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Defense Medical Expert: Sudden Cardiac Event Killed George Floyd; Prosecution & Defense Compare Chauvin's Actions To "Reasonable" Officer; Pathology Expert: Floyd Died of Cardiac Arrhythmia Brought By Arterial Clogging, During Restraint; Officer Who Killed Daunte Wright Charged With 2nd Degree Manslaughter. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired April 14, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing very consequential day with us.

It is day 13 of testimony in the trial of Derek Chauvin, the defense now making its case trying to lay out an alternative cause of death for George Floyd. Prosecution witnesses remember testified again and again, that Chauvin's neck restraint, deprive Mr. Floyd of oxygen and lead directly to George Floyd's demise. A defense expert today though, says he sees something different.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DAVID FOWLER, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, MD DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Mr. Floyd had a sudden cardiac arrhythmia or cardiac arrhythmia due to his atherosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease or you can write that down multiple different ways during his restraint and subdual by the police or restraint by the police.

And then his significant contributory conditions would be since I've already put the heart disease in part one. He would have the toxicology the fentanyl and methamphetamine. There is exposure to a vehicle exhaust. So potentially carbon monoxide poisoning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's discuss what we've heard so far today and why it matters? CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Former Federal Prosecutor Laura Coates is with us also Cedric Alexander. He's the Former President of the National Association, National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

Laura, so this has been the defense strategy. It was something else. It was not Derek Chauvin. It was something else. And this medical expert, a former medical examiner in the State of Maryland, saying enlarged heart, blocked arteries, drug use. He's essentially saying it's all of the above, but it's not opposite Chauvin in his view. LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know why this is, as a prosecutor, you look at this and how they have preempted all of these things is not the first time we're hearing about an enlarged heart. Not the first time we're hearing about druggies. It's not the first time we're hearing about any of these conditions.

And so the prosecution did a great job of pre empting through really powerful expert testimony to counter what is being said right now. But also the word during John, did you hear him say all of this happened during the restraint, you know, as opposed to saying that the restraint actually caused and words are really important to jurors.

This idea here that's being planted this scene is that he happened to die because of these underlying conditions during a police restraint. It's almost like an afterthought. And that's not a winning strategy. When we know that we've got 9 minutes and 29 seconds worth of video.

We that all the law enforcement officers who have testified those who know precisely what the training is, we've heard from a pulmonologist, a cardiologist, a forensic pathologist, the medical examiner who did the autopsy, none of whom had a dismissive tone about, oh, this happened during the restraint, this happened because of the restraint.

And that is what I think they have to try to counter against, and they're not doing a good job of doing that at all.

KING: It's an excellent point, the cumulative testimony of the other experts, Cedric, is what the defense is trying to overcome here. And we'll see what happens. This witness is still on the stand, he's still being examined right now, direct examination by the defense counsel, the prosecution will get to cross examine.

But as you listen that we know it all along, Eric Nelson has tried to present you know, an alternative theory of the case from the beginning. And while the prosecution needs to win the entire jury, he just needs to win one or two.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES: Yes, that may be true. But you know, here's the case, I think at the end of the day, what's going to be most convincing in this case to those jurors, is going to be what they have already heard, as Laura has already indicated.

They saw a presentation from the prosecution that clearly, clearly articulated the science down to the millisecond of what occurred with George Floyd on May 25th. What we're seeing is a defense, literally a defense.

And as of this morning, looking at this expert witness that's on the stand now, looking at him listening to him, a very well certified, well respected physician, but at the same time, is not making the point about what it is that we all solve for those nine plus minutes.

And that is what's going to be the most important part of this case to me. You know, John, I sit here as a former police officer, thinking about the number of physical fights I've had over the years in my career, where we had to take someone to a ground or whatever the case may happen to be.

But when a person states to you that's in your custody, that you have handcuffed, they may be standing up a wreck, but even if they suggest they don't feel well they feel hurt. You get them medical care.

[12:05:00]

That is what's going to be so basic and fundamental care. It is great that we have the scientists in front of us. But you - people are going to look at the basic fundamental elements of what happened? What they're looking at with their own eyes, in their eyes are telling them, their minds and their hearts are telling them something very much is wrong here. And it's not matching up with what we heard last two days.

KING: That's a critical point, Laura, in the sense that in any trial today, something happens in public, everybody has a camera in their cell phone, not the case, even just 5 or 10 years ago, when phones weren't smart. But in this case, this case, just the numbing, sad, 9 minutes and 29 seconds that the jury has seen, which then the experts come in and comment.

