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Inside Politics

High: Former WH Press Secy: Trump "Always Tore Everything Up"; Haberman Book: Trump Staff Sometimes Found Documents Flushed Down White House Toilets; Congress Opens Probe Into Records Taken From Trump White House; Sources: New Intel Suggests Russia Is Prepared To Launch Attack On Ukraine Before The Olympics End. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired February 11, 2022 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing your day with us. Last our, President Biden convenes a call with key allies. He cautions things could go crazy quickly. Those are the president's words in Ukraine. The secretary of state says Russia could invade at any time.

Plus, a big week of COVID change. For millions of Americans, mask mandates will soon end, and even as the president says it's probably too soon. And new reporting on the Democrats next move. There is consensus, the build back better plan is dead. Now the debate is which pieces of that plan just might, might have a chance to pass.

We begin the hour though, with the January 6 investigation and the breakneck pace of new developments. Today courtesy of The Washington Post, we learned some of the White House records Donald Trump took to Mar-a-Lago were clearly marked classified. That helps explain why the National Archives this week asked the Justice Department to determine if Trump broke the law.

We also learned this week the former president removed boxes of records from the West Wing, in some cases, trying to tear them to shreds. In others, new reporting sales, he flushed them down the toilet. The House Oversight Committee promises to investigate, and the January 6 committee has a keen interest too, as it looks for missing Trump phone logs and other records critical to its minute-by-minute timeline.

We start our conversation this hour with Maggie Haberman at The New York Times. She's also the author of an important forthcoming book Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America. Maggie grateful for your time today. There's a big picture issue here of another example of the Trump White House and the Trump as president going way outside the norms when it comes to records preservation, record sanctity. But the immediate issue is how much does this impact important investigations like the January 6 committee, right?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT THE NEW YORK TIMES: Right, John. And we don't know. I think it's important to make clear what we do know is that over many, many years, this president - there were people in his White House who tried to follow rules. There were people in his White House who tried to adhere to norms and standard practices and tried to get him to do that. He did his own thing.

My colleague, Annie Karni, while she was a Politico broke the story about the fact years ago that he was ripping up documents, and that was a, you know, a significant story. People would have to follow him around taping them back up. This has come up, as we know, as the January 6 committee is looking through pieces of paper and documents.

You know, we don't know exactly what was in these boxes that went to Mar-a-Lago, we are all trying to find out. We don't know whether this could have or not related to January 6, but I think that what has happened is, there is an effort to try to, you know, that there's been a bunch of new pieces of paper that have come out related to what was taking place in the efforts for Trump to stay in power. And so that has raised all kinds of questions, but we don't really have answers to those questions yet.

KING: Right. Again, you talk about sort of within the White House, some people trying to do it right. Some people led by the then president of United States doing it outside the doors. You share a nugget, it's in your reporting in that story in the newspaper today as well, from the important new book you're working on.

I want to just read this, while he was president, staff in the White House residents periodically discovered wads of printed paper clogging a toilet, leading them to believe that Mr. Trump had attempted to flush documents, according to people familiar with the situation. He was known to do the same on foreign trips, the people said. The question is, you know, and where does the reporting go? Is the president destroying things he doesn't want in the file? Or is he just mad and he's destroying what's in his hand?

HABERMAN: Right. And we just don't know, John. Again, I mean, the reporting that you just read, it is what is going to be in the book, you know, can't speak for every single foreign trip, but certainly some foreign trips that this happened on. So, it wasn't strictly staff in the White House who had this experience directly in the residence.

But we don't know this, not every single piece of paper is the same. Not every single piece of paper is something of consequence. It's always hard to tell with this former president, you know, why exactly he's doing, what he's doing. I think that the flip side of that is that what we saw on January 6 is that sometimes his motive doesn't actually matter, and you know, what exactly he was looking for.

