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Inside Politics

CDC Director Cites New Studies Confirming Vaccines Largely Protect From Variants And Greatly Reduce Risk Of Spreading Virus; Americans React With Relief, Confusion Over New Mask Guidelines; Cheney Promises To Help Lead Anti-Trump Faction Of Her Party; Biden Dealing With Multiple Crises At Home And Abroad; GOP Congressmen Downplay January 6 Insurrection; Ex-Gaetz Associate To Plead Guilty. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired May 16, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[08:00:23]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice-over): President Biden marks a big milestone in the fight against the pandemic.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. You could shake hands. You could even give each other a hug.

PHILLIP: Plus --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need some gas. This is terrible.

PHILLIP: Gas lines and inflation threaten to knock the White House off its economic message.

Liz Cheney's end game, how she plans to take on Trumpism.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I will do everything I can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the Oval Office.

PHILLIP: And the GOP lawmakers who say January 6th didn't really happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The House floor was never breached and it was not an insurrection.

PHILLIP: INSIDE POLITICS, the biggest stories sourced by the best reporters now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP (on camera): Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Abby Phillip.

And we start today with the big news from the CDC. If you've been vaccinated, it's safe to take off your mask, whether you're inside or out.

There are some exceptions like if you're on an airline or part of a big indoor crowd but it means a return to almost normal for millions of Americans.

President Joe Biden chose the Rose Garden to deliver the good news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: When your country asks you to get vaccinated, you did. The American people stepped up. You did what I consider to be your patriotic duty. The American people have never ever, ever, ever let their country down. Never.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So why now? The CDC director cites new studies that confirm that the vaccines largely protect you from the variants and greatly reduce the risk of spreading the virus.

Americans though offered a range of reactions to the news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It feels great. I love it. I feel like I could visit my family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is a step in the right direction. I think a lot of people are kind of over the masks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel better wearing a mask inside still, just because, you know, not everyone is vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And joining me now with their reporting and insights, Michael Shear of the "New York Times," "The Daily Beast's" Jackie Kucinich, CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen, and CNN's Manu Raju.

So, Jackie, this is a really big deal, really controversial in a lot of corners but a big milestone for the country and for the Biden administration, they celebrated -- I think we can say celebrated -- with a Rose Garden announcement.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, an unmasked Joe Biden coming out of the White House. I mean, this is a big promise of the incoming Biden administration, was a return back to normalcy. And they were going to celebrate it on Friday.

And I think it took a lot of us by surprise. Both reporters and medical professionals but you speak to that. But just speaking politically, it is great news for Joe Biden. This is great news for this administration. Assuming everything continues to progress as it has.

PHILLIP: And we will get to the science of this in just one second. But, Michael, the White House, they say they weren't given a heads up about this. The reporting out of "The Washington Post" this weekend that details the inside deliberations both at the CDC and at the White House indicate that White House officials were told the night before the president wasn't told until the day of.

But why the decision within the White House to move so quickly to embrace this decision? It seems like there are some risks here, especially with some Republicans saying you have a lot of other bad news happening in terms of headlines, you're taking advantage of this CDC announcement make too soon.

MICHAEL SHEAR, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think maybe too soon. And also it felt a lot like the Biden White House was overcorrecting or really trying to correct for the Trump era interference in sort of the allegations and truth of the Trump administration interfering with the CDC for much of the past year and the Biden administration was really trying to take a hands off approach.

The problem with that I think is that it wasn't managed. I mean, the announcement felt like a kind of thunder bolt from the scientists without any sort of policy considerations. What do businesses do? How do people with children, Manu has kids. You all have little kids -- what do they do if they can't mask?

How do you deal with the issue of people that may not be telling the truth about the fact that they are vaccinated and walking around without masks on? And all of those are really political questions more than they are -- or management questions, at least more than they are science questions.

[08:05:06]

And it doesn't look like they sort of grappled with that because they were so interested in making sure they kept hands off.