But as Cedric just noted, you see it with your own eyes, you relive it, and we do relive it every time we see the images, whether it's the entire video, or just a piece of it. And so that's what Mr. Nelson is trying to overcome. And if - I want you to listen a little bit of Dr. Fowler, who to Cedric's point he just made.

Dr. Fowler is essentially saying, you know, no, this would have happened anyway, listen to him here describe what he believes is George Floyd's heart condition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOWLER: The size of the heart would be extremely good evidence that he had hypertension. In this particular case, methamphetamine, which was present in Mr. Floyd, has been associated with earlier onset of narrowing of the coronary arteries by atherosclerosis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Again, when you take that in the context of all the other evidence, it's a hard fit. When you take it in the defense trying to raise some kind of doubt or some alternative set of facts what did you think of the witness?

COATES: Well, first of all, the question has never been whether George Floyd would die someday? This is not a trial to figure out whether he is immortal? He was going to die, someday. You will die. I will die. We will all die as human beings someday.

The question is why he died that day? And the witness actually testified like Cedric saying even with the narrowing of the arteries that people go on to continue to live, they're often not symptomatic in any way, and may often not even be aware of what is happening. And so the idea here that you're going to suggest that the reason he died coincidentally, with this amount of force with the pulmonologist said, 91 pounds of weight on his neck, and you hear about the contortion the almost equivalent of removing the left lung from his body.

These images are seared in the brains of the jurors here. And so the star witness you're absolutely right remains the video and the video, even when it's not being shown John, subconsciously with every single witness had testified, we are remembering and comparing what they've said, not just against a prior witness.

We're comparing it to what our eyes saw. What our ears heard, our own observations through the video. And so this star witness is in the room every single time. And it's being compared and contrasted to try to assess the credibility of these witnesses.

And until they address the obvious concessions until they address what we know common scenically has happened, they can introduce unicorns appearing out of the sky, or potential allergens that may have come into context here.

Unless they address the pressure, the sustained use of force on George Floyd's neck and body despite him being unconscious, they will not move the needle.

KING: And that's it. It's a fascinating point you make. And Cedric is as they try - as Mr. Nelson tries to move the needle to use Laura's term there. One of the things we have seen and one of the fascinations of any trial is the point counter point and the response right?

The defense is watching the prosecution. He tries to be nimble. Now the prosecution is watching the defense. And we talked - we've talked about this in prior days where Mr. Nelson keeps saying reasonable officer. What would a reasonable officer do?

Trying to just plant that in the jury's mind that Derek Chauvin, you might not agree with the call he made at the end, but it was the call any reasonable officer might make under those circumstances? Part of that response for the prosecution we heard yesterday when they started adopting the same term, as they made their case, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: We're not doing anything and they're not saying anything. So what a reasonable police officer in the defendants position had been distracted by their non action.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If a person is saying he can't breathe, and continues to actively resist, I'll be at a lower level would an officer - reasonable officer take that into consideration?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're going through we're in the 40s now in terms of the number of witnesses. So part of it is the witness testimony. Part of it also is how the attorneys trying to shape the key audience the jury.

ALEXANDER: Yes. So let's talk about reasonable just for a second, John. What's reasonable if we're sitting in a restaurant and someone at the table next to us appears to be so suffering a heart attack we can reasonably assume that may be the case and we render support in aid?

[12:10:00]

If you're a police officer out on the street, and you're managing the physical, you're trying to manage a physical altercation. And be mindful of this, you have two other partners, three other partners with you, you're not by yourself.

And a person tells you once they're subdued that they're trying to breath, but you offer no medical help, it becomes reasonable that you do. Nothing was reasonable in that case on May 25th, from what we saw, and from what we witness, so that it here again.

I keep coming back to that point, because at the end of all of this, that is what's going to really matter. What touch people? What people have witnessed and seen over and over again, and has it been explained to them?

Here again, down to the millisecond. That's what you call reasonable expectation of a sworn police officer to provide reasonable aid, which they fail to do.

KING: All right. Common compassion and you can see it - here - every time we see it. It stuns us Cedric Alexander and Laura Coates grateful for your insights. They're going to stay with us. We're waiting for the trial to resume any minute but there's also another big story developing nearby in Minnesota.

The Former Minnesota Police Officer Kim Potter could be charged as early as today. Potter shot and killed Daunte Wright during a traffic stop on Sunday. Both Potter and the Department's Police Chief resigned yesterday. Tensions remain high in Brooklyn Center, about 10 miles south of where the trial is taking place there Chauvin trial.