He wanted to remain in power, and a bunch of people stormed the Capitol after that. And so, I think that that's part of why you can't just say, who knows what this means. It doesn't really matter, but we don't know what these documents were. We don't know what was being, you know, thrown in a toilet.

KING: But what we do know is more than a year after he left the White House, we're having a conversation we've had before in the sense that several different places congressional committees, the Justice Department, but the Justice Department looking at a potential criminal referral from the National Archives. Was this law breaking? What happened to the White House documents? The House Oversight Committee says, it wants to explore that very question, does it violate the Presidential Records Act?

[12:05:00]

And you're right, today with your colleagues about the January 6 committee, the committee was also subpoenaed telecommunications companies for the personal cellphone records of a range of people in Mr. Trump's inner circle. It is unknown whether the committee has specifically demanded records from Mr. Trump's personal cellphone.

So, that's another piece of this. They were so outside the norms that you're trying to piece together Donald Trump's Day on January 6, and you can't do it the traditional way because he would say, hey, Dan, give me your cellphone. Hey, Mark, let me make the call on your cellphone. That's frustrating.

HABERMAN: Yes. Look, I mean, he was - there are presidents who have periodically been known to grab somebody else's phone while they were talking and say something into it. But generally speaking, most presidents and you know, most presidents also existed in the pre cellphone age.

But since there have been cellphones, Donald Trump is the only president I know of who often used other people's phones to have conversations according to multiple aids, you know, that this has always been, for people who worked in the White House, they have often said, this was going to be a challenge for the committee in trying to get a full accounting of that day and his movements because this was just his practice.

KING: Maggie, before you go, I want to give you a chance. There are some people out there who see this detail released from your new book, about Trump flushing papers down the toilet. And they think, they they've essentially accused you of holding, withholding this information, holding this information for a book. Not true, please explain.

HABERMAN: Sure. And John, thank you for that. I appreciate it. Look, I mean, I understand there's a lot of confusion for folks about how these processes work. Why things go in a book or not in the newspaper, you know, right away to be clear, I did not know this was happening while he was president. I'm not known for sitting on scoops if I have information, number one.

Number two, I found this out in the course of reporting for the book, well after Trump had left the White House. I do have a new book, that book is not out for eight months. And so, I am trying to get this information out as fast as possible, because I think it's relevant. Do I know that it is particularly meaningful in terms of what pieces of paper ended up where, we do not?

I don't want to suggest that, you know, I know more than I do, right. But I did think this was relevant. And that's why now and that's how I acquire the information. I would not want someone thinking that I knew this in real time, because I didn't.

KING: This is an example here of you, following your reporting instincts and making public what you do know at a time that is could be a piece of relevant information, or not what some have suggested. Maggie Haberman, it's always grateful for your time and the important reporting. Thank you.

HABERMAN: Thank you, John.

KING: Thank you. With me in studio to share their reporting and their insights, Politico Laura Barron-Lopez, CNN's Manu Raju, and NPR is Ayesha Rascoe. Let's continue the conversation. Let's just look to the significance of this week. We just get dizzy with a number of developments, which are just some of the headlines. The Washington Post some Trump records taken to Mar-a-Lago, clearly marked as classified.

CNN White House records obtained, show no record of calls Trump in and out. National archives asked for Justice Department to look into. Giuliani asking a Michigan prosecutor, turn off your voting machines. The flush papers that I just talked about with Maggie. January 6 committee subpoenas one time Trump adviser Peter Navarro. A flurry of activity, the question is where does it lead us?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, this is going to be a fascinating report when the January 6 committee eventually releases its report. They may do an interim run before the elections happen, but they've probably tried to, of course, had to tried to finish it up by the end of the year. They have uncovered a lot of information. They've talked to hundreds of witnesses. They've gotten documents from everyone from Mark Meadows to other people in the White House.

And now we know that there are 15 boxes or so that were in Mar-a-Lago that Donald Trump took from the White House, potentially in violation of the Presidential Records Act, reporting suggests some of this is top secret information. Does that shed any light into what happened on January 6?