PHILLIP: And, Dr. Wen, you know, "The Washington Post" is reporting in the same story that within the CDC, there was pretty strong agreement among the scientists that the science was there, a lot it had to do with the effectiveness against the variants and some recent studies. So, tell us a little bit about what the science is behind the mask part of this, but then also to Michael's point, there are some questions.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: That's right. So the science itself is very strong. That fully vaccinated people are very well- protected themselves. So they're very well-protected from getting ill, from getting severely ill and also from spreading the illness, which I think is also what the CDC was initially waiting on.

They didn't know if you are asymptomatic, could you still potentially be transmitting it to others and the chance is low which I think is all great news. The problem, though, is that is good guidance for fully vaccinated people. So if the CDC were just giving guidance to individuals, that would be fine. Except that there are broad policy implications to Michael's point about how -- what about unvaccinated people? I mean, we know vaccinated people are protected. But if you have

unvaccinated people who are now going to be exposed to others who are unvaccinated, who are taking off their masks, there's no proof of verification of vaccination, that's the big issue.

PHILLIP: Yeah, Manu, on Capitol Hill this week, one of the fascinating things about this was that the CDC Director Walensky was on the Hill defending the old CDC guidelines after she already privately made a decision to move forward with this big leap. And just listen to the skepticism from Susan Collins, a moderate, someone who is not some kind of anti-masker, anti-vaxxer type of person, as she's questioning Walensky this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLINS (R-ME): Here we have unnecessary barriers to reopening schools, exaggerating the risk of outdoor transmission and unworkable restrictions on summer camps. Why does this matter? It matters because it undermines public confidence in your recommendations, in the recommendations that do make sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So how did that land on the hill?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, look, I mean, the CDC has lost a lot of credibility, particularly among Republicans on Hill. You've heard more and more criticism.

And I think it speaks to the larger question that we're all alluding to, she made this decision but he was defending the last guidance at the hearing, why did they come out on the decision two days later when perhaps they could have rolled it out earlier if they already made the decision or, you know, suggested that this was coming? So it raised a lot of questions about how they handled it.

And look, I think this is going to become a political fight on the Hill about the wearing of masks. Nancy Pelosi has said that they're going to keep the rules on the House floor that require people to wear a mask. You get fined if you are not wearing a mask on the House floor. Republicans have pushed her to get rid of that. But she said to me, she said, well, they're not all vaccinated.

PHILLIP: Take a look at this. They are not all vaccinated, or at least they won't say. The numbers, Democrats are vaccinated. Republicans either won't say or they aren't get vaccinated particularly in the House of Representatives. So, it is a legitimate issue whether or not the mask mandate can fall in the halls of Congress.

I do want to get to one issue which is schools and children. Dr. Wen, should this accelerate a desire to get authorization for some of the vaccines for younger and younger kids. We're already down to 12, but many of you have younger kids below the age of 12.

WEN: Yeah, I have a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old. I would love to have them at some point to be vaccinated pretty soon. I think a lot of us as parents feel that way. I don't want the science to be rushed.

I definitely think that at this point, I want the science to proceed for younger age groups, it's going to be harder because we're talking about changing doses and making sure also that safety and efficacy are there.

I do think that schools can reopen and should be reopened even now at 100 percent every day, not having virtual learning any more. I think we have plenty of science to say that could happen, but I think that vaccination and especially vaccination of parents, teachers and staff and the other people around the students will help a lot there.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, such a good point about right now. I mean, there are only a couple of weeks left in the school year. But still, I mean, there is a desire for this to really move forward so that the economy could get back up and working and people could get back to their lives.

KUCINICH: But I think this is why clear messaging is so important coming out of the White House. They presented this like it was a binary choice. Either you get vaccinated or you're not vaccinated, and you need to get vaccinated. Well, there's a lot of gray there. There is a lot of gray with kids. There's a lot of gray with people who can't get vaccinated.

[08:10:01]

And because of that, and there businesses weren't let in. You mentioned this. There were a lot of stakeholders who had no idea that this was going to happen and are now scrambling as to whether people should wear masks in and out of their space and that has created some problems.

