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GOP Ousts Cheney From Leadership in Fight Over the Truth And Trump; Former Trump Admin Officials Testify About Response to Capitol Insurrection; Former Acting DOJ Chief: No Evidence to Overturn the Election; Cheney Booed For Trump Comments After Removal From Leadership; McCarthy Condemned Trump For Jan 6th, Then Changed His Story. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 12, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: John King very importantly picks up our coverage right now at Inside Politics.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Hello, everybody and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing with us an action packed news day with us and important first for President Biden today.

The White House meeting with the big four of congressional leadership that sits down coming amid some big debates on the president's infrastructure and education plans.

Congresswoman Liz Cheney gone today from the House Republican leadership, a casualty of Former President Trump's war on anyone who contests his election lies. On her way out Cheney issued a warning and a promise, the warning that Donald Trump is dragging Republicans toward destruction, the promise, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I will do everything I can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the oval office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: More on those big political stories ahead. But we begin the hour on Capitol Hill and the ongoing CSI; you might call it into the Capitol insurrection, two key Trump administration officials going under oath today about those riots for the first time.

The Former Acting Head of the Pentagon, Christopher Miller and the Former Acting Head of the Justice Department, Jeffrey Rosen both officials this is important say they did not speak to then President Trump that they did not speak to the President of the United States on a day the country was under attack.

Multiple GOP officials also offered baseless and false alternative narratives about what happened back on January 23 - on January 6, excuse me and they downplay Former President Trump's role in sparking the insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL GOSAR (R-AZ): The FBI is fishing through homes of veterans and citizens with no criminal records and restricting the liberties of individuals that have never been accused of a crime. Zero firearms from suspects charged with breaching the Capitol.

REP. JODY HICE (R-GA): It was Trump supporters who lost their lives that day, not Trump supporters who were taking the lives of others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: With me to share their insights on this very important day the former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, our CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins and CNN Congressional Correspondent, Lauren Fox.

Lauren, I want to start with you. You were at the Capitol that day. You - your life was at risk during that day. As you hear Congressman Gosar, Congressman Hice and other Republicans describe their - what I'm going to call parallel version parallel universe version of events, simply just not what happened.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, we hear what Representative Gosar has to say about the events of January 6 often on Capitol Hill, right.

But to say these words in a hearing when you're really trying to get answers or at least lawmakers should be trying to get answers about what occurred that day, what communication happened between the president or the vice president and top officials that day, I thought it was shocking.

What he described, basically, assuming that the people who the Department of Justice are looking into people who were at the Capitol who illegally entered the Capitol were just normal Americans who were out for a walk I thought was pretty striking and pretty horrifying.

KING: Andy McCabe, someone has been in a leadership position in law enforcement on tough days for the country. I just want to ask the simple question. There are a lot of details to go through this a lot of politics and hurling back and forth. We have a few minutes here, and we'll talk about all of that.

But the fact that you have the Defense Secretary and the Attorney General, both acting on that day. But the man in charge of the pentagon, the man in charge of the justice department, on a day, the United States Capitol and through that the United States government was under attack, the President of the United States does not speak to either one of them. What management school teaches you that?

ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: Not, not anyone I've ever heard of, John. It's remarkable that in the midst of an attack on our violent attack on our Capitol by whatever group put all the affiliations aside the middle of an attack on the Capitol. And no one, the head of the justice department, the head of the defense department, no one is speaking to the President of the United States, the Commander-in-Chief whose job it is to protect and defend this nation. It's just absolutely inexplicable.

They - they're either, that's either accurate, no one spoke to him, which raises the question of why wouldn't you? Or there's - there are clearly more facts that we have yet to uncover here. So it's just an absolute head scratcher.

KING: I think the wide part is critical. And I think you hear all the calls for the independent commission, because we'll get more into a lot of politics at this hearing. Why, why did the President of the United States simply not care? Was he happy? Why didn't he reach out and talk to people?

Kaitlan Collins, you covered the White House force in those days. I want to come back to that point. I want to listen more to Christopher Miller, the acting Defense Secretary. In other interviews, media interviews, he has said there would not have been a march on the Capitol, if not for the president speech at the rally beforehand.

He tried to pull that back today under oath before congress on camera. Democrats were indignant that, but I also want you to listen here. He says one of the big questions that we hope is actually answered here. We hope again, there's a lot of politics.

We hope in the later questioning, why was there a delay? The National Guard needed reinforcement, the Capitol was under siege. Why did it take roughly 90 minutes to get the sign off? The Secretary Miller says I did absolutely nothing wrong.

[12:05:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER MILLER, FORMER ACTING DEFENSE SECRETARY: Those of you with military experience or who understand the nature of military deployments will recognize how rapid our response was. Criticism of the military response is unfounded and reflects inexperience with or a lack of understanding of the nature of military operations or worse is simply the result of politics.

