor, you can plan everything the night before, you can work with your witness the night before, but then you have to react. You have to be nimble and react to what you saw. And you mentioned the Defense Attorney Eric Nelson, he's trying -- he's doing the best he can there with the material he has trying to say to your point. Well, you've been on the desk for a long time. You're not in a patrol car. You're not a guy getting -- you're jumping out of a patrol car in these tens situations.

It's been a long time since you've been on the street, you know, in the rough and tumble, if you will. And so then the prosecutor has to get back up as Mr. Frank did then walking through. Well, let's go through this. Again, just your sense, your grading of the prosecution, and their nimbleness in reacting. COATES: I think they were great at being nimble at this because of course, they're not only up against trying to have the explanation to layman about what is actually a common sense issue. They don't have to prove things that the average person would not be able to understand. The average person has a neck and a knee and understand the constriction of breathing. The average person would be able to understand what you would not advise your own child to do in rough play or otherwise.

[12:45:01]

And so he's really trying to point out methodically. And I understand the constraints and the defense. And again, John, we have yet to see the defense case, or the battle of the experts on that substantial causal factor of death and the autopsy, medical examiner. But so far, the prosecutors are buttressed in their ability to understand common sense.

And what jurors are thinking here, you've got this idea, what I thought was very striking was that every single law enforcement officer that we've seen so far normally hear about this word of blue code of silence and trying to protect one of their own. You saw a distancing of a 10 foot pole away from Derek Chauvin not trying to filter their testimony through the filter of hey, look, he's one of us, I can understand what he did. No, they were quite forthright and resolute about this officer being rogue in a sense.

So I think that's very powerful. And going into a weekend time is going to be the best friend of the prosecution because for all these questions that have not been answered as to what would it have taken to taken his pulse, to take his -- your knee off him? What did it take to do those things? That's lingering in the jurors mind for Friday, for Saturday, for Sunday, into Monday. And we have no indication that the defense case going to happen next week. This is going to stew and fester and not to the benefit of Derek Chauvin.

KING: And Chief to that point, you're watching as an expert, somebody as you just mentioned, five decades of experience in law enforcement, you're also watching as a human being as this plays out. To Laura's point, the prosecution hopes that it won the first week, it knows this is a long journey. It knows the defense, you know, the prosecution controls the pace and the witness list right now the defense will get that choice.

But just from watching throughout the week, yourself, if you were a juror, are you going home with questions? The prosecution left me wondering this, are you going home thinking so far, these guys have made a compelling case?

RAMSEY: Well, the prosecution has made a compelling case and the defense is fortunate that it's not wrapping up today, that there's still more to come because quite frankly, they don't really have a leg to stand on right now in my opinion. I do think it's going to come down to the more expert witnesses, especially the autopsy report, medical examiner, you know, what was the cause of death, was the actions of Chauvin a substantial contributing factor to his cause of death.

You know, once you go through the whole thing about his enlarged heart and drugs and so forth, you know. And that's going to be critical in who wins that battle. And that's going to decide this case, in my opinion, because I think clearly, as far as what we've seen so far, and what we've heard so far, this isn't something that they're going to be able to say at the end of the day that was consistent with his training and with policy of the Minneapolis Police Department. They've lost that one.

They can only hope now that when the expert witnesses come forward and they will find somebody to testify more in their favor in terms of that medical examiners report. I think everything's going to wind up pinging on that.

KING: Chief Ramsey, Laura Coates, grateful for your time and insights throughout this first week of testimony. We'll continue the conversation next week, of course, as the trial resumes, so I'm grateful for your help in this important first week.

[12:48:03]

Up next for us, some other big news today and big upbeat economic numbers, 916,000 jobs added just last month, the pandemic recovery, gaining steam.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The March jobs numbers out from the government this morning and they are beating expectations, employment growth booming last month at the fastest pace since last summer. Employers you see it right there, adding 916,000 jobs the unemployment rate nationally dropping from 6.2 percent to 6 percent. President Biden responding to this encouraging news just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We saw the economy gaining traction in March as the American rescue plan moved got past bringing new hope to our country. Next week, over 130 million households will have gotten their $1,400 per person rescue check. Funds are on their way to local communities to put educators, health care workers, home health care aides, police, firefighters, sanitary workers, back on the job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: But the President insists the economy needs more help for down the road. He went on to pitch his big infrastructure plan. President saying he is not at the moment giving up on getting Republican support for that piece of the package. Joining me now with more, our senior White House correspondent, Phil Mattingly. Phil, that strikes me as more aspirational than a reasonable expectation.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, optimism abounds, which is very on brand for President Biden, when you talk to senior White House officials, they make clear pretty much regardless of the situation. He is taking an optimistic viewpoint and he's going to need one when it comes to gaining Republican support for this proposal.

Keep in mind the $2.25 trillion infrastructure in job package is just the first piece of a two pronged plan that in total, will lead to spending over $4 trillion I'm told. However, is you note, the President making clear, he's not giving hope -- giving up hope with Republicans take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: When Congress comes back after this Easter break, I'm going to begin meeting with Democrats, Republicans about this plan. I've spoken to Republicans on the phone. I've been looking forward to meeting with them. They all have their ideas about what it will take, what they like and what they don't like. That's a good thing. That's the American way, debate is welcome. Congress should debate my plan, change and offer alternatives if they think that's what they have to do. But Congress should act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: You know, John, I think you listen to that last point and it's a crucial point, because regardless of whether or not Republicans wants to come on board or decide to come on board, the White House is full go, full steam ahead on trying to get this through. And if that means Democrats only, White House officials telling me that that is the route they will take.

However, as the President noted, he plans to meet with Republicans as soon as next week. He wants to have them in the Oval Office. He has five designated Cabinet secretaries already in contact with key senior Republicans in both the House and the Senate. Those meetings are expected to continue next week as well. So they're going to put an effort in here.

[12:55:01]

I think the biggest question right now or if you just want to bottom line things, Republicans rejected what the President outlined on Wednesday just out of hand making very clear physical infrastructure, happy to talk, everything else you have in the plan, absolutely not. And it's that everything else you have in the plan that the White House officials are very enthused about at this point in time, the shifting the paradigm, the President often talks about, that's everything else in the plan. And that John is something I'm told the White House just simply has no plans to back off of anytime soon.

KING: It's a fascinating moment, Phil. They think they have the leverage. And when you have rising job numbers in the country, lower unemployment rate in the country that helps a new president try to make his case. We'll see if he can thread the needle. Phil Mattingly live at the White House, appreciate it very much.

And thank you, grateful for your time today on Inside Politics. We'll see you back here on Monday. Have a great Easter weekend, Erica Hill picks up our coverage after a quick break.

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