SHEAR: Well, and I can tell you, and one person who is not very happy before this is former President Trump who sees Joe Biden getting all of this credit for the reopenings that we've all wanted -- you know, we've all wanted to sort of to come eventually. He's put out all of these, you know, sort of screeds, statements -- you know, explaining about the fact that it is really him that made this all possible.

PHILLIP: Well, I mean, this is the same former President Trump who did not want to get vaccinated in public to encourage his own supporters to do that.

RAJU: Or wear a mask in public.

PHILLIP: Or wear a mask in public.

But anyway, speaking of the former president, coming up next, we have Liz Cheney vowing to take on Trump. But the question is, can she win?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:29]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): I also want to thank President Trump for his support. He is a critical part of our Republican team. I believe that voters determine the leader of the Republican Party and President Trump is the leader they look to. I support President Trump. Voters support President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That was Congresswoman Elise Stefanik right after she was elected to the Republican leadership team. It took her all of 30 seconds to thank the former president.

And the woman she replaced, Liz Cheney, said she'll help lead what is left of the anti-Trump wing of the party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): What he did to provoke at tack on January 6 and what he continues to do in terms of the kind of language that we know sparked that violence and the claims he's making to undermine our democracy have made him unfit for office. And I think it's very important for people to understand that ongoing danger of a former president attempting to undermine the system in the way he is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So, Melanie, this is a good old-fashioned media tour from Liz Cheney who is now out of leadership. But you know, what is the end goal here of this anti-Trump mission that she's on?

MELANIE ZANONA, CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: Well, she has a big mega phone now and she's planning to use it. I think this wing of the party, it is a small and vocal wing of the party, they understand that it is an uphill battle, but they don't view the battle is over, and with Liz Cheney, she's lining up media interviews.

I interviewed her on Friday. She said she's planning on getting involved in other races. Her top priority right now is making sure her own seat is safe and she very much plans on running again, does not plan on leaving the Republican Party.

And she has this huge political dynasty to back her up. Something else is interesting is she keeps sort of going after Kevin McCarthy and that is a constant pain in his side. It's like Adam Kinzinger except she has a household name.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, McCarthy may have thought he was getting rid of her by kicking her out of leadership but she is even more emboldened now, it seems, than she was before. Is that a problem for him?

MANU: Well, he's going to have to either ignore it, which he's been trying to do, or address it head on and my sense is that he's probably going to continue to try to ignore it because this is as Mel was saying, a very small faction of the House Republican Conference.

So, really, hardly anybody in the same camp that speak out vocally, really her and Adam Kinzinger and most of the other eight are quiet when you grab them in the halls and try to talk to them about Donald Trump. They want nothing to do with it.

Congressman Peter Meijer, for example, he was one of the 10 who voted to impeach. I tried to ask him four different times about all of the things that happened with Liz Cheney over the past week. He refused to talk about any of it.

So there is just -- she'll have her name, her platform, she'll make her case. But McCarthy hopes to relegate it to --

(CROSSTALK)

SHEAR: Here is my question for the congressional reporters. My colleague Carl Hulse wrote a piece about the last time somebody was ousted like this which was John Boehner who I think it was '98 that he was ousted from leadership and of course he hung around for 10, 15 years and then became speaker again, right?

So does she have that -- if she could hold on to her seat? Does that --

PHILLIP: And is that what she believes, obviously, that there will be an opportunity for the Republican Party to turn around, but is that just wishful thinking?

KUCINICH: Well, she seems to be playing a long game, right? Because short-term she could have run for Senate. There are all sorts of things Liz Cheney could have done and she chose to stay in the House. So it seems like this is where she wants to be if she could hold on to that seat, and that -- Boehner is actually where my head went when all of this --

RAJU: Yeah, I don't see -- because there's no path for her to advancing in the Senate. Yeah, she's kept open the option of running for president but could she win in a base that is just dominated by the former president, win a primary. It's hard to see that. Who knows? But it's so hard to see that.