This isn't a video game where you can move forces with the flick of a thumb or a movie that glosses over the logistical challenges and the time required to coordinate and synchronize with the multitude of other entities involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That was a very, I'm going to call it Trumpy pushback saying how dare you ask me this question. But not just politicians, you have had members of the National Guard members of the police forces necessary say, you know what, back in June, well, we needed help from the pentagon during the Black Lives Matter protesters, we got it like that in a matter of minutes. There is a difference that needs to be explored.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right and the way he's kind of trying to explain it is you just don't understand how this works. Maybe if some of you familiar with the military, you know, but others don't. And I just - I don't think that's really an excuse that works.

Because this is coming from Republicans and Democrats who said the response that day was too slow. He said that he had known for about an hour. I think that those protesters that actually and the writers that actually got into the building before they actually had a meeting about what transpired.

And I think it raises questions about the decisions that he made that day, because he does testify. What we already knew is that he did not speak to President Trump that day. But he is saying that he did speak to Vice President Pence, who he clarified and made sure to say he's not in the chain of command.

Why would you speak to the person who is not the chain of command compared to the person who is in the chain of command? And that's something he didn't really explain. And I think we should note that often before someone testifies like this, we get their written testimony the night before, because they submitted, he submitted his written testimony.

And when you listen to what he said today and you looked at what he had written, he left out that line that said he believed Trump's words encouraged these people to go to the Capitol. For some reason, he did not say that while he was testifying today.

KING: We get for some reason. So you leave it out into the ether. Look, the stated purpose of the hearing was to try to fill in some of the gaps. There are a lot of gaps about exactly what happened the chain of command, why wasn't the president more involved?

Who signed off on what why were there delays? And some of them might be explainable, some of them there might be good answers, not the results are not good. But there might be legitimate answers for why certain things happen.

Some of this is also the politics. The Chairwoman of the committee is Carolyn Maloney, Democrats, no Republicans - are still many of them still supporting Trump's big lie. She wanted to bring that up.

The Democrats believe, to the point that where the president was that he was not doing his job. He was watching the rally and he was happy. That's what the Democrats think. So Carolyn Maloney put these questions to the two Trump officials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D-NY): Do you believe the 2020 presidential election was stolen from President Trump?

JEFFREY ROSEN, FORMER ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: There was no evidence presented of widespread fraud of the sufficient scale to overturn the election.

MALONEY: Do you believe President Trump fulfilled his oath to faithfully execute his duties as president and to preserve, protect and defend the constitution?

ROSEN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Andy McCabe, I want to come back to this from the perspective of an investigator. Are they asking the questions that you would be asking if you're trying you have a crime? Yes, some people have been charged and are awaiting trial.

But there are still some questions to be answered. Are they being asked properly on Capitol Hill today?

MCCABE: No, I don't think so, John and I'm you know, I'm not really surprised. I think it's - I think they're interesting questions. I think holding each of these officials kind of feet to the fire on the issue of whether or not they believe the --this lie that the election was stolen is an interesting question.

You can hear the discomfort and Jeff Rosen's voice as he very carefully tries to navigate around it without saying no. But really the questions that we need to know the answers to are very factual and very detailed.

We need to go over the timeline, both the one that the defense department has put out publicly and apparently this the more robust timeline that they have internally, to understand with perfect clarity who called who and ask for support at what time how decisions were made, why decisions were made, on what basis did people like the former secretary, acting Secretary Defense, Miller?

Why were there delays built into that process? Like you said, there might be good answers to these questions. But we're not getting any of those answers today. And we likely will not get them until we have a legitimate, focused independent committee go in and do that work for us.

KING: And one of the questions and this connects to what was the president doing and when was he doing it? Or was he doing anything at all? As we know the vice president, you are at the Capitol that day so as the vice president.

His life was at risk or at least the six secret services believed it to be so for a matter of several minutes as the Capitol was breached and they hustled Mike Pence in. We know that when Mike Pence was in a holding room, he call the acting secretary of defense. And that came up in the hearing today and this was the answer.

[12:10:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MALONEY: According to a defense department timeline, it was Vice President Pence and not President Trump, who called during the siege to say the Capitol was not secure and to give you the direction to "Clear the Capitol". What specifically did Vice President Pence say to you that day?

MILLER: Vice President is not in the chain of command, he did not direct me to clear the Capitol. I discussed very briefly with him the situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Again Kaitlan, that gets to Andy McCabe's point about we need everybody to put this on the record. We need to match up all the timelines and again, there'll be discrepancies always happen on a big day like that to match them up.

But from the Democrats perspective, Pence was calling the Capitol because the President of the United States was AWOL - defense department, excuse me.