60 people were arrested during a third night of protests last night in that Minneapolis suburb in what police are now calling a deadly mistake. As we wait developments in that case. I'm going to take you back into the courtroom now. This is again, Dr. David Fowler, a defense witness in the trial of Derek Chauvin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: All right, Dr. Fowler. Right before the break, we were discussing Mr. Floyd's heart and the contributions to Mr. Floyd's heart to his death. Did you form in your opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty? What you thought was the principal cause of Mr. Floyd's death?

FOWLER: Yes.

NELSON: And what is that.

FOWLER: Cardiac arrhythmia due to hypotensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease during restraint.

NELSON: Now, in terms of the other contributing factors to Mr. Floyd's death, did you - as a part of your review, make other considerations to things that may have contributed?

FOWLER: Yes, I did.

NELSON: I'd like to discuss with you carbon - carbon monoxide or CO. You've reviewed all of the videos in the case, correct?

FOWLER: I did.

NELSON: Did you pay attention to where Mr. Floyd's head was positioned relevant to the squad car?

FOWLER: Yes, I did.

NELSON: Which way was his face, nose mouth facing?

FOWLER: His face was facing towards the vehicle towards the rear of the vehicle and directly towards the area where you would expect the tailpipe or tailpipes of the vehicle to be.

NELSON: And let me just ask you, are you suggesting that Mr. Floyd died from carbon monoxide poisoning?

FOWLER: Absolutely not. No, not a full carbon monoxide poisoning, no.

NELSON: All right. Now I'd like to if the court could publish and before the court does. The next slide has a screenshot from Officer King's body worn camera at 20:24:09. Do you see that in front of you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not at this time now.

NELSON: OK.

FOWLER: Yes.

NELSON: All right. Your honor, I have independently marked this single slide as exhibit 1058. And based upon discussions with counsel I've moved for its submission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any objection? 1058 is received.

NELSON: Permission to publish. Dr. Fowler based on your review of the videos and evidence, were you able to determine if the vehicle was running?

FOWLER: There was evidence that the vehicle was running.

NELSON: What would that evidence consist of?

FOWLER: What I observed was a collection of fluid and if this is working, like a collection of fluid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection your honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:15:00]

KING: We're watching a sidebar conversation during the testimony of the defense expert witness, Dr. David Fowler. An objection so they could discuss an issue as they watched some of the photos at the crime scene. I believe we'll see if this is going to end pretty quickly or not.

I was going to bring in Laura Coates for conversation, but I don't have to cut her off. Laura Coates, as you watch this play out, they're showing evidence from the crime scene and the defense expert witness was speaking in the prosecution objective.

COATES: Yes, we're moving into the part where you're supposed to be right now where everyone's expected the idea of what actually happened there? We've got the background. Now let's go to the facts. In this case, that's what's most important here.

All of the background information that helps to inform the jury, it essentially informs, but it means nothing in terms of being able to assess what happened here, away from the hypothetical's. Now we'll talk about what actually happened.

And here is where I'm most interested in John to see if this medical expert is going to be consistent and still offer alternate explanations for the cause of death, given what we're seeing in the footage in front of us the photographic evidence and the like.

KING: Right and Cedric Alexander, if you're still with us, as well. Again, the defense just trying to create in the mind of at least one juror, it could have been this, it could have been that. But the key part of this just as it was when Mr. Nelson cross examine the prosecution witnesses will be when he's done - what he has done with this witness, and the prosecution gets its chance.

They've been pretty effective so far, with this witness, the bar will be there very important challenge for that.

ALEXANDER: Yes look, it will be a challenge for the prosecution, but from their performance in terms of their preparation and what they've done up to this point. I'm really looking forward for this cross examination by the prosecution, because they're going to challenge some of these myths that have been placed in front of us. So I'm looking forward.

KING: We see there. Let's get back into the courtroom see how this was resolved?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: Dr. Fowler based on your general knowledge, as a forensic pathologist, your personal experiences what comes out of a car's exhaust?

FOWLER: Typically, we see the products of combustion. It's an internal combustion engine coming out the exhaust, and the major products of combustion are going to be water vapor, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and then a couple of other very small other particulate and minor gases that come out of out of the exhaust pipe.

NELSON: Is carbon monoxide toxic?

FOWLER: It is an extremely toxic gas.

NELSON: How does it act as a poison?

FOWLER: Carbon monoxide, attaches to the hemoglobin in our red blood cells. And it attaches to those red blood cells more tightly than oxygen. So it competes for the same binding position on the hemoglobin that oxygen does.