PHILLIP: This is exactly the point. I mean, this is not just Liz Cheney in a vacuum. This is also about Trump. I mean, listen -- just listen to Kevin McCarthy, the return of dear leader even with President Trump no longer in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), MINORITY LEADER: He was with it and he was engaging and he was giving me numbers and he was talking. But at no time having known Joe Biden for quite sometime, does he have the energy of Donald Trump.

We both know it. Donald Trump didn't need to sleep five hours a night and he would be engaged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

[08:20:00]

PHILLIP: OK. So, first of all, Last time I checked, not being able to sleep was not a sign of someone's --

MANU: Not healthy --

PHILLIP: Or whatever it is. It is hero worship.

But on top of that, Michael, this is a former president who actively accelerating, this is Liz Cheney's point, accelerating the big lie and attacking Mike Pence even this weekend. This is a person with unanimous support with Republican leadership in the House right now.

SHEAR: Yeah, he has, he has -- to Manu's point -- nearly unanimous support in the House. And I think, you know, for those of us who thought that once the former president had left office, that there might be a kind of reassertion of the old establishment part of the Republican Party that was sort of -- that had predated Trump. I think that was just, you know, it didn't turn out to be the case.

You look at the dynasty, Bush, Cheney, Romney, McCain, all of the sort of old guard of the Republican Party that used to be are being attacked consistently by Trump and those attacks are being embraced by the vast majority of the party.

KUCINICH: But McCarthy has one job and that is to become the speaker of the House. That is all he wants and all he's ever wanted and he thinks Trump is a means to an end.

When he initially spoke out against him after the insurrection, you saw him dial it back. He had to go down to Mar-a-Lago. He knows that Trump is money maker and he's all -- all roads lead through Mar-a- Lago.

PHILLIP: So this is a sign that Republicans are more unified and heading to a majority, or are they split and divided and in a civil war, which is it?

ZANONE: That is a great question. Listen --

PHILLIP: Tell us the answer.

SHEAR: Neither.

ZANONA: I think it is a clear sign that they are pretty unified around Trump, right? This is a testament of where the Republican Party is now. And with Kevin McCarthy, I was getting questions, is he going to suffer any sort of internal consequences from his colleagues for pushing out Cheney?

The answer is, no, he might actually be more strengthened with his right flank and the Freedom Caucus, and Trump, they were really pushing him to oust Cheney and I think that really shows you where the Republican Party is right now, that they got rid of Cheney, and he's not going to suffer and they put Elise Stefanik in her place.

RAJU: It is just so interesting, the calculation, different between Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy on this. I mean, McConnell wants nothing to do with Trump, ignores Trump, refuses to even say his name unless he's absolutely forced to do so and doesn't believe that Trump is the way back to the majority. He believes that is unifying against the Biden agenda.

So we'll see how that ultimately plays out but clearly that's going to be an issue to deal with comes the midterm --

PHILLIP: I mean, McConnell wants to be credit by being anti-Trump by ignoring all of the madness but I think what Liz Cheney is doing is making that harder by saying you can't just ignore it. You have to say something about it. Otherwise, you're complicit in the problem.

But coming up next, a president with a short fuse and a penchant for detail is facing a trifecta of new challenges.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:32]

PHILLIP: A set of unexpected crisis are throwing the White House off message.

First, the conflict between Israel and Palestinians escalated this weekend. The president spoke with Israeli and Palestinian leaders yesterday expressing concern about the loss of life. And the Middle East is flaring up at the same time that the president is dealing with a gas crisis here in the U.S. caused by a cyberattack on a vital fuel pipeline. And if all of that isn't enough, there are new worries about inflation.

So, Michael, this White House has been laser focused on COVID since they took office, but now there are some other issues penetrating the American psyche. How is the White House dealing particularly on this Israeli and Palestinian issue with the push from, you know, people within his own party to be more involved in resolving this conflict and resolving this conflict?