COLLINS: Right and not only was the President AWOL, we were told by sources that we reported at the time in "The New York Times" and other outlets also reported. The president was sitting back and watching this and was enthusiastic about what was happening.

He was not watching it in horror like a lot of us were that day. And so I think that's important to note as well when it comes to the questions about this.

But this reminds me of when we were covering the impeachment trial; I had so many sources say they were concerned that Democrats were going to try to go after the communications of the people who had spoken with President Trump that day to get a real clear picture of what was in his mindset and what was happening.

And they were surprised that didn't happen. The Mark Meadows is the Jim Jordans the lawmakers who were on the phone with President Trump at the time. I think that is something that would also glean you knows we pretend like we don't know what Trump's mindset is.

It's very obvious often what his mindset is on something and it was that day based on the people who were speaking with him. And so they were surprised they've never even gotten asked, what was the president telling you when you were calling him from in the middle of the siege and he's sitting at the White House.

KING: One of the most important documents in the United States government libraries now for the last 25 years is the 911 commission. And there's a push on to have an independent commission of some sort, whether it's members of congress, or all outside people into this insurrection.

And that's been a huge source of fighting between the Speaker and the Republican Leader, Kevin McCarthy, who would be a witness one of the people who spoke to Former President Trump, and then President Trump on that day, any progress is that going to go anywhere?

FOX: We just haven't seen any progress really from lawmakers. You know, the House Speaker was trying to push Republican leadership to come to some kind of consensus with horror that was not working very well.

So essentially, what she did was turn to the homeland committee, the homeland chairman to try to see if he could get some kind of agreement with Republicans. So far, it hasn't yielded any kind of deal.

And I think this hearing is more evidence for why a commission is so unlikely because you see, the Republicans and Democrats see the events of that day so differently and the revisionist history that you're starting to see form. It's just it makes it impossible to come to some kind of consensus on a commission.

KING: What a damning but true statement about Washington today. The hearing is proving how necessary it is and yet because of the divided polarized politics how unlikely they will reach an agreement on it. Welcome to todays --.

Andrew McCabe grateful for your insights, Lauren and Kaitlan are going to stay with us as we move on. Up next Liz Cheney is removed from the House Republican leadership but promises she will not be silenced.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KING: Wyoming's Liz Cheney was dumped this morning from the House Republican leadership team and within minutes, she made clear her new mission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: I will do everything I can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the Oval Office. We have seen the danger that he continues to provoke with his language. We have seen his lack of commitment and dedication to the constitution.

And I think it's very important that we make sure whomever we elect is somebody who will be faithful to the constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We will never know the numbers never know the breakdown of how many Republicans would have voted to remove Cheney from the number three leadership posts. And how many would have stuck with her we will never know because the House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy decided a voice vote would suffice, back with me CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Lauren Fox.

Democracies are stronger when we take votes on tough issues even when they're close. This would have been a private secret vote we would have not known who voted. But why does Kevin McCarthy think it is OK? When everyone is watching the direction of the Republican Party when

you're kicking someone out of your leadership who you stood by just a couple of months ago - let's just do this on a voice vote and run out of the room.

FOX: This took all of about 16 minutes from the beginning to the end. That's the flip prayer, the pledge, the vote because it was a voice vote.

You know, Adam Kinzinger who is a close ally of Cheney someone else who is not afraid to speak out against Trump said this was about "fake unity", essentially that the leadership team didn't want any kind of breakdown of a vote coming forward, any kind of public releasing of that information, because they are trying to sweep this under the rug and move on for unity of the Republican Party as quickly as they can.

Whether or not they're going to be able to do that and move forward with a new leader, I think we're going to have to see over the next couple of days.

KING: And as someone who covered the former president for quite some time you understand how he relishes battles like this. He has issued a statement at least one a day for the last several days about Liz Cheney, calling her names I'm not going to say on television, really showing respect to his high office he once held the language he speaks. But her--

COLLINS: --he was in office.

KING: Right, well, he didn't do it in office either. Oh, help for growth. I will do everything I can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the Oval Office. So she's laying down the gauntlet as well.

COLLINS: She is, and she's unremorseful. I think that was the most striking thing about her speech last night that they announced just a few moments before those remarks today after she was pushed out by our own party for this.

But I think what's so fascinating is that the way you're hearing from Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell and Republican Leaders are basically saying let's get this over with so we can move on and move forward and talk about recapturing the house in 2022.

But what is happening with Liz Cheney here and with Former President Trump's statement is essentially just bringing it to the forefront making it even more prominent and revealing his grip on the party his power over some of these members.