And since it is a bitter, and it binds more firmly, the oxygen can't displace it. So as the percentage of carbon monoxide bound to your hemoglobin in your bloodstream slowly goes up, you lose that portion of your oxygen carrying capacity.

So if you have a 10 percent, carbon monoxide saturation in your bloodstream, you've lost 10 percent of your oxygen carrying capacity.

NELSON: OK, can that cause ultimately death?

FOWLER: When you get to levels, weigh in excess of 50, 60 percent people, typically, even young, healthy individuals will start to die. The issue is that people with significant heart disease and reduced capacity in their heart are going to be adversely affected earlier.

And so there are certainly many examples in the literature of people dying. In an environment where multiple people are exposed, but one person dies, and that seems less than 20 percent and the others die at varying levels above that. So it's not universal that everybody will require getting to 60, 70, and 80 percent.

That's a young healthy individual, but people with predisposing conditions who are vulnerable will die at much lower levels.

NELSON: So in terms of the literature, are you familiar generally with the literature on carbon monoxide poisoning?

FOWLER: Yes.

NELSON: Specifically are you familiar with the paper by - and Dana on carbon monoxide poisoning in open spaces?

[12:20:00]

FOWLER: You said it's a paper that came out in the late 80s I believe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KING: We'll take a break from the trial of Officer Derek Chauvin to bring you other important breaking news from a nearby suburb. CNN has now learnt, the Former Brooklyn Center Minnesota Police Officer Kim Potter is being charged in the killing of Daunte Wright. Our CNN Correspondent Adrienne Broadus is live from Brooklyn Center. Adrienne, walk us through what we know.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well John, we know the Washington County prosecutor has told CNN he will charge that Officer Kim Potter with second degree manslaughter. Here in Minnesota under the state statute if someone is convicted of second degree manslaughter, the penalty is no more than 10 years, or a fine up to $20,000.

For those of you who may just be tuning in, Potter is the officer who was once here with the Brooklyn Center Police Department for 26 years. She fired the shot that ended the life of 20 year old Daunte Wright. The Former Police Chief here in Brooklyn Center told us she did not mean to fire that shot.

She pulled her gun out instead of her taser. On that body cam video that was released soon after the incident occurred you could hear the officer saying to Mr. Wright in the car. I'm going to tase you, I'm going to tase you, and then that was followed by taser, taser, taser, and yelling taser, taser, and taser, is what officers are supposed to do before they deploy their taser, but that did not happen.

The family of Daunte Wright has said they have a hard time accepting what happened to their son on Sunday been an accident? So again, breaking news at this hour the Washington County Attorney tells CNN he has filed second degree manslaughter charges against Potter.

Now you may remember Officer Mohamed Noor was also charged with second degree manslaughter. He was convicted in the case of Justine Damon, and right now just 10 miles away from where I am Officer Derek Chauvin is on trial for the death of George Floyd. Chauvin was charged with second degree manslaughter, as well as second and third degree murder, John.

KING: Adrienne Broaddus for us live on the scene. We'll continue to get reaction as this plays out today. And let's get some important insights now from Laura Coates, the Former Federal Prosecutor and our CNN Legal Analyst and Cedric Alexander; he was the Former President of the Black Law Enforcement Officers Association.

Laura, let's start with you. It's very quick movement by the prosecutor. What do you make of this charge second degree manslaughter?

COATES: Well, based on what we learned from the now attempted to be resigned Chief, this idea of accidental this notion here is saying that culpable negligence is going to be the standard here. Now what does that mean culpable negligence?

It means that you were grossly negligent and reckless in your behavior, you created an unreasonable, unreasonable risk that would lead to death or bodily harm. And so you've got this 10 year penalty as a feeling of it.

But on that notion, this is very early on in the prosecution's case, now it could be graduated to a higher charge, there is always a chance it could be reduced. I don't see how it would be reduced, but it always could go up. Remember, Adrienne just spoke about one of the officers in the past Mohamed Noor charged with one crime and added on with the third degree.

Same thing with Derek Chauvin, but it's all about whether or not this prosecutor is going to be able to prove that this officer created an unreasonable risk that you reached for believing it was a taser and accidentally purportedly got your gun.

Was that reasonable for you to make that mistake? Was it reasonable for the period of time that you held the service weapon in your arm? Not to know that it was actually a taser? Was it reasonable as well to even fire and deploy the taser believing of course was the taser and ultimately being the gun?