SHEAR: So, I talked to a senior White House official a few days ago about this question of distraction and balance and how you balance all of the issues out and I think their view at the White House is that the mark of a disciplined successful White House is one that gets that balance right, that doesn't get distracted, doesn't let themselves get distracted by the sort of news of the day.

Yes, they know you need to deal with it. You know, the president is making remarks about the pipeline was an example of a recognition that they couldn't just ignore it completely.

But they don't want to be distracted and you could see that in Ron Klain, the chief of staff's Twitter feed. He's still laser focused on COVID and the implications from COVID and the economics. On Israel, they have to -- they understand that there is a

responsibility, that the United States has a historic responsibility to get involved in that crisis. But they also know they have limited options and that the moment of fighting is not the best time for the United States to sort of throw its weight around. So they're trying to balance it carefully. They're engaged they say privately but not so much publicly.

[08:29:41]

PHILLIP: But clearly the engagement has ratcheted up over the weekend and part of that is because of the push from some progressives, Bernie Sanders, people like Ilhan Omar. Senator Sanders writing in "The New York Times" that this is an opportunity for the United States to change its approach.

Democrats seem to be very upset that the Biden administration has effectively, in their view, the same policy that the Trump administration had before it when it comes to the Netanyahu --

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you've seen a really divide within the democratic party about how to deal with this. It has become more and more pronounced over the years and especially so amidst this conflict.

You know, Bernie sanders is not really the new guard but it is really a new guard versus old guard in a lot of ways. You mentioned people like Ilhan Omar and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And, you know, they're going up against the Israel hawks in their party, Chuck Schumer one of them a pretty important voice that has defended Israel for so many years. Bob Menendez, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

But it is so interesting to see the shift in the party, too. Look at what happened in New York last cycle when Eliot Engel who was the House Foreign Affairs chairman who was also a big defender of Israel. He lost to Jamaal Bowman who has come on down on the side of the progressives in his party. So this party is divided. It's shifting its approach but the White House is kind of caught in the middle of it.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean at same time that all this is happening, domestically here in the United States you have these really I think searing visuals. If you're of a certain age, particularly brings you back to -- I mean I think Republicans would love to bring people back to the Carter years.

But these gas lines, it's a psychological problem, maybe it is temporary, but for the American public, there is something psychological about hearing about inflation and seeing gas lines and literally going to the pump in certain southern states and not being able to get gas.

KUCINICH: Yes. And I think that is one of the reasons you had the executive order last week dealing with cybersecurity because obviously this was a breach and that is one of the reasons this problem started. But you know, every time there is a Democratic president, there are -- without this current crisis going on with gas prices, gas prices become an issue in the summertime. You could set your watch by it.

PHILLIP: Right.

KUCINICH: Whether this actually hurts them politically in the long run, I don't think we know the answer to that question yet. I think resolving this quickly, which is what the Biden administration is trying to do right now is probably a good idea. And a way to mitigate some of that -- some of the fallout. But what the long-term effect of this, I think that remains to be seen.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean gas prices, I think we can expect that this week that will resolve itself.

But the inflation issue is real if you look at the pricing of goods, it is going up. In small percentages, but it is significant. People feel it in their pocket books and Republicans not only want to use this as a political tool against the Biden administration.

But are they actually doing that or are they too busy dealing with their own internal political drama?

ZANONA: That is why they say they kicked out Liz Cheney so they can start focus on attacking the Biden administration. And look, they are starting to dig in with some of these attacks using the jobs report, using inflation and trying to argue that this approach that Democrats are advocating for is not the right approach.

But at same time there are bipartisan meetings going on on Capitol Hill for an infrastructure deal. Now, I do think Biden, by all accounts, really wants a deal with Republicans but I think these meetings are more geared toward Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin --

PHILLIP: Yes.

ZANONA: -- so that if a deal does fall through, it looks to them like Biden tried and couldn't get there, they might be more comfortable going down the reconciliation route which requires no Republican support but requires lockstep unity with Democrats.