So, the question ultimately will be, what new information of course, they reveal and what gaps are there? Because even if they do try to subpoena Donald Trump's cellphone records, possibly Donald Trump is going to fight this, as he's known to do. And if he fights this, it could drag on in court, and perhaps it will still be gaps in information. But undoubtedly, there'll be also new information as well.

KING: There are a lot of smart lawyers, saying that it's really hard, really hard to prove Donald Trump broke the law or to prove the criminal intent of breaking the law. But beyond that, let the Justice Department look at what it looks like the House Oversight Committee.

Well, if you read this Washington Post reporting, even with documents marked classified found where they don't belong, prosecutors have a high legal bar to get to criminal charges. Prosecutors would have to prove someone intentionally mishandled material or was grossly negligent in doing so, which can be a steep hurdle in its own right. And Trump as president, could have unfettered latitude to declassify material, potentially raising even bigger challenges against him.

So, it is hard, although I was reading remarks, one of our producers for the interior from Jonathan Turley, an attorney who often defends Trump, or often, you know, it says liberals are overreacting saying, that if he took these with him, the second he's not president, he loses that privilege.

AYESHA RASCOE. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, NPR: Yes. I mean, I'm sure that you would have all sorts of arguments that, you know, Trump would come up with that maybe he declassified them before he left because that whole process of a president declassifying, he could verbally say, OK, well, I've declassified this, but it's going to be very complicated. And it seems like that happens over and over with Trump.

[12:10:00]

He walks this line where it's like, is that legal? I don't know. But it's the sort of things that are very hard to prove in court, like and people get frustrated. People are like, well how is he able to walk these lines and it seems like they're finding all this stuff, but he doesn't get in trouble, but it's because a lot of this stuff is norms. And its stuff that it's very difficult to prove in court. And so, that's why he, "can get away with things" that people feel like well, how's he doing that?

KING: How is he doing that? And why is he doing that? And the why is an important question. I put it to Maggie. Is he just angry at something? So, he rips up whatever he's holding at the moment? Or is he looking at something saying, I do not want this in a file that someone's going to find some day? So now, I'm going to rip it up, that we don't know. John Berman, on New Day this morning, tried to ask that question. Did ask that question of a White House insider.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is another example of a White House in an administration that just, we had no rules. We followed no rules.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY ANCHOR: Was it clear to you, why he was doing? Was it a nervous tic? Or was it because he wanted them out of circulation and destroyed?

GRISHAM: I don't know the answer to that. To be honest with you, I always thought it was a nervous tic. I mean, it was something he always tore everything up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Just that again, you know, the motive, the motive, we'll leave it to investigations to determine but he just tore everything up. We had no rules. We followed no rules.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT POLITICO: Yes. For those of us that we're here and covered the Trump administration, I mean, as I should said, there's no surprise, right. This president broke rules constantly. And so, but democracy and irony abounds, right? I mean, the entire 2016 election was about, whether or not Hillary Clinton, you know, didn't properly use her email or use personal email.

And we consistently find out that the former president of the United States, use his personal phone, use the personal phones of his staff, tore up documents, flush them down the toilet, took potentially really highly classified documents to Mar-a-Lago.

You know, there is a question about, did he has the power when he's currently president to declassify some of those documents? Did he do that before taking them? We don't know that. But still, it really looks like he violated the Presidential Records Act. But the big question is, yes, does he actually face any legal peril over it? And right now, it seems unlikely.

KING: Right, right. His conduct is the most important part of this, but to the hypocrisy part, she just raises. Liz Cheney says, we're going to have public hearings. You're going to see we're not on a vendetta, we're just going to lay out the facts. But to this idea of so many Republicans who think Hillary Clinton supposed to be in the middle of her life sentence now for the emails, you know, that's that they ran a campaign on that. Where are they?