All of this goes under that same umbrella. And interestingly enough, it tracks what's happening with Derek Chauvin right now, because it's one of the charges he's now facing. But again, culpable negligence, John is gross negligence with recklessness, and that is going to be the key to solving this particular indictment and having a conviction.

KING: And Cedric we've talked about the issue of police training, especially for veteran officers throughout the Chauvin trial. And now in this case, Former Officer Potter she resigned yesterday, a 26 year veteran of the force. These are dicey situations but if the argument put forward by the now resigned Police Chief was this was an accident.

Walk us through how an officer has a handgun and a taser and how they're supposed to understand and how they're trained to have that key distinction?

ALEXANDER: Well, certainly she's been around long enough and been there since the inception of tasers when they were introduced a number of years ago.

[12:25:00]

Assumingly they're at their department as well. So there's a rigor of training that you go through, from weak side to strong side where your service weapon is always on your strong side.

What occurred here in this case is very difficult and hard to understand for the common lay person, and certainly for many police officers is hard to understand. Can it happen? Can it be an accident? Maybe it can under certain stressful situations?

But the question becomes, is that why was a service revolver, a service weapon pool? And in addition to that, why would it even been necessary to even to deploy a taser as well? So those are going to become the questions. I'm certainly going to be interested in what's going to how this case is going to evolve?

In listening to, at some point, the argument on the part of that officer and what was going through her mind? What was she experiencing, but for someone that's a 26 year veteran, and for this to occur, and however it occurred, you had someone to lose their life unnecessarily and that becomes a real issue, because there's a real gross negligence here.

That has taken place. So had a half his day in court, but again, she'll have heard it but that person who lost their life.

KING: Right. 20 year old Daunte Wright apparent - 20 year old Daunte Wright is the person lost his life in this episode. Laura, walk through a little bit more what you just discussed, because I think it's important, how cases can evolve obviously, because of the unrest in the community, because of the history in the community, and perhaps even because of the proximity to Minneapolis?

And we know the Chauvin trial is underway just 10 miles away, the prosecutors clearly made a decision here to act quickly, to make clear that they were going to bring charges. But as you know, the investigation will continue and that can evolve, walk through how that process works?

COATES: Well, you know, when you first get become aware of an actual charge or an arrest, if somebody prosecutors routinely will make a decision about the nature of the arrest, and whether it fits with a particular crime, where they can satisfy those elements, but it is not exhaustive.

We're only - we're only two days after, unfortunately, the killing of young Daunte Wright. And so this might be the floor for the charges against this particular officer and not the ceiling. And oftentimes, as you develop the case, as you learn more information, you might increase those particular charges.

One way of doing so is if you learn additional information about the statements of the officer about the state of mind whether this was actually an accident? All we have to go by right now is that Police Chief who made the comment that he believed it was accidental. And we have the video where the officer says, oh, expletive, I shot him.

Well, that statement perhaps could be interpreted as her believing that she made a mistake. Or it could be the realization that it actually happened, or the statement of taser, taser and taser could undercut any statement, but it's intentional and so all of this is going to be weighed right now.

But remember, this is also an opportunity for officers and the defense counsel for any defendant potentially, to talk about police, because the longer and further into an investigation you get, the less likely you are to get a favorable plea offer.

You want to get it close in time. Now I'm not advocating for her to be able to plead out. But this is a reality in all cases that prosecutors bring. But remember one thing interesting in Minnesota, John that needs to be talked about in terms of police accountability is what the consequences are?

You have a 10 year penalty of maximum sentence and or a fine; it might not even get that if she's convicted of that particular crime. It might be a lesser prison sentence, if at all. But then what about things like a pension?

Most officers in different jurisdictions make may contemplate whether to resign or be fired and think about the consequences of say a conviction? Well, Minnesota is unique in many ways. And one of the ways they have been unique is that they do not have a garnishment or a forfeiture of pensions for police officers, even in the event of a conviction.

And so that might factor into why you choose to resign otherwise and this might be a thing that will come up later on. It might be one of the reasons why the mayor is reluctant to accept the resignation of the officer.

But again, this is tracking in a very eerie way. The Derek Chauvin trial because jurors right now in that same County are trying to grapple with a charge of second degree manslaughter, whether Derek Chauvin created an unreasonable risk that caused the death of George Floyd?

Same question now being asked of now resigned Kim Potter against what happened to Daunte Wright.

KING: Laura Coates and Cedric Alexander I appreciate the hustle on this breaking news story. We're going taken out right back into that trial again. This is Dr. David Fowler. He is a defense witness being - he is under direct examination right now by Eric Nelson, the lead defense attorney.

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