PHILLIP: And at the end of the day, I mean given that Republicans just want to win. I mean do you think that a deal is likely or even, you know --

RAJU: You know, I think the deal Republicans are signaling that they do want a deal, but they're not there yet because there are so many details they have to work through. Namely how are you going to pay for even an $800 billion infrastructure package which is a lot of money.

$800 billion is still a fraction of what the Biden administration wants which is $2.3 trillion. So how they get to paying for that is going to be such a -- it's hard to see how that comes together.

But if it does, then the question will be what do they do with the rest of the package, because they could go, as Mel was saying, the reconciliation route which allows them to pass a bill without any Republican support in the Senate.

But you'll have to get the likes of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema and the progressives in the House who want to go much more -- much bolder than what the Republicans and the White House are talking about.

PHILLIP: And Michael, you have a fascinating story about how Joe Biden operates as president. We've now been in the Biden administration for a few months but you write here that Mr. Biden is gripped by a sense of urgency that leaves him prone to flares of impatience, according to numerous people who regularly interact with him.

The president has said he expects to run for a second term but aides say he understands the effect on his ability to advance his agenda if Republicans regain power in Congress next year.

So the urgency, the impatient and maybe even quick temper might be connected to this feeling that he has got to get stuff done and he cannot, you know, wait for folks in maybe in his orbit to not have things right the first time for him, right.

[08:35:00]

SHEAR: I think that is right. I mean we spent several weeks talking to people and I think there is, you know, kind of a private Joe Biden that we're not as familiar as we all are with the short of oh-shucks folksy Joe Biden sort of narrative that he has presented over all the years. And it is pretty intense.

And he, you know, deliberates for long periods of time, wants lots of input with people and he's pretty short with them if they, you know, what we were told is if they don't come back -- if they come back with vague talking points, if they come back with sort of overly detailed, lots of acronyms, he gets very impatient. And part of that impatience I think is this understanding that he knows fundamentally he only has a short period of time.

PHILLIP: Yes. And he wants to run for a second term. A lot of people assuming that Joe Biden is going to be a one-term president. But that is not the view inside the White House apparently.

Coming up next, fear and trolling on Capitol Hill. Has the people's house turned into a hostile workplace?

[08:35:59]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: This week Republican members of Congress shamelessly tried to paper over the January 6th insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): There have been things worse than people without any firearms coming into a building. REP. ANDREW CLYDE (R-GA); If you didn't know the TV footage was a

video from January 6, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: D.C. police officer Michael Fanone was nearly killed that day by a violent mob of Trump supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: Those are lies. And peddling that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is an assault on every officer that fought to defend the Capitol. It's disgraceful.

PTSD is very much like a roller coaster ride and some days, man, I'm just good to go and then other days or other times within the same day, I'm just broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: It is disgraceful, Manu.

RAJU: Yes.

PHILLIP: But this is what is -- it is like a cloud hanging over congress when there is this really incredible denialism happening on the Republican side.

RAJU: Yes. And it has created so much tension. I mean in the House particularly, the two sides are just -- there is such a divide between the two especially Democrats don't want to work with Republicans, some Democrats don't want to work with the Republicans who voted to overturn the elections in the aftermath of January 6. We saw that last week.

Madeline Dean, there was a bipartisan deal dealing with opioids and she didn't want the Republican who co-sponsor -- the co-sponsor the bill Buddy Carter because he voted to overturn the elections.

The tension is just something that I've really never seen before and it is really hanging over Congress. What will be interesting to see is how they progress with a bipartisan investigation into January 6.

There is a bill that's going to be on the house floor this week to create a commission. Who hasn't signed on that yet is Kevin McCarthy because he wants it to be a broader investigation to look at the Black Lives Matter and other issues so they can essentially suggest that this is a bigger issue than --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: You know Liz Cheney brought up the prospect that Kevin McCarthy himself could be called as a witness in a January 6 investigation. So what incentive does Kevin McCarthy have to sign off on this? And you know, putting that aside though, what can this January 6 commission accomplish when you have people out there who are literally saying don't believe what you saw yourself with your own eyes, that didn't even happen?