RAJU: Look, I asked a bunch of Republicans about this yesterday, and not surprisingly, most of them downplayed it. One of them, Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri, said why aren't we investigating? What happened in Afghanistan? Why look at what happened with the former president.

But even the critics of Donald Trump, like Mitt Romney. When I asked him about it, he said, along the long list of Donald Trump's sins, this is the very bottom of the sin list. He pointed to other issues. Of course, Romney voted to convict Donald Trump twice in his impeachment trials. So, they're not so worked up, but Democrats in the Hill will try to investigate this.

KING: And we'll see those investigations go. Up next for us, President Biden talks with key European allies today. As the secretary of state says, Russian invasion of Ukraine could begin at any time.

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KING: Some new and urgent reporting, Justin to CNN on the situation in Ukraine. Multiple sources now telling our correspondents, the United States and its allies have new intelligence that indicates Russia may invade Ukraine before the end of the Winter Olympics. Let's get straight to CNN's Kylie Atwood, the State Department. Kylie, tell us more.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. U.S. officials and European officials are telling us that the United States and its allies have new intelligence that Russia could launch an attack on Ukraine before the end of the Olympics, the Olympics and February 20. And previously, the intelligence assessment suggested that that invasion wouldn't come until the Olympics were over. And this comes down as we have seen some urgency in the remarks coming out particularly from U.S. officials.

Secretary of State, Tony Blinken, said that Russian invasion into Ukraine could happen at any time. We have heard that from U.S. officials over the last few weeks. But he added to be clear that that includes during the Olympics. So, very explicit language from him there. And of course, President Biden is speaking today with his NATO and European allies.

Later today, National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, is expected to give an update at the White House. And we're also told that there is some of this intelligence that the administration is reviewing and thinking about declassifying to be made open to the public. John?

KING: Kylie, I would appreciate the breaking news. And let's get straight to the White House, and our chief correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, obviously, with this new intelligence, the president adds to the urgency of what was already very urgent phone call the president and the key NATO allies.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And so, this is a call that the president convened about an hour ago. It's a virtual call. There are several world leaders on here, about a dozen of them, of course, all of our allies in Europe, NATO allies, as well on this call with President Biden talking about what is happening right now.

And of course, now that we're hearing about this new intelligence, it makes those warnings coming from Secretary Blinken, overnight in Australia, make a lot more sense, because previously, the thinking had kind of been that maybe Russia would wait until the end of the Olympics, given they are being held in China to make any kind of moves here. Though, some officials even when those warnings were happening, and that kind of caution was happening.

We're saying we still aren't really sure because Putin is unpredictable. And we don't know for sure that he will wait until the Olympics are over. And now with this new intelligence, it shows that he could be readying to move before then. And so, these will all be questions for Jake Sullivan, who is President Biden's National Security Advisor, that's going to be joining the Press Secretary Jen Psaki at the briefing here in just a few hours.

[12:20:00]

And of course, the question is whether or not this threat level has changed? If now, they believe invasion is more likely than before because we had been in this pattern, John, where the administration was using words like imminent to describe an invasion, saying that it could happen at any time. They backed off that a little bit when there was some pushback from Ukrainian officials, who said the West was causing a panic by using terms like that.

But now you are seeing, these warnings ratchet up not just from the United States, but also from Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who yesterday was saying that we are in the most dangerous moment - most dangerous phase of this crisis, really with. The Pentagon saying that they are continuing to add troops on Ukraine's border.

And one other thing we should note is, with this reporting about the intelligence, you've really seen these governments be pretty forthcoming about what the intelligence is showing. Whether it's about the Russians trying to create a pretext for an invasion or putting in a pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. You've seen western governments be very forthcoming with this. And I do think that's telling of the level of concern that they have.

KING: Our part of a strategy to tell Putin, we're watching and try to discourage him. Kaitlan Collins, appreciate the live report. If we get any new details, important details from that call. Come on, back to us here. Up next for us, governors across the country easing mask mandates. The president of United States says, he thinks that might be too soon. We'll get the perspective of emergency room physician on the frontlines, next.