[12:20:00]

COLLINS: And so they're trying to say they're going to move on. But all this is doing is putting it at the top of the news cycle and making everyone focuses. And with her saying her mission is to make sure Donald Trump doesn't get close to ever being elected president, again, is saying, I'm not going away. And I'm going to continue to say what I've been saying every day. And

there was a politico quote the other day and playbook where a Republican Congressman said, you don't have to echo Trump's election lies, but you can't stand up every day and give him the bird basically saying that's what Liz Cheney has been doing. It sounds like she's going to keep doing that though.

KING: Right. And again, Republicans are trying to make this about Liz Cheney; I would say it is in part about Liz Cheney, because she has she welcomes this fight. But if Trump would stop repeating the lie, she wouldn't have to challenge him.

And he keeps repeating the light every day. Now almost every day this week, we've had a statement the other day, it was about Michigan, a day before that was about somewhere else. It's just a lie.

And so if he would be quiet about it, I'm using polite language, maybe she would as well. But to your point about where we're going, she's on the ballot in 2022. If President Trump, Former President Trump tries to come back, that would be in 2024. She gave an interview Congresswoman Cheney did with NBC just after the vote. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: A lot of people frame this as a battle for the soul of the republican party. This is the - I think opening salvo in that battle. And it's a battle we have to win. Because it's not just about the Republican Party, it's about the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Trump political team is actively looking to coalesce around a primary challenger to you, what is your message to them?

CHENEY: You know, bring it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So there you go. So this, the Republicans say we needed to do this, even the people who voted with Liz Cheney on impeachment, even people who believe her and support her views on the big lie, we have to move on, we can't keep talking about this.

There's no way there's no way to escape it because Trump will try to primary her she will if he runs, whether she runs in 2024 or whether she's just active against him in 2024. This is with us.

FOX: Well, that's exactly right. And I think that, you know when we look at 2024 and whether or not Trump is going to get in that race, whether or not he would have the support of Republican leaders in that race, just look over at the U.S. Senate.

Yes, a lot of House Republicans are with Donald Trump, a lot of Senate Republicans are too I don't want to overstate that. But the reality is Mitch McConnell does not talk about Donald Trump being the leader of their party anymore. We have not heard him under that kind of thing in weeks, months. And I

think that that is really a critical point to look moving forward. Is someone like Tom Cotton, the future is someone else, the future Josh Hawley, perhaps.

But I think, you know, if the president or former president thinks that he is a shoo in for 2024, it's got another thing coming because a lot of Republican Senators are not necessarily going to just get in line behind him, just like what you've seen in the House of Representatives.

COLLINS: But I think what's so interesting about that, if that is the dynamic and of course, we're speaking hypothetically is that was kind of how it was when he ran the first time, he did not have the support of a lot of these people.

So we talked so much about how extraordinary the turn on Jeff Sessions was, because he was the first Republican Senator to come out and actually have Trump's back a lot of those Republican leaders at the time were distancing themselves ready for a Hillary Clinton beat down and it didn't happen.

So it only emboldened him at times. But it is fascinating to watch these Republicans stick their neck out for a president who was a one term president, which is something that is so rare these days.

KING: Once term president but they look at their own polling and seven and 10 Republican voters believe the big lie because they've been told it so often. They believe it, which are a shame and a scourge on the country right now.

The challenge is you heard Liz Cheney saying the gauntlet laying down the gauntlet against Former President Trump. I'm interested to watch how she and those who are like minded are against - about the current leader Kevin McCarthy because here's a little example of Kevin McCarthy right after the insurrection and then after his visit to Trump in Mar-a-Lago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters, he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.

I was the first person to contact him when the riots were going on. He didn't see it. What he ended the call was saying telling me he'll put something out to make sure to stop this. And that's what he did. He put a video out later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Whatever your views whether you're supported Cheney didn't support Cheney is just a fact. Kevin McCarthy trying to rewrite history there after the fact because he believes his path to the speakership is staying on Trump's good side. FOX: I mean, that's exactly right, John. I mean, Republicans support

Donald Trump Republican voters in conservative district support Donald Trump. And Kevin McCarthy knows there is no way no path to win back the house in 2022 and become the speaker without Trump.

That calculation no matter what happened on January 6, no matter the fact that he was there that day, he was afraid that day like many of us were, there is no way to move forward without Donald Trump for Kevin McCarthy. And I think that's, that's the bottom line here. That's the story. This isn't about moving on. This is about embracing Trump and sticking with him.

[12:25:00]

KING: Mike Kevin, as the former president says of Kevin McCarthy on that he's correct. Up next for us the president meets with congress's top party leaders but don't expect Kumbaya bipartisanship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Right now President Biden, Vice President Harris are meeting for the first time since taking office with the Capitol Hill's big four, that's the top two Democrats and the top two Republicans in Congress.

[12:30:00]