ZANONA: I mean, I also don't think it is a coincidence that we're hearing Republicans pick up with these denialisms. I think it is because Congress is moving closer towards this commission and it sounds like a prebuttal to me that they're trying to downplay it. They're trying to rewrite history.

It is infuriating if someone who was in the Capitol -- I know Manu was there too that day. You know, so many of us are still struggling with what happened that day. We have PTSD.

And so the Capitol Hill is really on edge right now. So when you have them -- Republicans out there denying these things, it really stirs those feelings back up again. I mean it's so close to the forefront already but that is also contributing to this --

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: And because they can't -- they don't want to -- they don't know how to talk about it. They don't know how to explain it without disparaging Trump who is the center by which their universe revolves.

ZANONE: Or their own culpability --

KUCINICH: Or their own culpability as well.

SHEAR: And Trump is stirring the pot, right. I mean, in other words, you could imagine a situation where all of this resolves itself, not resolves but sort of starts to heal, right, where people on both sides start to heal. But Trump continues to stir the pot --

RAJU: Yes.

SHEAR: -- every other day. I mean I know I do -- I'm sure you guys get the statements from him, you know, talking about the election being stolen and all of that.

RAJU: Yes. And that is the litmus test in the party right now --

SHEAR: Right.

RAJU: -- among getting Trump's support as whether or not the election was stolen or rigged somehow. And you ask members of the House that, they can't say definitively that there was nothing wrong with the election.

PHILLIP: Just listen to this explanation from Liz Cheney about why she believes some of her colleagues were not willing to vote for impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): If you look at the vote to impeach for example, you know, there were members who told me that they were afraid for their own security, afraid, you know, in some instances for their lives. And that tells you something about where we are as a country --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is terrifying.

CHENEY: -- if members of Congress aren't able to cast votes or feel that they can't because of their own security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: I mean she's saying that people are afraid of their own voters. But it's not just that. I mean you've Liz Cheney has to have security now. People like Adam Kinzinger, they've got to have security. There are other members who want security. The situation is -- it feels dangerous on the Hill.

KUCINICH: Well, didn't they change the rules so they could use part of their member allowance to hire security? I mean that is outrageous.

[08:44:58]

RAJU: Yes. I mean and it is the former president who is fanning a lot of these flames and one reason why is that -- not just personal security but their own political security, too.

And any -- you know, as I was suggesting earlier, this past week I went and I tried to ask a whole bunch of Republicans all across the spectrum from the most conservative to the most moderate whether or not the election was fair, whether or not Donald Trump was legitimately elected.

And even people like Claudia Tenney, who's a New York Republican won a swing district, one of the closest races in the country, she said to me we don't know if the election was stolen or not.

And that is essentially what most Republicans in the House echo. That is different than in the Senate. A lot of Republicans like in the Senate like Lisa Murkowski told me on Friday she is offended by the efforts to downplay what happened on January 6. So you're seeing different approaches by members in this body.

PHILLIP: Yes. But you also have in the House Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, literally being an abusive co-worker, accosting people -- accosting AOC in the hallway, you know, trying to get her to talk to her, whatever it is. And Kevin McCarthy is just sitting there and he's like oh, I didn't even see it. No worries.

ZANONA: Yes. McCarthy has made it clear he's not going to rein in Marjorie Taylor Greene. He's not going to get her in check. And for Democrats they have a problem too. They already took her committee assignments away. They don't have a whole lot they can do to punish her. I think Speaker Pelosi said maybe this is an issue for ethics to look into but, you know, it will take a two-thirds majority to expel her from Congress. So I think it is a huge problem for them having her running around the hallways --

SHEAR: I mean the interesting -- the interesting thing is the one person who's trying to stay above the fray of all of this is Joe Biden, right. I mean it was after all his election that was at issue as well and his whole -- their whole approach is let all of this play out. It can only inure to the benefit of the Democrats if the Republicans are seen as sort of, you know, going back and forth.