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[12:25:00]

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KING: Governors and mayors coast-to-coast moved this week to end mask mandate, some right away, some over the course of the next several weeks. Those steps get out ahead of current CDC guidance and out ahead of the president of the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LESTER HOLT, NBC ANCHOR: Are those governors wrong?

JOE BIDEN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: Well, it's hard to say whether they're wrong.

HOLT: Do you acknowledge though a restlessness and leaders bowing to the political winds?

BIDEN: Oh, I do. Omicron and the variant, all the variants have had a profound impact on the psyche of the American people. I think it's probably premature, but it's a tough call.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: To get some expertise and insights from a doctor on the frontlines. Dr. Ali Raja, the Executive Vice Chair of Emergency Medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital. Dr. Raja, it's great to see you, as always. But especially, as we have this debate, you've seen these governors and mayors moving and saying, OK, mask mandates end some over the course of the next few weeks, some right away. President says that seems to be probably too soon. He says, I'm just showing a map right now.

And the significance of all the white or gray, people are seeing at home is that all of the states that had indoor mask mandates, only three, plus the District of Columbia have not announced when they will lift. And so, most of America is now or will very soon be in a world where indoor mask states are thing of the past. Right call or too soon.

DR. ALI RAJA, EXEC. VICE CHAIR MASSACHUSETTS GENERAL HOSPITAL EMERGENCY MEDICINE DEPT: I think it's probably the right call, in terms of what we need to be doing over the next few weeks. I think it's probably too soon to be doing it now. But here's the thing, John, President Biden's point was really valid in that, this is so tough on the psyche of the American people, right?

My patients every day come to me and say, well, I'm hearing this from the federal health agencies. I'm hearing this from our local town health agency. I don't know what to do. And the confusion between what we're hearing on the federal level, and what states around the country are doing is just damaging to the trust and the psyche that the population has in our health officials.

KING: So, do you think the CDC needs to change its guidance?

DR. RAJA: I do. Here's the thing. The CDC has mentioned, Dr. Walensky has mentioned that they're looking at the parameters around which they make their masking recommendations, looking at them is important. But also, being transparent about what these parameters are, and how they're making these decisions is going to be key. Because right now, what we don't know is, we don't know exactly the data that they're going to be using. When they reanalyze, whether or not we should or shouldn't be wearing masks in indoor spaces.

And as long as they're transparent, as long as they're honest, and as long as they share that data, I think the public is going to get back to being confident in what they're saying. But right now, we've got the state saying one thing and the CDC saying they're looking at this again. And that's just not enough.

KING: Not enough, you say. Let's walk through some of the other statistics, and let's get it to where you live and work every day. This is Coronavirus cases in public schools among students, among students. And if you just see Massachusetts public schools among students, and you can see, you go back here at Christmas time, the change of the year. That's when we had our Omicron peak. A steady drop since.

We're looking now at much lower numbers. So, where you are in Boston right now, when you talk about kids in schools, is it time for them to take their masks off. Is that a week down the road or month down the road?

DR. RAJA: It's very soon, John. We actually are going to be doing that in just a couple of weeks at the end of this month. And that's because of the fact that we're looking at those cases coming down, just like you showed, but also that hospitalizations have really come down as well. And that's not true in the rest in all of the country, but many places in the country, the hospitalization rate is coming down. So, I really think that that's going to be the right call in just another week or too.

KING: And so, one of the reasons I'm grateful for your insights is because you know, the politicians can say this, doctors can say this, I can relay what agencies say. It's great to talk to someone who does it every day for a living. You just mentioned hospitalizations.

One year ago in Massachusetts, where you work, here it's just over 1,000 hospitalizations. Right now, we're back at about the same place, 1,093 as of yesterday in the state of Massachusetts. That's way down. Just a month ago, it was just shy of 3,000. So, in terms of your day- to-day experience, completely better or still some question marks out there?