KUCINICH: But on the state level, there are several bills that have either been passed or they're trying to be passed to limit -- to curb who votes, to changing how you vote.

SHEAR: Right.

PHILLIP: Right.

KUCINICH: And that -- I mean to say that the elect wasn't stolen also would undermine those efforts that are going on in a lot of states in this country.

PHILLIP: There is no question that all of this adds up to the fringe increasingly becoming the mainstream of the Republican Party at the end of the day.

But coming up next, an associate of Congressman Matt Gaetz will plead guilty to federal crimes but what is he offering prosecutors in exchange?

[08:47:29]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Congressman Matt Gaetz may be feeling the pressure this weekend after a former associate struck a deal with federal prosecutors. Joel Greenberg plans to plead guilty tomorrow to six charges including sex trafficking of a child.

Now, Gaetz is not named in the filing and his spokesman says that the congressman, quote, "has never had sex with a minor and has never paid for sex". That is something that federal investigators are still looking into.

And when it comes to Matt Gaetz, Manu, what should his concern with that Greenberg is not only pleading guilty, but would only be doing that if there was something that he had to offer to prosecutors?

RAJU: Yes, I mean look, he is not named in this plea agreement, Matt Gaetz isn't, but he could potentially be one of the people that Greenberg is talking about, which obviously, is very problematic for Gaetz as we have seen these laundry list of things coming out in the press pointing out about all of these very serious allegations against him. You know, we'll see if it comes -- if he eventually gets indicted. He is denying, of course, he did anything wrong. But the challenge will be also not just the legal issue, which is very, very serious, but the political ones as well.

PHILLIP: Right.

RAJU: Once he is indicted, if he is indicted, then watch for a very quick effort to push him out of --

PHILLIP: Ok. You say that though. But ok, listen to how Matt Gaetz -- listen, this is really not even funny -- but listen to how Matt Gaetz is describing his own political troubles yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Just imagine the irony here. I am being falsely accused of exchanging money for naughty favors, yet Congress has reinstituted a process that legalizes the corrupt act of exchanging money for favors (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Excuse me? Naughty favors?

KUCINICH: I mean, that is a take for sure from Matt Gaetz. But I think one of the things that has been fascinating throughout this whole episode is how few people are coming to Matt Gaetz's aid here. No one is really defending him. They are letting him do a lot of the defending of himself. This is not someone who has a lot of allies. And I think there won't be really any love lost.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: but Republican leadership is not kicking him out yet.

KUCINICH: Unless he is indicted.

ZANONA: Yes. I think if he is indicted, it's going to be a huge problem for him. I think Kevin McCarthy is going to have to make a decision, especially coming on the heels of Liz Cheney's ouster, what does the Republican Party stand for?

They just kicked out Liz Cheney for going against Trump. But if they keep Matt Gaetz around who is indicted, I think that's a huge problem for them. I do suspect we'll see more resignation calls if he's in fact indicted.

PHILLIP: Well clearly, he is emboldened by this whole thing.

SHEAR: Yes. Well, he's emboldened and I mean look, the problem for the Republican Party is that they have an opportunity to go after Joe Biden on all sorts of things and at the moment they are in this sort of feeding frenzy among themselves.

And the party is, you know, has got its own challenges and they are not going to want that to continue and escalate with Matt Gaetz around if he is indicted. And I think that -- but you know, we've said that, we've had that kind of logic before and you just don't know whether at the end of the day the Republican Party finds a way to still keep him around.

(CROSSTALK)

[08:54L59]

RAJU: At the end of the day, its his decision about whether or not he is going to resign his seat.

PHILLIP: Which is an incredible thing to say given the allegations against him.

But that is it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. Join us back here every Sunday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern time and the weekday show as well at noon Eastern time.

Coming up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". And Dana is in the chair today.

Her guests included CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky and Maryland Governor Larry Hogan.

Thank you again for being with us this morning. Have a great rest of your day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Masks off. The CDC says it's ok to take off that mask if you're vaccinated.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: We can get back to some sense of normalcy.